Show intro: Hi, I’m Vanessa Vakharia aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy - a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas, one problem at a time. When I was in grade 11, I failed math not once, but twice because I was told that I just wasn't a math person. Thanks to a math intervention in the form of an amazing teacher, I ended up scoring 99% in grade 12 math, and now I run The Math Guru, my very own math tutoring studio in Toronto. I started Math Therapy to take this conversation global and I like to think of it as not just a podcast but a movement. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist, but the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry - no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.

Episode intro: Hello and welcome to this week of math therapy where we are doing something we have never done before. You know, on this podcast we talk so much to adults about how math has affected them when they were kids but today we're breaking all the rules and we’re talking to two actual kids themselves and their mom of course, come on I’m not a total psychopath. This week we are talking to Tamara Rebick, founder and chief experience officer of Coriphery Holistic Consulting Solutions, a consulting firm that promotes respectful disruption in organizational culture. Like so many women out there, Tamara didn't have the best relationship with math growing up and it turns out, neither did her mom. Oh and there's another thing, she sort of totally had undiagnosed number dyslexia so like that was a bit of an issue too. Today, we talked to Tamara and her kids about her determination to show her two daughters that math ability isn't genetic and that anyone, even moms, can do math.

Vanessa Vakharia: Hi Tamara, welcome!

Tamara Rebick: Hi! Thank you!

V: So Tamara, tell me about your relationship with math growing up.

T: Hence math therapy, right?

V: Right, exactly, take a step back, take a seat.

T: I’ve come to the right place then. Math growing up. I would say that I was probably in a daze in terms of my relationship with math meaning that I didn't realize that I had a relationship with math until I felt like I had to leave that relationship.

V: Oh my god that’s happened to me with humans. 

T: Yes (Laughing). Yeah so the spoiler alert is that in second year university, after living with a group of girls who were really awesome, and one of them had a tremendous amount of support through the learning center, and I asked her a lot of questions about what the support looked like and why she was getting it. I took myself to the Learning Center, had my self assessment,  was diagnosed with dyslexia - specifically with numbers.

V: Wow, in second year university. 

T: Yes so that’s the spoiler alert.

V: This is really interesting because a lot of people don't know that that's a thing. How would that show up when you did math?

T: So if we're on the phone and you tell me an address or a phone number, if I don't write down the numbers and repeat it back to you, there's a good chance that I will flip the numbers, the order of the numbers.

V: Okay.

T: So now applying it to a math context, we’re talking about mental math. I can’t hold 2 or more digits in my head necessarily without having them flipped. If you tell me that you live at 357 whatever street, there's a good chance that I will have subconsciously written down 375. If I don't double check that, because that was brought to my attention, I was frequently making errors.

V: And this didn’t happen with letters? Just numbers?

T: That’s correct. 

V: Just because I want to point out to everyone because that is an actual thing, you can be one and not the other. It’s really important for people to know.

T: So what happens with letters too, which made it even more challenging when I decided that I wanted to be a politics and history student, so I had 10 page papers and 300-page readings on a weekly basis. The readings, actually I'm a very slow reader as a result, because I have learned that I have to be very careful reading slowly because I won't flip letters upside down or backwards so I can read no problem but I will sight-read words that have similar letters in a different order and then I read the word wrong.

V: Got it. 

T: So that's what the nature of the dyslexia was and the final conclusion of the assessment was because I was in second year university, my coping skills were so strong, because I got into university in spite of any kind of accommodations or anything like that, that I didn’t really qualify for any accommodations.

V: That is so wild to me.

T: Other than extra time for me to sit and think about how I didn't know how to answer the question.

V: This is so crazy because I actually went to see a psychiatrist a few months ago, just a couple of issues I was having. I was like, dude, do I have ADHD, a bunch of questions. Instead of diagnosing me, the psychiatrist said to me, “What difference does it make at this point? You've gone through this far of your life being high functioning and look at all you've accomplished, who cares?”, and I was like am I dying tomorrow? I have a lot more of my life to live. I'd like to know if there’s anything I should consider or could be doing that would enhance my experience on the planet. Okay, back to you. 

T: That then made me feel immediately sorry for my parents who spent so much money on math tutors, who couldn't really help me because that was putting a Band-Aid on a contusion. It was not the right diagnosis but nobody really knew and let's be honest, we're talking about the late 80s, early 90s, so everything was different then in terms of awareness.

V: No one knew about this stuff.

T: Differentiated learning, none of that existed.

V: You had been struggling with math basically, until this point.

