​Intro

[00:00:03] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay guys, today we maybe have one of the craziest episodes ever, like no hyperbole, I swear. Let me start by saying that the Math Therapy team went to prison for PI Day. Like we crossed the border into Michigan and went to prison for Pi Day. Okay. I just want to like, get that out of the way, but okay, let me back up. 

Some of you might remember season 3, episode 10, when I interviewed Christopher Havens, a convicted felon, who's currently serving a 25 year murder sentence. Now, like the story is crazy. You have to listen to the episode, but in short, Christopher Havens was in the middle of a 25 year sentence, he's in solitary confinement, and somebody passes an envelope of math puzzles under his door. It forever changes his life, and he is now in the process of rehabilitating with math, and he has started the Prison Mathematics Project, which is an organization aimed at helping inmates across the US rehabilitate with math. Obviously listen to the whole episode because there was way more to it, but that's a short summary. 

So Christopher and I have kept in touch over the past few years, and it has been a goal of his to actually bring Prison Math Project to inmates, IRL one day. But the barriers have been crazy. I mean like first there was COVID, but additionally, we learned that it's shockingly hard to get most correctional facilities to actually agree to allowing the prisoners to receive any more than the bare minimum when it comes to education. But this year the stars aligned and one prison called the Bellamy Creek Correctional Facility in Michigan, agreed to let Prison Math Project host a Pi Day celebration for their inmates. 

Okay. So you're probably like, that's great, but how did you possibly got involved and that's a great question that I ask myself every day, no joke. And the simple answer is Christopher asked me to host it. Trust me, when I got the call, I was simultaneously like, absolutely yes hell no, but I knew deep down, this was something I had to say yes to, no matter how scary or new or weird it sounded. And I knew I wasn't going to do it alone, obviously. 

The second I got off the phone with Christopher, I begged Sabina and David, AKA the O G Math Therapy team, to agree to this crazy adventure with me, and they said, yes. But like truthfully, I think David said yes, just because he was terrified of what would happen if he said no, and I was left to fend for myself, like cruising on into a prison, wearing full velvet with no one there to chaperone me. But guys, I'm so glad we all just trusted our intuition because we literally had a life-changing experience I know that none of us will ever forget. 

So luckily for us Sabina, AKA, the true reporter she is, brought along a handheld recorder, and we documented the before and after of our time on the inside, as they say in the movies. I'm going to play you guys what we recorded and then I'm going to pipe in here and there to fill in the blanks. So what you're about to hear first is a recording of us in the car on a six hour drive from Toronto to Michigan, headed to Bellamy Creek Correctional Facility on March 13th, the day before Pi Day. 

On the road to Michigan

[00:02:57] Sabina Wex: Okay. We just wanna go on the record about how we're feeling about going to jail right now. David, do you wanna explain the context? I feel like you're good at it. Yeah. 

[00:03:05] David Kochberg: Where are we off now we are suddenly representatives of the Prison Math Project.

[00:03:10] Vanessa Vakharia: That's correct. 

[00:03:11] David Kochberg: Having a year or two ago conducted an interview where Vanessa spoke to inmate Christopher Havens who rehabilitated himself with mathematics. And he invited Vanessa to MC tomorrow's Pi Day celebrations at Bellamy Correctional Facility in Michigan.

[00:03:31] Vanessa Vakharia: What's the vibe fam? 

[00:03:33] Sabina Wex: How are we feeling in general?

[00:03:34] Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm feeling, I will say at the beginning, like the weeks leading up, I was like feeling kind of stressed and nervous about it. I was kind of like, oh my God. I have no idea what I'm doing and I still feel that way. I have no clue what I'm doing. Like, are they gonna hate me? Or am I gonna say something offensive? Like that kind of thing. 

[00:03:49] Sabina Wex: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:49] Vanessa Vakharia: But I have to say, as I've been speaking more and more to Christopher and he's kind of just been like, listen, no matter what happens, it's going to be great. no matter what, we're on an adventure. We've never done this. So that's very cool. 

Number two, regardless of how it turns out, we are well intentioned and we've done as much research as possible and asked as many questions as possible, and we're, this is what the podcast is for, this is like why we recorded the episode. 

And also I just feel good that you guys are here. You know what I mean? So I'm, I'm kind of actually now in the phase of like, yep, who knows what's gonna happen, there's only so much you can organize when you're dealing with prison, like there's only so much you can organize and know beforehand. I'm kind of like excited for the adventure.

What about you? 

[00:04:28] Sabina Wex: Yeah, I agree. Leading up when you called me I was like, this sounds like a shit show, this is gonna be so bad. We're gonna drive eight hours for no fucking reason. Like we're gonna be in there for literally 30 minutes,

[00:04:37] Vanessa Vakharia: Which still might happen.

[00:04:38] Sabina Wex: It still could happen. But now I'm like, it's just really weird. And honestly, I'm very interested to see what happens. Yeah. And I do, I do have a good feeling about it. And like, I think it's gonna be like, we're so nervous. We keep being like, we have stuff printed out for the border guards in case they ask, we are so prepared for the prison guards when they like need to take stuff from us, but I feel like they're just gonna be like, come on in. Like, I could be totally wrong. I've never been to a prison before in my life. 

[00:05:05] Vanessa Vakharia: Same 

[00:05:06] Sabina Wex: Or a jail or anything. 

[00:05:07] Vanessa Vakharia: And we're going to an American. You have?

[00:05:09] David Kochberg: No, I don't think I have.

[00:05:10] Sabina Wex: None of us have been to prison. So it's definitely a new experience. And like you said, American prisons, like there's all this baggage. I really don't know what to expect and I don't think we could really prepare anymore. Like I think we just have to go. 

[00:05:20] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.

[00:05:21] Sabina Wex: And just act like our normal selves. 

