Vanessa Vakharia: 0:02

Time flies, but we are back to work and have a lot of exciting stuff coming at your podcast feed in the coming months. If you need a little refresher, I'm your host, Vanessa Vakharia, a k a, The Math Guru. Season five won't be launching for a month or two, but I just had to bring you a portion of one of the interviews I just did, which you'll see was really special for me and very important for the guest. Stanford Professor Jo Boaler is basically my math hero. I referenced her all through my master's thesis in 2010, I think she's probably my most quoted source, and I've been trying to get her on my podcast forever, and she finally said yes, and I basically freaked out. However, our chat came at a tough time for her, as she's been under some renewed attacks by a small group who's been trying to discredit her academic work. Death threats, being called out on Fox News, and having her personal info tweeted out just for trying to modernize math education and make it more equitable. So we decided to share a small clip of her explaining what she's been up against and the motivations behind it, and we chat about academic bullying and online harassment. The story is truly infuriating and so upsetting, and I just wanted to do my small part to allow Jo's voice to be heard. So here it is, my conversation with Jo Boaler.

Jo Boaler: 1:11

I'm one of the writers of a new framework for the state of California, and it came from a 20 person committee who met for a year bringing in lots of research, things we know about maths, and the big ideas are, let's have more kids go to higher levels. Let's stop pushing kids out of maths at an early age, that's one of them. And why don't we bring data into maths so kids can have conversations with the real world, with data, and teach maths with big ideas. You would not believe the pushback that we're getting to these ideas, and the biggest pushback is we are trying to stop elementary school tracking. That's the biggest point of pushback. And the people who are pushing back, almost entirely, maybe completely entirely, are the people who have been very successful in maths. And what I see happening is, you know, they've worked, they've worked out how to be successful in this system, they know how to get their own children to be successful and grease their way to a nice college place. And here we are saying, let's make maths open to more kids. And they don't want it. Now, some people might say they want it and they don't think we are going about it the right way, but there's definitely a group of people who are basically opposed to the ideas of opening up maths to more students.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:36

This feels like the weirdest microcosm almost, even though it's not micro, like education is a huge thing, but of the entire pushback of every movement towards equity that's been happening since, right? And I wonder, I'm like, is this because we're so competitive, is that it? Is it because we think that if we let more people in, there won't be room?

Jo Boaler: 2:58

And you know, it only happens in maths. All of these things we are proposing are already in place in english, in history, in science, in every subject. But, calculus, you know, is regarded as the sort of holy grail of maths, a high course. It is the only one of 38 AP courses that you need to have taken math in middle school to get to it. The only one that functions in that way. So maths has this special place. It's been built to be a very hierarchical, exclusive subject where only some people can go forward, and there are people who don't want it any other way. So making change turns out to be a huge battle. And then the people who don't want the change are very wealthy people, so they are able to do things to stop the change, like get the media to run stories. So it's a real battle, particularly for people who are fighting for equity. I have a study actually, that I conducted 15 years ago now where maths teachers started teaching in the way I'm talking about. They didn't have barriers, all kids could go forward. They taught in this multi-dimensional way, amazing results. Many, many more of their kids were successful, inequities went away, black and brown kids did fantastically well. They hate this study. They hate it so much, that they have tried over the years, over and over again to try and say I made up the data, I've got to give them the data to show that I made up the data. They have just tried every way they can to attack it. And the study is in journals, they have contacted the journals to tell them to take down my papers. They are dead set to discredit that research, because you know what? They have this system that works and they say, well, only some kids are successful, that's just the way, you know, maths is hard, that's the way it is. But hey, somebody comes along and shows when we change the way we teach and group kids, turns out all sorts of kids are successful, and so that's a very threatening message.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:25

I like, can't react cause I'm so mad and I'm like, okay, I don't wanna like swear just excessively, but I'm like, angry in so many ways, like I'm having a weird reaction to it cuz I feel like personally attacked even though, but I'm thinking about all the, because like, I am such an activist in my life. I'm also in a rock band where the women, especially women of color, are a minority. And I've been fighting for that for so long and it's like, yeah, that pushback is real. The idea that like, there are literal gatekeepers that will keep you out of festivals, that will keep you out, like it feels at times, and I don't know if this is how you feel, but at times I'm like, no, I'm going for it, like I'm gonna fight this fight, like we need to do something about it. And at other times I feel so small because I'm just like, I mean that's so fatiguing that someone is literally trying to,

Jo Boaler: 6:05

It is really hard work.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:07

And are you

Jo Boaler: 6:08

It is fatiguing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:09

It is fatiguing, but you have to do it. But in terms of, and it's funny cause I was gonna bring this up in your book Limitless Mind, you're talking about the, again, that was published in 2013, I think.

Jo Boaler: 6:19

Limitless was published in 2019.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:22

Okay so four years ago you have people trying to take down your work and taking down this exact research, and let's fast forward to now.

Jo Boaler: 6:30

Oh, well that happened in 2012.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:32

Oh that's why I was thinking

Jo Boaler: 6:35

Yeah that happened longer ago.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:36

That's what I meant. Okay. So that reference to that was in 2012, so this is now a decade later.

