[00:00:00] Dan Meyer: There's so much math that students know before they ever go into a formal schooling environment. Like the ages zero to five, our kids are just soaked in numbers and patterns, and what we need to do as teachers is draw on that as a resource.

Show intro

[00:00:14] Vanessa Vakharia: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it.

Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.

Episode intro

[00:00:40] Vanessa Vakharia: All right kids, Math Therapy is back, baby. We are here for our fifth season, and you are in for a wild ride, so buckle up. Today I have none other than the real Dan Meyer himself, I don't know, not that there's a fake one, at least I don't think there is, but that's not the point.

Anyways, Dan Meyer went viral back in 2013 before being viral was even a thing for his Ted Talk. Math class needs a makeover, a sentiment that still rings true today. Dan is a math teacher, earned his doctorate from Stanford in math education, and is a director of research at Amplify, where he explores the future of math, tech, and learning. And guys, he's a straight up math celeb, even though he's too humble to admit it. 

Today, Dan is here to share some juicy thoughts on math education, explore what a makeover in math class might actually look like, and to let me read his birth chart. That last part was definitely, maybe a lie.

Dan's star sign

[00:01:28] Vanessa Vakharia: Dan!

[00:01:30] Dan Meyer: Whoa, we're here.

[00:01:31] Vanessa Vakharia: Dan, Dan, Ever since I failed to impress you, um, when we met the first time, by guessing your star sign incorrectly 11 times leaving only one correct answer, I've been dying to have you on the podcast.

[00:01:43] Dan Meyer: That's called the pigeon hole principle. Whoa. We're mathing already! That's awesome. 

[00:01:47] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. I can't wait to hear about it. But before I do, please for the record, what is your sign.

[00:01:52] Dan Meyer: Gemini, what, what'd you, what was your

[00:01:55] Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, are you a Gemini?

[00:01:56] Dan Meyer: Yeah. 

[00:01:57] Vanessa Vakharia: You're not fucking with me right now, you promise you're a Gemini?

[00:02:00] Dan Meyer: See if, if this whole thing is legit and you are, you know, an expert in it, like, shouldn't you know, I'm not messing around 

[00:02:07] Vanessa Vakharia: Well, know what's so weird? I, did I guess Virgo at first?

[00:02:10] Dan Meyer: I forget what you, it was, it was definitely incorrect. 

[00:02:12] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. But what's, what's so crazy is I'm also a Gemini, okay? And the thing is with Virgos and Geminis, they're the only two signs in the Zodiac ruled by Mercury. So if I guessed Virgo, I feel like I was maybe onto something. Who knows what I guessed, I bet I would've though, cause you seem very Virgo-esque. Okay, let's move on. 

[00:02:30] Dan Meyer: Fun fact, though, I, I am a twin though, and I understand that Gemini has a thing to do with being twins.

[00:02:35] Vanessa Vakharia: Absolutely. Oh my God. Well, the craziest thing is I obviously know you're a twin because I've done some serious stalking. I know. And that's gonna come up later in the interview. Everyone stay tuned. 

[00:02:46] Dan Meyer: How would you know this? 

[00:02:47] Vanessa Vakharia: But the thing is, it is Gemini is,

[00:02:50] Dan Meyer: Terrifying. Watch out folks. This could go to some weird places.

Do Dan and Vanessa have beef?

[00:02:53] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, listen, here's how I wanna start to be honest. Okay, this is how I wanna start. This is how we are starting. We've already started. Let's not like boost you too much, but you are kind of like a celeb in the math world. TBH I don't really know what for, right? Like I've always been like, yeah, Dan Meyer, Dan Meyer.

Then when we met I was like, ugh, I don't understand this guy's sass and why we already have beef and what the beef is even about. 

[00:03:16] Dan Meyer: The beef got going fast.

[00:03:17] Vanessa Vakharia: But why? I feel like you were like, oh, I read the description of your talk Math Therapy, and I was like, no, thanks.

[00:03:23] Dan Meyer: Whoa. I would have had much more tact than that 

[00:03:27] Vanessa Vakharia: I don't, what, 

[00:03:28] Dan Meyer: saying something that was equivalent to that 

[00:03:31] Vanessa Vakharia: But what did you say? What was the vibe? It was something like, you were like, fine, you know what, no, I don't wanna get you canceled. He didn't say that. But what you did say was something like, ugh. 

[00:03:39] Dan Meyer: Was it hurtful? 

[00:03:40] Vanessa Vakharia: It wasn't like hurtful. It just like,

[00:03:42] Dan Meyer: Honestly, conferences are hard for, I'm a big introvert putting on a big show of being an extrovert, and conferences, I, I can, you know, at the end of the day it was the end of the day,

[00:03:50] Vanessa Vakharia: I get, I get. But I obviously like you, it wasn't like beef, like we were in a fight. I was like, oh, like obviously we further 

[00:03:56] Dan Meyer: Fun beef. 

