Intro

Deborah Peart 0:01

You are all readers, writers, mathers. You are a reader because you read for fun or information. You're a writer because you write stories using your imagination, and you're a mather because you use math to make sense of the world.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:16

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. So last year I was at NCTM, which is one of the biggest math conferences in the world, and I saw this woman speak and I was like literally drooling all over myself. okay, not literally, that would've been super extra, but mentally drooling. Seriously, she is the first person I've ever met that's as into mindfulness and math as I am. And seeing her speak blew me away, so I had to have her on the pod. Her name is Deborah Peart and she's the founder and CEO of My Mathematical Mind. She's dedicated her entire career to supporting educators with innovative teaching strategies that allows students to see themselves as assets to the learning community and as the curious problem solvers they all are. One of her coolest innovations is the Mather movement. You know how people that read are readers, people who write are writers? Well, Deborah wants us to all consider ourselves "mathers". We had so much fun discussing inclusivity and math education, the connection between numeracy and literacy, and so much more. So let's get into it, here we go.

What is a "mather"?

Vanessa Vakharia 1:41

Deborah, we are here. We have made it. I, first of all, welcome to the podcast.

Deborah Peart 1:47

Thank you. Glad to be

Vanessa Vakharia 1:49

Okay. So as you know, I'm very nervous because I feel kind of fan girly because ever since I saw you speak at NCTM I've been like, oh my God, there's somebody else that like, feels so in line with what I'm thinking in math ed, and that's very, very rare for me. So I've wanted to have you on the podcast since then, but I kind of wanna back up because before I actually saw you speak, I was in a bunch of presentations at NCTM and I kept hearing, like I don't know if you know this, but people kept being like, and as Deborah says, "mather" blah blah. Like you were referenced, I'm not kidding, like Zak Champagne referenced you within two minutes. Like. first of all, I didn't even know who any of these people were, and I was also like, who is Deborah and what is this Mather thing? And I, I want you to tell us, why don't we just start with what is a Mather? Why are you so cool? You don't have to answer that part, but like what? Tell me about the Mather movement.

Deborah Peart 2:40

All right, so Zak is one of my favorite people, and I think it's funny that you mentioned him because he was one of the first people that I went on my rant about math not having a verb with. So we had this whole conversation and we were like, what is it supposed to be? And I was like, well, readers read, writers write. Hello, mathers math! Math deserves a verb. So we kind of laughed about it, but then I decided I, I'm gonna do something with this. I'm really serious about it. I mean, Bootylicious made it into the dictionary. Why not Mather, right?

Vanessa Vakharia 3:16

Is it?

Deborah Peart 3:17

It, yeah, it actually is you know,

Vanessa Vakharia 3:19

What's the definition of it?

Deborah Peart 3:21

Look, don't make me get on this podcast and make things up now. I just know,

Vanessa Vakharia 3:26

Go on. Go on

Deborah Peart 3:27

That because of a Destiny's Child song, Bootylicious made it into the dictionary. So I'm thinking we can get a word in the dictionary. Mather simply means a person who uses mathematics to make sense of the world. Different from a mathematician because you have to study for a long time to actually become a mathematician. But a mather is just, I'm mathing, I'm doing it, and no one can take it away from me. So that's how that got started, because we think about, reading is a thing we never stop doing. Writing is a thing we never stop doing. But then we think about math and we are opting out after the last required class. So it was important to me that not only children, but adults actually have a term to continue to embrace math as a part of their identity without the pressure of being a mathematician.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:17

Okay. I mean, I'm freaking out right now. I have a thousand things to say, but I also just don't wanna say anything cause I feel like we should just end the podcast now cause you've said everything. We drop the mic and we're done. And I'm gonna go tweet Merriam Webster, is it in the dictionary yet or It hasn't happened?

Deborah Peart 4:31

Mather? It's not.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:32

Okay. But now this is our new, we're, we have a mission. I now have my own personal, it's your mission and I'm not stealing it from you, but I'm very supportive. I also, like will say, I have tweeted Merriam Webster on several occasions, number one, because I wanted them to change the definition of the word "guys".

Deborah Peart 4:51

Mm.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:51

not be doing it, but I was, I, I was like, I want you to, I just want a way for us to change it so it is not attached to a gender. And then also because I have a huge issue with their definitions of success and failure, and that's in every dictionary. I just decided to pick on Merriam Webster, but we can get into that another time. But the point is, I don't like how they are literally listed as antonyms. Like why are they listed as opposites? I think that's so damaging. Anyways, the point is I'm not above tweeting a dictionary.

Deborah Peart 5:20

I mean, go for it.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:22

I will be going for it.