T: Yeah and it was mental math. That was at the core of my struggle but mental math is a critical part of any… even when you're doing equations, whether we’re talking about fractions or long division or what have you, then never mind the complex stuff. It doesn't matter because in your mind, I had trouble borrowing in very simple subtraction. None of that made me sense to me and I had so many wonderful people tutor and help and support, including my brother who is this incredible math genius. For me it really jumped from being able to actually complete the work like I did with every other subject, to feeling an unbearable lack of confidence which translated into lack of self-worth when it came to things and then…

V: Can we talk about that though? I feel like that is what this is all about, I actually want to know. Obviously there's a lot going on here but at the crux of it is you feeling like as hard as you try with these tutors and your younger brother helping you, with all this support, that you're still not getting it and you just mentioned that it translated into a lack of confidence and a lack of self-worth. So can we just take a pause because look at you now.

T: I never would have believed it back then.

V: Right! So how did that make you feel? Give me a bit of a picture of this lack of self-worth that you talk about.

T: I grew up in a family that was completely built, it was a second or third generation immigrant family and so does this mindset of meritocracy completely dominated and informed how my parents themselves were raised, which was if you work hard you will become successful. That's how I understood the messaging around my life and my family was just so educationally focused and put education on a real pedestal.

Now I have this very distinctive memory, when I was in grade one and I got my first report card, I had no idea what a report card was and I didn't have any appreciation for what it meant. When I brought it home and I had gotten straight A's, the celebration, the pride, and the positive reinforcement that came with it, all I knew is that good marks equalled approval, celebration, and success.

V: How old were you? You were in like grade 1.

T: Six.

V: Isn’t that so crazy? It’s blowing my mind that we even give someone a report card in grade 1.

T: So as things got harder and my marks started falling because I couldn't perform or do, then there was a real equation by my teachers, of well she's not trying hard enough.

V: Right. Oh my god yes, I used to always get “not living up to your potential”…

T: Lazy, not trying hard enough, easily distracted, I’m too emotional.

V: We still do that by the way, that’s still literally the narrative for so many kids.

T: Yeah so I try not to do that. I taught in a classroom for a number of years and I was trying very hard not to project my own negative feelings about the classroom but I present myself as an educator who hated school, because I was, because I couldn't thrive nevermind really succeed in that kind of an environment. So when you fast forward to grade 11, it became this almost textbook and messed up model of, I would try to go after the hardest math things because if I couldn't conquer them, that it meant that I just wasn't smart enough.

V: Did you have that thought that everyone has, that’s, I’m not a math person?

T: So I actually think that that was part of it. I was determined to demonstrate that it wasn't that I was not a math person.

V: Ooh interesting, okay. How were your parents in this whole situation?

T: Very supportive in the sense that they tried to get me help with math tutors.

V: So they never made you feel like you weren't a math person?

T: No, no but I do think that the narrative of a math person, not a math person, organically came through. Even to this day, my mom jokes about her lack of math savvy and I think that I just assumed it and she's like, you're like me. 

V: Did that happen while you were growing up? 

T: I’m sure, absolutely, she’s like, “Oh don't worry, you’re like me.”. It was like a consolation of “Don’t worry, it's not your fault, it's in your DNA.”. 

V: Oh my god, you know how obsessed I am with this. So many parents do have that narrative with their kids, for sure people are trying to say it in a consoling way, being like, “You’re just like me, math wasn’t my strong suit, you’re good at other things.”. But it can be so damaging.

T: But then after a number of tries and a 13% on unit 3 in calculus, I went to see my guidance counsellor and just decided that it was time to call it with my relationship with math due to irreconcilable differences.

V: (Laughing)

T: The pressure was on for university and it was only then that I really took on that, “I guess everyone's right, I’m not a math person”, because I was doing well in the areas of history and social studies.

V: Okay so switching gears, you talk a lot about how the language that was used at home kind of infiltrated your mind in terms of your math ability.

T: I love you, mom (Laughing). 

V: I love you too. 

T: When she listens to this, it’s not your fault.

V: Tamara’s mom is the best. Not only that actually the truth is that many parents do this, this is a big narrative that we’re talking about in the media and education right now. It’s not only parents, I will say when you go out into the general sphere, there are so many people that just use the term math person as a consolation to be like, “oh my god, don’t worry, you’re not a math person”. I was working out and I was wearing a shirt with a math equation because like obviously, and one of my trainers looked at it in the middle of a workout and she was like, “2 plus 2… Ugh I hate it!”. I was like, “What?”, and she said, “I’m just not a math person.” and then I literally stopped the whole class and was like, hold on. 

