Zak Champagne: 0:02

If I get to spend 180 days in the classroom with a kid, I would rather them leave my classroom having a positive outlook on who they are as a math learner than knowing a bunch of shit about math. I think it's more important for their well being and their future that they walk out feeling like they have a connection and they see themselves as a math learner

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:22

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, so if you listened to the last season of Math Therapy, you probably noticed that the most name dropped person was a guy named Zak Champagne. Like guys, I'm not kidding. Almost every one of our guests was like, Zak Champagne this, and Zak Champagne that, and like, blah, blah, blah, blah, I love Zak. So, of course, I needed to find out for myself what the hype was all about. And let me tell you, the hype is real. Zak has been an elementary classroom teacher for over 20 years and has won a ton of state and national awards for excellence in teaching, including the Presidential Award for Excellence in Mathematics and Science Teaching. Like, guys, he met a real life president. Zak really gets the profound impact of trust and respect in the classroom and just understands that learning can't happen without that foundation. This episode was truly a wild ride because I have to say that Zak easily makes the top three all time awkward starts to a Math Therapy interview, but we quickly recovered and had a very moving discussion about how giving students meaning and a sense of belonging can help us avoid losing students both inside and outside of our classrooms. Hello. Zak Champagne. Welcome to the pod.

Zak Champagne: 1:58

What's up?

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:59

Okay. So the reason I'm being so. What?

Zak Champagne: 2:02

No, I was just going to say, well, go ahead. You go ahead.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:04

No, you go

Zak Champagne: 2:04

This is gonna a great start. This is a real shady start already.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:07

You start!

Zak Champagne: 2:08

I just was going to say to everyone out there that I'm a long time listener, but first time caller. And if you get that reference, you're as old as me. Um, so there you go.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:18

What's that?

Zak Champagne: 2:19

You don't know that saying? Maybe

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:20

Are you trying to figure out if I'm as old as you? Is that what

Zak Champagne: 2:23

No, I'm sure you are as old as me or I'm assuming close.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:27

I'm not going to tell you because I'm age fluid and then that's just the way it is.

Zak Champagne: 2:30

Okay. All right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:31

But when what year were you born?

Zak Champagne: 2:33

76. I'm four, I'm 47.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:35

You think I'm 47?

Zak Champagne: 2:37

Yeah, Did we just end the podcast? Are we done? Is it over?

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:42

Do you sincerely think I'm 47?

Zak Champagne: 2:44

No, I think you're, am I allowed to guess without you getting mad?

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:47

Yeah, yeah, I'm not gonna tell, I, I, but like,

Zak Champagne: 2:49

I would say I would say early forties, late thirties would be my guess.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:54

But did you, I need to know honestly, did you think I was 47 potentially?

Zak Champagne: 2:59

No, but I think if you were in your early forties, you'd still get the reference of longtime listener, first time caller.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:05

Okay, we're gonna move on. So I don't get that reference. I do not get that reference, number one.

Zak Champagne: 3:10

Okay. Fair. bad start here. All right. Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:13

I'm kidding. I love you. Okay, here we go. So the reason I really wanted you on I was just saying that I saw you speak in 2022, uh, at NCTM, it was my first NCTM, I've never been in that world until then. So it was like my first time, fresh eyes. And I was like, everyone was like Zak Champagne, Zak Champagne. And I was like, this guy has such a dope name. Like I'm just to see what all the hype is about, you know? So I go to your talk. And I remember your talk being great, but that's actually not what I remember the most. What I remember the most was the audience reaction. I remember, like, Crystal, like, giving you a standing ovation. I didn't even know who she was. I was just like, what is happening? Like, everyone's, like, reacting, like, so, lovingly to Zak Champagne. I also don't think I can say Zak, everyone's always like, Zak Champagne, Zak Champagne, and I was like, what's with this guy? Like, you know, people love to talk shit about everyone, and I've never heard anyone talk shit about you. So like, what, why does everyone like you so much?

Zak Champagne: 4:08

Oh my God. What a crazy first question. Like I gotta like build my, um, my ego up a little bit here and which

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:15

No, the first question was, do you really think I'm 47? the second question, okay,

Zak Champagne: 4:20

This the second question. Um, yeah, I do know about your love of astrology, and I'm a Leo, I'm not afraid to, like, yeah, roll the eyes, right? Like, I'm all about myself. I'm totally, you know, self centered, I think I can save the world and change the world. So I'm not too mad to, like, talk about why people don't hate me. I guess maybe that's a better

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:40

I love this. Also, Leo's are really misunderstood. A lot of a Leo is about passion and bringing passion to what they do.