[00:05:23] Vanessa Vakharia: Which is hard because we like also, I will say I did have a full dream last night that we went to the prison, but it was like our band was playing and there were all these people there and Christopher was like, oh, you don't need a mic. And I was like, how's anyone gonna hear me? There's hundreds of people. And then I also said to both of you, I was like, I was really scared someone was gonna put me like in the hole cause that's what you hear about always. And I was like, if you don't see me in 10 minutes, like come look for me. But it wasn't like a scary dream actually, but like I did have a whole dream about it. 

[00:05:47] David Kochberg: So you dreamt that during a show you got placed in solitary confinement? 

[00:05:51] Vanessa Vakharia: No, but like I didn't, but I was scared I was going to, and I like told you 

[00:05:54] David Kochberg: Because your performance wasn't good enough? 

[00:05:57] Vanessa Vakharia: No, I, 

[00:05:58] David Kochberg: Because you committed a crime during the show? 

[00:06:00] Vanessa Vakharia: Just the concept of the hole, like when I was talking to Christopher on the phone, yeah, yesterday he was like, 

[00:06:05] David Kochberg: He does keeps saying, he does keep referring to it as the hole 

[00:06:08] Vanessa Vakharia: Like he was talking about, he was talking about this guy, Travis Cunningham, that he wanted that apparently he is gonna be there. And he was like, he was like, yeah, he's actually really taken on this role and he's like doing all this math stuff on his own. And we couldn't get in touch with him for two years because of like all of the red tape of the prison system and how hard it is to get in touch with inmates. And he was like, and their mail wasn't working and he was like, and for a while I thought maybe he was in the hole. And I was like, wait. I thought that was just in movies, like fucking Murder in the First with Kevin Bacon. Like that's actually so scary. Yeah. That people get put in solitary confinement. Like, I thought it actually really creeps me out. 

[00:06:41] David Kochberg: Yeah, there's a, I think a lot of controversy around that. I mean, this is a, a much broader conversation, but yeah, if the whole point of a corrections facility is to help rehabilitate prisoners, but how much actual rehabilitation goes on. But that's what's cool about being involved in an, an event like this. And that's what's cool about what Christopher does with this project, is that it is proactively trying to do something to help rehabilitation. Mm-hmm. So that's why it is cool to be involved and like make this trek. 

[00:07:11] Vanessa Vakharia: I feel like we're gonna, I'm nervous that I'm gonna get really upset when I like, see how little they're allowed to do. Like Christopher's always talking about how it's so hard to actually mobilize this thing because, so the reason we're going to Bellamy by the way, is not because he's there. It's because it's one of the few prisons in the entire system that will allow educational work to take place, which is actually really upsetting. And he's not allowed to do this in his prison. 

[00:07:37] Sabina Wex: Yeah. I'm also worried about being like, I'm deeply upset by the state of this. 

[00:07:43] David Kochberg: Well, I don't think we should be getting too emotionally invested.

[00:07:46] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, but how do you not, it's like when you see a homeless person, like, I get upset right away. 

[00:07:51] David Kochberg: Yeah. I'm not saying you shouldn't care, like we're going because we care, but I think we don't know anything about any of, these people, the prisoners that we are going to meet. 

[00:08:00] Vanessa Vakharia: Right. 

[00:08:00] David Kochberg: And you can't have the context on all of them. who knows what they've done and how they've ended up in prison, and that's not really our place to be figuring that out. 

[00:08:12] Sabina Wex: Yeah, I agree. None of us are gonna be like, what did you do? Like that's not the conversation we're having. 

Okay. Do we have anything else we wanna put on before we get going?

[00:08:21] Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, the best thing we can do is just get comfortable with uncertainty at this point.

[00:08:25] David Kochberg: Yeah. It's just an interesting learning experience. And in terms of the actual prisoners there, likely, they have very boring, regimented lives, I mean, Christopher was saying like, this kind of thing doesn't happen that much. They don't get right visitors or speakers ever, if at all, and not often. So I'm just looking at it as, well, I mean, you're gonna do all the talking there, but you 

[00:08:50] Vanessa Vakharia: Feel free to pipe in. 

[00:08:52] David Kochberg: Well, we'll participate, but like you are the host. 

[00:08:54] Sabina Wex: Yeah. 

[00:08:54] David Kochberg: Like you're the MC. We're here as part of the team. 

[00:08:56] Vanessa Vakharia: Sure. 

[00:08:57] David Kochberg: But yeah, you're the whole point of rehabilitation or of this project, the Prison Math Project, is to humanize prisoners and yeah, we don't have to or want to know why they're in prison, but they're in prison. And the whole point is to not just give up on people because they've done something like they made a mistake earlier in their lives. And as far as we need to analyze it in advance, it's just we're doing something to help brighten their pi day and give them something a little different in their lives and maybe be a tiny part in giving them a bit of hope. And if they're showing up to this event, then they're probably interested in math, so you're just playing a part in facilitating that interest level and just a tiny little thing that can hopefully help in their rehabilitation journey. But yeah, otherwise there is no way to predict what it's gonna be like. Which is cool for us, like that's just an interesting experience that we otherwise would never have had. 

[00:09:56] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah. The thing I'm most scared about actually is just how early it is.

[00:10:00] David Kochberg: But you're a relatively early bird. 

[00:10:02] Vanessa Vakharia: No, but like, it's like we have to be there at like 7:15 in the morning, like that's early. 

[00:10:05] Sabina Wex: Mm-hmm.

[00:10:05] David Kochberg: Yeah. I'm terrified about that part. 

[00:10:07] Sabina Wex: Yeah. 

[00:10:08] David Kochberg: But I feel like I'll be, so, I'll be so tired, that then I will be, I'll be too tired to be like stressed, I guess so. 

[00:10:15] Sabina Wex: Oh, that's a, that's a good idea.

[00:10:16] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, that's a good point. And also this event is two and a half hours. It's so quick, like, I'm kind of nervous it's gonna go by too fast.

[00:10:23] Sabina Wex: It's okay. We'll do some more debriefs. We'll do, this is great.

