Pamela Seda: 0:02

As adults, we very seldom ever put ourselves in situations where we can be wrong, but we ask our students to do it every single day. We force them to be uncomfortable. We force them to risk. Who are we, if we ask our kids to do that every day, who are we then to excuse ourselves from the discomfort of learning? Especially when another human being can be impacted.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:28

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. We are back, baby. Okay, I probably say that every season, but hey, I love a good catchphrase. The point is, I'm back with a whole new season of Math Therapy, and I'm gonna start by doing something shocking. I'm gonna shut up and dive right into our first guest without further ado. So when I say the word equity, I want to know what comes to your mind because I'll be honest, I talk about it all the time but sometimes I feel like I don't even know what it truly means and that's why I could not wait to talk to Dr. Pamela Seda. She is a total equity guru and I just found our chat so refreshing. Sometimes I find equity to be such like a nebulous, confusing topic, and I want to learn more and action the big ideas we keep hearing about, but I don't know how. And that's where Pam comes in. She shares her thoughts on the state of education and also some perspective on how we got here in the first place. We also discussed practical ways in which we can turn those big ideas into reality in our own classrooms. And if you listen very carefully, you can hear my microphone picking up the sound of my brain literally exploding as she explained the difference between equity and equality. So lay down a tarp or put on a helmet or do whatever you gotta do to emotionally prepare to have your mind blown by Pam Seda. Pam, welcome to the podcast.

Pamela Seda: 2:10

I am so happy to be here. Thanks for inviting me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:14

Well, of course, so I'm, I'm actually a huge fan because I read your book, Choosing to See, I remember while I was reading it, I was like, I need to have her on the podcast because I have so many questions and I felt it really challenged like my view of equity. So like maybe just in short before I even start asking you questions, do you want to describe the book to listeners, like if someone was like, well, what's the book about? Like, what would you say?

Pamela Seda: 2:39

So I would say the book is about how do we teach math in ways so that it's not a gatekeeping subject, but that it's accessible to everyone. And it's based on the framework that came out of my dissertation, ICUCARE. Every chapter, um, is based on the principle, but the book not only has the research talks about the principles, it starts off with personal stories so people understand how this really impacts students. What does it mean, what happens when we don't do this and then lots of specific strategies on how do we get it done? So I kind of say, it's my love letter to teachers who want to do right by children from marginalized groups. It's a place to start.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:22

I love that. That I actually felt like that way too. Like I, it was something I could listen to and understand. And like, there was lots of like nice little tidbits and little sections. And I want, let's talk about the ICUCARE framework. Like what, what does that stand for?

Pamela Seda: 3:36

So ICUCARE is an acronym for, um, the framework that actually was in the multicultural teacher education literature, at first, it wasn't even about math. It was just about, you know, equity in general. And then I saw someone had applied it to a ELA class and used a lens for ELA instruction. And so, because for me, it's all about that math, I applied it to a math context. And so in doing that, it stands for Include others as experts, be Critically conscious, Understand your students well, use Culturally relevant curricula, Assess, activate, build on prior knowledge, Release control, and Expect more. And I'm just gonna say, it wasn't that sexy in my dissertation, but in working with teachers, they said, you gotta give us a way to remember it. So, I went back to the drawing board and out came ICUCARE.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:28

Well, I love it. Everyone needs an acronym. Like I can see this on a t-shirt. Where's the merch? Put that on a crop top for me.

Pamela Seda: 4:34

I need to get my daughter on it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:35

Okay. let's get her, let's get her on it. Okay. I actually wanna ask you about the final two. R was release control and E is hold high expectations. for all students. I think, um, it's really interesting because we're in a space in education where I almost feel like everything's like low key about releasing control. Like you look at all the frameworks out there, like even like thinking classrooms, it's like, just let your kids like do stuff on whiteboards or like open middle, just let them like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, okay, this is a really bad description of all those things, but you know what I mean? Like, it's like, there's all of this idea of like, let kids think and do stuff and don't tell them what to do. Do you get pushback from that? Like, do you have teachers being like, well, how can I release? Like, I feel like education actually, especially in a math class, is so much about control. You said math as a gatekeeper, but it's also like math as like a means of controlling. Like, how do you see that R in ICUCARE? Like, how do you see it playing out now, and how would you like to see it play out?