Zak Champagne: 4:47

I would say that I think that is a big part of who I am. I love, I love this work. I love being around young people and learning alongside them, learning with and from them. I think that's a space in the sort of math education sphere that like isn't often talked about as much as it should be, which is like, this work that we are gifted and able to do is so special and so wonderful. And the opportunity to get to be alongside young people that much, it makes me so happy and it fills me with so much energy and joy. And then when I get to work with teachers and be in front of teachers, I just try to share that. I try to share their voices. And I think, I think that resonates with people. Um, I think you you go to these math education conferences and there's like two camps in my mind. There's like the like researcher, I've been out of the classroom for a very long time and I have, but I have some ideas that, that are important, I'm not knocking that that lane, just not the lane I'm in. And then there's sort of like, the people who are just really good speakers, and I love going to see them as well, they inspire me, they give me ideas. But there's this lane that's not filled with like an actual classroom teacher who, who can talk about the practice and the work that we do every day, but also has a way, and again, I'm filling my own bucket here to answer your question, which is like also has a way, I think, to connect with people. And I think part of that is the Leo in me and the sort of passion in me. But it also is like, I truly do just love being around people, and talking with them and learning with them. And so hopefully, you know, that comes across, and people, you know, get that about me that I'm just interested in like knowing your world and like knowing who you are and learning with you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:23

Do you have any haters that you know about?

Zak Champagne: 6:26

Oh, good question. Um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:29

Because like I've discovered I do recently.

Zak Champagne: 6:32

Really? Interesting. I don't think there are any like outward haters. There are certainly people, particularly locally, um, where I live who like probably have had enough of me and I, I can see that, right? Like, um, you know, I was, I was born and raised in Jacksonville, Florida, and now I'm going to digress for a minute, I'm going to ask that none of your listeners judge me by my state, um, it's a hot mess down there in Florida, but I was born and raised there, and I've done a lot of work to try and make that place better. But I've also, you know, Jacksonville's a really small, kind of big town, and so everybody kind of knows everybody. So I would imagine, particularly in the education space, there are people in in Jacksonville who are kind of like, all right, that guy's had enough. Let, let's, let's, let's stop listening to him.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:16

Okay, so this is really interesting. You said people have had enough of you, maybe, whatever. And you also talked about how much you love, which I love how you started this by talking about how much you love being around young people like me. So that's really nice that we're here together. Um, but. One thing I, you know, in just kind of like looking at the work you've done and even just being around you, like, one thing that I find so special about you is that you really, in a non cheesy, like, non performative way, really do value student voice. And I, I hate saying that because it's such a catchphrase, but you just said it best, being like, I love being around young people, learning with them, hearing what they have to say. So. It's weird to me because I'm like, isn't that, like, shouldn't that be such an obvious thing that teachers love? Like, that's what they do every day. But where do you think we've sort of gone wrong there? Like, why do you think you're so unique in that? Like, do you think it really is that, like, other teachers, like, don't love being around young people? Or that they don't know how to listen to them? Or, like, what is it?

Zak Champagne: 8:13

I think it's a couple of things. You mentioned some of them. One is I don't, I don't think there are very many teachers who like, don't like being around young people, right? Like this work's way too hard to like, not enjoy that. I think what's happened is this system that we built has robbed them of the opportunity to enjoy being around young people and listening to their ideas, I think the system has been set up so that they are so focused on kids getting answers and kids getting questions right on tests or whatever. And so they're sort of forced, their hand is forced a little bit to focus only on outcomes as opposed to like the human beings that are in the room. Um, so I think one, it's that the system is set up to do that. And I do think, um, two, it's like the time, which is also part of the system. But like, I think teachers are pressed for time. Of course they are right. It's not quick to sit and listen to a seven year old talk about their math ideas, right? Like they have lots they want to tell you about right? And so that takes so much time and so much energy. And I will also say and this, I hope this does not come across as a knock to teachers because I don't mean that in this way at all. But what I, it's been my experience that listening to kids and, trying to make instructional decisions in the moment. Um, it's really hard to do. It's really complex and challenging work and, and the sort of thousands of micro decisions we make every day that impact outcomes, it's really cognitively demanding for teachers. Even, even those of us have been doing it for a really long time. And so sometimes, and again, this is why I don't mean this as a knock. This work is so hard. Sometimes it's just easier, to like focus on answers, let's get some stuff done and move on, because it doesn't wear you down and break you down. Like that work, it's incredibly complex.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:56

So, has anyone, you know, you're a big proponent of being like, well, like I know it's time consuming, but we really need to listen to young people in the classroom, that's where our strength lies, and we're going to talk more about that. Has anyone ever come for you being like, no, we don't need to do that. I don't know what they would have said. And I'm really making this about myself. So I don't know who the real Leo in the room is. I'm a Gemini, so whatever,

Zak Champagne: 10:17

Fair.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:18

But I am so curious because I've been finding that lately, like the entire math education world is like people coming for each other and being like, no, like we shouldn't be listening to students talk, like we should be telling like. I, I actually haven't heard anyone say that specifically, but being like, no, like direct instruction or no, like we shouldn't be talking about mindfulness. Has anyone ever been like, no, Zak, no, we should not be listening to, to students. That's not

Zak Champagne: 10:41

I mean, I would, I would imagine there are people who believe some version of that. Maybe the argument is something like, you know, we, we really want to prepare kids for the world and, and to do that, they have to like, grunt through all this stuff. And like, not, it's not, their ideas aren't, aren't what matters here, it's like, yeah, getting to understand whatever the thing we're trying to teach them is. So maybe there's some version of like, you know, that. I don't believe that, but I think there's some version of that somewhere.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:08

But you've never heard anyone say that to you, or you've never been aware that people are like, what Zak is saying is bullshit. Really?