[00:10:26] What happened in prison

[00:10:26] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. Wow. It's so crazy to listen back to that now, and to think of how young and innocent we were when we're walking through those prison doors. I mean, like I'm half joking, but I'm half serious. Before I tell you guys what actually happened. I need to clarify by the way that the border guard did not just let us cruise right into Michigan as Sabina suggested. First of all, I get so nervous every time I crossed the border, like, I don't know if it's just me, but you're just like, oh my God, they're not going to let me in, whatever. 

And especially on this occasion, because I was like, our story is insane. So we're about to go in and the guard's like, why are you going? And we're like, well, it's actually PI day tomorrow, like March 14th. And he's like, k, whatever. And we're like, we're going to teach math to inmates in a prison. And he, he goes, "why?". And we're like, because we, like, we, it's PI day, and we're volunteering to teach math to the inmates. And he's like, well, why you? And I'm like, oh, like I'm a math teacher, this and that. And he's like, are you making money? And I'm like, oh no. And he's like, "so then why". 

Have you heard of volunteering? Anyways, he finally, like, I was like, dude, listen to how cool this is. And then I told them all about Christopher Havens and he like, I don't know, he like raised an eyebrow, he seemed kind of interested. And then he was like, k, whatever, go in. Anyways. Now that we've clarified that, here's what PI day in prison actually looked like. Okay. So I'm just gonna explain to you guys what happened. 

So, first of all, we got there March 13th, we got into Michigan and we're, we need to be at the prison the next day at 7:00 AM. Okay. Basically the inmates only have two and a half hours. the event starts at eight and ends at 10:20, so they can be back in their cells for count at 10 30. So we got there on March 13th, like in the evening and we're meeting this guy, Ben, who works at Prison Math Project. He flew in from Atlanta, he's like a 22 year old math major, and he's the PMP representative. So he's coming with us. So his role is to do actual math with the inmates. My role is like to pep talk them and MC, we have a couple other speakers which I'll tell you about. And then Ben's role is to do the math. 

So we meet Ben and we go out for dinner, and we're like so Ben, what are you planning on talking to the inmates about? And he's like, "have you guys heard of Hilbert's hotel?" And we're like, no, what is it? Guys? I'm actually gonna post video of him trying to explain it to us on Instagram, just go watch it. He starts explaining this concept of like infinity and like, Like I think the first thing starts with like, let's pretend you have a hotel with infinite rooms. Okay. You have infinite rooms and they're all full. Okay. All the rooms are full there's infinite rooms and a guest shows up to the hotel. How can you make room for them? 

Very fascinating, but like, we had no fucking clue what he was talking about and he's like this and that and the other thing, and like, he's, he, he has no paper and Sabina is losing her mind. She's just like, what are you talking about? Anyways, this will come in handy later. So just remember that we were all just like, what are you talking about, this is insane, like good luck with the inmates tomorrow.. Fine. 

We leave dinner. We're all excited for the next day. Me and David are like, we need to get more pies because we were bringing pies and coffee to the inmates. We go to a local grocery store and we're stocking up on like 20 pies. And the cashier is like, why is everyone buying pies today? And then I'm like, oh my God, wait, everyone's buying pies? And she's like, yeah, mostly teachers. So then we tell her it's pi day. We're so excited. I was just like, oh, I love that this whole town of like Ionia, Michigan is like getting into PI day. Fine whatever. Got up the next morning, we go to Starbucks to get like all of these coffees, we have like four giant carafes of coffees and we're on our way. 

So we're driving and like, keep in mind, it's so early in the morning it's kind of dark. And I want you guys to imagine this because I think I still have this image in my head of how alarming it was that like we're driving and it's like a small town and we're like, oh, I wonder where the prison is. And then all of a sudden. Like imagine, like Jurassic park theme song, the music and all of a sudden it's like kilometers of barbed wire, but like that razor wire, like just silver glaring, razor wire, and like the biggest, like hundreds of giant floodlights. And we were just like, we're here. And it's like sprawling. There's like all these buildings, but like, it was just so alarming to see that silver razor wire, so much of it, so much of it. And these giant, giant, giant floodlight. 

Okay. So we got there and like we got checked in, we meet Dave Dirks. Who's our amazing facilitator there. We get checked by security, I'm sure you all want to know what thoughts like, and they did check under our tongues. So we had to like open our mouths, look under our tongues and we had to take our socks off. Oh, and we weren't allowed to bring anything with us. Like not even a pencil, not even a key. I was allowed to bring in my chapstick, thank God. 

Okay. We go in and we walk into basically what looked like a high school auditorium. And there are the inmates and like they're seated at tables, like in rows as though it's a classroom and they're just sitting there silently. Um, well-behaved seems like a really weird word to say, but that's like the first thing that struck me, like, I don't know what I expected, but probably like something from Orange is the New Black, because what else do I have to go on? 

And they were just sitting there smiling. We went in, we put our stuff down. And I was like, I guess we'll start. And basically I just, I don't, I . Can't remember what I did, but I do remember I started by just being like, I just want everyone to know that I'm really nervous right now. And they all laughed and I was like, okay, they're laughing at my jokes, this is a good sign, like everything's going to be okay because that's how I usually feel when someone laughs at a joke of mine. And so we started, we started and basically the structure of the day was I gave pep talks, I talked about growth mindset, I'll tell you more about that later, but I basically just talked about why we were there. 

I gave mathematical pep talks, I talked about math anxiety and then it was interspersed with video chats from Gary Gordon and Sunil Singh. And then Ben, Ben Jeffers, our pal, taught them math. So I'll talk about, a bit more about the math he did, but he did like Hilbert's hotel, the infinity thing, and then he did another math problem with them. And we actually did math. We ate pie, we drank coffee and then it was done. And then after we were finished the event at 10 30 in the morning, we got a bit of a tour, we learned some stuff about Bellamy Correctional and we left, immediately, got in the car, hit the record button because we wanted to capture exactly how we felt the second we left. 