Pamela Seda: 5:32

Well, I haven't gotten a lot of pushback. Matter fact, that's the one that most teachers say, I really struggle with this one. Like they say that chapter really resonated with them. It's like guilty as charged. Um, they probably kind of knew that that was an issue, but the fact that I said it and said it out loud, gave them permission to say, okay, I know I need to work on this. So I haven't seen a lot of pushback. But one of the reasons I thought it was real important to put release control and expect more, and I'm glad that you mentioned both of those together is because there's this perception that making math accessible is about lowering the bar, it's about watering things down. And it's like,"Oh, these poor children, I feel sorry for them, so we're going to lower the bar because they can't do any better". And, it's not that way at all. It's you can't really, really release control unless you expect your kids to take it. Right? If you don't have high expectations for your kids, you're not going to release control. You're going to try to do all the work. But the other side of that is. You know, there's this phrase that the kids used to always say, you're doing too much. And in this case, we are doing too much. Partly because teachers are being expected to do too much. Other parts are because we want to rescue kids and we so much want for them to learn. We ended up taking over the learning, not realizing we're actually undermining the learning process. So it's, it's in that vein that I wrote that chapter, being guilty myself of needing to release control. So one of the things I talk about in the expect more chapter is I talk about how important it is to be a warm demander, like those two things go together. And kids kind of like, that's cognitive dissonance for most children. They think if you're nice to them, then you're going to make everything easy and let them get away with stuff. And if you demand from them, they're thinking you got to be mean. And I remember sharing with people as a high school teacher, I was probably, I was pretty good with the demanding part. But sometimes not so much the warm part and how important it is for both. And that when you are both, when you are those warm demanders, that really gets a lot of impact for kids, especially for those who traditionally don't trust the system.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:55

Huh.

Pamela Seda: 7:56

That being a warm demander really makes a difference.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:59

It's so interesting because you're like the fourth interview now that the word trust has come up. And like I just, I just happened to be on this Brene Brown kick. And by that I mean I've picked up one book of hers and I'm halfway through it. But it's really made me rethink the word trust. We say it so often, trust, trust, trust. But like, what does that actually mean in the classroom, and why does that need to be in place for any of this stuff to work? what does it mean to you when you say that? Like, kids who don't traditionally trust the system, like, they need to build trust in you as their guide. Like, what, what does that mean?

Pamela Seda: 8:35

Oh, wow, that's, that's a lot there. So I was thinking about the research on wise feedback. They were saying a lot of students who receive negative feedback, sometimes they are, they don't trust that the person giving them the feedback is not based on stereotypes. So if there's a stereotype that as a black person, I'm not as academically adept as some of your other people, then if a teacher gives me negative feedback, I may think this feedback is coming out of your bias.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:12

Hmm.

Pamela Seda: 9:14

That's where we talk about that trust. Sometimes it may not have anything to do with you personally, but just historically because the stereotypes, and the nature of stereotypes, we don't ever know when they're really operating. I remember just having this conversation with someone recently about how, you know, somebody can make a decision, it could have a negative impact on me. And I don't know whether it's because I'm black or it's because I'm a woman. It could be, but I realized because I never really can know that I don't waste my, I can't waste my mental energy trying to figure that out. Like I just have keep it moving, learn from it. But there's still that always in the back of my mind, why did they make that decision?

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:58

I, I could not possibly relate to this more. Like I, yeah, like to me, like literally actually everything is sexism, like the end, like just everything. And so, so I feel this way too. But then it's like you're gaslighting yourself, right? Cause you're like, but am I like, wait, am I overreacting? Is it not really because of that? So, but, but now I need just advice. How do you not waste your mental energy on that? Like, what do you do?

Pamela Seda: 10:21

I just learned, I, and I was just telling my husband this, just yesterday, how some of the best ideas and some of my best work has come out of reaction to negative criticism that I thought was just crazy. Like me being mad with someone because they said something or did something I didn't like. And I've come up with some of the greatest ideas, that way. I'm like they saying this? This is some nonsense, I'm going to show them. And then I've come up with something brilliant. So I'm like, I realized that, I've told him, I said, all feedback really is a gift, even if the gift is, I'm going to know not to say it this way, or not to share this information with you because you're a hater and you can't, and you value this information. That's still a gift because most people don't give you feedback at all. They think all these crazy things and you never know about it and it's operating, but you're just like, have no idea. So even if they are off the wall and they hate me and it's because I'm a black, it doesn't matter. All feedback is a gift. And it can motivate me to be better

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:23

I love that. But do you tell this to students? Like, how could a student process this?