Zak Champagne: 11:15

No, no one said that to me. And I think, I mean, it is nice, but I do think I, I'm old enough, we'll go back to age, my friend, um, sorry to, triggering here, but I'm old enough to like, to like surround myself with people that, that I really love and care for and do align with those sort of values because they're that important to me, um, and I also really stay off Twitter X, whatever

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:41

So that's what, that's what it is. You're, you're staying off of social media. I see. Ok, that's a skill I don't have.

Zak Champagne: 11:47

And I don't have like, I have a personal Instagram account. I don't have like a Instagram account that's like, like for the work I do. So I don't, that's a happier place, I think, at least for me. But, um, yeah, staying away from that has been really good for my health. Now that you say that, there was a time where I called out our governor in Florida for some of his terrible policies in education. And boy, did the right wing come for me on that. Um, which was kind of actually just funny to watch for a while. Cause you know, they're all like bots, like they're not real people,

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:18

But it still, like, stings, when you see enough

Zak Champagne: 12:21

It does, Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:24

Okay. Well, great, good for you for not being on social media, that's really great. And I don't know how to do that.

Zak Champagne: 12:29

And sorry, Vanessa, let's also, let's also acknowledge the elephant in the room, which is a white straight cis male does not get attacked quite nearly as much as, as women or queer folks or people of color. So, like, I have this sort of, like, intangible thing, which, you know, gives me an incredible, incredible amount of privilege,

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:50

Well, thank you for acknowledging that because yes, I constantly get comments being like, somebody with sparkly eyeshadow shouldn't be talking about math education. I'm like, babe, what's that Venn diagram, doesn't make sense. Okay, you were like, talking about how one of the reasons you think that it's so hard to incorporate student voice into like the real life math classroom is just due to time. What advice would you have for a teacher who listens to this and is like, okay, well, I genuinely do want to like hear what my students have to say and somehow incorporate that into my pedagogy. Like, what do I do? Do you have any, any tips for someone who feels strapped for time? Because, like this podcast is Math Therapy, and one of the biggest things is how to make sure that everyone's math story and math identity and previous math traumas are valued in the classroom in as little time as possible. And I feel there is a way to like integrate it holistically without being like, we're spending specific lessons on learning who you are, but I wonder what you have to say.

Zak Champagne: 13:44

There's a saying in the South, that, uh, if you don't have time to do it right, you must have time to do it twice. And kind of kind of think that applies here, which is like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:53

What does that mean?

Zak Champagne: 13:54

To me, what it means is, I think listening to kids and giving kids space to build their math identities is the right thing to do. And so while that takes more time, if you don't do that, what you're going to end up doing is doing this other thing multiple times and never moving forward. Right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:11

Ooh, I love this.

Zak Champagne: 14:13

So you sort of take the time to do it right the first time, so you don't have to do it again and again and again as these kids get older. So for me, it's all about like spending the time. And I've always said this. And this, doesn't bode well for that metaphorical person we were talking about a few minutes ago that makes up this argument,"why would I listen to kids?" Um, but like, I would rather, if I get to spend 180 days in the classroom with a kid, I would rather them leave my classroom having a positive outlook on who they are as a math learner than knowing a bunch of shit about math. I think it's more important for their well being and their future that they walk out feeling like they have a connection and they see themselves as a math learner, and I think that to me is more important. And so that's why I say that time is well spent because they're going to walk out with that positive feeling about who they are as a math learner. And that's going to serve them better than like knowing about ratios and proportions or whatever it is, you know what I mean? Like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:08

Yeah, I love how you said that because I always say that too, like the goal of math therapy for me isn't that every student gets like an A, it's that every student leaves the classroom feeling like anything is possible, starting with their ability to just develop a teensy weensy bit of a better relationship with math, like that is like such a breakthrough. But that being said, teachers and educators are still under so much pressure and kids under are under so much pressure to be like, but I need these specific grades and I need these specific skills like they're so, and it is important, right? Like the, both the things are important, I think we're both aligned on what's the most important.

Zak Champagne: 15:41

Right,

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:42

I always think like, the two often go hand in hand, right? Because you're talking about that idea of doing things twice. When we think about like chronic absenteeism or turning in things late or disengagement, all of that is often a result of like a math trauma that is never addressed or a math identity that is never healed. So like, I think that kind of goes along to what you're saying of like, okay, if you don't want to do the identity work though, you're going to have so much more trouble reaching those students that they'll still never leave your classroom understanding ratios.

