Howie Hua: 0:02

When I was an undergrad, I thought of my professors as like mini boss battles, it's like, I need to defeat this boss to get my degree. now that I'm on the other side, I'm like, no, the teacher and the student are on the same side. I think math can be marketed better. Maybe they don't want to watch like a 20 minute YouTube video, if they just want a one minute explainer, I can do it. I joined TikTok kids are there anyways, might as well just have them learn while they're on there.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:28

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Who is ready to meet a real life math TikTok celeb? You are, I am, we all are, and it is happening. Today, you're going to meet Howie Hua, math teacher extraordinaire and viral math celebrity, who is legit making math cool on the internet. If you know me, you know just how obsessed I am with improving math's horrible reputation in mass media and Howie is doing just that by making it fun and accessible to absolutely everyone. Today you're going to find out how he's doing that, why it's such an important factor in helping our students build better relationships with math, and the most TMZ level gotcha question ever posed on this podcast: what is your favorite number and why is it 7? The answer will shock you! Howie, welcome to the podcast.

Howie Hua: 1:41

Hi Vanessa, thank you so much for having me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:44

I'm so excited you're here. Just for the listeners to know Howie's hair looks amazing. Basically the Justin Bieber of math right now. Very jealous.

Howie Hua: 1:53

Aw,

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:53

Okay. So I have to say, you were the first TikTok celebrity I've had on the podcast since, I've only had one other one and it was Kyne. Do you know who that is?

Howie Hua: 2:03

She's amazing, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:04

And I feel like I had her like before she broke because now she's so famous. But what I was going to ask is, so like Kyne obviously does, she has a whole thing of doing math and drag. It's so incredible. I love it. I'm so glad it's taken off. But you've also taken off for doing math on TikTok. And I wondered if you could explain to us like what your thing is, like what do you do?

Howie Hua: 2:24

What my thing is, um, I just really like explaining the whys, because I think people just deserve to understand what's happening, and there's a lot of K 12 math that I didn't really understand when I was a student. Um, it wasn't until I was a teacher after my master's in math, that I'm like, Oh, that's what's happening. so I just wanted to share all of that. I'm super low tech. I just use a whiteboard. so yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:48

Well, I think that's actually one of the coolest things about you because I'm really big on making math accessible, right? To like everyone. And TikTok, I feel like social media gets such shade because people don't take the platform seriously. But you're like, my goal is to reach people that wouldn't traditionally be trying to learn math, right? Like, otherwise they would be in school or they'd be like at teacher's college or whatever. So you're reaching all of these people who happen to be on this platform, many of whom probably have never been interested in math before.

Howie Hua: 3:17

Yeah, that's half of the reason why I made a TikTok. One half was that I'm a very sentimental person. I hate things ending. So, uh, half the reason why I made a TikTok was because I wanted to still teach my past students who are future teachers, or currently teachers. And, you know, I do teach math, so there's a lot of math that I cannot teach in class because it's not, like, part of the curriculum or the standards. So I'm like, hey, like, if you still wanna, I have a newsletter, I send them a newsletter if they want to still hear from me. They can sign up using their email address and I said, if you still want to learn math from me, I just made a TikTok. So follow me there. And the other half was that I think math can be marketed better. So maybe they don't want to watch like a 20 minute YouTube video on something, it's like, if they just want a one minute explainer, I can do it. I joined when TikTok had a one minute cap, um, so it's, like, try to explain it as quickly as possible and as succinct as possible. So yeah, that was half the reason why I made a TikTok in the first place, because kids are there anyways, teenagers are there, adults are there, so it's like, might as well just have them learn while they're on there,

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:24

What do you think, like, it's interesting what you just said about being like, try to explain it as fast as I can in a minute. I think there are so many benefits to that, just because, like, first of all, I certainly have zero attention span, and I know that most kids don't either, but I actually get a lot of shade myself whenever I, post something, like, okay, sorry, I've ranted to every podcast guest about this. And you're going to be, you're going to, this is going to be our supercut is me ranting about this. I've been getting all this shade for talking about the times tables and not like fully explaining. So for example, like I did this minute long video about like how cool the nine times tables are and all the tricks you can do. And all of these people are like, you need to explain the why and this and that. And I'm sort of like, Okay, but the whole point is I have one minute and I'm trying to engage an audience that otherwise wouldn't be engaged, and to pique their curiosity. Do you feel that's irresponsible of me? Do you feel there is a benefit and a curse to only having a minute? Like, what are your thoughts?

