Intro

Brittany Hege 0:02

I think every teaching experience is also a learning experience. Like I've never been in a classroom with students where I've not learned something about the math that I'm teaching

Vanessa Vakharia 0:13

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, I am so excited about today's guest because here's how I've been feeling lately and maybe you can relate. There are so many new ways that teachers are being told to teach their students these days. Like the frameworks, the pedagogies, the this, the that. It's so overwhelming and I mean, think of how many different people I've interviewed on this podcast who have developed a new approach to teaching. Like even I'm here peddling this whole math therapy thing to whoever I can get to listen. So I guess, hi, I'm the problem, it's me? Okay, well my point is most of us who are teachers, were never taught the way we're now expected to teach. And even that keeps changing. And what's more, there seems to be little to no support for teachers to help them figure out all of these new ways to best deliver content to students. And so many teachers have their own math trauma and are nervous enough already, like it's too much. But today's guest is here to help us all. Brittany Hege is an incredible math educator and content creator, and we chatted about the ways education can evolve without leaving either students or teachers behind. She also explains how shame in the classroom can lead to anxiety and the healing power of curiosity and community. And now I've been talking for way too long, so here's Brittany.

Teaching = Learning

Vanessa Vakharia 1:48

So, you are in a way so different from the rest of my guests because I, I realize that I rarely speak to my guests about math. You know, we're often talking about math trauma in students, we're very rarely talking about math trauma in teachers. And what I love about what you do is your whole thing is like, teachers these days are expected to teach in a way that they weren't taught, and that can be so triggering, I don't think these are your words, but in my mind, I'm like, that can trigger their math trauma.

Brittany Hege 2:19

For sure. I very clearly remember my first year teaching, sitting at the front of the classroom, and I think I always like thought I was good at math, like I'm just a problem solver, but I remember standing at the front of my classroom, I had a fifth grader sitting in front of me and I don't know the problem like nine times 12 came up. And I was doing the whole teacher thing of like "who knows it?" to buy time so I could figure it out in my head. Because I was like I didn't know it. And I've got my phone up there behind my water like having to put it in the calculator, like I don't identify as somebody who necessarily had like "math trauma", but clearly I had a lot of beliefs and was not as strong of a math student as I thought I was. And so I was having to teach in a way that was so uncomfortable to me. I was learning the math right alongside my students.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:07

So do you think that learning the math right along our students is something that we should expect to do as teachers? Like is that the thing we need to get comfortable with?

Brittany Hege 3:16

Yeah, I think so. I mean it's really helpful when we're doing math outside the classroom and we are engaging in experiences where we're deepening our own understanding. Like, I think that's really helpful. But I also think we should expect to be learning right alongside our students. There are going to be students who do things in a way that is completely different than how I would have done it. And that piques my curiosity of like, okay, why does this work? How is this similar to the strategy, like, I would have taken? Is this an approach that's going to last for them like long term or do I need to kind of like guide them in a different way? So I think every teaching experience is also a learning experience. Like I've never been in a classroom with students where I've not learned something about the math that I'm teaching.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:03

I love that you said this because I'm now just thinking about last week when I taught this grade eight kid, I was teaching him ratios and it started occurring to me that he was totally not picking up what I was putting down because he didn't know how to divide. And I, I say to him, well, hold on a second, what's 10 divided by 2? And he was like, I don't, I don't know. And then I was like, Well, how many groups of two are in 10? And then he'd be like, two, four, six. And I was like, trying to figure out what he was doing. I was like, so hold on a second. When I say the word divide, you're completely blanked out, but when I phrase it a different way, and I, it took me like 10 minutes to be like, oh my God, you're skip counting to get to the number. And then when I said to him, but instead of counting five groups of two, couldn't you do five times two? He was like, I don't get what that means. The whole point is at the end, he said to me, thank you so much for teaching me. And I was like, no, thank you for teaching me. I was like, I've never seen anyone process this question in this way. And then I also said you know, it's my job as a teacher to figure out how to help you understand this. It's not your job to understand it just the way I'm teaching it, like straight up. That's not it, that's not the power dynamic. But it made me think of what you just said of being like, well, you can't possibly anticipate every single way a student is going to think in your classroom. And maybe back in the day, we were taught in a way that there was one way we were expected to do something, and the teacher at the front of the room knew that way. They were an expert in that way.