Zak Champagne: 16:11

Right,

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:12

So it's like maybe take a shot, take a shot at it, help them with their identity, maybe the ratios follow, maybe they don't, but either way they're leaving with something of value, if not two things.

Zak Champagne: 16:23

Yep. So I, I tell this to parents a lot when, when they ask about this sort of like why we spend so much time on building positive math identities. And I think I first heard this from Annette Johnson, she's a California person, and I think in one of her ShadowCon talks, she talked about this, I don't know where it all came from, maybe it's from a bunch of people, but this sort of idea that there's a cycle of learning, which is like, the more you do something, the better you get at it. Right. As a musician, as a, as a, someone who plays sports, like the practice part, um, is what makes you better at it, but like, you don't actually want to do the practice, unless you're good at it. It's like, how do I get into this circle, which is like, I got to do more of it to get better at it, but I got to like it to want to do it. So it's like, then all of a sudden I'm getting better at it. So I like it more, which means I'm going to do it more. And I'm in that cycle. And I think there's two entry points in there. Either you're good at it and you get into it. Or you want to do it, right, because you feel like you want to try and do it. And I think that's the easier way for most kids to get in. If we're talking about math, I would argue that even for like musicians and sports folks as well, like feeling like you can do it is the entry point because then you're going to want to do it more and then you start getting better at it and you stay in that cycle.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:31

We can't just have people entering from the like, I know how, right? Because then like, you're gonna miss all these people. So yeah. So it's like, how do you get students to want to do it? And I think this is where your work comes in. How does valuing, first of all, what does it mean? I don't, I hate throwing around the term student voice. Tell me what it means to genuinely value a student's voice and tell me how that helps a student enter in at the"want to do it" part of that cycle. Like give me tangible things you do.

Zak Champagne: 17:59

Ok I will, but I'm gonna say one thing first, which I think is in, in my classroom, which I would I try to qualify my classroom as a social classroom, right? I think about this as a place where kids are able to talk or write about their math thinking. And then the second part of that that's so important is that everyone in the space deems those ideas as valuable or holding some kind of value. That is really hard to do, right? So because, because kids are kids and they can be jerks sometimes, let's be honest. And I don't think they mean to be, but they can say things sometimes that can be harmful to other people. And sometimes they don't mean to be, they're just sort of like,"that's not right", or something like that, right? Like they say things that can be harmful to each other. But for me, it's about trying to build a space where kids feel safe, and they feel loved, and they feel valued, right? Um, and so to do that thing, I think we have to do a couple of things. One, we have to be explicit. We have to, like, say the quiet part out loud to kids, which is your voice matters in my classroom. I want to hear from all of you. I think you make us better when we get to learn with you. Like we just you have to say those things, right? And also I think we have to rethink what participation actually looks like. So when we say student voice, that thing you're talking about, right? It's not always talking. You can participate in a math lesson by listening, right? In fact, that's how most kids participate in math lessons. So I try to help my kids understand how to be a better listener to each other. What are the things that we do as listeners when our classmates are talking? Because actually, you're going to listen a whole lot more in a math class than you're going to talk. I don't care who you are, how social the space you make. Even for me, I have an incredibly low number of kids, I have 18 kids. But can you imagine? There's never a day in a math class where all 18 kids have a chance to talk to the whole class. That doesn't happen. You're just going to be actively listening more than you're going to be speaking. So when I say student voice, I'm talking about like all the ways we can show up and participate in a math class, and it's not just talking. It's not just showing your work, right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:06

I think that's actually really important to, um, unpack a lot of these terms, like growth mindset, student voice, like humanizing math, it's like, what does that mean? When you just say those words without context, they mean different things to different people. So we get frustrated because we think we're doing the thing, but we're doing something totally different than the person who like said it to us intended. It's like the word love, you know, when someone says it to you, you're like, when you say you love me, does it mean the same thing as when I say I love you though? Like, and now we're operating under two things. Okay. Also I'd just like to say that you have made this very accessible, I think. Because like, this is less of a like, activity and more of a classroom ethos, right? Like,

Zak Champagne: 20:41

That's exactly right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:42

And it takes two minutes to be like your opinion matters and this is what it means to me, you know, and saying those little things in that language and reinforcing behavior is like, thank you, it's really great to see you actively listening or like, I really love the way you like were patient and whatever, all that stuff is just stuff you can weave in.