Mather vs Mathematician

Vanessa Vakharia 5:24

So let's, let's back up for a second. There's so many things you said that are really interesting and I wanna just first even touch on the idea of the real difference between being a mather and a mathematician. Because it's true, every time I tell someone, you know, I have a master's in math ed, or I am a math teacher, they're like, are you a mathematician? And I'm always like, I mean, at first I was kind of, I'll just say yes. Everyone wants to categorize you and I couldn't find another category, so I was like, fine, yeah, I'm a mathematician. But I was always like, ugh, no, I'm not, like, I'm not Matt Damon in Good Will Hunting, I'm not the guy from A Beautiful Mind. Can we talk more about what you think it means to be defined as a mathematician? Like what does the word mathematician mean?

Deborah Peart 6:04

Well, for me, I actually looked it up to compare. And it talks about studying mathematics to the highest level, solving problems. Like, I tell people all the time, I wrote a blog post about it, I am brilliant, but I'm not a mathematician. In high school, the last math course I took was trigonometry and the teacher never showed up. So technically I got an A in trigonometry for doing packets and making A's on tests that I prepared myself for. So if I say I'm a mathematician, inevitably someone says, "Ooh, can you work with my niece? She's in college taking", and names some college math course, "and I love it if you could tutor her." No, no, no. That's not what I do. So for me, I started questioning, am I a mathematician? And that's actually why we started the hashtag Black Women Rock Math, because we were specifically looking for Women in math education, which I think is not viewed the same as being a woman who's a mathematician. So I'm still processing and doing research and thinking about it. But I think Mather would keep people in the conversation longer. Because to have people with PhDs say, I'm not a math person, kind of blows my mind a little bit. But if you're rejecting being a mathematician, then what do you hold onto?

Vanessa Vakharia 7:30

Well, I think that's such a cool way of putting it, and I think I heard you say this somewhere, that the term mathematician is really tied to the notion that doing math is for the elite and the term mather makes it clear that it's simply about literacy, that it's for everyone. And I think it's funny because there have been so many, I remember when I was writing my thesis, one of the big projects, this was like 2010 ish, and I remember one of the big things happening at the time were, um, researchers were going into classrooms and they were saying to kids, draw me a picture of a mathematician. Did you hear about like this, right? And you'd always, kids would always come up with the same thing, like old white guy, pocket protector. Like it was a very defined term. Whereas the thing I like about Mather almost, I mean, I like a, a ton of things about it, but it's like, you are defining it. You made it up.

Deborah Peart 8:15

And the irony of that is that when I looked in the dictionary to see if it already existed, this may sound a little crazy, but I was thinking, I am a black woman, and I look up the word mather and all I see next to it is cotton. So I'm thinking, this is interesting because I might be triggered maybe, cause like oh, oh, wow. But it's because Mather Cotton was a name. So even in trademarking it, and I had to kind of overcome the hurdle of it being a surname, and that was the only context in which I found the word Mather.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:57

Oh my

Numeracy = Literacy

Vanessa Vakharia 8:58

god

Deborah Peart 8:58

Yeah, it was, it really, it was, it was quite interesting, When you think about the enslaved and there being anti literacy laws, and it was illegal, but there were no anti math laws. Because I just think it's so far out of reach that there was no need to write laws about it because even women weren't invited into mathematics historically. That's just again, a noticing of mine. So,

Vanessa Vakharia 9:26

I'm freaking out, I'm, no, the literacy piece I think is really interesting.

Deborah Peart 9:32

Well, for me, I think about what it means to be literate in America. And to be literate, it's all about using written language, spoken language to function in society to make sense of the world. So I was thinking that a nice addition would be, and use mathematics to make sense of the world, or to be numeric, or to be a problem solver and use mathematical reasoning. Because I don't think people would run around saying, "well, I don't really do math", if it meant you are also saying, "well, I'm basically illiterate". I think that there's something about not saying, "I'm not a reading person, I don't really do words", because you wouldn't say that because it would mean you're saying you're illiterate. But if you also had to be numerate and a problem solver that maybe we would take it a little more seriously that everyone should continue to be a mather.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:32

Well, I love that and like, when I, was, I, I've, you know, I heard you talk about this stuff, and I was like, right, we call it numeracy, like it has its own term apart from literacy, which I actually think is maybe damaging, right? Because like so much of what I, I find so fascinating about you and your work, and we'll talk more about mindfulness later, but I think it's all tied together with this idea of using language to define your reality in a way. And like language can be so oppressive, because language is defined by a certain group of people and it is assigned by a certain group of people. Oh my God. Wow, that, I didn't mean for that to rhyme, now I'm, yes, I'm feeling

Deborah Peart 11:07

Defined and assigned.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:10

But it is, right? So Even this idea of like, the word mathematician is going to be defined as such, and it's going to be assigned to chosen people by a select group. Like this whole idea of hierarchy and the elite and all of this stuff is like, ugh, right. But when you think about the fact that you're like, no, I'm gonna redefine my reality, I mean, in this case by literally the creation of a word, but even the way we're talking about literacy. Like, okay, so if we give numeracy its own term and it's not under the umbrella of literacy because it's like, no, it's numeracy skills, then it just becomes less important. Whereas like if we just included it as a part of literacy, like like you're saying, okay, now I'm just repeating what you're saying, but I'm just having this moment. Um, it's so smart and so obvious and also so simple.