Brittany Hege 5:26

Yeah, well, I think the way, at least for me, the way that I learned math, it was not this creative thing that invoked curiosity. It was just like, this is the one way to do it. And if you don't get this one way, F. You know, like that's your grade. And it was so funny. I was talking to my husband the other day because he will tell you, and he's an elementary school administrator, he would tell you like math was not my thing. He still is intimidated by math. And we were talking about something because I was trying to prove something for Instagram. Um, so we were having a math discussion on Instagram. And so, you know, I was asking him, how would you figure out this problem? And he was, explaining it, and it was just really creative, it was beautiful number sense, and the thing that he said after that is he said, I was never good at math, but the strategy I just told you, like, that's how I coped. And I was like, no, like what you just told me is not a coping strategy, that is what we are trying to develop in students now. And so that's where I think it was like, just such an aha moment for me that like, the goal for how we were taught math was to like, do it this one way to do the algorithm, do the procedure and anything else than that was viewed as coping, or at least that's how he internalized it. And now I feel like it's kind of the exact opposite. Like we want the multiple strategies, the multiple representations, multiple approaches, and that's what's like praised and highlighted, or at least that's what we want to be praised and highlighted and not just the one path and no flexibility outside that one path.

Why teachers feel stuck

Vanessa Vakharia 6:59

So what's really interesting is like Mix and Math, which is what you created, has kind of stepped in to like solve this problem, but I, I have to back up because I was thinking about the statement you made, again, your website says it's been our experience in working with thousands of teachers that most did not learn math the way they are expected to teach. And I was sitting with that and being like, is this specific to teachers? Like, can we just pause? Let's look at like doctors. Okay. Or like, let's talk like literally any profession. Okay. We're going to use doctors because like everyone's had a doctor probably. Were they treated in the way they are expected to treat patients? And if not, is the difference that they went to school and were taught how to treat, like, do you know what I'm saying?

Brittany Hege 7:41

Yeah, that's a really good question. And you're probably right, because medicine evolves, right? And so, because of that, they learn something new. My assumption is that maybe they are educated on it. And then they have to change their practices. I think the missing piece is that, for me, in my experience, there was no, like, education. The gap between, like, how we were taught and then how we're expected to teach. That, like, missing section is that education. Like for me, I had one math methods course in college. I was an elementary ed major. So yes, I took the calc and pre calc or whatever college courses you take. But then I had the one math class. So for one semester, I was taught how to teach math K6. And that's not enough. Like, that's the only education I got. Any other education I have to change my practices has been learning that I've done on my own. And so, I don't know if it's the same in the medical field, but I assume they're being educated of like, research has said this, here's how we change our practices accordingly. I don't know. Maybe that's an assumption.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:47

No, but I, I, this is, this was my thing because I was like, okay, we're not gonna like, I know neither of us are experts in like, teaching teachers, but I, this has been a conversation that's been happening for so long. Like, I'm a high school math teacher, like I did my teacher's ed for high school math, we were never, first of all, we didn't do any math, obviously. So there was, there was no math being done. We had to like, hand in lesson plans and stuff, but like, that was kind of it. So I'm kind of like, I don't understand where teachers are supposed to learn this. Like, are we basically saying like, okay, you went to school for X number of years as an elementary and high school student, you were taught in a way that is no longer like en vogue to teach anymore, so you can't teach that way, but don't worry, you're in teacher's college where you're not going to learn how to teach at all. But then when you go into the classroom, please find your own resources and figure it out? Like literally, is that what's happening?