Pamela Seda: 11:29

I'm just saying this for me personally, what I've often told students, this is what I've told students, and it may be terrible, but this is what I used tell them, like when, if they were, because I taught high school, so if they were in high school and they would complain about whatever teacher, this teacher, whatever they say, not fair, they're picking on them, whatever. So then if I asked them, you Um, do you want to go to college? Are your plans to go to college? And most students do want to go to college. Most of the students I have worked with, they want to go to college. And I say, it's only going to get worse. I'm just being honest with you. I said, the teachers you have now are better. They're probably 10 times better than the ones you're going to get. So, let's figure it out. Like, you're preparing, this is your preparation ground. Let's figure out how to advocate for yourself, how to because those are the things you're gonna have to do in college. Because they're not gonna even give you half the stuff that you're getting here. I don't know if that was good advice, but that was just, it seemed to work.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:22

Well, okay, we're all doing our best in any given moment and I don't think there's a right or wrong. I also think like this is interesting because like, you know, my podcast is Math Therapy and it's all about healing math trauma and helping kids build better relationships with math. And one of the things I'm, I'm writing a book on it right now, and one of the chapters, one of the steps, like basically there's five steps of math therapy, who cares, we're not going to get into it. But one of the steps is all about finding ways to motivate students who are like, well, I really don't care about math. And I love what you said, because often what I encourage teachers to do is focus on the skill they are building, in your classroom that they can carry far out of the classroom. So I love what you're saying in a way of being like, okay, yeah, let's take this like negative feedback or negative experience and turn it into a positive in the sense that like you have an opportunity right now to build skills, to advocate for yourselves, to reflect on your, like all these skills that are going to carry you forth, far beyond the math classroom, far beyond like the ratios you're learning or whatever. So I really liked that. And I wonder though, too, like how, where is the line of like, obviously, if you're a student in a classroom and you're feeling like you're being discriminated against or like the feedback you're getting is, due to a biases, that is like going to form a math trauma to me, right? Like you're going to be like, I feel this sense of not belonging. There's going to be a wound, but at the same time, there's this opportunity to build this strength. I guess I'm just like outer processing this with you. I'm like, Oh, this is such a tough one because on the one hand, how do we like, let students know that what's happening to them is wrong, if it is wrong, while helping them build that strength. Like, how do you navigate that middle ground?

Pamela Seda: 13:59

Yeah, I I think the advocating for yourself is important, is something that's learned. A lot of adults haven't learned that. So, you know, and I understand even I've heard people say, well, you know, it's hard to expect a middle schooler to advocate, you know, with a teacher that's much older, and I get that, but it's not any less intimidating when you're an adult and have a supervisor who controls your paycheck. it's a skill that has to be learned and, you know, it's just like a muscle, you practice it. And I think that's a valuable thing to learn. But the second thing I think is very important, which is to me why black people have survived in the United States the way they have, is they found community. You have to find, you have to find your people who can build you up. And I remember, this was not math trauma, but I remember being really traumatized one time when a parent just basically told me I didn't care. Like I was a teacher, I called, the child was sleeping in class, and I called the parent. You know, kind of say, what can we do, your child's sleeping in class? And they explained to me at this point in time, maybe, I don't know how many weeks later that their child had a medical condition and the medicine was making them sleepy. Like, okay, that would have been nice to know at the beginning, but we still have to, right. And so they just really attacked me. Said I didn't care about teaching and that I was just there for the paycheck. Oh, right? When, when you, a parent of one of my students said that about me, it was soul crushing. But I remember going to the teacher next door, telling her what happened, and of course, she was just there, she's like, you, you, you just can't let that, that's her pain. Her, you can't, you can't internalize that. And she just built me up and if I hadn't had her, I, I don't know what kind of negative talk would have been going on in my brain. Um, and so it was just, I was just thankful to have that. And I think that's just so important that when you're in the struggle and there's a battle and we, we're battling all kinds of things, whether it's bias or just plain old ignorance, uh, you can't do it by yourself. You've got to have people to, while you're trying to advocate for yourself, you got to have people who can build you back up.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:13

Well, and I wonder too just that idea of community is like one of the reasons like, obviously, this is a different way of looking at it. Um, just like why we need to talk to our students about feelings around math anxiety, math trauma, the fact that like, you know, stereotyping can be really traumatic that they're, you know, that this is a common feeling that people feel like they're not isolated so that they can feel more of a sense of belonging, regardless of what they're going through in the math classroom. Like that to me is such a key component of math therapy is of being like, yeah, we're talking about it and we're creating a community culture even within our classroom where all of us can have one another's backs.