Thoughts on our way out

[00:16:34] Sabina Wex: Okay. We just came from the prison, Bellamy Correctional Facility. We're leaving the parking lot at the moment. I see a watch tower. I see barbed wire. 

[00:16:43] Vanessa Vakharia: Like so much. 

[00:16:45] Sabina Wex: Yeah, we're just coming out of the Pi Day. It's 11:21. Not only did we do our Pi Day, which we had to wrap up at exactly 10:20 because there was a count that the prisoners have to be in their cells for at 10:30. Um, but we also got a tour of the facility, so we have a lot to debrief on. The three of us, the OG Math Therapy team. How are we feeling guys? Vanessa, David?

[00:17:07] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. So I need to start by saying thank you guys. Seriously. Like I really, I really wanna just start by saying thank you guys so much. Remember we weren't even gonna come and we were like, this is gonna be a shit show. And like, all of these questions and like, I'm not gonna speak for you guys. You guys are gonna speak in a second, but I have to say, like, I, I wouldn't have come without you, and I'm so fucking glad I did because that was such a special experience. So, but seriously guys, thank you. Like that was beyond what I ever, well, like I didn't even know what to expect, but it was a million times better than what I didn't expect.

[00:17:39] Sabina Wex: Yeah, it was a lot better than I expected. And also I think in a weird way, I felt very anti-climatic. Like I think we were like so nervous, unsure what was gonna happen, but it was actually just like almost any other talk I've seen you do, Vanessa. Like that's what was cool. It was just actually pretty normal.

[00:17:56] Vanessa Vakharia: I would say the audience was more receptive than my normal audiences. It's hard to not go into it with like, I'm sorry, but like we were just completely influenced by media. So our, yeah, perceptions of what jail is gonna be like, of what an inmate is gonna be like. All of those things were in my head before and I think it was like I don't know, when I was talking about like. Has been a gatekeeper for so many and so many of us are just taught we can't do things like so many of them are just like nodding along.

So I think it's like one of those things where it's like, yeah, I sometimes am like, oh, am I pushing it too far? Like you know, in a math talk, talking about this kind of stuff. But I actually just think like, this is why we started Math Therapy. Like this truly is, math really is something that at its core, can oppress or empower people like I really believe that.

Mm-hmm. Okay. David, sabina, you guys go. 

[00:18:45] Sabina Wex: David, what are your thoughts? 

[00:18:46] David Kochberg: More than anything, I guess I feel like humbled by the experience. Mm-hmm. There's a lot to process because there's, yeah, there's like a room full of guys who are in there, some have been in there for decades, some will be in there for decades and like who knows what each of their stories is. But today, like without exaggeration, could be the highlight of their year, which is insane for us to think that way. But just knowing, like, yeah, hearing from some of the other people, like some of the staff, there's, this stuff doesn't happen. Like this is not, this is extremely unique. They don't get visitors in and certainly no one brings Starbucks in like, 

[00:19:34] Sabina Wex: Oh, they seriously, they were stoked about the coffee. They kept being like, oh my God, it's so great you guys brought coffee and I was, don't you have coffee in here? And they're like, it's instant, so this is so good. They were so excited, that's why they were all hyped to try the oat milk. 

[00:19:47] Vanessa Vakharia: I'm sorry. I just still think that was the highlight for me, is someone going, wait, they're milking oats now? And Sabina being like, yeah, you should try, you know, if you're lactose intolerant, a great alternative. 

[00:20:00] Sabina Wex: And it was just like I don't know David, if you noticed this too and Vanessa maybe you did too, but when David and I were like at one point handing out, we had brought in some pies and cookies and coffee for the inmates and we were like handing it out to them. Cutting it up for them. Cause I think they're actually not allowed to like touch it even. Right. Because we weren't even allowed knives to cut the pie.

[00:20:20] Vanessa Vakharia: What were you cutting it with?

[00:20:21] Sabina Wex: Like forks. 

[00:20:21] David Kochberg: There was one spatula 

[00:20:23] Sabina Wex: Yeah

[00:20:23] David Kochberg: That, the guy had brought out. 

[00:20:25] Sabina Wex: And they were like, oh my God, thank you so much. And they individually like thanked both of us for coming and for doing this and for bringing stuff. They were like so grateful. And I guess I didn't realize how big a deal it was for us to come there. Right? Like obviously it was, I was more thinking about myself being like, so I'm coming to prison, like this is dangerous. But I was like, this is a big deal. This is a way bigger deal to you than it is to me. At first we're like, ha, we're going to jail. How crazy is that? And now it's like, like David said, like this made your year, or for sure your day or your week or something thing like. 

[00:20:57] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah. And I think also too, I was like, ugh, I don't want to be this annoying like savior coming, like, you know what I mean? 

[00:21:03] Sabina Wex: No. 

[00:21:03] Vanessa Vakharia: Like, yeah. Like us being like, oh my God. Like it's hard to like, take, not center yourself in the equation of being like, 

[00:21:10] Sabina Wex: mm-hmm

[00:21:10] Vanessa Vakharia: We're going to do this thing, da da da da. And I was so worried about saying something offensive or coming across as like, oh my God, I'm some cool person because I've decided to come to prison. And I really didn't wanna come off that way. Cause I really was actually like, I'm actually thankful you're like sharing your time with us. Like we're just some randoms coming in here talking to you about math.

[00:21:28] Sabina Wex: Yeah. I felt so grateful to them. I was like, wow, this is a big deal for you to come out and do this. And also like just when they were doing the math problems, when you were talking, when even with all the videos, they were so engaged, so respectful, like really wanted to hear about it.

[00:21:44] David Kochberg: When this first came up, I think all of us were kind of skeptical. And, but I'm so happy that we came because it was a fascinating life experience that mm-hmm I would never have otherwise had. And I think it really was extremely eye-opening to like see what even the, the slightest hint slice of life for a prisoner on the inside of a facility like that. And just to be in the same room with a bunch of actual people it sort of humanizes the idea of inmates who are in for a very long sentence. 