Brittany Hege 9:36

I mean, that was my experience. That's really what it felt like. And I had a fantastic experience in college, I love the university that I graduated from, and their teacher ed program is great. And ultimately, cause it's really what, three years that you're working in your major? You cannot prepare a teacher for every subject level, every grade level, over six grades, seven grades. That's just impossible to do. And actually it's really two years because that last year you're student teaching. So it's just not going to happen. But yes, that was my experience. I went into it thinking like I was really prepared and I learned all of the like best practices and things. But when it got down to actually like, what am I going to teach today? I did not know how to do that. I did not have the understanding needed to do it. Like I knew how to structure my lesson and all of that. And so some people will say like, I don't know, some people put a lot of emphasis on the pedagogy, and I absolutely think that is so important. But I also feel like there has to be time for teachers to explore the math that they're teaching. One, because I think it increases, their excitement and their passion for what they're teaching. But it increases their confidence and allows them to apply the principles that they're working on, as far as you know, all of the work that Peter Liljedahl is doing. Like, if they have the content knowledge, it just makes it a little bit easier to apply the other stuff. I don't know, that's just, again, my experience, the teachers that I'm working with, that's what I'm seeing. But the fear of the math that they're teaching is really real. And it, I think it gets in the way of being able to apply other things, other practices in the classroom.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:06

Well, I think that's such a powerful statement. Oh my God, I keep saying powerful, it's like the word, every interview I'm like, that's so powerful. So anyways, it was though, it was a very powerful statement. And I

How to support teachers

Vanessa Vakharia 11:17

say that because like, you know, this is a podcast about math therapy and healing math trauma, not just for students, but for educators and anyone who's listening. And I always think a lot of teachers genuinely are scared of the math they're teaching, they're not confident around it, but it's usually because there is like a math trauma and a lot of anxiety around math. So how do it's the chicken or the egg. How are they going to learn the math that you're, you're there being like, look here, let me help you understand fractions better. But they kind of have a mental block of being like, but I can't. Do you find that with teachers when you're kind of like, look, I'm providing you with all these resources to understand the math deeper? Do you ever find that there's a block where they shut down before they even get there?

Brittany Hege 11:53

So I think I'm in a little bit of a unique situation in that I work with teachers who come to me. And so they are open enough to say like, I need help, I'm here. And so that's definitely like a privilege to be able to work with people who are already like bought into the idea that there's more for them to learn and they're willing to get uncomfortable and step into that. So I don't necessarily have to like push back on that a whole lot, but I will say, I think that, one thing that's like really core to me and to Mix and Math is I think we can teach teachers and create learning opportunities for teachers in a way that make them not feel bad about themselves. Or the fact like, Oh, you didn't know this yet, like you're a teacher, where you were supposed to know this. Like, I think we can just come in in a very I don't know if like humility is the right way, but like not talking at them, but just inviting them into this learning experience. And being like, oh my goodness, this is what I discovered today, I cannot wait to share it with you, and that's automatically you're going to get very different buy in than "here's the best way to teach this and you're not teaching it the best way". And like, I believe that's so core to me. And I actually really think

Vanessa Vakharia 13:03

I love.

Brittany Hege 13:04

that's like a problem in professional development right now is it's a lot of like, this is best practice, you're not doing it, versus inviting them into exploring it alongside you.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:16