Howie Hua: 5:16

You could always have a second part. It's like now that I piqued your curiosity, here's why it works. So you could do a second part. But like every video has its purpose and like no one can expect a video to be like complete, you know. It's like, there's going to be something, that you missed or that someone misses or whatever. So it's, we just need to all accept that like not everything can fit in a single video. There's always going to be different cases to consider and all of that. So

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:43

Do you, what kind of reaction do you get from your videos and who is your audience? Like, do you find that people like, are like, Oh my God, I never liked math and then I found your account?

Howie Hua: 5:50

Yeah, there's like half that and half like, I'd rather do the long division algorithm. It's like, okay, but do you understand what's happening? Like, um, do you know what carry the one means? Do you know what bring down the two means? So there's that, but everyone has different values. So I don't take any of that too seriously. Some people are like, I just want to get the answer and that's great. Some people are more like, I want to understand what's happening. That's great. But I just need to remember that everyone has different values and you really can't please everyone.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:20

Well, that's wise words. I mean, I need to hear this because, what do I say to the trolls? Like, do you have haters?

Howie Hua: 6:25

I don't even reply to them just because it's like, they want that. Yeah, I mean, like, there's a lot of accounts that just don't have their like, actual name, their picture. So if you're hiding behind an anonymous name, you're going to talk whatever you want, with no consequences, they're going to feel like that. So I don't really take any of that to heart.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:43

Wow, you're a better person than me, Howie. Thank you so much. Um, I, So I've heard a lot of talk lately about humanizing mathematics. People love to say the term humanizing mathematics. And I often wonder, like, when a term gets so big that we just use it without contextualizing it for people, what it actually means. And I actually wondered when I was thinking about you, I was like, does humanizing mathematics have to do with making math accessible to more people? Like, what do you think? Are those two things, like, is what you're doing humanizing mathematics?

Howie Hua: 7:15

So when I think of humanizing mathematics, I think that, when I was in K 12 and even in my bachelor's program in math, I just wished that I was a robot. I wished that I could just like memorize all of these things. Even like when I finished my bachelor's degree, or actually during my bachelor's degree, I thought that to be good at math, all I needed to do was memorize formulas, theorems, definitions, and just that's it. Like that's what it means to be good at math. Um, so rather than wishing that you're a robot that, we just think about how math is creative, how math is accessible, that we think of math in so many different and correct ways, and just honor that and go from there.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:54

Hmm.

Howie Hua: 7:54

To see that there's so many different ways of approaching a problem, it's not just about memorizing, and all of that. And just make math class a way of we're just like listening to each other, building off of people's ideas rather than like, just follow this algorithm and then you're good.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:11

Do you think that like in doing that, because in a way you're doing that too, right? You're kind of like here, I'm doing this on a different platform, I'm sharing a different perspective with a different audience, like allowing different people to access it, which to me is like the epitome of humanizing mathematics, right? Allowing everyone to feel like their humanness is respected and belongs in the math class. How closely do you think our lack of doing that leads to math trauma or, like, math anxiety for kids? Like, how related are those two to you?

Howie Hua: 8:40

Yeah, I teach math to future elementary school teachers, and a lot of them, I ask them like, raise your hand if you've ever done it a different way than your teacher, and you got it correct, but they marked you wrong because you didn't do it their way. And almost every single time everyone raises their hand. Um, math should be accessible and math should be, understandable to them. It's like, well, it made sense to me. I did a long division algorithm video maybe two weeks ago and so many students, or not long division partial quotients, like what's with this new way of dividing even though it's not new.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:13

Wait, what is that? What is the, what, tell me what it is.