[00:03:56] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah. Fun beef. 

Did you have a thought about the concept of math therapy? That's what I actually want to know.

[00:04:01] Dan Meyer: I had so many more questions than opinions, and I, you know, hope to get them answered on the show here and give you opportunities to share, you know, with your listeners what you're about, while sharing with me what you're about. But, um, yeah, I, don't know, it's, I have benefited a lot from therapy personally, and I also like, I find myself really focused on, like, what is it about how math is constructed that leads people to hate it, not what do we do with people once they hate it? 

So like I, I find mindfulness and various exercises in that space really helpful personally, but like, I don't want to ignore the fact that how life is constructed where I live in the Bay Area and more broadly makes people crazy, like makes people stressed and miserable and leads to the need for what we might call, you know, therapy in real life.

And the same is true for math therapy. So I find myself very interested as a curriculum designer, as a teacher, professional developer, and working on the not needing math therapy part. Like not, not leading people to feel traumatized in a way that they, where they need math therapy basically. I think it might have been some of the vibe that you're picking up on, but, yeah, respect therapists and, uh, all their work, including your own.

[00:05:13] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. I am not a certified therapist. Everyone should know that. 

I actually love what you just said. I didn't think I was gonna love what you just said, but as you were saying it, I was like, okay, this is actually very eye-opening. And I guess part of math therapy, cause it's just whatever, it's a term I made up, the idea is yes, unfortunately, whether we like it or not, we do live in an environment and we raise kids in an environment where they are traumatized by math. So whether we, of course the goal is to never have that happen, but they are. So we do have to provide some sort of something to help them out of that or to help them manage that.

But part of math therapy is to avoid re-traumatizing kids or to avoid traumatizing them in the first place. And that, that's what your thing is all about. You're the initial, you're the first math celeb, aren't you? I feel like you're the first person 

[00:05:55] Dan Meyer: False. 

[00:05:56] Vanessa Vakharia: No, are you? Or maybe not math celeb, but I, when I think about you and when I actually did do some research, I feel like you were the one who actually started math class needing a makeover and this idea of avoiding traumatizing kids in the first place. Do you think that, am I wrong?

[00:06:10] Dan Meyer: No, here's, here's some, here's some relevant background. It's just that I got my break when the Common Core hit in 2010 in the US, this new way of looking at this, the actual math knowledge and the way we do math. And I came along with this talk I gave, for the TED group. 

And it was just, it was synchronicity. I don't wanna deny that, like I've worked on various aspects of my craft of like public speaking, of writing, of teaching that have been helpful for people in some ways and get me some notoriety. But there was a lot of, you know, good chance involved there. 

I would say that like, I came also along at a time when like blogging and writing online was novel. Now everyone shares everything online, but at the time, like I was sharing like failures from the classroom yesterday, you know, on a public website and saying, help me get better at this. And that was also something that was new to folks and has put me in a spot where I get to do more of that. 

And I'm very, very grateful that I've had the experiences I've had. I feel very lucky. Math celeb is the sort of thing you don't like put on a business card or brag about to your family. They'll put you in your place real fast if you're like, Hey, I'm not doing the dishes at Thanksgiving, you know, I'm a math celeb, oh no, oh no.

[00:07:17] Vanessa Vakharia: But I actually think, so, I mean, I, I know you don't know anything about me, but my master's thesis was called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math, and I, my big thing, I'm very bent on the media, media representations of math, but also like, I actually don't say that lightly. I think math celebs should be more of a thing because I think mathematicians and educators really should have the same weight and same quality that celebrities have because they should be and are influential in the same way. But like, whatever, we don't need to get into that now, but okay. 

Welcome to Dan's TED Talk

[00:07:46] Vanessa Vakharia: Your TED talk was called Math Class Needs a Makeover, and I wanna know what you meant then versus, or if it's even changed what you would mean by that same statement now.

[00:07:55] Dan Meyer: Yeah. Great. Uh, appreciate the opportunity to have a second crack at that one. What was that, 2010, I think years ago. 2013. I have not watched it since, I don't think, because it got gazillions of views on YouTube and I get a little scared thinking about how much that's been viewed and, but like, when I have thought back to it, a few things hold up, a few things don't. 

I think there's a big emphasis on media, on how at that time, it became easier and easier to put like, images and movies in classes. You didn't have to like roll out the film reel or wheel in the big TV on the cart or whatever. It was like, it was like, Hey, I did some math yesterday in the world and I can bring that world into the classroom so that you can participate in that math.

I was in the world wondering which grocery store line would be fastest. And I did some math thinking about that. And I can like bring a picture of the two lines in and share it with you. And you can experience math in a way that is not pre-digested, that is not like, here's the relevant info, here's the formula in which you'll put that info and here's the box for your answer.