Oh my God. I, I, First of all, I love that you said that and it's validated how I've been feeling because, well, you know all my timetables drama, and I've been feeling lately that like things are, are so polarized because, okay, so like very quick story. I did a segment on live TV, this is after the initial drama, being like "I'm back to talk about how there are so many different ways to get math facts stored in people's brains. And one of the things I want to talk about are the amazing patterns in the nine times tables". It's a four minute news segment. I show the nine times tables finger trick. I show that every digit adds up to nine. All the hosts are like oohing and aahing. They all hate math, and they're like, Oh my God, this is amazing. I leave. Great. Cool. I get two emails. The first email is from this woman being like, I hated math my entire life, I'm 80 years old. I was so into this, this is so cool. Like, does this trick work for other digits other than nine? Like, what we want! We want mathematical curiosity. We want wonder. That's what we want. Then I get an email from a teacher being like, I just want to let you know I've been following you for years. And I was really disappointed to see this. I wanted to share it with my staff, and as soon as you said that there was a nine times tables trick, I couldn't show it to them, it's so damaging, Like you know, like that, or you were saying some great stuff on the news, but as soon as you said trick, the nine times tables trick took over and that's all people are going to see and it's just so damaging. Then I saw somebody repost it on Instagram being like, The Math Guru says that the number nine is special, but we disagree because all numbers are special. It's important to know why this trick works. And then did this whole very clever reel on why the trick works, cool. All of this could have just been, great, Vanessa, that's one way that will engage some learners and it's cool to know, and here are some other ways you could use alongside that should you choose to, and should the recipient be interested. Oh my God, sorry. This is, this is like a solo episode now. And Britt, just, everyone knows, Britt is like nodding so understandingly, like has therapist eyes on, she's just like, okay. Anyways, but I just feel like this is what you were saying. It's like, why are you framing it as I did something wrong? Did I do something fucking wrong? Did I do something wrong by showing the world a really cool pattern in the nines? Tell me!

Brittany Hege 15:20

That's the thing. You revealed a pattern. Like I actually heard something, it said math is the science of patterns. And I love that. Like I love viewing math as just like, exploring patterns, because that's really what it is. And so you revealed a pattern. And when we see those patterns and we show students that, and then we say like, why does this work? Like, that's a great conversation to have. I see that you're using your fingers to help you with the nines. Do you know why that works? Let's explore it. And as you're doing that exploration and having that conversation, you deepen your understanding even further about the nines. But I think it gets back to the way that all of that was handled, just as a society, this is probably outside of math, but as a society, I feel like sometimes we can be so harsh and judgmental and it's like, can we not just explore and have conversations together? Like, yes, of course, speak out against practices that are truly harmful for students and teachers, but outside of that, can we not just have beautiful math conversations and explore and discuss and be okay being wrong? And when we are right, rather than having to like project that we are right, instead invite people in to explore and have the same aha moments that we had.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:36

Ugh. Preach, preach, preach. And on

Direct instruction: WTF?!

Vanessa Vakharia 16:39

that note, what I'd like to talk about is your view on direct instruction, explicit instruction, and how everyone is like fucking going bananas over it. Like, this is one of those practices where I'm like, half the people are like, no, it's so harmful, and the other half are like, no, it's not. What do you think here? Like, is it really harmful?

Brittany Hege 16:57

Anytime, like, we're having discussions about really just anything in life, I like to define the terms initially. Because what one person can say, like, especially with these polarized words, one person can view it in one way, and another person can view it in another way. And if we are arguing about the same word, but we're viewing it completely different, like, that's just not beneficial. And so I don't even want to like necessarily like use that word because people view it differently. But if we're talking about a practice where we are just telling students how to do math, so, we are teaching adding, subtracting, and fractions. Today's day one, let me tell you how to do this. Watch me, this is exactly how you do it. You find a a common denominator, and then you add the numerators, and then, you know, whatever. If we are doing that, that is not the approach that I believe research says is effective. It is not what I believe to be effective, it's not what I've seen to be effective. But there is a time for, I like to call it, explicit connections", so I am really big about using a bunch of different representations, letting them explore, and then obviously we want to not just like leave them in that, like, oh, we've explored all these things. It's like, okay, what did we learn from that? And we are intentionally guiding students to make specific connections here. Like, okay, so we just, we were talking about the algorithm initially, right? When we, you know, added these, I saw that you had to make exchanges with your pattern blocks. Um, why do you think you had to make those exchanges? Well, because we can't talk about these, like, it's kind of like when you're adding, like, two bananas and three watermelon, you don't say, like, I have five watermelon or five bananas, if you have to find a common unit to describe them, so we have five fruit. So we have that discussion and then it's like, okay, look at this person who maybe they did use the algorithm because they've been taught that. It's like, how is what they did similar to what you did? So we're being relatively explicit in the connections that they're making. And that is the approach that has been really helpful for me in my learning of the research and looking at, I mean, it's consolidating when we're talking about, like, Peter Liljedahl's work, like, that's what that consolidation process is, is kind of like, guiding students, yeah, bringing it together, that synthesis. But there are times where we do have to specifically tell students certain things, like, they are not going to magically discover, I don't know, that you put a decimal point between the one's place and the tenth's place. It is a convention. So there are certain things that are conventions. They are just, it is the way it is. And those are things we have to just directly tell students. And I can't remember if I said this already, but like certain algorithms, like the way that we set up an algorithm, a student is not just going to discover that. But when they have the conceptual understanding, they understand why this works, why when we multiply, we can find partial products and things like that. Then we say, here's another way that you could organize your thinking. So to say like, never direct instruction, there is time where students need more direct instruction, but I find that that typically comes after students have built conceptual understanding but, I'd like to really focus on more explicit connections rather than explicit instruction. I think that embodies more of the approach that I take.