Deborah Peart 11:53

And I think if we don't start helping people see the connections, then we'll continue to send resources to develop early literacy, and early numeracy stays on the back burner. Even in teacher ed programs, and in professional learning for teachers and educators, we focus a lot on literacy. Which is very important, but early numeracy, and I wish I had it right at my fingertips, but there was a study done that helped us see that early numeracy and mathematical thinking and ideas is one of the number one predictors of long-term academic success, even over literacy. So I'm not saying replace one with the other. I'm saying bring it together. And instead of elementary education focusing on just literacy and then throwing math at kids, that we actually have something called foundational learning or foundational skills cause there's nothing elementary about the early learning of reading or of mathing. So that's one thing. And then the other part of something you said with mathematician, I think we also, there is some work to do to reclaim that as well. I think it should still exist, but we need to see different images and representations of true mathematicians. Because we shouldn't automatically see crazy hair, thick glasses, someone who is, you know, just in a room alone writing on boards

Vanessa Vakharia 13:25

No social skills, no fashion sense.

Deborah Peart 13:28

Right. We wanna see all of those mathematicians as well. So I know I'm not one, but I do know some fine mathematicians who look like me, so I think it's "yes, and".

Vanessa Vakharia 13:42

I like am so conflicted about how to feel about the mathematician thing because in my other life, I'm in a band and it took me forever, to like, people would be like, are you a musician? And I'd be like, well, no, but I'm in a band. That's always what I said. I was like, no, but I'm in a band. And then I was like, how am I defining the term musician that like, somehow I don't belong to that group? Like I play instrument, I sing, play shows all the time, I write songs, like what is the thing that makes me not a musician? And I was like, I think it's that I don't feel good enough. I actually think that's, and I, and I wonder. like, I see what you're saying of being like, okay, so you're defining mathematician as someone who takes like a certain number of college courses at the advanced level, but what number?

Deborah Peart 14:25

But also, no, but also it's a path. It's a career path.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:30

It's a career path.

Deborah Peart 14:32

I mean, literally becoming a mathematician, it requires, and Zak and I had that conversation, if I am a mathematician who went to school for many years and studied mathematics, have a PhD in math, and I'm actually trying to solve problems of the world using mathematics, yes, mathematician. That's what I'm saying. It's a, it's a career path. A writer doesn't have to be a journalist. A reader doesn't have to be, I don't, I don't know, what do you read for a living? Just that

Vanessa Vakharia 15:03

A publisher?

Deborah Peart 15:04

An, maybe, I guess, yes, a editor. So all I'm saying is we need the reader, the writer, the mather over here, and then you have the mathematician, the journalist, the publisher, editor, that those are career paths. And it's also a path that if I'm a mather who's confident in my skills and abilities, then I might choose to be a mathematician and do the work to become one, with confidence that I belong in that space. Just like you choose to go in STEM fields, but if you don't hold on to math as a part of your identity in the elementary grades, then you could end up missing out on the opportunity to pursue STEM because you've avoided math, you have the anxiety and quite a bit of trauma. So, that's the part, it's like the mather part is really about the undergirding and setting the foundation so that eventually you could choose to pursue the path of becoming a mathematician.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:04

I'm convinced, I'm now convinced. But I was like, okay, I need to like, no, no, no, for sure. I'm

Elitism in math

Vanessa Vakharia 16:09

so curious, like where do you think, I have a bunch of theories, but I kind of wanna hear yours, where do you think the idea of math only being for the elite and math, the term mathematician, only being for a select group, like where do you think that came from?

Deborah Peart 16:22

Well, I mean, the way education was established in Colonial America was that school was really focused on literacy and classic literature. And that math was so complicated that it only, I hate to even say the words out loud, but it was believed that only men could handle the challenge of understanding mathematics

Vanessa Vakharia 16:48

Of course, we're so fragile.