Pamela Seda: 16:48

Absolutely.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:49

Well, and I, I want to talk a little more about equity. And what I want to start with almost is I say this all the time, that there's so many different ways that math trauma can occur. It can be someone telling you you suck at math. It can be, you know, this and that. But one of the key things that can be is biases, stereotyping, lack of representation. So many of the things I associate with equity, but I feel I'm being really close minded about it, in a way, and like, I'm not, I kind of want to hear how you define equity because I feel like it actually encompasses way more than I think and that can in turn affect students.

Pamela Seda: 17:22

Yeah, I've heard somebody describing and we, we pretty much say in the book it's simple as equity is simply every student getting what they need to be successful.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:30

Hmm.

Pamela Seda: 17:30

Everybody gets what they need.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:32

Everybody gets what they need to be successful. I love that.

Pamela Seda: 17:36

That's, that's the end goal. It's just that simple. The problem is, we make assumptions about what kids need. Either we do as when a friend of mine said, we make those cardiac, uh, assessments, what I feel in my heart,

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:53

What? What is

Pamela Seda: 17:56

One of my friends said it's a cardiac assessment, it's how I feel, what I feel in my heart about this kid that we've been guilty of just, this is what I feel for this kid. And so we make this cardiac assessment, not based on any evidence. Or we make assumptions about kids based on stereotypes. And as adults, we just always assume that we know what kids need rather than asking them. Rather than collecting evidence. And I'm not saying that we always just listen to what kids say, right? Because sometimes kids need adults to kind of help them accurately assess their abilities, but you have to do both. You have to, you know, look at what students are doing. Look at their work. Listen to what they're saying in addition to interviews, whatever, in addition to the test, like, look at the whole picture to figure out what kids need. And somebody said this, I wish I knew who I could give credit to, but I don't remember. They said equality is everybody gets a pair of shoes. Equity is everybody gets a pair of shoes that fits.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:05

I'm thinking. I'm thinking about this. Yeah. Well, okay. Hold on. Equality is everyone gets a pair of shoes. Equity is everyone gets a pair of shoes that fits. I guess I'm like, is equality everyone getting a pair of shoes? Yeah. Okay.

Pamela Seda: 19:22

We think about equality, everybody getting the same thing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:25

The same thing. Okay, now it makes sense. No, no, I needed you to unpack that. Now I get it.

Pamela Seda: 19:29

Yes, everybody gets the same thing. So everybody gets a pair of shoes. You get a pair of shoes. You get a pair of shoes. Everybody gets a pair of shoes!

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:36

Oprah, yes, Okay.

Pamela Seda: 19:38

And so it looks like we have equity, but we don't think about the end goal. What are we trying to accomplish?

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:44

Right.

Pamela Seda: 19:45

And if our goal is that everybody can run or walk to their destination,

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:52

Oh.

Pamela Seda: 19:52

Then you can't just get caught up in the fact that you gave somebody shoes. And, and so much of what we do, for me, even around equity feels like a checkbox. It's like, see, I gave everybody shoes. Look, look at me. Look how great I was.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:07

So how do you take this idea, which is an incredibly beautiful idea, and I think like everyone in principle would be like, well, yeah, But like, I can just imagine, and I know this is what people say, of just being, and I'm sure you hear this, of people being like, but like, there's not time for that, like, how do we, sorry, I'm like, okay, as soon as you say that there's not time for that, I guess you're making the choice to just leave some people without a pair of shoes. Like, you're just like, well, and like, I guess it's already always the same people that don't have the pair of shoes that fit. Oh my God. Right.

Pamela Seda: 20:36

And you have to think about what is it we're doing? Why are we here? Like, what's the point?

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:41

So how do you do it though? Because it's like I, imagine you have a classroom of 35 kids and I would imagine that every single student needs something different.

Pamela Seda: 20:49

Right. And so this is what I've realized. We have to shift our mindset about us as teachers and the work that we're supposed to be doing. And we are doing too much if we think that individually we're going to be able to meet the needs of every individual kid.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:03

Ah.

Pamela Seda: 21:05

If we see that I am the teacher and I'm responsible for meeting the individual needs of 35 kids, there's not enough for me to go around. Traditionally, that's the way school's been set up. It's competition for the teacher's attention.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:19

Right.