Jo Boaler: 6:42

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:43

And what's going on?

Jo Boaler: 6:44

And they're still still going after the same study. And here's the thing, one of the ways they tried to block this research is they accused me of academic misconduct. That's a very serious charge, and Stanford had to investigate it by law. I give them all of my data, everything. They go through all the data and they said there is no charge to answer to here, this is impeccable data, we are ending this investigation. And they've written this up, they've sent it out, there was nothing here, we were forced to investigate this, but we investigated, it is all clear. Still, they're coming after me saying there's something wrong with that data, because you know, it really can't be that these kids who were from low income homes and black and brown could be really successful in maths, I mean, so inconceivable.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:36

Are you like, nervous something's gonna happen, or are you kind of like, no, these people are just fighting and like, I get so, I have such internalized fear of people in quote unquote power and of men in general

Jo Boaler: 7:49

Yeah. Yeah. No, I, these last six months have made me fear for my safety.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:55

Oh my God, that's, okay, that's disgusting.

Jo Boaler: 7:57

I, I've, I've had numerous death threats in the last six months.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:01

I'm so sorry.

Jo Boaler: 8:03

Yeah, it's, it's really awful.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:06

And I'm so sorry, over math education, like,

Jo Boaler: 8:08

Over, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:09

Okay, but you know what this shows okay, number one, it is now everyone who's listening right now's goal to stand up and take these other people, we've got you, okay, it's gonna happen. But what this actually goes to show, I'm, I'm not even articulating this properly cause I have so many thoughts, but it goes to show kind of what we were saying earlier, that there is something so gatekeepy and elitist about math and like my theory, I have no proof to this, but my theory is just like it has always been held up as the standard of intellegence.

Jo Boaler: 8:41

Yeah, that's part, definitely part of it. And it's really a golden ticket for people's lives. That's the other

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:47

Like moneywise?

Jo Boaler: 8:49

That, yeah, like it helps them get into colleges, it helps them, well, that's the biggest one.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:56

The biggest one.

Jo Boaler: 8:57

The, the college, it's like I call it, cultural capital. It's like a particular form of capital. It's very powerful capital. And so they don't care about history and they're not gonna go after art classes. They care about maths.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:10

About math. I often say, you know, everyone's always like, why math anxiety? Like why don't we have history anxiety? Like whatever. And I'm like, because deep down everyone, I like how you put it though, like cultural capital I think is probably the best synopsis, but it's like kids know, adults know, we all know deep down that math says something about you.

Jo Boaler: 9:29

Well, kids believe that. I try and challenge the idea that you are good at maths it's some special intelligence, so if you're not good at maths, then you haven't got intelligence. And I'm always saying to people, Hey, like, look at poets. How do, oh, stand up comedians stand up in front of a mic and just say all these super funny things off the top of the head. How is that not harder than math? It absolutely is, and lots of other things. I, I could list many things I find harder than maths.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:01

A hundred percent. And also it's so interesting because I always say this, I'm like, the reason I think math education or any, any human who has a role of like educating kids when it comes to math, why it's so important is the idea that you can't do math is often the first limiting belief a child will form ever. It's the first time they're taught like there's actually something on this planet that you were born that you can't do. And then it's like sets up scaffolding for a lifetime of limiting beliefs. And then we're in the self-help

Jo Boaler: 10:29

And then, you know, we help them with that belief by making maths be totally impenetrable from a young age by teaching them things in ways that kids don't understand. And so, yeah, you're absolutely right. That starts a belief and that probably does go wider. It's their first limiting belief.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:48

It's their first one.

Jo Boaler: 10:48

It probably goes all over the place.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:49

Yeah. And then the next thing you know, a guy dumps you and you're like, well, maybe I'm just not meant to be monogamous. Like I can't do it.

Jo Boaler: 10:56

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:58

So what do we do here? Like, I just am like There are so many pieces to the puzzle, but you're in such an incredible position where you are actually trying to rewrite statewide standards.

Jo Boaler: 11:09

Actually, we are not rewriting the

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:10

Okay? What's happening? Tell me, because

Jo Boaler: 11:11

but the it's a framework which talks about how to teach, how to teach, how to group kids. Um, so it's got lots of ideas about teaching in more exciting ways. It is bringing in more data, and talks about uplifting data and teaching a course in data science. But California is not able to change the standards at the moment, that has to be voted on. And other states are changing the standards, which is great, they're modernizing something that really needs modernizing, but we weren't able to do that. And if the framework causes this much controversy and pushback, I can't even imagine what trying to change standards will do.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:53

Can I ask like maybe such a trite question, but can we do anything to support you? Like is there a, what can we do?

Jo Boaler: 12:00

You know, there are some awful articles coming out and there's one that I know is coming out because a journalist is trying to, she's basically funneling the views of these men who say I don't use data well, and she's writing an article about it, and I'm very unhappy about that. So when that comes out, we should all contact the Chronicle of Higher Education and tell them what we think of it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:25

Cannot wait. And honestly, we just need someone to make a good TikTok. Like TikTok holds way more weight than

Jo Boaler: 12:31

you're right,

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:32

this paper, I'm sorry.