And so that was very novel back then. And I think that since then I've been trying to figure out like, so what is, what is, math does not lend itself to images and movies. Like not all math can be or should be, based on an image from the world out there. 

So what is the thing that was in that experience for me that is common across all math and I've learned that it is, everyone's got intuitions about whatever math they're learning. Everyone's got some knowledge that's spatial, that's based on guesswork, or their innate powers to pattern sense, and that math classes don't use that. 

Math classes often ask students to, write down the final result of someone else's mathematizing, of this early stuff, but don't ask, invite students to share, how would you describe the pattern you're seeing? How would you describe this shape? How are these shapes different? And then, you know, build off of that to share some common math knowledge. That's what's been happening since then, working with student intuition about whatever math they're about to learn.

[00:09:56] Vanessa Vakharia: I'm now remembering because I have a very clearly short memory. Cause I was like, oh yeah, that is what your talk was about, how that has changed in a way, but in a way is staying the same. I've actually heard some people say we focus too much now on technology. Like we're kind of too like, oh my God, videos, games, la la la la, and we should more be getting at exactly what you're saying. The point of that technology is to allow real-time math and kids to really actually participate in the act of doing math. Is that kind of it, do you think?

[00:10:23] Dan Meyer: Yeah, I mean that's, participate in doing math, not just repeating someone else's historical doing of math is huge for me. And now how technology fits into that is, I think a, a second question, but that's like principle number one. Higher, higher order principle is to understand that, like babies, there are studies where like babies can identify quantities that are different.

There's so much math that we, that students know before they ever go into a formal schooling environment. Like the ages zero to five, students are, our kids are just soaked in numbers and patterns, and shapes. And what we need to do as teachers is to draw on that as a resource, so that learning is more effective and that students feel seen for their value, which let's be real, you would know as a math the, as a licensed math therapist, um, more than anybody, that students don't often see, feel seen for their value, mathematically in math class.

[00:11:14] Vanessa Vakharia: Well, and I'm wondering if this perhaps ties into how we started this with that idea of like, how do we avoid traumatizing kids in math class in the first place?

[00:11:23] Dan Meyer: Yeah, exactly. So as a curriculum designer, what I start to think about is given a math topic, given the destination, what are early ways that students can, students know about it? So I dunno what that looks like for a given math topic, but like, if I'm thinking about like solving equations, students know about balance, how to keep things in balance or out of balance, they know, cause and effect, and these are all ways that we can bring students and their resources into their, their own learning to make it more effective, more socially meaningful for them.

[00:11:50] Vanessa Vakharia: So do you think this kind of, like I've been thinking a lot lately about how when we define what being good at math is, it leaves out so many students and I think that actually causes part of the trauma. So for example, being like, okay, being good at math means you're fast. It means you can memorize stuff, it means you do mental math. So in a way you're kind of just like, I don't wanna put words in your mouth as much as I already have five times, but like, are you kind of like, if we can broaden that definition of what being good at math means, we're valuing more ways of being good at math, which, you know, are very genuine ways.

[00:12:22] Dan Meyer: Yeah, definitely. And this is also part of the like weirdly ideological project of math ed reform, where it's like, how do you, how do we define what good at math is? It's not like that's a, like an objective truth, like how two plus two is four under some number systems or whatever. Like there are objective truths in math and this is not one of them, but I, I think that we should, for instance, look at the humanities and what makes those, uh, why humanities therapy, why that's a little bit less identifiable as a need. You know, like, why, why is that not a thing that we see at NCTE's national convention, is the English therapist or whatever. 

So part of that is saying like, yeah, math class has been set up in lots of ways where being good at it means calculating quickly, accurately, correctly and precisely. And instead to say, well, what if it means, you know, predicting, an answer before calculating it or, using the words you brought to class to describe a pattern or a set of shapes before learning what the actual definition is.

Even naming a wrong answer has been so valuable for students that I taught back when. Like, I'd have students where I'm like, Hey, give your best prediction of what the answer is for how many, you know, marbles are in that cylindrical, jar. Right. And they wouldn't do it because they had internalized this idea that you've gotta be, quick and correct. And even though I said like, just, just a guess, it wouldn't work. They would not wanna do it. 

But if I said, okay, just tell me a wrong answer, tell me an answer that is too high 

[00:13:40] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, I love this. I really like that.

[00:13:44] Dan Meyer: Just to watch a student who's like, oh, you know, okay, wrong answers. Like, I got that. I can, I can, but to help them see value, there is mathematical value in naming an answer you know to be wrong.

[00:13:55] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, wait, why do you think there isn't stuff like, I'm always like, when you say the word math, someone has like a visceral reaction, right? Like, I think like a trauma response. They're like, oh my god, math, I hate it. Like, oh, you're like, oh my God, you need math therapy. If you ask someone like, blah, blah, blah, history class, they might be like, oh yeah, like, I never really liked history, but they don't have that same reaction. And you, you kind of hit on that when you like, you're like, yeah, why isn't there as much of a need as like humanity therapies?