Deborah Peart 16:49

Right. So I think, you know, it was in 1726, Harvard hired their first mathematics professor, and then arithmetic became a prerequisite to attend college. So when you think about who was allowed to continue to go to school historically, in America at least, it was boys, and even in families, if only one is going to school, even later a lot of times it was you let the sons go to school and pursue the education. And like you said, the ladies were so fragile, need to learn how to cook and clean and all that good stuff. Gimme a break. But I think some of that legacy just stuck.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:31

Well, and it's like, I, I was thinking a lot about math trauma, and when I talk about math trauma often, we think of the way we traumatize kids in math, people think of like really obvious things. They're like, oh, like yelling at a kid or bullying them. But I'm like, or what about just growing up in a society where it's implicit that people who look like you don't do math.

Deborah Peart 17:50

Right. That part.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:53

That part is so traumatizing. So this idea, and I, I actually think, like, I like talking about this explicitly because I don't know, you and I are probably like so used to this idea, we're like, well, obviously, like hello, there's the message everywhere that it, you know, math is only for certain people, and people who aren't invested in this or who aren't in the field are like, what are you talking about? Right? No one's ever said that and you're like, just look at the TV shows consume, the media we consume, look at the stats in universities. It's not like there's a math gene and there just happens to be fewer women in these programs because they're, But you're laughing, but it's like people still think that!

Deborah Peart 18:27

I know, I know. It's, it's not funny, but there's, it's so ridiculous, that it is. Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:35

No, I totally get it. So I think, I think actually with your, that term, with mather, I'm like, this is almost a way, I feel like it's like very therapeutic, I feel like it's a way to avoid re-traumatizing students by trying to fit them into this mold of mathematician that is so incongruous, right? Like, I don't know, I just, I love the whole thing. Um, sorry, David's giving me a really funny note that now I have to say. we should pitch a superhero movie to Netflix called The Mather. And I'm loving this.

Deborah Peart 19:05

Oh my gosh.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:07

We kind of, you, I think you have to do it. I, I actually had a couple of meetings with them about a show called Math Therapy, which they vehemently were not into, but I, but the point is like, I'll sneak you the guy's email, send him something. I'm just picturing the outfits now. Is it a cape?

Deborah Peart 19:24

Actually, my daughter is my illustrator and some of the pictures that she has created for the characters who are Mathers, kinda look like superheroes, we do have a picture book we're working on.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:36

Excuse me?

Deborah Peart 19:37

Yes, yes, all about being a mather. It's called "Math Is Not My Jam". It's not out yet, but we are working on it.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:46

This is, ok also, also, we're gonna switch gears and talk about mindfulness for a sec, even though part of the whole thing. But wait, I need to just pause. Like, you have merch, right? For the Mather movement? Like what do you have?

Deborah Peart 19:57

Yes. Okay. Oh goodness. Basically we have anything you want us to have because Layla's Curve, Nikki is behind the producing of our merch. And if I say, Hey, someone asked about classroom posters, can we do that? And she says, sure. And then it's magically on the site. So we have stickers, we have posters, we have adult t-shirts, we have children's t-shirts. I have a backpack, I think that's on there. I have a jacket, we have hoodies, masks, hats, oh yes, my Mather jacket is cool.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:31

What? I kind of want like a leather jacket with Mather in like studs on the back. That would be so badass! Like rhinestones, like a Lady Gaga Mather jacket.

Deborah Peart 20:41

Oh, that's amazing. I think I need that.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:44

We'll talk after. I, I need it! Maybe we can just get it made. I also would like, like a cute crop. But I'm very into, oh my God, you know what we need? Sorry, we, I'm saying we, I know it's you, I know I'm not involved. Little, like baby onesies. Because it's like they're born Mathers.

Deborah Peart 20:58

Yes! I like it.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:00

I need baby gifts for two friends in the next two months, you could just, that, I think that would actually really work for me.

Deborah Peart 21:06

Oh no, that would be easy. We have with our Black Woman Rock Math gear, she did do onesies and little toddler t-shirts, so I'll just tell her to throw a Mather on a baby onesie and it'll be on the site probably by tomorrow.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:19

Okay. Amazing.

Mindfulness + math

Vanessa Vakharia 21:21

Okay, so let's, I wanna switch gears because one of the things that really, really struck me about you is just your philosophy on mindfulness and math. And I have to say, I am someone who came into mindfulness probably a bit later in life, like, formally. Like I've always meditated, I've always been kind of spiritual. Not that that's necessarily a part of mindfulness, but I've always been very, focused on thought work. I've always thought it was really important, and I've always taught math that way, right? I've always like looked at the whole student. But it wasn't until 10 years ago, eight years ago, that I actually took my first mindfulness based stress reduction class, and I did it for, that, myself personally, for something I was going through. And as I was taking it, I was like, Oh my God. Like, oh my God, like why aren't we just, why isn't this a thing? And I remember at that time, so let's say this was eight years ago. Okay, so let's say it was like 2017 ish. That's really horrible math. That's six years, the point is, it was, I remember 2016, 2017, for two seconds, there was a tiny trend of like, we should incorporate mindfulness in schools. And I remember distinctly hearing this interview where this person was talking about how they incorporated mindfulness in schools, and you know, they rang a bell at the beginning of class and they maybe had a mindful moment. And all of these parents had a huge problem with it. They were like, oh, like is this religious, what is this, like, focus on teaching our kids math. What are you doing? So, Okay. That's my big preamble to being like, I wanna hear your thoughts on mindfulness and math. Like, I know I'm not even asking a question, but just, you know, okay, you're with, that's what figured. Okay.