Zak Champagne: 20:59

And then like, I think repairing harm, right? Like when kids do say things that are, that are unkind, whether they're intentional or unintentional, like a lot of times what will happen is if a kid sharing an idea in my class and they say what their answer is or ideas and a kid like disagrees, they'll say like, that's not, that's not right. And that's harmful, right? That, that is like a shot to like your, your ethos of like, I thought I was doing okay. Right. Right. And so thinking about, like we use nonverbal signs a lot in our classroom, right? So, like, that's another way you can show up, participate, right? So, like, when Vanessa sharing her idea and my idea is similar, I can use this agree sign, right? That's a way for me to communicate with you, like, I thought like you thought, right? But I don't have to, like, stop you or interrupt you, but I'm communicating to you. Like, hey, we're on the same page, right? And the same thing with disagree.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:42

We're on a podcast.

Zak Champagne: 21:43

I know. Sorry. Agree is, so the sign language

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:45

No one can see you.

Zak Champagne: 21:47

It's mostly a, um, audio medium, but there's a video component somewhere in here, I don't know.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:52

There is. No, no, just explain what you're doing because I think it's important.

Zak Champagne: 21:55

The, the sign language for agree is sort of like, uh, I guess, like, the old hang loose sign, but you sort of point to your chest, then you point to the other person with that. So that's a way to communicate to each other. Like, I agree with what you're saying, or I thought like you're thinking, without interrupting them. And then also we use both arms sort of like in the shape of an X. Like if you disagree with someone, you can use this sign as a way to say, like, I disagree with what you're saying, but I'm not outwardly yelling that at you right now. Right. And that's a more subtle way to like, just sort of communicate. And then the other one that we use a lot, and again, I think these are ways that kids are participating and they are communicating and that they're using their voice without the actual voice, is if Vanessa is saying something in the class and I want to add on to it, we use the sort of like two fists on top of each other back and forth, which is like this is saying, like, I want to build on what Vanessa is saying, I want to add something to that. And those are all ways you can show up and your voice can be heard without actually speaking, I think.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:47

I love that. Okay. I love this so much. Can we talk about trust for a second?

Zak Champagne: 22:51

Oh yeah, please.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:53

Okay, so, we have all of these ideas and these different, like, pedagogy ideas and frameworks and this and that, but often the piece of the conversation that's missing is, like, for any of these to actually work effectively, we need to have a classroom space where there is trust built in. Both ways. Like, we have to trust our students, our students have to trust us. But again, trust is one of those words that just gets thrown around and we don't know, like what it actually means. So what does it mean to you?

Zak Champagne: 23:19

The first thing that comes into my mind when you say trust in the class, if we're talking about a classroom space, I think the thing, this is not, I don't think probably the most common way people think about trust, but the way that I think about it is like, do I trust my kids with the material? Do I trust that, I trust them with the content that I want them to engage with? Do I trust them to engage in appropriate ways, even when I'm not there. I believe that no matter where a kid is on their learning path that we should trust them with grade level content. Now, grade level content is a, that's another word that we all think, it means different things to different people. But for me, it means like, all right, this is something that a fourth grader would typically do. I should trust that you can engage with it no matter what your history is, and I have to think about how I can support you in that. The second part of that is that I'm going to trust that you're going to engage with the work and engage with each other in appropriate ways. And so one of the things that I think so much about, um, this will get back to trust. I'm gonna go on a little detour. Hang with me, people. Don't put this on double speed, listeners. I promise it's gonna we're gonna get back. I love sitting next to young people when they're talking about their math thinking. I love listening to kids talk to each other. I love listening to them talk to me. It is hands down the best part about my job. But what I have to remind myself of is that the second that I sit down next to young people, I have now changed the dynamic of that group, right? My, my positional power that you hold as a teacher changes that conversation. So. What we have to do as teachers is we have to make the intentional decision. Is it worth me going over there and sitting down next to these kids right now? Do I need to know what they're saying or do I need to trust that they are actually talking about the content and they are having a conversation that matters that can exist without me being a part of it. And that's why I think, like that piece of trust is hard. Because one, again, it's fun. I love listening to people talk. And two, usually what happens is if I go sit down next to a couple of kids, I'm going to use that information to drive our whole group learning forward. But sometimes, I think, and what I'm challenging myself to do more of is, sometimes I have to trust that that conversation can live as it is. And I don't have to like, change it by sitting down. I don't have to like, share everything that every kid says. Like, it can exist. And I have to trust that kids can do that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:40

Okay, but how are we creating the space for kids to trust you and to trust one another?

Zak Champagne: 25:46

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:46

How do you do that and what does that mean? Because you're talking about this incredible stuff of, of students being able to like use these hand signals to show whether they agree or disagree, for kids to actually listen to one another, but they can't do that unless they trust you and they trust one another.