Why do you think they're, oh my God. I'm not even saying, I don't even think I said a word right in that sentence, but you know what I said, right?

[00:14:25] Dan Meyer: I am tracking. I'm tracking. What's the difference between humanities and math in this way?

[00:14:28] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, like why is math anxiety an actual diagnosable thing now? You know what I mean? Like doctors know about it, psychologists know about it, but like if you were like, I have history anxiety, they'd be like, oh, I've never

[00:14:40] Dan Meyer: I don't feel like it's in like the DSM, uh, you know, like 

[00:14:44] Vanessa Vakharia: Fine, but you know what I mean. 

[00:14:45] Dan Meyer: The, there are, there are surveys uh, for it in ways I'm not sure that there are for like science or history anxiety, so point taken. Um yeah. 

No, check this out. Like here's a fun one is to, like, if you go to Google and you search for things, it'll tell you how many results there are, right? It'll tell you like how many results of that thing there are on the internet. So I, I went and I like searched for, in quotes, "why am I bad at", and then like I entered in different subjects. And you would be, I don't know if you would or wouldn't be, I was very surprised at, not which one had the most results, it was math, but that other subjects had almost no footprint, as, I mean, it was, it was like three orders of magnitude higher. It was something like hundreds of thousands versus like 10, for science, for history, for English. It was wild. 

And so anyway, that's just like one example of this. But the reason why I think is, for me, my idea is that those subjects make room for the knowledge that students have when they walk in the door. Before the teacher has said anything about the theme of a novel or how to write a persuasive essay, or you know, why two different countries are fighting, before the teacher said anything, students are presumed more than in math to have some game, to have some knowledge, to have something to bring to the table. 

It's presumed that in science you can show a kid stuff getting mixed, and these ones blew up and these ones didn't. And the student might have an idea about that. Like it's presumed that students can like, have ways of making sense that aren't related to the teacher's ideas. But in math class there's a thought that your value as a student, like what could you possibly know about this? Like, you know this is tough stuff. You've gotta listen to me tell you what I know, and your value is whether you can repeat that back to me in ways I understand.

Is there a math gene?

[00:16:30] Vanessa Vakharia: I, I, I'm having goo like, physical goosebumps. Like this is, I, this is really eye-opening. I think that's, and actually like, I'm also just so excited about my next question that I feel like I'm gonna throw up. Like, cause you know, it just is that this full circle moment is so good.

I'm wondering if part of this actually has to do with what you said earlier about how defining, like I'm just thinking about the Google searches, right? And how you're like, yeah, people literally being like, why am I bad at math. If someone is typing that in, that presumes that they have an idea of what being good at math means, but yet, as you said earlier, like that's actually a very hard thing to define. 

Now wait for this. Are you ready for what I'm about to fucking say? 

[00:17:11] Dan Meyer: I'm guessing I'm not ready. 

[00:17:13] Vanessa Vakharia: This is gonna tie right in. Oh my. Speaking of being a Gemini and being a twin. This, no, I promise you, no, you're gonna like it. I read an article last week that pissed me off beyond belief. 

So it was some study in China and it said something of the sort of, math ability might be genetic. And this study went on and it was basically a study with a thousand kids, I believe they were in kindergarten, don't quote me on that, they were younger kids at a particular, in a particular region. And how they defined math ability was like, oh, we're looking at different parts of the brain that you know, how to add and how to subtract, it was more about computation, like certain types of operations and, and the takeaway was, our ability to be good at math might be genetic. 

And that was what the first thing I stopped to think was, wait a second, how are we defining what it means to be good at math? Is it subtracting versus multiplying? And then this made me think about you as a twin, honestly, because if we think about it, I know. Oh my God, your eyes are so wide right now. How I'm just

[00:18:12] Dan Meyer: I am just trying to track. I'm just trying to

[00:18:14] Vanessa Vakharia: I, I get it. I get it. But it's like, this whole thing made me think about it, this idea of math ability being genetic. Because then I had this side question about being like, oh my God, does your twin like math? That's just, I guess a side tangent, maybe it doesn't even tie in here, but the idea of like math ability. How are we defining what it means to be good at math in the first place. 

And now you're right, I can't even track, I don't even know what my question is, but just answer it. 

[00:18:34] Dan Meyer: Your brain is such an exciting place. Yeah. This is a 

[00:18:36] Vanessa Vakharia: It's cause we're, it's cause we're both geminis. You get it?

[00:18:39] Dan Meyer: It's been, we've been on a real journey here. 

[00:18:41] Vanessa Vakharia: You know what I'm saying, right? Like, just answer something in that realm.