Deborah Peart 22:50

So for me, it started, gosh, I hate to say a number, maybe 20 years ago. I was involved with Little Flower Yoga, they were partnering with New York City schools and they were doing the New York Yoga School project, so they actually were getting into schools and doing yoga and mindfulness

Vanessa Vakharia 23:14

20 years ago? That's the early two thousands. Like this wasn't even a thing that's very progressive.

Deborah Peart 23:18

Mm-hmm. It really wasn't a thing when we were, I know when I was doing, it was not a thing. Since then, Grounded Kids Yoga, she's, they also have been around for a very long time and they teach and train in yoga, meditation, and mindfulness. So I started reading books and doing a little research because the idea of mind mindfulness was already being used for pain management and things like that, it just wasn't happening in schools. For me, I was trying to find ways to help students overcome anxiety around mathematics because I found that even students who were "good at it", air quotes, were still anxious about it or despised it. So what is going on? And why is it happening specifically with mathematics? So I'm me and I can't do anything halfway. So within the next few years I found training courses and learned a little bit about bringing mindfulness to your classroom, but then I wanted more and I wanted to be able to answer questions if students had them. So I like to know things to the core of my being. So I also did a 200 hour yoga certification because that's what a normal person right? That's what I do. But I wanted to understand history, philosophy, anatomy, like all of those things. And since then I've taken additional courses, I went through the mindfulschools.org, they've been around for a very long time. But I called it a mindful approach to mathematics because I recognized that students needed to manage anxiety in math class and life, and it was as if the world opened up to students when we just paused, we had a mindful moment. It was about self-regulation. It was about understanding that you can do anything you set your mind to. And I worked with students one year and they gave me the students who were struggling, the lowest students in third grade, blah, blah. But they told me, work on their facts. Just make sure they know their facts. And I said, mm, no, I'm gonna make sure that they know that their brain is flexible and can change and, and that they deserve to be in the space. And the chakras, you know, we had different affirmations, and "I belong here", yes, right? "I have the right to be here, and I was born to do math." So that was something that we did at the opening of every session. And then there was another one, "I am happy, I am good". And we did that at the end of every one, "I am happy, I am good". And here's why that matters. I had them reflect at the beginning of our sessions, we had 10 sessions about their feelings about math, who they thought they were, did they belong. And there were some obvious responses. One child even spelled "meh" as their response, how they feel about math. And then when they were leaving after the 10 sessions we had together, I will never forget that a little third grader wrote, "I have learned that I am good and I am good at math". And I had to read it twice because I was thinking, I am good at math. No, they were attaching not being good at math as not being good, as not being a good child, as not being worthy. So to hear them say, I've learned that I am good, and I am good at math, just made me know that I was doing the right thing by supporting them with those strategies to, take up space, boldly, and learn strategies, yeah, for solving math in ways that your teacher can't dictate.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:08

Yeah. So, I always say, but I, I really, like that really just hit home what you said, it's even like kind of a level further. I always say to educators, you have to understand when your, when your students are anxious about math or when they don't feel good at math, because of everything we, you and I have just talked about, it's not that they don't feel good at math. That's the trigger for them feeling, actually, like they're stupid. That's what they feel. Because we attach math knowledge to intelligence. So it's like you could literally know that Alaska is not even, you, you could, think it's its own country, okay? You could think it's its own country, which one of us may or may not think, it's definitely me, okay. But if you tell someone you're good at math, the second I tell somebody that I'm a math educator, the first thing they say to me is, you must be so smart. And I'm like, bitch. I thought Alaska was its own country. Okay. I don't say that, I don't, I, well, now it's out. But the point is, what you're saying is so true and it's so concise. It's like we actually have attached way more value than it's worth to the ability to do mathematics. Like it's literally just math, who cares, it's like anything else, right? But, but, I think that's why too, like when I think of mindfulness, to me what that translates into right away is a holistic approach at looking at a student as a learner of math.

Deborah Peart 28:25

That, and I will say I combined helping students understand multiple intelligences with that work.