We like to categorize as a way of consoling ourselves. If you don’t fit into this box, don’t worry there’s another one for you. That does happen and it’s so interesting because two things have happened since then. I mean obviously a lot has happened in your life, but you now have a business and you also have young girls. In both of those situations, you’ve had to reconcile your relationship with math to make those work. I want to say, let’s start with the business, many entrepreneurs and many female entrepreneurs or entrepreneurs to be, feel like the fact that they don’t identify as being good at math is actually a block for them and that they cannot start a business because of it.

T: One hundred percent. 

V: Did that ever occur to you when you were starting your business?

T: Totally! 

V: So what happened.

T: Totally. So I think that the first default I had was I immediately took stock of who else did I have within my trust sphere that I could rely on for that math piece.

V: So you were like, “I'm going to start this business but I'm not going to be able to do the math, what can I do?”

T: That’s right. I thought I was going to have to outsource. If I don’t have an appreciation and grasp for everything that happens as part of the operation of who my brand and what my company is about, then I can't be true to my brand and really represent it in its entirety. So I don't have to be able to do everything, I have to be able to understand what's happening. Which meant that I do outsource pieces and I sit to make sure that I understand the pieces that I have outsourced, not that I can do it all and I don't have to do it all, that’s a personal thing in terms of trust. Also it’s a challenge for myself because I don’t like to let my fears dictate my behaviour.

V: Can we just pause on that because I love that. Okay, great we’ve paused, continue.

T: My fear of math, the first time I did a strategic plan, my first gut reaction was to shy away from pursuing a project because there was going to be this massive budgetary component that was actually going to be quite sophisticated and so part of it was like, okay how do I outsource this? Who can I bring in to manage this? How do I trust that that's going to happen? This is my name on it and then I'm like, okay stop. I felt like I was on this hamster wheel. What is it that I'm actually afraid of? Then I was able to say, okay where do I really need help and where have I actually just gotten myself a little bit more fearful? I leaned into the fear a little bit and I was like, okay well this is where I need help with this and this is who I'm going to turn to for that, but actually now that I understand what it looks like now that I have this snapshot, I actually can do more than I thought I could do.

V: I love this too because I always say, I don't care who actually does math or STEM. I don't care if you go into it, I don't care if you're doing your own budget. What I care is that the reason for you not doing it is not fear based, that's all I care about. Like you just said, if you're like, “I'm scared to do it so I'm going to look into it”, you look into it and you’re like, “Guess what? I don’t want to do it, I don't like it, my time is best spent somewhere else” and you outsource it, great. If you look at it and you don’t do it because you’re too scared to, A) you’re not gaining a full picture of your business, and B) you are missing out by letting fear control your decisions. If fear is controlling one decision, what else is it controlling? I think that’s really important to say. You have made an effort to not let your fear of math control your decisions but instead to inform them and I think that's great.

T: You were asking me sort of about the jump, like now I’m a business order and how back then there’s no way I would have believed that I was doing this now, which is very true. That initial reaction when I was talking about my very first strategic plan that I did, when I was thinking about the budgetary pieces of it, I had the exact same sort of gut brain freeze that I did any time I saw a math problem, the word problems in particular. On any test or any homework assignment or any exam, is exactly the same freeze so now I think about the advice that you give and math hacks, and the conversations that we have at home. It’s like, just hold on one second, I can do this but when I look at it this way I don't feel like I can do it. How I feel and what I'm capable of are not always the exact same thing.

V: I love that. I think it's funny too because a lot of people will say this, because we have a lot of adults that are learning math with us now. I think what makes them able to is that exact body feeling you described, they've now had that so many times. I always say this to kids about breakups. You know when you have your first break up and you think you are literally going to die. You get through your break up and you’re still alive. When you’re 33 and you’ve had like 10 breakups, you’ve had that feeling so many times that you know you’re not going to die. I also have not had 10 break ups just so everyone knows, okay cool.

Anyways, all I’m saying is that now you’ve had it so much, you're able to go into that relationship or whatever knowing that the outcome if you need to break up with the person is not going to be as bad as you thought the first time. That’s the same thing with math, it's that feeling you had when you'd be on a math test and your stomach, your gut would wrench - that whole gross feeling. Now when you have it, you’re like wait a second, I’ve felt this before and I've gotten through it. It allows you to separate that from reality to be like, I'm having that reaction because I'm scared of it or because it's new or because I have a fixation that I’m going to be bad at it, but I also know that I have all these coping skills now that I didn't have before.