[00:18:44] Dan Meyer: Answer something, uh, yeah. Like, I'm not a, I'm, I'm not a geneticist. I don't like, I don't know, like, I don't think our project depends on math being completely nurtured versus natured. Like whatever your nat, if there is a genetic component to being good at math, and I'm not sure, we still have work to do as teachers to make sure every student can reach beyond where they currently are. And that's where I want to focus, is the environments we create for students to learn lots of math.

I do think, like, my twin is instructive, she's relevant here. She learned very early on, she was told very early on that math was not for girls or not for her anyway. Like it wasn't, and it wasn't like explicitly said, uh, but somehow she got the idea like math was not for her, and she had some really good teachers in public school and high school at Ukiah, California, go Wildcats, that like really did a lot to convince her, nah, math is for you, you are for math.

But anyway, she did the creative arts major thing. And like we were on very divergent paths like, humanities and math, and we both have kind of like determined that we had more in common than we had, different in that way. But yeah, she's, she had to do a lot of math therapy, for herself. She's a ER doctor now and she's got math game now. Like she knows, she knows her stuff.

[00:19:50] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God. I should have her on the podcast. That sounds like a wild story.

[00:19:53] Dan Meyer: No. She always upstages me. She's so cool. She is, she's extremely cool. 

[00:19:57] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. Okay. But I now know the, remember the why, first of all, thank you, that was actually very informative, but now I remember what I was thinking is, do you think that part of the reason the math therapy thing, and the Googling "why am I bad at", is because we actually have this idea that math ability is genetic.

[00:20:15] Dan Meyer: No, I don't, don't think that's it. I don't think, I think there's more to it, like, mean, it's a part of it. I shouldn't say no, so, it's multifaceted, that's certainly a part of it. Here's the thing, is that like, schools drive so much less of society than a lot of people wanna believe, including and especially teachers. Schools are downstream from so much, by which I mean like, politics, economics, religion, all that. And so whenever I see like a, some kind of like affliction, some kind of like terrible thing happening in a school, my question is like, how have the grownups constructed society that has led to that?

So we have, we have set up schools as a sorting mechanism to help people, to help funnel people into their places in the economy of capitalism. There are a small number of spots available for bosses and landowners and, and the owner class. And then there's a need for a lot of workers who know how to like, respond to a bell, listen to instructions, and know their place.

And that to me is where a lot of this comes from, is that math is a very useful marker. And it's been turned into a useful marker for telling people their place. Which means that there's a lot of energy that is manifested in like marketing and like how math is perceived in pop culture. There's a lot of of money and energy behind using math to impose a, a position on people in their future jobs.

[00:21:32] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, it's so, no, I'm just like, oh my God, I didn't think we'd have this much in common, to be honest. Know what I mean? Like I didn't think it was gonna go this way, but I'm like, oh my God, everything you're saying, yes. This is actually like my whole thing. This is what I'm so obsessed with, this is what I wrote my whole thesis on, this is what I'm always saying, but I just didn't think you'd be like of the same mindset for some reason. But you're, and also you're obviously way better at articulating it than me because you're like a different kind of Gemini. I'd have to look at your entire chart, but I'm very like scattered as you know, so like I am an outer processor. 

Yeah. Anyways, 

[00:22:03] Dan Meyer: Tell me about me though sometime. I wanna, I wanna get, get the reading, you

[00:22:05] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God, I'd be happy.

[00:22:06] Dan Meyer: You, off the air. Off the air. It might be, it might be too much to, to

[00:22:11] Vanessa Vakharia: It would be, but I think you'd be excited to know that actually back in the day, the only people who were allowed to be astrologers were mathematicians, cause the entire birth chart is a wheel of 360 degrees divided in 12 into 30 degree houses, and the entire way the planets interact is based on angles. And so you had to be a mathematician to cast a chart. Now there are apps for that obviously, so anyone can do it and it's not taken as seriously. Great. Let's move on. 

Teaching math as an act of protest

[00:22:31] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. I love all of this. I think it's so crazy and I think, I mean, I couldn't agree more, but I also am like, how are we not waking the fuck up? The way you, you said, basically the hierarchy of what we need from a classroom, yes, I understand that back in the day, I'm using air quotes, we needed a lot of people who could answer the bell. as you put it, right, that could, you know, join an assembly line that could follow rules.

But I feel like now it's so abundantly clear that our really big problems in the world cannot be solved that way, and we need more people and more diversity of thought. Don't you think we need to like catch up to math class switching gears to be like, oh, let's develop the actual critical thinking skills, let's welcome more people into the fold who can think in ways that mathematicians haven't been able to?

[00:23:14] Dan Meyer: Absolutely yes, and as like a personal act of protest, one that is shared by lots of math educators, I think that's exactly what, what is needed is to resist what is imposed on us through just the air, the vibes of our political economy to sort kids. 

Like we have some agency to say, nah, I'm gonna build different activities, I'm gonna do different kinds of pedagogies, I'm gonna have different posters on the wall. Like, a full court press on this idea that math is only for some kids and not for others. We can do that, but I, I don't want to overestimate the impact of those efforts. 