Howie Hua: 9:16

Yeah, so like partial quotient. So say that we're doing, 136 divided by four. Partial quotients would be, okay, how many 4s are in 136? Someone can say, well I know 25 4s is 100, I have 36 left, I know 9 4s is 36, so we just combine what we have, so 25

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:37

Wait, what? I've never done that! Is it 25 plus 9?

Howie Hua: 9:41

Yeah. So

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:41

Wait, I love, see, this is what's so cool, is like my mind would never work that way. Like I get what you did. I would never think to do that in my life. Like why would I choose a hundred and why would I choose, like, I have so many questions also for everyone listening, if you're like fucking stressed out right now, it's so hard to do this kind of thing without paper. So like, just keep in mind that like, this is hard for even me. Like I'm like looking into my brain for these numbers. And I also, I never do math with guests on the podcast. This is the second time I've done it ever, because it's actually, I get serious math anxiety. Like I start being like, Oh my God, what if I can't calculate this? But also who fucking gives a fuck the whole point is that we're learning. That's the whole point is like, we don't know everything. Okay, so I totally took away from your initial point, which was that you were doing a video on partial quotients.

Howie Hua: 10:26

Yeah. And so many people would say like, that is how I would naturally do it, but, the teacher would mark me wrong I didn't do it with long division.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:34

i see. Okay. So here's the thing. You know, we're on a podcast about math trauma and about math anxiety, and you were talking about what like prompted you to do this is even though you have a degree in math, and in teaching, you were kind of like, I don't even understand the math behind what I'm teaching, like, I was never taught it. Have you, Have you ever felt anxious around math? Like do you have you ever had anxiety around math yourself?

Howie Hua: 10:55

Yeah, uh, there was, one class in college that made me cry. Um, on the first test, I got a 48%. and I was literally, when I saw that, I was in my bedroom, just like laying on the floor crying. Cause it's like, how am I going to recover from a 48 percent, on my first test?

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:14

Well, how did you do it?

Howie Hua: 11:16

Well, I ended up with a C with a 66 or 69 percent. So, yeah, I'm very grateful. Only six of us passed out of like 24 students. It was a really hard class. Um, so,

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:29

I have some questions this. The first is, was that the first time you experienced any sort of like nervousness around math?

Howie Hua: 11:36

Yeah, and it just, and it, it just like, okay, like, screw all of the creativity and all of that, I just want to memorize things. Cause like, when you're in a, when you're in a situation like that where your grade is on the line, it's like, I'm just going to do my best to memorize. I'm not going to care about anything else. I just want to memorize this and that's it. There's no joy. It was just like, just memorize as can.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:58

Okay, but you've hit on something really important. Because it's, you know, I talk about math trauma a lot, and when we think about math trauma, we always think it's like some huge thing, like someone yelling at you or being bullied. But we all have these little tiny like wounds around math. And I don't know if, would you ever, would you consider yourself as someone having experienced math trauma or no?

Howie Hua: 12:17

Uh I mean, does it count that when I look at an exit number, whenever I see that math course number, I get, like, I get really, not scared, but I get, I just remember that math class. Yeah. Then, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:31

Because that's, and it's not again, I'm not trying to be like, Howie, you, come on my podcast so I can tell you your traumas. I'm just like, I actually think it's really important for us to relate to our students this way and being like, we've all had at least one experience with math that has made us feel like very uncomfortable. And I've never actually heard anyone talk about what you're talking about, which is that, and I don't want to phrase this wrong, so tell me if I'm incorrect, but it's like, you're going along your life, math is joyful, math is good, and some experience in math made you feel like the joy was much less important than getting the grade.

Howie Hua: 13:07

Yeah. Yeah, because, like, I don't want an F on my transcript you know? don't, I want like, I want to graduate with honors. Like, I don't want to retake this class.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:16

That's deep to me because it's like in that moment you had to sacrifice the joy you felt your whole life and be like, what strategies can I use to just get the mark? And I would wager that our students feel like that all the time.