And yeah, we can't make too many assumptions or inferences about each of their stories. But just seeing them today, I mean there's lots of problems with the system and like the guys who are working in the shops that we saw like working an eight hour day every day for like three bucks. Like that's fucked up. 

[00:22:39] Vanessa Vakharia: No, $2 and 62 cents. 

[00:22:41] David Kochberg: Well, yeah. 

[00:22:41] Vanessa Vakharia: Maybe $3 Canadian a day. 

[00:22:43] David Kochberg: That's true. 

[00:22:44] Vanessa Vakharia: Three a day. 

[00:22:45] David Kochberg: I know that's fucked up, but looking on like, on the positive, how he's saying they all love being in there. Yeah. Because the alternative is that they would just be in their tiny cell, which is like, probably like the size of this car. Yeah. And just having no hope or purpose whatsoever. And so like that's what's really meaningful to like even just a, be a support role for you MCing today, 

[00:23:11] Vanessa Vakharia: You guys were a part of it. You guys probably actually interacted more individually. Mm-hmm. One-on-one with them than I did. Someone was like asking about like your engineering degree, like all of that stuff, like 

[00:23:20] David Kochberg: Yes, so he was, I think he was saying he's like early twenties and he he's so young. Was incarcerated when he was 19 and he was saying how he's like always been interested in engineering and he really liked math and science when he was at school. And like, I have no idea what put him in in prison. But he was saying that he's going to be going home this summer, I think, which I assume that means like his sentence is up and so he was asking me if there's a barrier to pursuing a career in engineering and like, I have no idea, but it's crazy to think like this kid, he technically could have a new life ahead of him. 

[00:24:04] Vanessa Vakharia: Right. 

[00:24:04] David Kochberg: But can he? I don't know. Like, I don't know how, what the integration system is, but I was speaking to our, our host about that and, and like he'll have a parole officer and it does seem like they've got a lot of systems at this facility to actually help rehabilitate the inmates if they have good behavior and, and if they are committed to it 

So the guys that we all met today they're all level two, so level. Is very high. She's the highest in security. Yeah. And she's like, the level five is like on lockdown basically every day because there's like fights and they're like, last week there was like a stabbing and they had to like set, but these are like, like that really happens. Yeah. But these are, so that's like the maximum security. These guys that are at level two and they have a lot more freedoms because they've established a lot more trust. 

[00:24:57] Vanessa Vakharia: Could they have started at level five and moved down to level two? 

[00:25:00] David Kochberg: You can move up or down. Right. It's obviously way easier to move down. Like these guys are all at level two, but like they can fuck up and be bumped down to level four and lose all their privileges. Okay. Yeah, and it's crazy. Like there's a sign in the shop that they showed us around and so they get tickets and like, it's like a point, like a demerit system basically. You get a ticket for, misbehaving basically. And if you get it enough, you can be bumped down to a different level. So like writing in a textbook, you can get a ticket for it because you're not allowed to deface property, stuff like that. 

[00:25:34] Vanessa Vakharia: It's kind of ridiculous, 

[00:25:35] Sabina Wex: I feel like, cuz it's, they think they're gonna send a message out or something.

[00:25:37] David Kochberg: It's true. Yeah. 

[00:25:38] Sabina Wex: And like it was interesting even the way, like I found, the way that inmates were spoken about was really, wait, what were they saying? Weird. Like even that sh So we went to the area where there's a lot of guys who do like, shop, like they make cabinets and stuff for Habitat For Humanity, which is really nice, but the guy there was talking about, because, I was like, oh, they make these beautiful like birdhouses gorgeous, gorgeous things they were making in shop class. And I was like, oh, why can't they just bring it to their selves with them, like as a decoration or kind of like a reward to be like, oh, look, you made something really impactful and you can keep it and it's yours.

And they're like, oh no, like they're gonna take one strip of wood and turn it into a shank and like, duh duh. And like, I'm sure that happens. I don't wanna be like dismissive of that. But I was just like, oh my God, this is really like, you're always thinking the worst. I guess you kind of have to, but yeah, that's like a tough one.

[00:26:30] David Kochberg: Yeah. I think unfortunately it's, it is justified like, like that's from experience. 

[00:26:34] Sabina Wex: Sure. I'm sure. Like I've never obviously worked in a prison. I've never even been to a prison till today, but I was just like, oh wow. What a hard thing to do, to go in somewhere, you know, you've obviously done something enough that you have to be put in prison for it, and then you have all these people basically being like we assume that you are gonna hurt someone else, and do something bad. Like basically really like not even giving you the benefit of the doubt. That was hard to hear, even though I get it. I was just like, yeah, ugh. This is so, 

[00:27:05] David Kochberg: Yeah, it's dehumanizing for sure. And none of us are experts in, because yeah, it, what else can you do?

[00:27:12] Sabina Wex: Yeah.

[00:27:12] David Kochberg: Like if someone said, like we were in a room with of people who probably have murdered people, which is crazy to think, but then also I.

[00:27:20] Vanessa Vakharia: I can't even wrap my head around. Yeah.

[00:27:22] David Kochberg: But then also, like we were also at the same time in a room with like a bunch of guys who were just really nice and friendly and polite. 

[00:27:28] Sabina Wex: Yes. 

[00:27:28] David Kochberg: And, and had a great time talking about math for a couple hours, so it's like crazy disconnect, but then mm-hmm in terms of like, what, what can society do differently? That's a way bigger question beyond our knowledge or ability. But that's why I just tried to go into it just thinking, what can we do ourselves to just like make their day a bit better? Yeah, and I think we've very much did that in a lot of ways. We can't think too far ahead in terms of what is their whole life. 

[00:28:03] Vanessa Vakharia: Right. 