School has, has been around for in the, in the North America for a couple hundred years, it's a young thing really. And it was at every step of it, stage of its development, from like the everyone in one schoolhouse to different grades, like all of these decisions were made and informed by the needs of the bosses of workplaces. 

And so, like, I also feel very excited and I feel like I, we need to focus on how to change the environment that surrounds school, and not assume that our efforts in the classroom, all of which are important acts of protest, that they will have enduring effects. Like our kids will go to other classes with teachers who have different convictions, and they'll be influenced in different ways. It can't be up to the individuals in the school to make the kind of changes, it won't, it won't last, basically, is what I'm, what I'm concerned about.

[00:24:42] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. But I love how you just talked about like the act of educating in a classroom as an act of protest. That's badass.

[00:24:50] Dan Meyer: Uh, did you folks, just a question for the listeners. I'm, you know, Vanessa's not the only person doing some, doing some research on, on things. Did y'all know that Vanessa's like a rockstar?

[00:25:02] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god, Dan!

[00:25:03] Dan Meyer: Isn't that wild? Like what is the, like what is the, rockstar to math teacher, to math therapist pipeline? Like how many people are there in that? Do you like have like a get together with like, like two people total worldwide? You know, like 

[00:25:17] Vanessa Vakharia: You should have me on your pod. 

[00:25:19] Dan Meyer: What is the, what is the, if you had to ask me what is like the least punk rock subject for an ex-rocker to teach or get involved with, I would answer math before you even finished the question. What is, what is going on?

[00:25:32] Vanessa Vakharia: Wait, why are you, why are you doing this though? Do you wanna stop talking about what we were talking about, or are you just trying to show that you know something about me?

[00:25:40] Dan Meyer: I think it's relevant! You said, you said, you said the protest thing and I'm like, I, protest, I get, I get why you might vibe to that, being like, you know, a rock a, a rock, a rock artist.

[00:25:49] Vanessa Vakharia: Well, I, I am 

[00:25:51] Dan Meyer: A rock and roller. 

[00:25:52] Vanessa Vakharia: I'm very flattered that you know literally anything about me. But, but actually this is completely relevant because what I was going to say, I wasn't going to talk about myself as much as I wanted to, is, this is what I always say too. Like, I love the idea of educating as an act of protest, but I'm also, as you're saying this, I'm like, perhaps, I'm saying that's all it can be and that's what it can be in the same sentence. Like it's so grand, but it's also so small in the scheme of, exactly, we are just like a little microcosm of society in a classroom. 

And which is why literally, I've been petitioning Netflix to gimme a fucking math show forever, and I spent most of my days calling out media stereotypes when it comes to math, calling out advertisements and calling out all of the stuff that I actually think, maybe it's cause I am legit forever 21, but I really see media as the biggest influence. I know for me growing up it was the biggest influence. I know what my students are doing. I know they're just watching the Kardashians. I feel very frustrated, and I think it's important for educators to know that that's what we're fighting.

[00:26:48] Dan Meyer: And on every front. Yeah. This sense that you, you have a certain, destiny and a certain role and, I would invite us all to think about the, like what, how teachers are depicted in popular media. What are, what are the most popular depictions of,of math teachers even, and why are they depicted that way?

And like you look at, you know, teachers like Jaime Escalante in Stand and Deliver, for instance. And not to diminish that accomplishment at all, what I remember of watching that, as a new teacher, is that he had a heart attack and fell down the stairs, in his efforts to help students more. 

That's what society wants from teachers. I mean, we talked about what, you know, what is demanded of students to be a part of our political economy. For teachers, the world wants teachers to take on the burden of fixing all the stuff.

[00:27:32] Vanessa Vakharia: Wow. Wow, wow, wow. Fucking wow. It's so true. It's so true. I actually saw, I don't, have you seen this guy? I saw this guy do this talk at some conference and it was, his whole talk was representations of teachers in the media. Do you know who I'm talking about? The point is, I mean, you could say

[00:27:49] Dan Meyer: There's a great paper, there's a great paper of some dude, I don't know if this is the same 

[00:27:52] Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe it's the same, 

[00:27:53] Dan Meyer: Some, some person, St. Mary's University, let's put it in the show notes, wrote a, wrote a, like really fantastic analysis of, like he has one that he likes, one teacher in media that he likes, which is from the movie called Cheaters, that's what, got Jeff Daniels in it. And, uh, a really solid rundown of the differences of how teachers are, are depicted with suburban schools versus urban schools. And, I think that teaching should be easier with less weight put on it by society to fix the students, you know, mental health, physical health, you know, their learning, their, their nutrition. Like we just

[00:28:24] Vanessa Vakharia: It's so true. Oh my God.