Vanessa Vakharia 28:32

Say more about that, like what

Deborah Peart 28:34

So at the beginning of every year, there was a book called How We Are Smart, and it talked about, and we just used, I used child friendly lang, language being body smart, being word smart, logic smart, even interpersonal and intrapersonal smart. So helping them outline their natural strengths and abilities, acknowledging that they have some of all of it, but having them consider, what do I lean into more? What do I feel comes naturally to me? And then where do I need to put in extra work to build that muscle? So there were kids who were drawing pictures of themselves, taking pride in being body smart, um, music smart, art smart, and they had debates, fourth graders having debates. "Well, art isn't a way to be intelligent". And having a student who was an artist start rattling off famous artists, how can you say they're not brilliant? How can you say, so for them to hear that and acknowledge that to be smart is not just reading, writing, and mathematics. Now that to me sealed the deal, with them recognizing it for themselves. I'm smart. I'm a gifted artist, and that means I am intelligent in a very special and unique way, and I'm intelligent in all the other ways as well.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:55

I love.

Deborah Peart 29:56

So that, yeah, that whole thing changed everything and the respect they had for one another.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:04

I love this cause this is, it's almost like I've just been doing a bunch of shit, but now you're here with the research, which I really like actually, I'm yes, all right, I'm on the right track. But I, what, one activity I, I've been doing lately, I've, have this whole certificate made called, My Math Superpower. So I go into classrooms and I help kids discover their math superpower. So It's kind of, let's say what you're doing in a way, let's say you had a kid who was like, well, I'm really, really good at art. I feel confident in that, I feel smart at that. Okay, so now let's talk about the skills you have as an artist and how that is so applicable to math. So, for example, like you're probably the person I want in my group when we have to draw out a word problem or make a diagram, or like when we need an innovative way of looking at a problem. And then we come up on, on the certificate, with being like, my name is Deborah, and my math superpower is I can see the forest for the trees. Or like, you know, whatever it is, so that it's like, we're all smart in our own ways, but that by, by definition, that means we're all mathematically smart in our own ways. We, we all bring something unique to the table. It's not just like, oh, I'm fast and I am, you know, can do mental math. Anyways, now I'm just talking about myself.

Deborah Peart 31:06

And think about, you know, no but even think about that artist, and geometry and depth perception. My daughter is a natural born artist, it was always something, she was drawing eyelashes on her characters when she was three. It was like, that honestly is a thing.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:24

The foreshadowing to the eyelash movement, yeah.

Deborah Peart 31:29

She, you know math, is in everything. When I look at the work she does now, I'm just like, wow, you had to think about math to get that right.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:40

The perspective and stuff, yeah totally. I have, I have a question. Do you ever feel like, and maybe this is, well actually a hundred percent this is me projecting, um, it is. Do you ever feel like people don't take you seriously when like, sometimes I feel like when I talk about this stuff, there's like a small segment of educators that's just eyerolling and is, okay, just fucking teach kids math, like stop with this mind shit. Like, do you ever get that?

Deborah Peart 32:04

Um, I think people walk in the door with it, but when they experience it for themselves, they can't deny the difference it can make. And starting with a mindful moment for example, when I do PD, I just did an all day PD with educators the other day. And the first thing we're gonna do is have one minute, and we talk about how one minute doesn't seem like enough time to do anything, but then when you set a timer and you teach them calming breath, Breathe in through your nose for two, out for four, it's mathematical. If you do three, you do six, and that actually calms the sympathetic nervous system and can slow your heart rate down. So let's talk about it. I invite you to participate in that, or just sit there. You can close your eyes, lower your gaze, or stare at me and say, what is this crazy lady making me do, just start talking about math. But we're, we're going to do this. And at the end of that minute, you can feel the energy in the room shift. And then we jump into talking about math. And I also share videos of students who are experiencing success because of it. You can't deny it. So they might come in feeling that way, but they don't leave out feeling the same.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:17

I love it. I love that. Um, a couple other things I wanted to ask about this, like, why do you think that It's not like taking off, not not taking off, I actually think we've made a lot of progress and now people are like, especially with Carol Dweck and Jo Boaler, people are like, okay, mindset actually matters. But I don't know about you guys, but I know in, in Ontario we have like this new socio-emotional learning part of the curriculum where it's like, it's in there, it's like whatever. But every educator I've talked to is like, I don't know how to do, like, we got an hour of PD, I don't know what, how to do it. Is it in there for you guys? Like is it

Deborah Peart 33:49

Well, some states are actually, uh, banning it and not allowing it to be taught. Let's not forget that.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:57

Is this the CRT argument?

Deborah Peart 33:59

It's, it's all of it.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:01

Okay. We, yeah,

Deborah Peart 34:01

We're not gonna go there.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:03

I'm interviewing Crystal Watson. I'm gonna her tell me about it.

Deborah Peart 34:06

Oh, I love Crystal, she will tell you all about it.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:11

Okay.