Howie Hua: 13:28

Mm hmm. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:31

So how, how is it fair of us to be like, Don't worry about the mark, like joy, creativity, la, like, what if someone had said that to you?

Howie Hua: 13:40

Yeah. I mean, like, right now, I do tips of the day. I start every day with a tip of the day. And it's really funny that we're talking about this because the next tip of the day that I'm giving to my Thursday class is"focus on the learning, the grade will earn itself". Um. And before that, one of my previous tips is that"The teacher and the student are on the same side". So just like building that relationship, it's like, hey, we're all on the same side. Because when I was an undergrad, I thought of my professors as like mini boss battles, like in the way of getting my degree. It's like, I need to defeat this boss to like get, get my degree. But now that I'm on the other side, I'm like, no, like teachers want to help students. Um, So, I'm very big on being explicit with my students. It's like, hey, remember, we're all on the same side, so ask as many questions as you want, come to office hours. If you're too afraid to ask questions in front of everyone, just ask me after class, before class, through email. But yeah, just being really explicit that we're all on the same side, and if you just focus on learning, I promise you the grade will earn itself.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:45

Do you? Do you really believe that?

Howie Hua: 14:47

Yeah, yeah because grade, the grade reflects the learning.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:51

Because the grade reflects the learning. I really like that because I also think this is a really important thing for parents and stakeholders to know when they're like, Oh my God, why are you wasting all this time with our kids and teaching them about like the emotional component of math and all this learning? And you're like, no. Like I always say this too, where I'm like, the goal of math therapy isn't for a kid to get a 90. But if you're helping a child build a better relationship with math, the grades will come. I mean, like, I'm not saying they'll get a 90, but like, they're going to end up doing better because they have all these math adjacent skills that will help them do better. They'll be more confident. They'll be more resilient. They'll be more enthusiastic. You know what I mean? Like all those things. So I think that's actually a really like profound, a really powerful quote. I'm saying powerful because I've said powerful in every interview. Um, I actually watched a video you just posted about how you don't like to use the word"you".

Howie Hua: 15:41

Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:42

I want to hear about that. That was juicy.

Howie Hua: 15:44

Oh, yeah. So my freshman year of college, I took a communications class and something that stuck out to me was she said you is one of the most powerful words. Like you did this wrong, you didn't get this correct, and that like stuck with me and that was like 14 years ago. I still remember that. So I'm like, yeah, you is a powerful word. So I try to avoid it whenever it's anything negative, like pointing out their work and saying, like, you got this wrong, you use the wrong formula. We could just like talk about the work without connecting it to the student. It's like, Oh, this formula would be used for perimeter rather than area.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:23

Oh my god.

Howie Hua: 16:25

Rather than saying like, you got this wrong, you know, so

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:28

I love that because I mean, I talk a lot about how powerful language is and like, it's funny because I've never even thought about this particular word. You know, I think about words like, oh, it's really tricky to use the word hard or easy, like there's so many to, but"you", who would think, yeah, like that idea of like. Would you say you should use the, or like maybe it's an okay idea to use the word you when you're saying something positive?

Howie Hua: 16:50

Exactly. Because it's so powerful, I would use it for positive. It's like"you did an amazing job". I can tell you put a lot of effort into this. So just know that the word you is so powerful that I would personally not use it for anything negative But I would absolutely use it for positive. Cause like written language can be interpreted in so many different ways. So like, even though I try to be kind, the word you can just like totally make it so personal. It's like, you forgot to do this. Like they could take it so hard. And like, I don't blame them because, it's just written. They can interpret it however they want. So, I just avoid it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:28

Honestly, that's such a great tip and it's so easy do, right? Like I love things that you're like, this is so easy. This is just a really quick fix. Okay. Oh my God. This is incredible. You're an incredible human being. Do your, do your students think you're so cool because you're on TikTok? Like, does it make you like, do they listen more?

Howie Hua: 17:43

This, this semester was the first semester, that students actually registered for my class because they knew me from TikTok. no one else before this knew, but

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:53

That's cool!