[00:28:04] David Kochberg: But even just for one day, because yeah, they don't have a whole lot of dignity in there. Right. So I think that something that feels good is that we treated them with a lot of dignity and respect. Which I think probably meant a lot to them. 

[00:28:18] Vanessa Vakharia: I also like makes, think of like, I don't know that John Mighton meant this, of course I have to bring him up. But, like he's talking about it in a different way, but he talks about how math is the great equalizer and, like just the idea of mathematical thinking as the great equalizer. Like in that room we're talking about math and we're like the conversations are like, oh wait, that's such a cool way of thinking about it. And like, how did you come to that solution? Like, it's kind of like everything else fades away and you're like, we're all just talking about how to solve a problem together. Yeah. Which is like very, it is kind of the great equalizer because actually a lot of them knew more about math than I did.

[00:28:49] David Kochberg: Yeah. 

[00:28:50] Sabina Wex: Well that's what was cool, was like Travis, who is kind of the main PMP guy at this prison, when he first got in, he was really unfocused. He was young too, he was 19, he was, you know, angry, whatever. And math gave him like such a sense of calm and purpose and order. And now he's like this exemplary inmate, he's become like basically a totally different person. And it's like, oh, maybe this should be a rehabilitation program in more prisons, which is, I know what PMP is trying to do. But it's like, wow, like, I don't think people would necessarily put math and prison together.

[00:29:24] Vanessa Vakharia: No, never. It would be like the last thing, and people always would assume that like, we do that with math anyway, we'd be like, there's no way they can understand it, like they're incapable, like it's too advanced. Whereas like it's kind of the opposite, like, I'm sorry. When the shop guy was telling us about why they can't let a, an inmate take a pen out, it's because they'll take the pen apart and to turn the coil into something where you can boil water and then they'll turn the other part into like a tattoo gun. They are some of the most creative thinkers. 

[00:29:51] Sabina Wex: Yeah, and they're like so scientific and even that guy who came up when Ben was doing his fucking crazy infinity Hilbert's hotel problem, and this guy just comes up and did the answer, like had a way of thinking about it where I'm like, you got it? Like this took not no training obviously, but like you're thinking deeply about something like you can get there, which is so cool. 

[00:30:13] Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah. 

[00:30:13] Sabina Wex: And even Ben was saying like the problems he was giving them, he's like, yeah, what's good about these problems is you don't actually have to have technical training. 

[00:30:19] Vanessa Vakharia: Right. 

[00:30:19] Sabina Wex: But you can problem solve them, which I thought was really cool. 

[00:30:24] David Kochberg: And it was a cool mix between and what Ben was doing and what your approach is because he's presenting these like complex mathematical problems. And you are also balancing that like it's okay if you have no idea what he's saying, because even if you are trying to think about this ridiculous nonsense exploration of infinity, you're thinking about it. And that in itself is a good activity to just be like challenging yourself to think and you can only imagine how absent that opportunity typically is for them to just be like thinking creatively about just an interesting problem for its own sake.

And that was cool that you gave Travis an opportunity to stand up and speak about his story briefly, and then also field questions because you could see some of these other guys who maybe would've been hesitant to participate or get up and speak or something like he can be a role model for them and create a bit more connection and sense of community and maybe for them to think about themselves differently. Like you gave up a bunch of really great pep talks as you typically do. Cause yeah, like we've heard you give the, or I certainly more than anyone have heard you give like a lot of these, speeches or pep talks many a time. But it was especially resonant and, and like pretty crazy for me to think about like what these, the implications of the lessons that you're sharing with these guys who they're the people that society forgets the most. 

[00:32:07] Sabina Wex: When we were hanging out with them. I was like, I didn't really think of them as prisoners necessarily, like once we got to know them a bit.

[00:32:12] Vanessa Vakharia: Me neither. I actually couldn't put the two together. What David is saying, it's like, yeah, that disconnect. I'm like, yeah, I know cerebrally that we were in a prison and you've committed a crime. Plus exactly like when you hear about this stuff, which is the only way we interact with it, if you hear about it on the news or something, it is completely dehumanized or the person is painted in a very particular way that is so incongruous with what we just saw, so there is a lot going on there. 

And also obviously now I'm like thinking about all these things I wished I said, so we just won't even get into that cause Exactly. We'll go into my imposter syndrome. 

[00:32:44] David Kochberg: No, no, no. 

[00:32:45] Sabina Wex: You were great. You were really good. Everybody was super into it and like, staff were so excited. The inmates were so excited. Like everybody was stoked. Everyone liked it. Like the warden came to us to be like, this was great. This sounds like it went really well.

[00:32:59] Vanessa Vakharia: Well, hopefully the word spreads, I hope this is one of those things where everyone's talking about it enough that like, they're like, oh fuck, like it sounds like this is actually really good. Yeah, 

[00:33:08] Sabina Wex: I'm sure those prisoners are gonna go tell their cellmate to be like, oh, I just did this cool thing.

[00:33:13] David Kochberg: Yeah. Everyone was appreciative, like the inmates, but then also the staff. 

[00:33:17] Sabina Wex: Yeah. 

[00:33:17] David Kochberg: They were all really appreciative of us coming and doing this. 

[00:33:23] Sabina Wex: Okay. Shall I stop recording? 

[00:33:24] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. Yeah.

Reflection - growth mindset

[00:33:25] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. Did that make any sense to you guys? I feel like we're like all shell shocked and just feeling very like contemplated and existential about our first time in prison. But seriously guys, it was such an incredible experience, and we've all been thinking about it every single day since March 14th. And I wanted to share some of the reflections and thoughts that I've been having as I processed how grateful I am, I mean, we all are, to have been given this opportunity. 

The first thing I want to talk about is when I got in there, so after I finished telling them I was nervous and stuff, I . Started by saying, "who's here for the math and who's here for the free pie". And they honestly, like a few of them were there for the math, but a lot of them were just like, yeah, we're just here from the pie, like, we don't know anything about math. And then I asked who had math anxiety and a bunch of them raise their hands. And I know, you know, I always think it's so cool, like, often I give talks to teachers and students, and I always think it's like very courageous to actually raise your hand and, admit that, right? It can be something people feel very self-conscious about. 