No shame in the classroom

Vanessa Vakharia 20:15

This is really interesting because I'm really trying to like dig deep into my own math experience. I definitely think I was a product of this way of teaching where like I could really follow the rules and the formulas. It's not that I didn't understand, but certainly, whenever I had to do like one of those math contests or something where there's no rules like you're really just thinking, I couldn't like answer a single question. And I think that actually did cause a lot of anxiety for me in terms of like, even now I feel so threatened, you know, when you're out at a math conference, like one of these ed conferences and like the presenter's, like, and now we're all going to like think, pair, share and work on this like weird ass fucking problem. And here's what happens every time I start trying to like do the thing by algebra. They're like, well, you're using algebra, but there are other ways to look at it. And I always feel like I'm getting in trouble because they want me to do something like more creative and like move some like boxes around and like discover that the square roots is like actually has to do with the square and because I didn't, I'm not really a mathematician. Like, I actually feel there's so much shame around this explicit instruction conversation, almost because like I learned that way then it doesn't count. So that's where I'm like, you're right, I agree that like, a true understanding is obviously more important than just learning algorithms and formulas, but I actually wonder if a lot of math teachers are being shamed and like almost developing new math trauma at this stage of their career.

Brittany Hege 21:40

Yes. I mean, there is never a place for shame in teaching. Like shame is just not a helpful emotion to get to change practices. Like it's just not. And so again, this kind of goes back to the same discussion of like, rather than saying like,, "That's the wrong way to teach it". Why can we not just have conversations about like, okay, this is one way to teach it. But what happens when your students don't get it that way? Do you have other strategies or ways to approach it? And if you don't, like, let's explore that together. I think it may have been Julie Dixon who said like, you know what? I'm not even gonna try and quote her because honestly, I'm the worst at quoting people. I always butcher their quotes, but something. She was basically just talking about the importance of teachers doing math. Like, we can't grow in math if we are not doing math ourselves. And so, I hate that you experience shame around that. It doesn't surprise me. I know there's plenty of teachers who experience shame around that. But I think it's just, that is one way, and there are other ways to do it, but you have to be given the opportunity and a safe space to explore that for yourself. And explore that along student alongside students.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:49