Deborah Peart 34:11

Um, I think it is that teachers are sometimes just given a one hour PD and then expected to go forth and be great. That's not fair. And if it were up to me, then in the summer, they might have the opportunity to experience some training. But not, here's the training so you can do it for kids. Here's an experience for you.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:34

Yes.

Deborah Peart 34:35

They need to experience, I think it's, um, Patricia Jennings has a book, I believe that's the author's name, Mindfulness for Teachers. And I know for me, when I was teaching, I had to have my own practice so that I could successfully work with students. Because imagine the teacher who has her teeth clenched and is like, "everyone calm down!" Everyone, it's, you know

Vanessa Vakharia 35:01

Oh God, I'm so stressed.

Deborah Peart 35:04

So they have to be given time and space. Everyone's talking about wellness, but are we supporting them with actually achieving it for themselves? Because it's out of the abundance of your peace that you can relay it to others. And I had, I had students one summer, they asked me to do literacy in a summer program in the afternoon alongside the choice of music and PE and all kinds of cool things. I was like, I'm not doing that, I'm not gonna be that person. So I actually did something, it was yoga, mindfulness, and life lessons through literacy. So there were some stories in there. The kids loved it. They were fantastic, and they started calling me the Peace Lady. "Hey, Peace Lady", you know, they never got my name. It started out as just one little boy who was just like, "Hey, peace lady. Can I shake your glitter jar?" He would be so angry,

Vanessa Vakharia 36:03

You tell us what a glitter jar is now, you can't just say that! That sounds weird, Deborah, unless you define it.

Deborah Peart 36:11

Okay. So a calming glitter jar, I have a really wonderful recipe, it's one of the things I learned through Little Flower. But it is basically a mixture that kids can take it and shake and then they just watch the glitter settle. But depending on your recipe, you can have it settled really slowly, you know, really quickly. And I, oh, I have a recipe I can share with you.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:35

Please, yes!

Deborah Peart 36:36

And even a video of how to make it, so I'll send that to you, I used to send it to parents. My students would have their own. We had class ones. They'd make them out of, uh, baby food jars or mason jars. It works as a focal point when you're trying to bring your energy down. So this, this little boy would come, he got into it with someone and he'd come, and he knew because of what we had been doing, he needed a moment. So he'd ask, can he take one of the glitter jars and sit over in the peace corner and get, bring himself in. So we did that. We did the singing bowl at the start of every circle. I had 42 K and first graders in a classroom. And I have video of them doing inner circles and doing heart and belly breath and listening to the singing bowl and bringing it in before we start. So I offered to him that he could have one of mine, or I'd help him make his own. And it was a great thing, but it was also a crazy thing because I told him if he came to me during recess, I'd show him how. And it turned into a recess option all of a sudden, and I made over 150 glitter jars with kids that summer, because they kept signing up and kept signing up, and we didn't even get to do it with everyone, but I never thought they would've wanted it that bad.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:54

Well, this is the thing of like, we need to listen to our kids, right? It's like you can say from your like tower of curriculum design or whatever the fuck you're doing, that like, no, this is what we need to do and that whatever, and this won't work. But it's like the proof is in the empirical evidence somehow, sometimes. So it's like obviously you're onto something amazing. I love it. I'm just so glad there's someone out there that's as glittery and hippie vibes as me in the math world. Okay. I, we, we have to wrap up sadly, which I never wanna wrap up. And I was nervous about this, but I wanna ask one more question about this very quickly. Mindfulness kind of gets a rap for being a bit woo-woo and like, ugh, affirmations and thoughts, like how much can that really change things? But one of the biggest things we are seeing in our math classrooms are kids who are dealing with things like anxiety, with ADHD, with, you know, working memory, like with a lot of things. Do you think mindfulness has the potential to be a part of allowing these kids to better engage with math?

Deborah Peart 38:47

Absolutely, and I saw it. I saw it happen over years that students who were learning the strategies and techniques to self-regulate and to bring down their own anxiety, before engaging in a task that they think is going to be challenging. And then I saw it spill over into their home lives where they were teaching it to siblings and parents, and they were doing it before they had to do their figure skating test, and running back and telling me, you know, I did "Sa Ta Na Ma" before I did my thing cause, and it's just pressing your fingers together, "I am so calm". Or whatever words. And we do it in a normal voice, in a whisper, and then silent, and then back. So they practiced it before tests, they practiced it on their own sometimes, but I think it can make a difference because it also teaches them how to focus. And I, I sometimes use an excerpt from Clementine cuz I love that little storybook, sassy little thing, and she's just like, "everyone keeps telling me to pay attention, but I am paying attention. I was the only one paying attention out the window and saw", and you know, talking about all the things she's paying attention to. So I tell educators, students are paying attention. They're just not paying attention to you. We have to teach them how to focus, and how to recognize when they're not focusing on the important thing they should be focusing on in this moment. So yeah, helping them understand you're not just suppressing all of your thoughts. You're managing and recognizing, oh, I'm off, oh, I need to bring it back. And having a son who was diagnosed with ADHD, he tried the medication, didn't like it, and he said, I can recognize now when I am going off and I can bring myself back. So that's what worked for us in my family and in the classrooms where I taught. And like I said, I've shared it with educators and helped them experience it for themselves and make their own glitter jars. So then they become believers.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:52