Pamela Seda: 21:20

A competition for teacher's attention. The smartest, the brightest, the loudest, that's who gets teacher's attention. Those who are quiet don't get the teacher's attention and they lose. It's a competition. That's how traditional classrooms have been set up. But if we change it from a collection of individuals to a community of learners and you create structures or routines to where they're not only responsible for their individual learning, but they're also responsible for supporting the learning of their classmates, and you structure that way, then you'll find a whole lot of learning is going on because you release some control to the kids. It's a different type of leadership. It's accountability to each other, which is way more powerful than accountability to you as a single teacher,

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:05

Okay. So this is really interesting because I actually feel like that really opens a door that in my mind was closed of like almost being like, I hear you say that I want to do it, it feels impossible, I'm giving up. But you're right. It's like, if you can rely on your community for support, if you can do the R, release control, like, that's what ends up building this idea. So I really, really love that. And I wonder then like, how do we turn, like, I sometimes feel like equity is like just this poster on the classroom wall, and you're like, great, look, like, we have all these diverse mathematicians, but like, we actually have to like actualize that into classroom practice, right?

Pamela Seda: 22:41

Right. So we're speaking a poster on the wall, I just thought about a poster I used to have on my wall called See Three Before Me. Shifting a mindset. Whereas in times past, kids raise their hands, I'm running all over the classroom trying to answer individual questions, right? So just a little shift was you need to see three people, because I've already have the class structured, so you know who your three people are, who your community that I've already structured that you ask first. Not only you see your people, you might use a textbook as a resource, or you might go like, there's three places you've tried to get your question answered first. And if everybody in your group, if all four of you have the same question. Then I come over and I answered the one question for four people.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:32

Huh. I love this.

Pamela Seda: 23:33

So I'm making wiser use of my time. Because I'm not answering an individual's question, I'm answering the question for four people, that, because they've discussed it before they came to me asking, they're going to have much richer question to ask and be able to make more sense of the response I'm going to give them because they have been interacting with each other about the question before it ever gets to me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:58

I love this. It's like the snowball effect. Probably by the time the question gets to you, it's like, first of all, so much more like they know what they're really asking now, you know, like they've like figured out what they know and what they don't. I love this. Okay, so here was another question I had. Tell me if this is a legit strategy or not, okay? I feel like one of the arguments, again, like, going back to what you're saying, like, you cannot accommodate every single person in the room. Like, the ratio of 1 to 35 is unrealistic. What if, you know how, like, it's like some of the accommodations for kids with IEPs are like, someone needs extra time on a test, someone needs a formula sheet, someone needs access to being able to write their essay on a computer instead of by hand, like, just basic things. What if we just let all kids have the same accommodations. Is that a thing?

Pamela Seda: 24:46

So, I totally agree with you. And this may get me in trouble, but this is the thing. Why are we making all these accommodations for kids? Most of that stuff that you said is just so that kids can somehow perform better on this test. Are those accommodations really helping them learn? So, that's 1 thing that I really want us to think about because that's also part of equity that I look at is, yeah, it's how we structure the classroom, but sometimes equity means, to help kids be successful, sometimes there are barriers in the way that you might have to move out the way. Not that you lower the standard, the bar is up here, but for some kids, there's some rocks and some dams in the way of that bar. They're not there for any particular reason, they're just what I call some of those gatekeeping practices. So for some kids, equity just means moving those things out the way so they can get to the bar. And I think when we're talking about accommodations, it should be about moving stuff out the way that blocks their access to the math content and not just so that they can bubble in some multiple choice test, so that makes our test scores look good so that we can brag to everybody in our community about what a great school we are.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:04

Oh my God. Yes. And I'm also like, I heard, don't quote me on this statistic, but I believe in Ontario and I know it's kind of similar in the States, only like 2 percent of the kids that need an IEP ever get one because of money, because of wait lists, because of access, because of first gen parents who don't know how to navigate the system. So at the end of the day, it's like, I mean, look, couldn't we be bold and say if so many kids need extra time on a test because the boulder, because the rock in the way of them accessing math content is being timed, and like their anxiety flares up

Pamela Seda: 26:36

I agree.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:37

Yeah, why don't we just move that boulder for everyone?

Pamela Seda: 26:39

Move it!

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:39

Like I don't understand!