Mm

Challenges for teachers & tutors

Vanessa Vakharia 22:50

hmm. Well, and it's also interesting because I feel like I have such a different role. I know you and I, like, talk about this a lot of, like, I'm no longer a classroom teacher. I taught in the, I taught in the classroom for a very short time, quite honestly. I have been tutoring for 20 years. And because I'm a tutor, my role is, when a kid comes in for their one hour of the entire week to learn the entire unit that they didn't understand their teacher explain, I have to figure out the fastest way to teach it to them. Now, this is unfortunate. This puts me in a very tricky position. Would I love to sit with that kid for hours and explain how everything works? A hundred percent. But usually a goal, the goals of the parent and of the students are, I want to feel better in class and not be anxious around math. And I want to get a higher mark. Those are the goals, right? So like I wouldn't say my hands are tied because I feel like there's a lot of freedom in what I do, but I feel my approach has to be different. And usually it actually has to rely, at least partially, on direction instruction to get through it as fast as possible. So I almost, I'm like, okay, at the very least, I can get the student like going through the motions of solving, you know, here's how to factor a quadratic, just follow this pattern, just follow this pattern. And once they're feeling a bit confident, I can then start explaining to them why it works. But I actually find if I only have an hour in the week, I have to start with the explicit instruction, otherwise within 20 minutes, they're feeling so lost, they're feeling like they've made no progress and they have to get out of there in an hour and know how to do something. So like, I think I come at it from that way. And I see people like completely taking down tutors on online and just kind of being like, this is such bullshit. And like, what are you really doing? And it's like, well, there is a role for everyone. And like these kids have access to one hour a week. That's what they, they can afford, that's what they have access to. Depending on what your goal is with the student and what that student needs, like you have to be willing to adjust and not to just shut down something entirely because like the internet is against it.

Brittany Hege 24:47

Yeah. So, first, I just want to like validate that that is a really hard position to be in, and I've experienced this too, when I go into classrooms and work with teachers and work with their PLCs, and I'm not there long term with that teacher or that school, and I go in and work with their students, it is really hard to sit down and be like, I want to help you, but the amount of time and experience I know it will take to get you to really understand this concept is like much longer than this 20 minute math center. And so that's a really hard challenge. It's not something that I've necessarily figured out yet, like how to best support the student in such a short fragmented amount of time. But I think it's important to recognize too that like in a perfect world, students would truly understand, like deeply understand every single math concept they face in the classroom. But the reality is with all of the standards and all of the pressures and short timeframes, like that is just not doable. And so really looking at like those priority concepts, like, I don't even, not even going to pretend to know like what the standards are like in Canada, but in here and we're talking about upper elementary, fractions is huge. And that is something that carries through middle school, high school. So when I'm working with a teacher and I'm like, if there is one thing, like one area you really want to grow and really want to grow, go deep with students, it is fractions because it impacts so many other things. So I think it's also prioritizing,

Vanessa Vakharia 26:12

That's a good point.

Brittany Hege 26:14

And also getting really clear on your goals. Like, as a tutor, you have to meet the goals of the parents, or of the teachers, whoever's setting those goals. And like, their goals may be different than what the goals you would choose for that child. And that's okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:28

Totally. Totally. And also I feel like I'm like, I'm basically negotiating what every teacher out there is doing through my students. So like, right, I'm dealing with 400, I have like 400 students. So I have 400 different teachers with different expectations and different like ways of teaching and approaches and ways to navigate each of those. I honestly feel like you're giving me therapy at this point. I'm so sorry.

Brittany Hege 26:53

Well, you came on to my podcast and gave me therapy, so it works out.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:59

Oh my god. Okay, this has been so fun. Like, this has flown by. I also feel I've interrupted you quite a bit. Did you, David's nodding and just being like, what wrong with you? I'm so sorry, Brittany.

Brittany Hege 27:13

You were fine. I always love talking to you.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:15

But I, did you even finish your last thought?

Brittany Hege 27:19

Oh yeah, I think so. I'm, I'm typically am finishing thoughts like mid sentence. I saw a meme the other day that was like, are you the wife that has like a conversation with yourself in your head and then brings your husband in like on the last 20 percent of the conversation? And I was like, oh, that's me. I'll just randomly be like, and then we're going to go here. And he's like, what? I missed something. So I

Vanessa Vakharia 27:43

So what would you say? I mean, I want to ask a couple of final questions.

Power of curiosity & community

Vanessa Vakharia 27:47

What would you say, I'm asking you this question and then I'm going to ask the last two questions that are quick. What would you say to a teacher who's like, yeah, I, I really agree with this. And I feel like in order for me to be a more confident teacher and like a, you know, less anxious teacher, I really do need to make peace with the math that I'm teaching and learn it more, but I don't have any time. What's the one thing they could do that would move the needle there?