[00:28:26] Dan Meyer: Uh, now we're getting to like a little, little bit why, like math therapy for me, like, yes, and. You know, like I am, I'm excited about it. And I wish it were not a thing I wish we had done things so that you know, it was not as necessary as it is.

[00:28:40] Vanessa Vakharia: I totally get that. I mean, but I guess you could say that about like all of therapy in general.

[00:28:44] Dan Meyer: I mean, not, not all, but yeah. A a lot of, a lot of that

[00:28:47] Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, it would be great if we weren't ever traumatized ever, in general life. Forget the classroom. Right. It would be great if all like, but 

[00:28:55] Dan Meyer: There are, there are countries that are happier than, than we are, right there. 

[00:28:58] Vanessa Vakharia: Blue Zones, my God.

[00:29:00] Dan Meyer: There are places that are happier than we are, and that's not luck or chance or genetics. It's just like how laws are set up and how the economy runs and what are the guarantees of being a citizen, being a person.

[00:29:12] Vanessa Vakharia: So why haven't you moved to any of them? Like, I'm always like, I wanna visit the blue zones. Right? That's what they are. You know the, what

[00:29:17] Dan Meyer: What are they called, the blue zones? This is,

[00:29:18] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah. It's like there's five blue zones. It's the places in the world where people live the longest, not the longest lives, but the longest, happiest lives. And they're based on a set of criteria. So for example, like people in these places have a sense of purpose. A lot of them are like farming communities where even into old age, like you have to get up, you have to take care of 

[00:29:35] Dan Meyer: well That's why I'm not going there yet, so I gonna be useless. Uh, they

[00:29:38] Vanessa Vakharia: No, no. You don't have to be a farmer! No, that's not it either though. And like a lot, like there's like, there's a set of criteria, like one of them being like actually having a purpose when you wake up. Another one being like probably what you're saying, like it's a society that's a very tight when it comes to community. So there's a sense of community. Like they have access to a lot of fresh food. Like there's like basically a whole list of stuff, like kind of what you're talking about. Anyways, I'm just, we should take a trip is all I'm saying. 

[00:30:03] Dan Meyer: Road trip. Road trip. 

I, I, like where I live. I, you know, we're on different sides of the border here. But I, I love a lot about my, my country and also, you know, want to see things change. I'm not a love it or leave it kind of, you know, kind of person here. You know, it's

[00:30:14] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God. Yeah. Right. That's a big difference. Yeah. I'm not, okay. 

Okay. We, we like very unfortunately, have to wrap up. I'm actually very sad about it because I'm having way more fun than I thought. Are you.

[00:30:25] Dan Meyer: I'm having exactly as much fun as I thought, be honest. So I'm, I'm glad I came in with, benefiting from low expectations here. Yeah. Awesome.

Whose world record is better?

[00:30:34] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God. Okay. There's two final things I wanna ask you. Okay. You set a Guinness World record and, and I don't know if you know about this, but so did I! I know. Did you

[00:30:46] Dan Meyer: Hold up, hold up. I have a question just to identify like, which caliber of record holder we're talking about here. Was, was yours a solo record or one of those like group records?

[00:30:58] Vanessa Vakharia: Fuck you, Dan. Okay.

[00:31:01] Dan Meyer: I just wanna know what, who I'm dealing with here 

[00:31:03] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay fine yours is obviously cooler than mine, but ours is, it was a group record. 

[00:31:06] Dan Meyer: Ah, "ours", I see. Yes. Okay. Now tell me, this is really exciting to me.

[00:31:09] Vanessa Vakharia: It was a record for the longest rock concert ever. And and how long was it, David? Do you remember? I don't know. I think it was like seven days or something. Basically it was like what? 16? Like days, 16 days. And basically, it was so cr, so yes, we were one of like hundreds of bands that played it. And basically they had to have music playing 24 7 at this bar. And like, the rules were so crazy. Like it was like, you, right? Like insane. We played, we played twice during this, so that's mine. But okay, let's hear about yours, which is actually a solo record. 

[00:31:38] Dan Meyer: Well, yeah. Yeah. Like mine is like yours. If I had like come in and done like a quick thing and then let other people do lots of work, but that's not I, so like we have a lot in common, but there are some differences that are worth probably pointing out.

Yours is obviously lots cooler than mine because mine was chaining paperclips together and making the world's longest paperclip chain, the longest chain the world had ever seen.

[00:32:03] Vanessa Vakharia: Dying.

[00:32:04] Dan Meyer: Yeah, so that's about as much detail as we need to go into that. But it was, it was a long time ago. It was college, back when, uh, felt like I had a lot more energy for that kind of nonsense, 

[00:32:13] Vanessa Vakharia: How long did it take? Like should I try and beat you? Like that could be real beef.