Pamela Seda: 26:41

Let me tell you why,

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:42

Okay,

Pamela Seda: 26:43

Because if we go back, I don't know if we mentioned it here, but, schools were never created to educate all kids to high levels. They're simply sorting mechanisms. And going back to that competition, schools have been places, if you're sorting, there's only so many high spaces, so many spots for people to be at the top, then it's all about competition. And if that's what school is about, which traditionally it has been, that's why you won't give them to everybody because then, then the competition, that's giving people unfair advantages in the competition. That's why it doesn't change.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:21

You're so right. And you know what? Kids know this. They don't need to be told, like, I mean, you've said it in a really explicit way with, like, historical evidence, but it's like, kids know it's a competition, like, you can say to them, it's not a competition, like, don't compare yourselves to others, but everything in the structure and system of school is set up for a competition, and like, they know how to compete, they've played video games, they've played a sport, they know what rules are, and they're seeing the same rules in their classrooms, oh my god, this is blowing my mind, it's so hard not to swear right now, but I'm not doing it, but like, this is, you're right. That's so wild. And it's like, how do we, do, I guess here's a question. Do we need schools to sort? Do we need there to be like, do we need it anymore?

Pamela Seda: 28:04

I think it's unethical to sort kids. I just think it's, I think it's educational malpractice.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:10

Wow. Oh my God. There's the title of an episode.

Pamela Seda: 28:13

I don't that's our job to sort kids. Our job should be helping kids learn all that they need to learn, teaching them to think and reason so they can figure stuff out, because Lord knows we have a lot of problems that need to be figured out in this world.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:33

Wow. Amen. I've never said amen in my life. Delete I feel so weird that I just said that. But like, I was

Pamela Seda: 28:41

You're not cussing and you're saying, Amen, what's gotten into you?

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:46

I'm a new woman. Okay. Is there a way, I have a couple of friends who are like white male teachers who are like, sometimes I try to talk to them about this stuff and their reaction is like, Oh yeah, no, like I don't even, yeah, I just don't want to mess it up. I don't want to get canceled. I just try to stay away from it all. Do you know what I mean? Like, they think they're going to do inclusion and equity wrong. Like, what? Like, what, what, what, what, what are you saying there?

Pamela Seda: 29:09

So if you're trying to, if you're trying to follow a program and if it's about being compliant, which a lot of work that teachers are doing, that's what it's about, then I can understand that. But if it's about helping those kids, then that's not an option. So, I remember a time that a student came to me and this was in the middle of all the controversy where, you know, don't say gay, like everything is politicized. And I remember, uh, a student came up to me and actually I was subbing at the time, it was funny, I was working in a social office, but I was substituting at the time, but I had been a regular so she knew me. She came up to me and she says, well, my brother just came out, he just told us he was gay. So I'm thinking about how I can connect with her. Obviously she feels safe enough to say that to me. And then I'm thinking, but Lord, I'm a substitute. I don't need to be. uh, on the news somewhere. And so I just simply said, well, how do you feel about it? Did you know, or was it a surprise to you? And she's like, we kind of already knew. And that was kind of like the end of the discussion because my issue was, it's not about me, it's not about my feelings. It's about me connecting with this kid. And when, when that's your goal, it's connecting with real life human beings, it's not putting them through some factory to sort kids, when it's about connecting to their humanity and making them feel cared for and, and loved, then you, you can't not do anything.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:38

And I guess like, that's always, it's funny, like I own a tutoring center. Like that's kind of what I do. And we have hundreds of kids and lots of tutors. And I always have these discussions with them being like, you know, often you are the only adult in your student's life who like, they really trust to say stuff to because that's the whole vibe of my space. Like I want them to feel like, you know, they're able to be themselves while doing math. They don't have to take off their hat of their identity to put on their math hat, whatever, stuff that you're obviously familiar with. And I'm like, things are going to come up, right, and obviously we're all so nervous, right? Like not, we thankfully don't live in America and we can say the word gay in Canada, I'm so sorry about that. That is just literally wild. Um, but I'm going to get canceled by some Americans now. But, I always say what you can do if you're ever unsure, if you ever feel like, well, I don't know enough about the subject, is just ask them questions. You never have to tell them anything, you never have to give them advice, you never have to share your opinion. If it's something, right? Like there's so much power in asking because often like these kids just want to feel heard. They're expressing themselves and they need something to work out their own feelings and you can just like ask away and never really say anything and allow them that space.

Pamela Seda: 31:47

Absolutely.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:48

So yeah, I guess that's really good advice for anyone listening who's like, but I don't know how or I feel uncomfortable or I feel like I'm going to do it wrong. It's like just connecting to students and asking why, like just even the word why, like why do you feel that way? Like how does

Pamela Seda: 32:01

I also want to, um, turn this around just a little

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:04

Yeah, please.