And I feel like it really warmed up the room for everyone to sort of, like keep in mind there were people in there that don't even have their high school diploma. Right? And we know how pervasive math trauma is, and I'm sure, convicted felons, like any other segment of the population definitely have a high proportion of math trauma and math anxiety. So I thought that was really, really amazing. that we could start off the day by saying, yeah, not all of us are here for the math, not all of us are comfortable with math, and some of us have math anxiety. 

And that opened up the floor for me to talk about my experiences and to say, hey, that's normal. It's normal for you to have math anxiety in here and on the outside or whatever. Like this is a common thing. People have math anxiety and it has nothing to do with your capability to do math. And I think that was a very important message. I explained that I suffer from math anxiety in situations too. It doesn't mean I'm not good at math. And that shouldn't preclude us from trying. 

So then I actually talked about growth mindset and I actually hadn't planned to, like, I actually didn't plan anything I was going to say, because I just like that's who I am. But. as I started talking about it, I was like, oh my God, we take it so for granted especially in education, we assume everyone like just knows what growth mindset is. Right? Which I actually think is a problem because I think we use the term a lot and a lot of people say it, but they don't know exactly what it means. 

And these inmates definitely didn't know, who would have told them about growth mindset, many of them, right? So I thought it was so powerful to talk about our actual brains, that we have neural pathways that you know, we can change, the way we see ourselves as capable as of math, we can change our responses to math. But what we were going to be doing that day for two and a half hours, while it was math, I kind of was like, it's going to show you guys that we can change. Period. That our brains can change. 

And one of the coolest things that happened is that the end of the two and a half hours, I said because, oh my God, Ben had ended with his Hilbert's hotel thing, okay, so everyone was just like, what the fuck is going on? I was like, Do your brains hurt and all of them were like, yes. And I said, you have all thought one or many more new thoughts in the past two and a half hours, it is proof that you can think of things a different way, it is proof that your, your brain is different now than it was at the beginning of the two and a half hours. And, and it was just everyone just cheered. It was like the coolest thing, because that's what I always say about math. Like, I don't care about the math, like fine, it's cool. But through teaching math, through helping people feel like an inch more capable of math, you are showing them that they have the ability to change, to grow, to think different ways, to develop new habits. 

Like, okay, I'm getting like all like worked up now, but I I was really glad I went on that tangent because I was like, this is what it's actually about. And what was so funny is, as I told you guys, only some of them were there for the math at the beginning, but by the end, they all were, all of them were like, yep. I want to sign up for Prison Math Project. They all started like, coming up with things they were interested in. Like, you know what I mean? Like some of them were like, yeah, I've always been interested in science and in solving puzzles, another inmate who had a Scorpio tattoo, so I'll call him, Scorpio was like, "you know what, when I was in school, I could never really pay attention to stuff, and I always got in trouble for not showing my work, but I've always been so curious about how things work. And do you think I can get an engineering degree when I'm out of here?" And he was actually one of, one of the inmates that got up in front of the whole group and, you know, was trying to solve a math problem. And he was like, "hey guys, here's how I tried to solve this problem. I got stuck at this step. Can anyone help me out?" 

So I'll talk about more about the math later, but I thought it was so cool that all of them are kind of like, wow, we have felt the tiniest inkling of growth. We have been challenged to think in a way that no one believed in us to think before, maybe? It was just a very, very cool thing, and I, it kind of made me wonder, what does this tell us about the way we teach math? And about the relationship part of teaching math. What does it tell us that we walked into a room of inmates, most of whom do not think of themselves as mathematically capable and by the end of two hours, all of them were interested in learning more. What does that tell us about the way, you know, somebody, an instructor at the front of the room, or maybe not at the front of the room, makes it clear that they believe in their audience and in their students. So like just, I was left thinking all of those things. 

Reflection - Collaboration

[00:38:53] Vanessa Vakharia: Another thing I thought was really interesting is so when Ben taught the, so Ben asked this question, okay, you guys will probably like it. The first problem, the first math problem we worked on, he said, "so you guys have six different flavored pies, like apple, peach, blueberry, whatever. How many different orders can you eat them in?" Now, some of you might know that the answer is six factorial, but most of them did not know what a factorial was. No, some of them did because actually, uh, one of the inmates there, Travis Cunningham, he's been a part of the prison math project for a bit of time. And he does six hours of math every day in his cell, and he was there saying, "if you guys have questions about how I got involved, or you need math help, come up to me". So he did know, a couple of them knew, but like most of them don't know what a factorial is. Again, they don't have high school diplomas a lot at them.

But what was so fascinating is, and you hear this a lot about sort of asking questions like this, where there are many different entry points. This could be considered I think, a low floor, high ceiling exercise. You could know what a factorial is, you could know the formula to solve it, but you also can work it out. Right? You can logic it out. It might take a bit of time, but you can. And it was so funny when he asked that question, every single person went to work. Some people didn't know what to start. Some people, we encouraged people to get into groups and to talk. Some people were trying to figure things out. You know, Scorpio was like, oh, I knew the formula for this at one point. And I was like, forgot the formula. Let's think about it. How would you figure it out? Some of them were making tree diagrams, charts, slots. Like there were so many cool ways of watching them all try to solve the problem. And that was what the, one of the coolest things was like. 

It reminds me of Peter Liljedahl a bit to be like, when you focus on the thinking, right? Like forget what the right answer is, when you just focus on thinking and collaborating, and curiosity and wonder they were all in flow. They were all doing it. And then when Ben was like, who wants to come up and show their work? Most of them did not have the quote unquote right answer, but they were all happy to come up and show what they had done and to see if anyone could help them build on that, to get to the answer. There really didn't seem to be much ego or much like embarrassment of getting the wrong answer. It was the curiosity, it was the trying, it was the thinking, it was the collaborating that was kind of on display. And I thought that was really, really cool. Because again, like, in school, things are so different. We're so focused on getting the right answer, we're so focused on marks. It was interesting to see when you take that away, what's left is true mathematics.