I love it. I love it. I love it. Okay, we have to wrap up. This has been incredible, beyond my wildest dreams. I just feel like I have full body goosebumps and I need a glitter jar. We are gonna

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 41:01

go to the two final questions that we ask every guest. The first one is, what is the one thing you'd like to see change about the way math is taught in schools.

Deborah Peart 41:10

Oh gosh. Okay, so,

Vanessa Vakharia 41:13

We need a whole other episode, I know.

Deborah Peart 41:15

Well actually it's why I'm back in school. I'm, I'm currently pursuing my doctorate degree in program development and innovation. Because what I think is we need to develop training courses for especially elementary educators, but I think it applies to everyone, that starts with recognizing our own math traumas and anxieties so that we can heal from them. So first comes healing. But if I think I never had any, you still need to be educated on what it is so you don't continue to traumatize students without knowing. So I think teachers need training around that. And then also support with building content knowledge, but also instructional practices in how to teach mathematics. So I think we just throw them in and I, I did a paper where I looked at undergraduate programs and it was like six to one literacy courses and then math, and I only took one as an elective. So I think how we support teachers, because how can you teach mathematics well, when you're still holding onto that fourth grade teacher who traumatized you? Oh wait, that's my story. Um, how do you move forward? So I think teachers, I would say teacher training and ongoing professional development support with mathematics. How to teach it, how to understand it, the way that kids are thinking. And to not shut them down because we're afraid that we don't understand what they're doing, so we don't want them to do it that way.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:44

Yep. And this is so funny cuz it almost goes into our, like when I was saying earlier, it's like, oh yeah, we put socio-emotional learning in the curriculum and give them an hour, but like, actually weaving that into the fabric of the entire teaching training process because like, okay, anyways.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 42:58

Final question. What would you say to someone who doesn't think they're a math person?

Deborah Peart 43:04

Oh, you know what I would say. I just said it yesterday to hundreds, hundreds, literally of fifth graders who, you know, I asked where are the readers? Hands go up. Where are the writers? Hands go up. Where are the mathers? A few hands go up. And then I say, okay, let's try this again, because you are all readers, writers, mathers. You are a reader because you read for fun or information. You're a writer because you write stories using your imagination, and you're a mather because you use math to make sense of the world. I personally don't talk about being a "math person", because that means there is a non-math person. And that means someone could take it away from me or, or welcome me or not, invite me or not to be one. So I would just simply say, you know, I don't know, you don't have to necessarily be a math person, but you are a mather, and here's why.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:57

Uh, uh, I like, I wanna cry. I don't wanna ruin my makeup.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 44:01

Um, Deborah, this has been literally the best. Please tell us where we can find you. And where can we find the sick swag merch, crop top, leather jacket rhinestone thing.

Deborah Peart 44:12

You hear that Niky? So on Twitter at @debpeart1, and also mymathematicalmind.com. Email mymathematicalmind1 at gmail.com. If you reach out, I actually do respond. And then #BlackWomenRockMath. If you follow that hashtag or go to any of those sites, you can find me. I had to think about it, I should have known the answer to that question right away.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:37

Oh my God, so many places to find you. I wouldn't know!

Deborah Peart 44:41

But you can certainly find merch at mymathematicalmind.com or laylascurve.com. Shout out to Niky, she's awesome.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:50

Okay, well next time you see me, I will be rocking the rhinestones. Thank you so much. This was the best. Thanks for being on the pod.

Deborah Peart 44:58

Thanks for having me. This was fun.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:02

Okay, can I just say, I love Deborah Peart. Like, I love her. I listened to this episode like three times, cackling to myself the entire time. So please tell me you thought that we were as funny as I did. Like, do we need our own Netflix show or do we need our own Netflix show? I have to tell you guys, Deborah did not lie the day after we recorded this interview that "Born A Mather" onesie was up on her website as promised, and I'm happy to say that my friend's cute little baby, Sunny, can be seen wearing it on the show notes page. Still working on the rhinestone studded leather jacket. But don't worry, I'm committed to the vision. Thank you guys so much for listening, and as always, I wanna hear what takeaways you had, so hit us up on socials. And if you end up snagging any Mather merch, pics or it didn't happen. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us @maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally @themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.