Pamela Seda: 32:06

As adults, we very seldom ever put ourselves in situations where we can be wrong, but we ask our students to do it every single day We force them to be uncomfortable. We force them to risk. We force them to be in situations where they don't know and they're not sure. Who are we if we ask our kids to do that every day, who are we then to, to excuse ourselves from the discomfort of learning, especially when another human being can be impacted.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:38

Yeah. Wow. That's so powerful. So, and I guess like this is one of those things to like, you know, a call to action to the task of being like, you might be uncomfortable just like your students, but that doesn't mean like it's not the right thing to do or you need to shut down or like, you know, you're learning a lot about yourself and what makes you uncomfortable and why, too. Which is like, I think really, really important. And I mean, we get like, we are talking about equity, which is obviously the most important, but I'm even thinking about teachers who are uncomfortable around math, right? Because often I do math therapy with teachers who are uncomfortable around their own, own math ability. And it's like, but you're asking your students to like navigate these new ideas and be wrong, so like you taking that first leap again, Oh my God, I'm bringing up Brene Brown so much, I feel like as soon as I read a book, I think I authored the book. Okay, but anyways, she talks about how one of the most powerful things a leader can do, like research has shown, is when a leader asks for help and shows vulnerability, their staff responds to them better than if the leader always acts like they know what to do. Right. So like, I think, yeah, like that teacher being like, you know what, I don't know how to solve this problem. Or, you know what, I'm having anxiety up here. Or like, you know what, like, I actually really don't know how to answer your question and I feel for you. And like, all of these things make you so much more powerful and that connection you're talking about in that community in the classroom, like, Oh my God, I feel all warm and fuzzy now. Well, can I ask you a question in your opinion? Like, things seem so dark right now in that, like, I almost feel like in my mind, it was like a parabola. I think, I'm hoping it's a parabola. Cause I feel like we started like talking about equity up, like, okay, we're both making weird hand gestures guys. But it's an inverted parabola, because, these talks with equity and the classroom almost seemed like really good and hopeful at first. And then things took like a real dark turn and all of a sudden it was like weaponized and everyone like hates the word equity. And now it's like the opposite of equity. Like you can't like do anything. And now we're like down in the dark. Am I right? Is this the right mathematical shape? Are we going to climb back up? What's happening? Are things okay out there? Are they going to get better? Are they getting worse before they get better? Answer all my questions.

Pamela Seda: 34:41

So I haven't studied the history of education long enough. to answer that question. I can only have my 30ish years that I've been education, but what I can do, because I have studied is the history of oppression for Black people in the United States, and I've done a lot of studying historically. And I think about it as dark as it is now, and it's been very disappointing for me as a person who came of age started college in the eighties, so hopeful that things were getting better to see this happening. But when I look at it historically, it is just, it's very typical. Every time there has been black success, there's always been backlash until the next time. And so I look at what my parents dealt with, what my grandparents dealt with, I look at what my ancestors dealt with and the disappointment they experienced in trying to get equal access to a variety of things. And one of the reasons I so push for math because I know that being math literate is really a prerequisite to so many decent paying jobs that I feel like what I'm experiencing right now pales kind of compared to what my ancestors dealt with. Emotionally? No, right. Emotionally, there's always that disappointment when you work so hard and you think that something's going to happen. But the backlash has been very persistent and consistent, and I'm not surprised. The fact was that we were too successful

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:23

Wow.

Pamela Seda: 36:23

And that's why the backlash was so swift and harsh because it was so successful.

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:30

Do you feel like, I'm sorry, I've decided you're a historian and know everything now, but like, do you, do you feel like every time there is backlash, like, is this a like two steps forward, one step back situation, or is this a one step forward, two steps back situation?

Pamela Seda: 36:49

No, I think it's two step forward one step back. Even in my experience, even though there's all these laws and there's all these talk to me, most of the people who were committed to the work are still committed to the work. They're still doing the work. I haven't had to change anything I've had to say. Like, people are still asking me to come, I've not changed my message. There are people who are still interested in the work.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:11

That makes me happy. That makes me really happy because I guess, like, again, I'm in Canada, which is not far, but it's like, if look, if you look at the headlines, like, you're getting a very different picture, you know, and it's only from talk, like, having these conversations that I'm really trying to understand, like, what's going on. And it's not like we're perfect over here either, absolutely not, but it's just not to the same extreme and we don't have the

Pamela Seda: 37:34

Yeah, I tell people all the time I say, you know, a lot of Canadians have been interested in my work because they haven't done the backstepping like we have in the U. S. But,

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:46

Well that's, yeah, I would love to talk about how great Canada is, but we have our own issues, and we're definitely very racist and sexist in many ways. But, but yes, like it's obviously a bit different.