Reflection - Creative thinking

[00:41:19] Vanessa Vakharia: Okay. So the other thing is when Ben brought up Hilbert's hotel, okay, whereas me, Sabina, and David had been like, what the fuck, Ben? These inmates were all into it. Actually, one of them had an infinity tattoo, which I thought was so cool. Their minds were blown. Now, okay, look. If you ask a question like a hotel has infinite rooms, they're all full and a guest shows up, can we fit them in? Right. Like in a normal math classroom, people are going to be like, what's the answer. They were like, the questions they were asking were great. 

some of them were like, what kind of hotel room is this? Like, one of them was like, that's like maximum security prison, anyways, whatever, prison jokes. But like people, they were really contemplating it. They were really trying to solve the problem and their minds were blown and they liked it. They loved how hard it was, they loved how challenging it was. Again, like it wasn't about getting the right answer. It was about being like, wow, I'm feeling my brain grow. Like I'm learning things at my table from other, you know, my peers that like, I've never thought of before. It was just very, very cool. 

Also, I have to tell you guys this part. So we mentioned in the recording that we went to like visit this like factory thing where they all work in. And the shop teacher showed us a pen, he like pulls out a pen and he's like, you could never leave this pen, like lying around. And we're like, why? And he's like, because they would take it apart, they would turn the ink into a tattoo gun, they would take the coil out of the pen and they'd figure out a way to hook it up so it boiled water, and I'm sitting there thinking holy shit, are these the engineers of our time, right? Like it's like the creativity, like it's it just blows my mind. 

Look, I know we're talking about inmates. I know we're talking about like something specific, but to me it just shows that the most overlooked people in math are often the ones with the most creative ways of thinking, the most non-traditional creative ways of thinking, aren't those the people we need in STEM fields. Like aren't those the people we should be encouraging to think, to think out of the box to like, I don't know, it was just, I thought it was so cool, but I was also like, yep, this is why we are missing the mark when it comes to math. 

Oh, another thing I was thinking is. cause we all left and we were like, they need math therapy, like, see what happened in two and a half hours, like, you know, everyone learned their brains could grow and there was such high morale. And I was like, why do we have art therapy, but not math therapy. It's because we don't think people are capable of mathematical thinking and the opposite is true. It's like it is therapeutic to challenge your brain. It is therapeutic to show yourself you can grow and learn and think in a way you can't, or you've never been able to, like that is therapeutic. 

When you're not results driven, when you're not saying the only important thing is the right answer, when you're not doing it for marks, mathematical thinking can be spiritual. It can be meditative. It can be beautiful. It can be empowering. And that reminds me of what we're really missing. You know, Travis Cunningham, the inmate I told you about he's in there for another, I think 10, 12 years, he's the one who has been doing math every day for six hours. he kinda got up in front of everyone and he said, I know this might sound ridiculous, but you know, once I started doing math, I really started seeing beauty in it. I really found it spiritual. I really found it to be a meditation. And Christopher Havens said the same thing, and I think math can be so oppressive, so traumatic, or it can be so healing and so empowering. 

Reflection - rehabilitation

[00:44:35] Vanessa Vakharia: I guess like, my final reflection is just, you know, I'm not going to get into all of their backgrounds and we certainly don't know all of their backgrounds and stories, but I remember Christopher Havens has said this to me on our episode of the podcast that like, certainly it's not because he had a bad relationship with math or was like excluded from the math classroom or anything like that, that he committed a crime. 

But it is a common thread. I heard this from a lot of these inmates that they had sort of been overlooked. They were directionless. No one really believed in them and you know, Christopher has said this, that he ended up getting involved with like a bad crowd and doing drugs and doing his thing because he just wanted it to be cool, he had no confidence. And I really wonder, like, again, I always think of math as so much more than math. It is a divider between those who can and those who can, it is the arbiter of who's intelligent. It's, you know, uh, a symbol of who belongs and who's deserving. And what if we, what if we took that a little more seriously? 

I think that's why it was so amazing. We were only there for two and a half hours. I don't want to be like, oh my God, we're these crazy saviors and we changed their lives. No. But I hope that that two and a half hours of knowing someone believes in you and knowing you're capable in something you might've been written off from made a difference. 

Conclusion

[00:45:45] Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I have new thoughts every day, but I guess what I'm really left reflecting upon is how are we getting it so wrong? Just watching 25 inmates, some of whom don't even have a high school diploma working together to eagerly and curiously solve a university level math problem just did it for me. When grades aren't involved and relationships are built when collaboration is encouraged, when everyone is invited to the table, that's when the most meaningful math happens, and when the most math learners are able to blossom. Yet that is the complete opposite of what happens and what has been historically happening in most math classrooms. Anyways, that's a rant for another episode, but for now guys, I have to say thank you for listening and thank you for letting me outer process straight to your ears, I needed it. 

As I mentioned earlier on the episode, every single one of the 25 inmates, we spoke to filled out a Prison Math Project for them to be matched with a math mentor, which is amazing, but daunting for an organization that currently runs on volunteers and incarcerated members. So, if you want to make a donation, be a math mentor or volunteer at some other capacity, Head to prisonmathproject.org. They would love to have you. 

Thank you so much for listening. I mean, I've so many other reflections. I'm sure I didn't cover everything I could have, so if you have a question, post it in the YouTube comments on this episode, tweet me at The Math Guru or at Math Therapy, head to Instagram at The Math Guru and comment on a post related to this episode. I would love to answer your questions, and you will find the website to Prison Math Project plus, oh my God, we have some pictures from the day because there was a photographer there. You'll find that all in the show notes for this episode. 

Thank you for listening, stay tuned, and happy belated Pi Day!

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