T: So I have this distinct memory of sometime probably in grade 11 in highschool, before my official breakup courtesy of calculus. I remember I had a friend who was over and helping me with math and I had the greatest math teacher of all the time, so patient, got me to even break the 75% on a test.

V: Wow!

T: Major success, major. 

V: Quickly, what did he do that was so different?

T: He was relatable, and the pressure was off and he was really about positive reinforcement but not in a disingenuous kind of way. He treated me like every other student as opposed to needing extra encouragement. He was just chill about it.

V: It’s so funny when people talk about the best math teachers and you ask them what it is, it’s almost always a personality thing, it is very rare because they knew so much math. No, they were kind, they were patient, they were encouraging, they believed in me, this whole emotional component. Anyways, go on.

T: Totally. So my friend and I were sitting, and math came really quickly to him and I felt this inner tension because I really liked math, I liked it in theory, I liked the fact that there was a right answer because it meant that I could feel a sense of achievement as opposed to all of this guessing with all of the essay writing. For me, I was just frustrated that my brain didn’t work in a way that I couldn't actually figure it out, so I wanted to like math and I just never could because it never let me but it was my brain.

V: It never let you (Laughing). 

T: Anyways, I have that memory.

V: I like this personification of math, though. I want to know how you have brought all of this into raising your two girls because when we were chatting before, you mentioned that you have really had to reconsider the way you frame math and talk about math in the house in order to raise kids that don't grow up with the same idea that you did.

T: Yeah so it’s funny, I didn’t really give any thought to what kind of a parent I wanted to be…

V: Does anyone though? 

T: Yeah! So I was never the kind of girl who planned my wedding or decided how many kids I wanted to have, or chose names for them. Life just sort of happened to me and it’s been like that professionally. I wait till opportunity knocks.

V: Oh my god this is exactly like me! 

T: The door opens and I choose whether or not I want to walk through it.

V: Do you think that’s okay because I’ve been having a crisis about whether I should have goals that I work towards or is it okay to just do that?

T: So that's a bigger conversation that we should definitely talk about. I went to a number of leadership-esque type of things in my early career and I got so sick and tired of hearing stories about people like Jim Carrey and Jerry Seinfeld, who knew what they were going to do and then they did their own workback schedule.

V: Oh my god this is what I’m talking about!

T: Jim Carrey wrote his 10 million dollar cheque to himself and shoved it in the glove box of his car that he was living in.

V: He definitely read Think and Grow Rich. That’s what it tells you to do. 

T: Jerry Seinfeld knew what he needed to do and mapped it out backwards. Anybody in any interview who has asked me, “Where do you see yourself in 5 years?”, I’m going to be thinking the same thing - I don’t know because I don't think that way. 

V: Honestly, I am literally so glad you just said this. We can stop the interview right now because I really need to hear this today. I’m just going to sum this up because I need to hear it for myself, you are saying there are many ways to go about whatever your version of success is, I don’t need a workback schedule, and I’m doing just fine, right?

T: Yes.

V: Thank you. Okay back to you. Your parenting, you never thought about what kind of parent you wanted to be.

T: That’s correct.

V: That’s how it all started and it turned into you parenting me. So go on.

T: I think that’s what happened (Laughing). So what happened with me was I think that I was extra conscious of what kind of a parent I wanted to be when it came to developing social skills and social coping skills for my kids because I ran through my own challenges like every single kid does. You feel isolated, you feel that you're alone, and then it turns out that it’s a universal phenomenon that everybody goes through social challenges and I had mine. I think I really turned my mind to that. It wasn't until my daughter was in the younger elementary grades that she started struggling with certain math concepts at her school and she came home and she's like, “I don't do math.”. First of all I was like, where did you hear that before? And then I checked myself and I was like, oh god, did I do that? Actually it was really more my husband who felt very strongly, who has a very positive relationship with academia in general, school in general, and very proficient in math and has this great sense of confidence and capability around it. Immediately, he was the one who jumped into, we need to reframe this and we need to catch this language. 

V: Wow.