Howie Hua: 17:54

yeah I tell them, it's like half the reason why I make this, why I have an account is for you. so, you'll notice that I do a lot of like repeated videos. Like I'll just like remake them. And it's more for my students. It's like, hey, let's talk about the different ways to subtract. Let's talk about long division. Let's talk about, greatest common factor. Half the reason is for my students, so they can watch it if they were absent, or if they need to prepare for the test, or if they need to re watch it again.

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:21

I love this. I love this so much. You know what? Honestly, my master's thesis was called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math, and it was all about how math has a marketing problem. It was all about that. It was like, what the fuck are we doing? Like, look at the media around math. Everyone who does math looks like a loser. When we advertise math to students, it looks so lame. Like it has such a branding problem. And I love that you're out there on the platforms where the kids are. Because I find with school, we're like, well, kids have to come to school so we can do whatever we want. We can make it as shitty we want and they have to come anyways. And it's like, yeah, but they're not going to like it. And I like that you're like, no, I'm going to go where my audience that I want to reach is. I'm not going to expect them to come to me. I'm actually going to serve them. Like I just think it's really beautiful and really cool and really noble. And this is a, if you can't beat them, join them. Like for everyone out there, who's like, Oh, social media, like kids, it's like, well, guess what? They're on TikTok, so do you want to talk to them? It's right there. Wow, that just tired me out. Okay, we're down to the final two questions that I ask everyone. You have 30 seconds to answer, it's not a hard 30, like, take long as you want. Okay, What is the one thing you'd like to see change about the way math is taught in schools?

Howie Hua: 19:28

I know it can't be, like, a standard, but I wish that there were more, like, built in surprises and curiosities, um, in math. I really wish that the Birthday Paradox, like all of the different paradoxes are talked about. Um, just things that like blow your mind, that you're like, what? Just to make students interested in math.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:50

love that. Surprises. That's so fun. I'm just picturing someone jumping out of a cake every day.

Howie Hua: 19:56

Yeah like, there's so many cool math problems that are online. I wish that, I don't want to say like, that it's mandatory for them to show it, but it's like, hey, let's take a look at this, to see, like, why does this work, what's happening, what's wrong here, why does this conclude to one equals two, what's wrong? Um, so, I wish there were more of, like, those types of problems, And, like, you can force it, a lot of those one equals two things is that you can't divide by zero, but I wish that it was more, like, explicit that, those types of questions are in the classroom.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:29

More clickbait in math class, is what I'm hearing.

Howie Hua: 20:31

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:33

Fuck yeah. Okay. And finally, what would you say to someone who's like, Howie, cool, great stuff, but I'm just not a math person.

Howie Hua: 20:41

Well, if you're a person and you do math then you're a math person, that's what I believe. I would start by saying like, well, how would you do some problem like 17 plus 18, right? And whatever their way is, that's their own and how they think about it is their own and everyone has their own way of doing things. And that's the beautiful thing about math. Math is so creative that, don't think that, oh, I'm not a math person because the long division algorithm isn't natural to me. Or whatever, something else is more natural. It's like, well, sure, like it's an algorithm. It works all the time, but like maybe your way is more efficient in other scenarios. Everyone thinks about math differently, and, because everyone thinks about math differently, we are all math people.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:24

I love that. I love that.

Howie Hua: 21:26

So, don't like, fill in like, this is what I think a math person is and I don't fit that characteristic. Um, nope.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:33

Is there anything you wanted to talk about that I didn't bring up?

Howie Hua: 21:36

Hmm, I think we are all good. Um, What is your favorite number?

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:43

Oh my God, that's right. What's, no, the question was supposed to be what, you were supposed to ask me, what is your favorite number and why is it? No.

Howie Hua: 21:52

No, what is your least favourite number?

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:53

Okay. You ask whatever question you want.

Howie Hua: 21:56

Yeah, because last time I said, what is your least favorite number and why is it seven?

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:59

Why did you say that? Why is it seven?