Pamela Seda: 37:55

Well, I'm, I'm thinking about policy, right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:57

Yeah, totally.

Pamela Seda: 37:59

Policy makes it harder. But when you have teachers who are committed to doing the right work, and that's part of the reason why I wrote the book. You don't need to get permission from anybody to do those strategies in your class.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:10

Right.

Pamela Seda: 38:10

Everything that I say in that book are things that are totally under the purvey of the teacher.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:15

Yeah.

Pamela Seda: 38:16

You don't have to go out and change all these systems even though they need to be changed. It's just understanding the system that you work within, how to, to do things in your realm of control, what you can do in your classroom, to make a difference for the kids who are sitting in your classroom.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:32

Uh, so powerful. So powerful because I think that is it. Sometimes it feels like you're like, but I work within this system, and it's like you do and that sucks, like let's acknowledge it sucks, and then let's figure out how to work within that system to do the best you possibly can to align with your mission and your values. And I, I love that because that puts power in the hands of the teacher of like, we acknowledge that it sucks and your hands are tied in many, many ways, but in some they're not, and how can you find that freedom and pass it on to your students? Like, where can you find it? Wow. This has been so, I could talk to you forever, ever and ever. This has just been such a lovely, hopeful talk. Final two questions of the podcast. Number one, first question is, what is the one thing you would like to see about the way math is taught in schools? One thing. 30 seconds. Let's go.

Pamela Seda: 39:22

I would like to see the students doing the hard work of learning.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:26

I love that. Wow. Most succinct answer award goes to Pam on this one. Um, okay. And what would you say to someone who's like, Pam, I love everything you said, so great, but like, I'm just not a math person.

Pamela Seda: 39:38

Tell me what that means to not be a math person. I'm not quite understanding what that means.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:45

I love it!

Pamela Seda: 39:47

Are you saying you can't learn math? Is that what you're saying? You do have the ability to learn math, so I would ask to try to understand what they meant by that they're not a math person.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:57

Well, and you know what's such a full circle moment here. We were just talking about how like when you don't know what to say and you don't know how to connect, just ask a question instead of giving an answer. And I love that. I love that. What do you mean?

Pamela Seda: 40:10

Sometimes we try to communicate to kids that they have to like math to do it. And I always share my own experience. You know, I wrote a book, I'm getting ready to write a second one, I wrote a dissertation. And I still hate writing. The only thing I like to write is my name on the back of a cheque. That I don't mind. But, I don't like to write. It's hard me. But I do it because it needs to be done and I decided that I was not going to let writing keep me from going where I needed to go. And I, that's the story I share with my students. You don't have to like math. You just have to determine that math is not going to be a roadblock for you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:53

Oh my god I'm obsessed.

Pamela Seda: 40:55

And I'm gonna be the one to help you so that math is not a roadblock for you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:01

I mean, yes. Preach. Amen. All the things. No f words. Tell us where we can find you. Tell the people where to find you.

Pamela Seda: 41:11

Okay, so you can find me on my website www.Pamseda.com, P-A-M-S-E-D-A.com. That will take you to SEDAeducationalconsulting.com, which is a mouthful. Um, you can reach me on Twitter, which is@pamseda1, and Instagram is the same thing. So it's just Pam Seda. That's how you find me. P A M S E D A.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:33

What a treat. What a treat. Thank you so much for being here. It was amazing. I can't wait to meet in real life one day.

Pamela Seda: 41:40

Thank you for having me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:41

Bye. I just love her. I mean, such an inspiration and so much to think about. Honestly, ever since our interview, I've been imagining not only the history of education as a parabola, but like the history of the world. It seems to me like math education is mimicking the pattern of every industry, philosophy, policy, and way of thinking right now. Like we're stuck between progress and the past. And I truly believe that all of us have the best intentions, but we're so frustrated by how things are that we just can't see a way out. And that's why I'm so grateful for and inspired by people like Pam, who shed some light on how we can just chart a new course for our students and make our classrooms and hopefully our world a better place for all people, like literally every single one of us. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.