Jo Boaler: 12:33

I do think like, why is it that somebody is working to try and discredit me, why isn't a journalist looking at what is going on here? Who is trying to stop this framework, and why are they trying to stop it? Look at these people who are trying to stop it. They're all people who are very successful in math and most of the people who are actively trying to suppress me have their own products in direct instruction and time testing. So they

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:08

Oh my God.

Jo Boaler: 13:09

hate my messages. And so somebody should be looking into that. Stop trying to discredit me and look at who these people are who are trying to stop change because that is a story.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:20

That is a juicy story. That is a Netflix documentary. And, and this is making me think now too. I'm like, do we, so like we're talking about one journalist, we're talking about a group of people. Do you feel like you have a community of people that are doing the same work as you are doing? Are they being taken down in the same way?

Jo Boaler: 13:36

No, they're definitely, I mean, every mathematics educator I know in universities across the US and Canada and everywhere I know, they all are in agreement that we need these changes. It is not controversial. There is just a huge amount of research behind it. They pick on me for a couple of reasons. One is, I have this website, Youcubed, that millions of people come to, come and books, and they see me influencing teachers. So a lot of academics are doing the same work, but they're a little bit more under the radar. And then the other reason they come after me is I have actual research that shows when we use these approaches, more students are successful. Now there's been other research that confirms that. But again, well, and what's really triggered them and kicked them off again in the last couple of years is not only am I this person who stands up for equity in maths and tries to make maths a different experience, but now I'm writing a framework. So that's really upset them. These things have all come together to mean that I am in the, the, the crosshairs of their rifles right now.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:51

I feel like again, I've mentioned a million times how into celebrity gossip I am, but like this is something celebrities deal with all the time, right? It's like once you're in the public eye and doing all these good things, like there are inevitably going to be haters, there's going to be this

Jo Boaler: 15:04

Yeah, that's right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:05

Not that that makes it any easier or any more acceptable, but you know how Lady Gaga has her little monsters, like that's her, like every, I do feel like I'm 12 right now, but I feel like, I feel like we need you to have like your groupie, like do they have a name?

Jo Boaler: 15:22

Well, we have youcubeians. They call

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:24

Okay. This is very cool.

Jo Boaler: 15:26

but then, there's the Boalevers

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:28

Stop. That's the one. That's the one. We're Canadian. Okay, so we have the Beliebers. I'm dead. We're getting shirts. Okay. How do you spell that? Be? Yeah. Okay.

Jo Boaler: 15:40

So, so it's Boaler, like B O A L E, but with a V E R S on the end. Somebody turned up at a training I was giving, I think in New Mexico with those t-shirts on, saying I'm a Boalever. It's so great.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:53

I am dead. I am a million percent making a cute crop. This is actually, so for when this episode comes out. Okay, well no, but that's what we need. We need like a crew that is more powerful than these annoying people.

Jo Boaler: 16:05

And actually, you know these people who are trying to bring me down, they're 15 people, maybe 20, I don't know. And the people who know we need this change and support it are literally hundreds of thousands. But they don't know what's going on and they, these other people are working away every day to try and bring me down and use all of their money. Other things they do is they sue school districts when they don't do what they want them to. They have a lot of money to devote to their campaigns. So, it's crazy because there's so few of them yet they're making things really difficult for people.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:46

But this is how it always is with gatekeepers. It's like the clout, it's the power, it's the money, I mean, we've seen this in so many social movements. Like we can, you know, we just do what we do on the grassroots and, I feel like they're not on TikTok and I'm sorry, but we just know that that has the most social capital of all. We just need

Jo Boaler: 17:01

Yeah. No, I've been wondering. Maybe I need to start

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:04

A million percent. You need to start a TikTok.

Jo Boaler: 17:06

Maybe you can, you can help me with

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:08

Oh my God. It would be my absolute pride and joy. Okay. Okay, so we ended on a lighter note, but honestly, I'm so sad and angry for Jo. This is the kind of intimidation and harassment that so many change makers, and especially women in any industry face. I can't wait for you to hear the rest of our convo, but for now, if you'd like to learn more about Jo's story, check out the show notes for the post she just released this week on her Stanford site further detailing this ordeal. And also for a link to her project Youcubed, which provides educational resources for absolutely anyone and everyone I know she can use all the help she can get, so send her some support on Twitter. And yes, she did actually start a TikTok after the interview. Links to all of her social profiles are in the show notes. We're also working on another special episode to share with you soon about literally the most unforgettable pi day of my life. Stay tuned for that and get pumped for a new season of math therapy coming up soon. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, created by me and Sabina Wex, and produced and edited by David Kochberg. We're also introducing video content this year, so you'll be able to find full episodes on YouTube, and I'll be sharing clips on TikTok and Instagram. Links to all of those in the show notes too.