Brittany Hege 28:08

That they don't have any time. Okay, if they don't, if they truly do not have any time, although I will say, I truly believe that exploring the math saves you time in the long run. But if you truly do not have a single second of time, like, get curious about what your students are doing. If we are always telling students how to do and how to think, you're always going to see work that is exactly like mimicking exactly what you're doing and what you're telling them to think. But if you give them a problem and let them explore it, you know, students intuitively know a lot just from life experiences. Like, uh, one of the 5th grade standards is fractions as division, and that, like, 2 3rds is 2 divided by 3. Well, a second grader could figure that out because they have experience sharing two cookies with three friends. So like give students those opportunities and then just be really curious about your students work. So look at how they approached it, think about how you would approach it if you couldn't use an algorithm, that alone will allow you to kind of like deepen your understanding of the math or see it in a different way. So that's the first thing. And the second thing, I'm like, we are in the day and age, that just made me sound so old. We're in the day and age where there is so many online communities. And obviously I'm biased, like, you know, follow me on Instagram, join the Upper Elementary Math Teacher's Facebook group, read a blog post, look on YouTube, there are so many, and now granted, you have to find a community that feels safe to you, and that is encouraging, but just join, and listen, and allow other people's passions to maybe like spark your passion and your curiosity about, oh, is there another way to teach this. I feel like I'm constantly just randomly doing math on sticky notes because I'll see something, I saw it on your Instagram, you posted something about the algorithm for dividing fractions, I think, and I immediately pull out a sticky note, I'm like drawing pictures about it. So, I think we have to get to a place where we're willing to, like, accept that we may not understand it the way that we want to, and then just, I've used the word curiosity a million times, but I just feel

Vanessa Vakharia 30:13

But I love it.

Brittany Hege 30:14

Yeah, just how, why does this work? I have no idea. Let's explore! Like, I feel like that is just my math life.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:21

Well, I will use the word I always use and say that was very powerful. Okay. That was very powerful, Brittany.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 30:27

Okay. I'm going to ask you the last two questions but this has just been so illuminating and truly cathartic for me. So thank you so much. The first is what would, if there was one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?

Brittany Hege 30:41

I wish that it was more visual, like more hands on. I wish students, rather than learning math, were experiencing math. Yeah, I think just making it more visual, whether that is with pictures, whether that is, um, with manipulatives. I'm big on manipulatives. I love manipulatives. So, there are probably a million things that are really important to change. This is just the one area I'm very passionate about.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:08

Love.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 31:09

What would you say to someone who was like, that's so cool, really great story, like, I would love to get more confident with the math I'm teaching, but like, I'm just not a math person.

Brittany Hege 31:23

I think I would say, I don't know if I would say this like in person, but what came to my head is like, I'm really sorry the experiences you have had have made you believe that. That's like deep in my gut what I would want to say. I don't know that I would actually say that. Um, I don't know. I don't know why this is such a hard question.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:40

I think nice to say. I think you should say that. Well, I'm not here to tell you what to do, but like, if you said that, I think that's like, really validating.

Brittany Hege 31:49

You know, I think it was maybe Chase Orton who said, you may not have been good at math class, but that does not mean that you're not good at math. Like distinguishing like math from math class. I love that. So maybe in my more eloquent days, I'll be able to validate their experience and also tell them like, math is so much different than what you likely experienced growing up. And then I would invite them to come sit in my office and do math on sticky notes with me.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 32:23

I love that. Okay. You are the best. This has been so fun. I can't wait to hang out in real life. Um, Thank you. Thank you so much. You're amazing.

Brittany Hege 32:33

Aw. Well, thank you so much. It is, like, such a joy to get to talk to you, and to meet you, and I know you hate goodbyes, so I can be the one to say goodbye.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:42

Thank you! David's giving me the eye. Thank you, Brittany. You are my therapist! You're my math therapist.