Zak Champagne: 26:01

Time, right? Like it takes time. And I think it goes back to even what I was saying earlier, which is like, one, you have to be explicit with kids. I, I don't think we try to be subtle with kids. We should say to them, I trust you. I believe you're gonna be able to do this work. I believe in you. Right? Like, I don't care if, if those kids we're talking about are high school seniors, I think we'd say to them like, I trust you to engage with this work. And I, I also get to teach a section of eighth grade math as well at my school, it's a small school, I have third and fourth graders most of the day, and I teach eighth grade as well. And with those eighth graders, the thing I say to them on the first day of school is, um, your emotional and physical well being will always be more important to me than the math. And that means that if you come to me and you say, I didn't do my homework last night, I'm going to say, okay, cool, what's going on? Can I help? How can I support you? What do you need from me? Right? As opposed to like coming at that with, with like a, Oh, you have to have this punishment now if you didn't do your homework or whatever. Right? So like being clear with kids that like, I am here for you and you can trust me is, it's explicit. And it's also, it just takes time. You got to prove it to them, right? They have to, you have to show them over time. You know, we show up over time, right? Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:07

And this is just not unlike any relationship, like romantic, friendship, whatever. It's that, like, you know, trust isn't just built in the words you say, but in proving the validity of those words with your action. So, like, you can't, you know, you can't say, I trust you and then be like, but I also need to sit next to you every time you say something to just make sure. You know, like then a kid knows like, no, you don't. And I, and I love that. And I also think it's really important to like, really point out that like you, if you're listening to this and you're like, I'm going to do this, you, you might be the first adult in a kid's life that shows them true and actual trust.

Zak Champagne: 27:44

And so remind yourself as a teacher that if you are in fact the first adult in a child's life that's ever said that to them, they're not going to trust you the first time. That it's going to take a long time. And so when you continue to fail like I do every single day, like we do every single day, just forgive yourself, know that it's okay, and that there might be some kids who you can do that all year long for, and it may never be until three or four years later that they come back and say, Oh my gosh, you trusting me, you telling me all that, like, did make a difference. You know what I mean? Like, it's not going to happen the first, the first day of school. It's particularly not going to happen for young people who've never had an adult that they can trust.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:23

And I mean, this is where I just think about math trauma and the fact that, like, you are in most cases dealing with students who have some sort of wound around math and it's going to take time for you to, like, actually help them heal that to a point where they can trust you. Like, I went to a public school and I failed grade 11 math twice, and fast forward, my parents sent me to this alternative school like a school for misfits. Teachers were called by their first names, we were allowed to chew gum in class, and we never had to raise our hand if we had to go to the bathroom. And it changed the entire dynamic because that, I felt that I was like, Oh my God, they trust us. Like they trust that if I have to go to the bathroom, I shouldn't have to ask cause I'm going to pee my fucking pants and I should just go, you know? And even just the, like the, the dynamic of calling them by their first names, like they're mentors. Anyway. So you can think there's so many ways to build trust is my point. Those little actions really worked for us in that school. So, um,

Zak Champagne: 29:18

Totally. We go by our first names in my school. I'm Mr Zak all day long. I love it. I actually would love it if we could drop the Mr. I would love to just be Zak, because it's, you're right, it changes the power dynamic in the room.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:29

And it does. And it's not like, Oh my God, then they're not going to respect us. Like no, in many cases, the respect just becomes a little more mutual, you know, and they feel that accountability for being like, I don't want to, I don't want to lose that trust. Like I want to be able to like chew gum and go to the bathroom when I need to. And so, yeah, yeah, it's cool, those little things. Okay, this is a podcast about math trauma. I know I keep saying that, but there's a quote I read by you somewhere who knows where, so you said, let's listen to our students no matter how ostracized they feel, no matter their relationship with math, no matter their race or background. It's our job to make each and every student understand that they are a part of something bigger and to let them know they matter". What do you mean when you say that they are a part of something bigger?

Zak Champagne: 30:12

Let me tell you the, um, the background on that quote. I wrote that, and I wrote a longer blog post about this, um, right after the Marjory Stone, um, oh gosh, the name of the school in Florida where the big shooting was, um, Marjorie Stoneman Douglas. That's the name of the school. So after that, it was that horrific shooting, 20 plus people killed, um, just a terrible thing. And, you know, there's after every school shooting, there's always this crazy argument from both sides about is it about guns or is it about people? And, um, I tried to like, just like stay clear of that whole thing for a minute and just say like, you know what? Do you know what actually matters more than any of that? Is that the kid who committed that horrendous act felt so ostracized, and felt so not a part of something, that they felt like they had to do that? And so for me, what that's all about is like, as a math teacher, as a teacher of young people, like, let's make sure kids feel like they're a part of something. I don't care what that something is because it gives them a reason to keep going. And so we have the opportunity as math teachers to make them feel like they're part of the classroom. They're part of, um, they have, they're connected to me. They're connected to each other. They're connected to the content. That connection, I think, is one of the ways we help people feel like they're not alone and feel like they are a part of something that matters. And so I think we have the opportunity to do that as teachers is make sure that no matter what that kid looks like, sounds like, how different they are from you, that they feel connected to something in your room. It's a tiny, tangible thing that you can do, I think, that will make a big difference for a lot of kids if they feel like they're connected to something.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:54

It's interesting because, um, have you, first of all, that's such an incredible way of looking at it, and I always feel like math teachers have this opportunity that no one else does because so many kids feel like they're not a part of the math community, that you have this, like, opportunity to, like, just fix that right there and then. Um, Have you heard of the Blue Zones?