[00:32:16] Dan Meyer: Here's the deal. You couldn't. I just don't think you could. I'm just telling, like I'm just, and it's not you, I just don't know if there's, I don't know if I could break this record. Here's the thing. It's, it's, it is, oh my gosh, it's held for 20 years, like it's a 20 year old record. Name, like another record that's held for 20 years. Like, like, like speed skate, like speed, olympics records, like they 

[00:32:37] Vanessa Vakharia: But people try to break those. Has anyone tried?

[00:32:39] Dan Meyer: I hear you. I hear you. I do. It's not the same. I'm not putting on the same pedestal. But this thing was like, okay, so you like, you chain a clip. How fast could you chain clips? You have 24 hours. You have 24 hours to chain paperclips together. You know, how fast could you do it? I was doing one clip every two seconds for 24 hours.

[00:32:58] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God. That, 

[00:33:00] Dan Meyer: 24 hours! 

[00:33:01] Vanessa Vakharia: But how, were you on drugs?, Did you take any substances?

[00:33:03] Dan Meyer: Well, what do you, do you call caffeine a substance? I'm, I'm, I'm, uh, that, that was all I was up to there, so 

[00:33:09] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God. That, that's cr, did you, were you, did you have an injury? Were your hands bleeding at the end?

[00:33:14] Dan Meyer: You know what, you know what, I, I, my knuckles started cracking after that. They never could before that, but now they're just like a, they're like, you know, a bunch of bones in a pinball machine.

[00:33:23] Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my God. Okay, we are done. Okay, we're going to the final 2

[00:33:26] Dan Meyer: David is like, okay, what is going on

[00:33:27] Vanessa Vakharia: I wish you could see David's face. I honestly wish you could see his face. 

[00:33:30] Dan Meyer: David's eyes are rolling back, back behind his skull.

[00:33:34] Vanessa Vakharia: The final two questions.

[00:33:35] Dan Meyer: I just wanna say congrats on that record though. That's fun. 

[00:33:37] Vanessa Vakharia: Wait. David has a note that he wants me to read you, which is that Dexter from the Offspring has a PhD in molecular biology. So that's pretty rock. So I guess me and, us and Dexter, that's, that's our, we should start a convention for us.

[00:33:53] Dan Meyer: Love that you have like the, I'm hearing from my producer, breaking news, urgent.

[00:34:00] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. The final two questions we ask everyone. 

Q1

[00:34:02] Vanessa Vakharia: Number one, Dan Meyer, what is the one thing you'd like to see changed about the way math is taught in schools?

[00:34:08] Dan Meyer: Make it more like the humanities. Next.

[00:34:11] Vanessa Vakharia: Wow. Jesus Christ.

Q2

[00:34:12] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, number two, number two. 

What, what do you say to someone who's like, Dan, I'm just not a math person.

[00:34:23] Dan Meyer: I, I would say how, how dare you, how dare you spread that lie.

[00:34:27] Vanessa Vakharia: That's it? I'm kidding, I'm kidding, that can be it. That can be it. That can be 

[00:34:32] Dan Meyer: No, I might be a little more aggressive.

No, no. I mean, you know, like, it's like, no, you, you got told a lie. You know, like you got told a lie at some point, the world tells you lies about that sort of thing. All about how we define math. You know, everyone's mathematical, everyone's a pattern sensor, a shape describer, you know, an estimator.

[00:34:46] Vanessa Vakharia: What? These are cool. I want these on a shirt. Pattern Sensor. Shape Describer. 

Outro

[00:34:51] Vanessa Vakharia: This has been so fun. Is there is there any, is there anything else you wanna say? Go tell people where to find you.

[00:34:57] Dan Meyer:

Um, find me on Twitter. Yeah, Twitter @DDMeyer. You know, I got a, I got a substack newsletter, danmeyer.substack.comis where I do, uh, a little weekly writing about these issues. So I would love to see y'all there. 

[00:35:10] Vanessa Vakharia: Great, and stay tuned, maybe we'll do episode two where I live read Dan Meyers's birth chart.

[00:35:16] Dan Meyer: Bonus. Bonus for, yeah, the subscribers, bonus for the, uh, Patreon

[00:35:21] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, this has been amazing. 

[00:35:23] Dan Meyer: Thank you. So long. 

[00:35:25] Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, is there even anything left to say at this point? I feel like I totally judged Dan Meyer based on our like, two minute interaction almost a year ago, and it just goes to show you that you don't always get a second chance to make a first impression. Unless you get asked to be on a podcast. 

But for real, I feel like Dan had my mind whirling for this entire interview and gave me so much to think about. One thing I just can't get out of my mind is the idea of teaching math as an act of protest. It's so cool, so punk rock. And that's something each and every one of us can do, regardless of where we are and what our classrooms look like. 

I would love to know what teaching math as an act of protest looks like for you, and I'm sure Dan would too. So hit us up, and stay tuned for the non-existent part two of this episode where Dan Meyer lets me read his birth chart. I mean, crazier things have happened, so let's just manifest it guys.

If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us @maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally @themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. 

Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise.

And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.