Brittany Hege 32:50

Hey, I, I will take that title.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:53

You go.

Brittany Hege 32:55

Well, thank you for joining another episode of the Math Therapy Podcast. We'll talk to you later.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:03

Bye.

David Kochberg 33:06

Beautiful. Professional!

Vanessa Vakharia 33:10

I just want to start by letting everyone know how hard it was for me to not start this episode with "it's Brittany, bitch". Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I am obsessed with Brittany, guys. Like, capital O obsessed. I loved everything about this interview, and I feel like I walked away with so many gems, and quite frankly, that was kind of the math therapy I needed when it comes to all of the math related bullying I've been getting on the internet. I think the biggest takeaway for me is that there's no one right way to teach students, because every student is different. If we can lean into that, then we're already doing way better than we have in the past. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us @maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally @themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.

Outtake

Brittany Hege 34:27

They are not going to, magically discover, I don't know, that you put a decimal point between the, um, one's place and the tenth's place. Like that is, there's a word for that. What is it? A,

Vanessa Vakharia 34:40

What is it?

Brittany Hege 34:41

What's it called? Um, I just blanked on it.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:43

I don't, I certainly don't know. I wouldn't, I don't think you're going to blow my mind with whatever it

Brittany Hege 34:48

There, hold on. There certain things that just are the way they are.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:53

Oh, is that the word you're looking for, for certain things that are the way they are?

Brittany Hege 34:57

Yeah. It's just,

Vanessa Vakharia 34:58

Facts?

Brittany Hege 34:59

No, it's not that. Hold on, this is probably going to get

Vanessa Vakharia 35:02

Oh, notation, notation,

Brittany Hege 35:04

um, no.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:06

David!

David Kochberg 35:07

I don't know, I need more context.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:08

Give us more context.

Brittany Hege 35:10

I don't know. It's just,

Vanessa Vakharia 35:11

Okay, a decimal point between two numbers, what's another example of this thing you're talking about?

Brittany Hege 35:15

or like rounding, for example. When we round, like the fact like a five.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:20

Rules?

Brittany Hege 35:20

No, it's a, Ah!

Vanessa Vakharia 35:23

rules, conjectures, uh, format, um.

David Kochberg 35:28

You're saying random words.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:29

Here, film

David Kochberg 35:30

don't think understand what she's actually saying.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:32

Well, I'm, I'm, I'm waiting until she says it's like that. Like, I'm waiting for her to be like, oh, you're close.

David Kochberg 35:37

Well let her explain the whole example.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:39

Oh, okay.

Brittany Hege 35:40

it's, um,

Vanessa Vakharia 35:41

She's stuck.

Brittany Hege 35:43

I know, I cannot, I'm going to be able to pull it out.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:45

Here, Dave film, can you get some content for fuck's sake? Okay, hold on. Hey Siri, what do you call Okay, hold on, hold on. Siri needs to get on this. One second.

David Kochberg 35:56

But you don't even understand what you're asking.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:58

Shh!

David Kochberg 35:58

You just keep interrupting her.

Siri 36:00

Sorry about that.

David Kochberg 36:02

Yeah, exactly. Siri agrees.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:04

Hey Siri, what do you call it when there are certain rules in math?

Siri 36:09

I found this on the web.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:11

Expressions. No, that's not it. I don't know. Britt.

Brittany Hege 36:14

I'm, I'm, I'm looking at ChatGPT. A convention! Oh my gosh.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:19

Convention! She looked at ChatGPT. That's what I was gonna do. What was your prompt?

Brittany Hege 36:23

What is the word that is used in math education for things that are just rules like a five rounds up?

Vanessa Vakharia 36:28

That fucking ChatGPT.

David Kochberg 36:31

This is what you wanted me to film.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:32

This is good content! Anyway, sorry, Britt, as you were saying.

Brittany Hege 36:36

It's a convention. It is a convention.