Howie Hua: 22:01

I was going to tweet about it saying like, what is everyone's least favorite number from one to ten and why is it seven? Um, and then you said that seven is one of your favorite numbers.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:10

It's my favorite number. But why is it your least favorite

Howie Hua: 22:14

No, because I just, you can't divide by seven mentally really well. Like, you can't tell if a number is divisible by seven readily, versus, like, all of the other single digit divisibility rules are so easy. Seven's just way too hard to do mentally,

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:28

Okay I've never thought about it this way. You're looking at like the functionality of the number.

Howie Hua: 22:34

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:34

I'm looking at like the aesthetic of the number. Like, seven is like a fucking wild ride. Oh my god, this reminds me that I'm going to guess your sign. Because I was about to be like, I feel seven is a very Gemini number. Don't make a facial expression. You're already doing it! What sign are you? What sign are you? Okay, just don't tell me. You hate seven. I love seven. I don't feel like you're a Gemini, but now I'm like, are you a Gemini? Don't say anything. Are you an air sign? Are you a water sign? You're not an earth sign. You're not a fire sign, in my opinion. I think you're an air sign. I think you're a Gemini. Are you a Gemini?

Howie Hua: 23:17

Do you want me to answer?

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:18

Yes

Howie Hua: 23:19

No, I'm not a Gemini.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:20

Yeah. Hold on. Hold on. Are you an Aquarius? No. Are you a Libra?

Howie Hua: 23:25

I'm not a Libra.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:26

What the fuck, Howie? What are you?

Howie Hua: 23:29

I'm a Leo.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:31

I don't know what to say. I did not see this coming, literally at all. Fine. I mean, I think Gemini, I think a 7 is a very Gemini number, and I feel like, what do you like, an 8?

Howie Hua: 23:42

What number do I like?

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:43

Yeah

Howie Hua: 23:44

Um, 8? 8's nice.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:47

That's a Leo number.

Howie Hua: 23:48

Out of any number, I think 16 or 24. I really like even numbers.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:53

So 8, so, but multiples of 8?

Howie Hua: 23:55

Yeah. I would say that. I'm an August birthday, so 8 is nice.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:59

Well, that's what I'm saying, and the Leo card, the Leo tarot card is an 8.

Howie Hua: 24:04

Oh, okay. Yeah, like, I'm the type of person that I need my volume on an even number, or else I think something bad's gonna happen. Like, it's that bad, where I'm like, I need it on an even number.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:17

Really?

Howie Hua: 24:18

Even ending in 5, I cannot do, I need it to be an even number, or else I think something bad's gonna happen.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:24

Wait, but really? Will you actually change it?

Howie Hua: 24:27

I will change it. Even if it's, like, way too loud, I will change it. I'm like, I'm sacrificing it. I'm sacrificing the loudness for an even number.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:38

Uh, that's amazing. Okay, Howie, tell us, tell everyone where to find you.

Howie Hua: 24:43

Uh, you can find me at, Twitter or X, TikTok, uh, you can go on my website, HowieHua.Com. H O W I E H U A.com. Yeah, you can just find me there. I have a Facebook page, Instagram page. If you just look me up, Howie Hua, that would be fine.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:59

You're amazing. You're so cool. Thank you so much. We're gonna say bye, but don't hang up. I'm really bad at saying bye, but let's try it anyway. Howie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. You are amazing. Everyone, go follow Howie on TikTok. He's so cool. And I'll hopefully see you in person soon.

Howie Hua: 25:13

Yeah, of course. Thank you so much for having me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:15

Bye. Okay, what a vibe! Wow! It just makes me so happy to know that there are people out there who might think they hate math, and then they like discover Howie's channel or like similar math channels that flip their view about what math could be. I really believe that this is a crucial part of how math needs to change in the public eye. And the work we're doing in the classroom, it needs to be supported by changing views of math outside our classroom walls. If you're not following Howie, go follow him now to be reminded that math can be many things, including a good time. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi. What is your favorite number and why is it 7? The answer will shock you! Do I sound like a wrestler?

David Kochberg: 26:43

Wrestler? What are you talking about?

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:46

Keep that part in.

David Kochberg: 26:48

In what? Now you're producing?"Yeah, put it in the trailer, in the outtakes trailer."