Zak Champagne: 32:15

No,

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:16

world's five blue zones? Um, they're the five countries in the world where people live the longest, most fulfilling lives. So people have been like, one of them is like Linda Loma, California. One of them's in Greece. One of them's in Japan. One of them's in Italy. They've studied them and they've found these characteristics that all these places have in common. Like one of them is like access to like farm to table food. Another one is whatever. But one of the things is purpose. It's, it's even when you're 92, when you've retired, whatever, it's waking up and knowing there is a purpose to you going through the day. So a lot of these places are places where, um, they live intergenerationally, where like they take care of one another, like where they farm, like whatever. And it's like this idea of like when you are purposeless there is this darkness that is inexplicable because truly why the fuck are we on this planet? What is the point of it all? Right. So, and kids, even though they might not phrase it in that way, especially think of the monotony of going to school every day and like slogging through, like why the f why?

Zak Champagne: 33:16

Can you imagine how fucking hard it is for a third grader to walk into the classroom every day? And here's what we ask them to do. We ask them to sit down and try a problem they've never frickin done before. Can you imagine if every day for the rest of your life you had to go into like a honors calculus class? And in front of your friends, we're gonna ask you, Hey, solve this thing you've never done before and if you feel really good about it, tell everybody how you did it. That's frickin terrifying, dude.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:38

And why?

Zak Champagne: 33:39

so giving them purpose, like when you were talking about purpose, I think that's a better way to talk about this, which is like, there's got to be something, some reason I'm going to show up and try this today. Right? I have to have a reason to show up here today. And again, whether that connection or that purpose is like some some connection with me as the teacher, whether it's a classmate, there are a group of classmates that you have. Or the content, I think we have to acknowledge to that, like some kids do really feel connected to the content. There's something that they like about math, right? And that's a beautiful thing. And so how do we help them remember that connection so that they have the purpose that that you're talking about? Why are they called blue zones? I don't, I missed that part of the

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:16

Um, I, I actually don't know. That's a

Zak Champagne: 34:19

I thought it was going to be a sad place, like when you said blue zones, I was

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:22

Why are they called? Okay, David, David, note from producer."The name Blue Zone derived simply during the original survey by scientists who used a blue pen on a map to mark the villages with long lived populations."

Zak Champagne: 34:35

Stop it right now. Fantastic.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:39

Okay, that is, David, wow, what a great producer. Um, We have to do the final two questions.

Zak Champagne: 34:44

Let's go.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:45

Okay. That is the sound of Zak rubbing his hands together in anticipation. Question number one. If there was one thing you could change about math education, what would it be?

Zak Champagne: 34:58

Um, I would lessen the number of God. This is gonna be controversial for some people. Stay with me here.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:04

Let's get cancelled together. Let's do it.

Zak Champagne: 35:06

Let's go. I would lessen the number of like, content things we need to check off in a given year so that we can provide space to allow kids to think about and talk about the math that they're learning. So many teachers are asked right now to teach one standard, one day and it got to move on. I don't think people learn like that, I don't think anyone learns math like that. And so if we can, we can lessen that checklist of like all the things you have to do for a third grader and third graders can just engage with math, and talk about math and think about math, I think we're gonna have more incredible problem solvers coming out of our classrooms.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:47

Great, that was not that controversial. So,

Zak Champagne: 35:50

Well, I, I,

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:50

I wish you said something a little juicier, to be honest.

Zak Champagne: 35:53

Dang it. All right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:54

You still have a chance. There's one more question. What do you say to someone who's like, cool story, but I'm just not a math person?

Zak Champagne: 36:01

Um, you know, I, I push back a little bit on the, like, look, I 100 percent believe that everyone's a math person, but I think that like the simplistic, like, Oh, are you a person, and do you do math, like, you're a Like, I don't, I don't think that's very convincing, actually, I don't think people are like, Oh, yeah, you got me, um right. Um, it's like, I think, And don't get me wrong. I think that, that whole thing comes from a space of like, good intentions, right? Like, of course, of course, we want you to believe that about yourself. Um, so, I also don't think like challenging them is like the right thing either. I don't think saying like, Oh, do you calculate how much you spent at the grocery store? I'm not sure that's it either. I don't think that's,

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:40

We don't like that?

Zak Champagne: 36:41

Maybe it is, maybe it works for some people, but like, I actually think like saying like, wow, like your experience like has, has made you believe that you, you don't get to engage in math. I get, validating at first is like really important. Like you've,

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:52

Love that. Yes.

Zak Champagne: 36:53

You've experienced trauma. Like, if you really are a grown person and you believe that about yourself, like I hear you, I get that. And like that has to be, that's very real. And so I think sometimes when we say, but you are a math person, we're unintentionally communicating to them that their experiences aren't real. That their experiences with math weren't real. So starting from a space of validating and acknowledging that, like what the trauma, the experiences they had are real and they matter. But then also saying, like, there's a way to repair that. Like you, you can come to know things about math that are really exciting and really interesting and really fun. No matter where you are in your journey of life, whether you're three or 33 like you, Vanessa, um, I mean, wherever you are in that journey, like you can repair that part of it. All right,

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:38

My God, um, I love that. I really love that. That's very much my strategy. Okay. Fuck. I'm really sad that this conversation is ending, but it has literally been a treat. My question is, there anything, what?

Zak Champagne: 37:50

Yeah, I have a question for you. We're gonna flip the script here. So, you know, as again, as I said at the top, I'm a long time listener, but first time caller, which means I've listened to a lot of podcasts, but I've never been on it. Okay. It's what it means.

David Kochberg: 38:01

I've heard that before, I get it.

Zak Champagne: 38:03

Yeah, there you go. David's with me. Okay. So like radio shows back in the day, people would call in and say, Hey, long time listener, first time caller. And then they like ask a question on the radio.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:12

Ooooh. What's a radio?

Zak Champagne: 38:15

Exactly. So as a long time listener and first time caller, um, I've noticed that you, you mentioned to some of your guests that, um, that you're their best friend like Crystal Watson. And I wonder why you haven't mentioned that we're best friends yet. I'm just, I'm just putting it out there. I don't know. We just spent all this time.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:35

Do I do that?

Zak Champagne: 38:36

I mean, you've said it a couple of times that like, yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:38

Oh my god. Who have I said that to other than, wow, this makes me feel very like inauthentic. How many best friends do I have?

Zak Champagne: 38:45

You can have lots of best friends. I just wonder why I'm not one of them. That's all. I

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:48

Um,

Zak Champagne: 38:49

It's fine.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:49

I, I would say that after this hour we've spent together, look, I'll tell you this. I spent longer on the pod with you than anyone else. I do not, I'm normally in my hard half an hour stop. So like that says Yeah, I wouldn't say we're at bestie level yet, but like growth mindset. Yet.

Zak Champagne: 39:05

We're gonna get there.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:06

We're gonna, we're gonna get there. Okay, great. Is there anything I did not ask you about that you'd wanted to say?

Zak Champagne: 39:12

No, I think we did it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:13

Can, can you plug yourself? What are the things you want people to know? Where do we find you? How do we stalk you, how do we find out how old you are?

Zak Champagne: 39:20

Perfect. I'm Zak Champagne. I'm 47 years old, born August 5th, 1976. Um, my website is, um, Zakchamp, z a k c h a m p dot com. Um, you can find my writings and, and my thoughts there. Um, I was active on Twitter for a long time, uh, the handle is the same@zakchamp. I, I, like I mentioned earlier, try to shelter myself from that place right now because it's toxic and gross. But I do, I do check in every once in a while. So that's a good spot. Um, and then you can contact me. If you go to the website, you can get my email, stalk me there, write me. I would love to hear what you're thinking about. If there are things today that I said that challenged you or, or maybe you're one of my haters now, please reach out. I'd love to be able to tell Vanessa I have a hater.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:04

Thank you so much this was the fucking best. I love this.

Zak Champagne: 40:07

You are the fucking best. This is awesome.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:09

So fun.

Zak Champagne: 40:10

I also kind of love David. So, just so he knows.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:12

You do?

Zak Champagne: 40:13

Yeah, he's great.

David Kochberg: 40:14

We're best friends, Zak. I'll be your best friend.

Zak Champagne: 40:16

That's what I'm talking about. You see that? That's the level of energy I need you to bring and David's bringing it for you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:21

We have to say bye.

Zak Champagne: 40:23

Okay. Go ahead.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:25

Goodbye.

Zak Champagne: 40:27

Goodbye.

David Kochberg: 40:29

Great job.

Zak Champagne: 40:30

That's the most anticlimactic ending.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:34

Okay, I get it guys. I am sold. I am all aboard the Zak Champagne train. I mean, what a guy! There is so much I loved about our convo, but what stands out to me is just how important it is to do the real legwork required to build trust in our classrooms at all costs. I know it takes time, and I know most of us don't have any of that, but without trust, it's There's no vulnerability. And without vulnerability, how can we truly expect our students to notice and wonder with the reckless abandon needed to truly discover mathematics the way they deserve to? The way Zak talked about the opportunity teachers have to really make a student feel like they belong to something just reminded me that sometimes the most important thing you can do to help a student is just listen and make them feel like someone cares about them. And that fills me with so much hope and reminds me why we're all in this work in the first place. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.