T: What was really pivotal though was even though we helped her at a very young age in the reframe what we noticed is that as she went through her years, the math changed but it was her mindset that sort of stagnated and got stuck. Until she became much older and was still using the expression and I was sort of watching things unfold and she would come home with homework and say, “Well I'm going to wait until daddy gets home to do my homework because it's math tonight.”. At the beginning, I was thinking to myself that’s probably a wise move because all I remember from elementary math was really bad memories. Around that time is when my husband really instituted this expression based on… Our family had already initiated a relationship with you and love what you do with the Math Guru and Exam Lounge and all this paradigm of there is no such thing as a math person. He mandated it in our house, there is no such thing as a math person.

V: God I am so flattered. I’m going to make this all about me, but seriously that’s great.

T: The way that we work in everything is that we are a team and he said that and he said exactly what I had been feeling and hadn't really been able to articulate it and so I need to build on that. The next time she came home and was like, “Well I'm going to wait until daddy gets home because I have math”, I said “No. I'm going to help you with math” and she's like, “You do math?”, and I’m like, “Yeah I do math!”. 

V: And what happened?

T: I felt the same way as when I tried to apply for that very first strategic plan contract. I was like, oh my god please let there be something in her math book that I understand and I did. We sat down and we did math together and I helped her through the next three units of math homework.

V: Oh my god! 

T: I had these little moments of patting myself on the back but even more so it was really important to model for her, that even though we have grown up with this like “Oh I’m not a math person”, and when my mom comes over we joke about not being a math person, we realize we need to stop that because it’s actually limiting the capability. It's the mindset that limits the capability.

V: Absolutely. And it's so funny, I always say this to adults - you're a smart person, you run a business, I guarantee you could open a book and figure out how to add fractions. I know you can do it. It is funny as an adult, going back to doing math, getting that feeling in your stomach and then being like, hold on I have figured out way harder things. Is it math homework that she’s bringing? Stop, as if on queue. Tamara’s daughter just brought math homework to the table, I swear we didn’t pay her to do this. Just being able to just say to your daughter, yeah this is kind of hard for me but I’m going to figure it out with you right now, models not only that anyone can do math, but that it’s totally cool to struggle with something and figure it out and that’s part of the learning process, that’s great. 

T: That’s exactly it.

V: Have you found that it’s changed? Has changing your narrative changed the way they perceive themselves as capable or enthusiastic around math?

T: So I think it’s too soon to tell. I think that what's missing from this conversation, it's still very binary. It's either like, yes you can be a math person or no there's no such thing as a math person. The more I think about it, and I had this conversation really recently with my older daughter, that there seems to be this binary of either you are a math person or you're not a math person, or on the flip side there's no such thing as a math person. I actually think there's something in the middle.

V: What is it? I’m so excited.

T: It’s a conditional relationship. It’s not like you’re in or you’re out. On either side, it’s supposed to be this unconditional relationship with math. If you are a math person then it's an unconditional relationship of love because it works and you get it and you're going to work through it. If it's not, it's an unconditional relationship of peace, we’re done. On the other side, if there's no such thing as a math person, it’s also unconditional recognizing that no matter what happens, it’s not that I'm not a math person and so on. I actually think it’s a conditional relationship based on how it's being taught in this conventional model meaning that when you can succeed and your success means that you can actually do math and get that correct answer, then you can feel confident enough to say yes I like I like math. I like math when I’m successful but I don't like math when I don't feel like I'm successful, and you don't have that in a lot of other subjects because most other subjects don’t have a clear yes or no answer.

So the framework is more about, ‘How do we help people recognize that feeling successful is in part dependent on being able to get the right answer and in part about understanding the process?’. When so many teachers ask students to show their work and you can get part marks for showing your work, that's an amazing nod to recognizing that you should be understanding the entire process as well as getting the right answer.

V: I love this. So many people will say the reason they don't like math is because they're bad at it.

T: Right, they can’t do it.

V: They can't do it.

T: It doesn’t mean you can’t do it. Can you do it and get it wrong? Yeah!

V: You know what's funny? I always say to kids when they say that too is, name something you're technically not successful at that you like and often sports will come up. How many kids you know that just love sports even though they just cannot ever score or whatever it is? So I actually think there’s something more in there because…

T: It’s everything. This is the piece that I struggle with in parenting and in my own work. One of my daughters is very very serious about figure skating and the amount of time that she spends on the ice practicing, she loves skating because she loves everything about skating. She’s actually not a jumper, she doesn't love jumps, she loves other kinds of skating but that doesn't mean just because she can’t land her axel yet, that doesn't mean that she's not a good skater. It doesn't make her not a skater. So I think that again, it goes back to the framing and the mindset which inhibit the capabilities and the behaviours.

V: Totally.

T: There's that middle ground of saying, “It's okay to have a conditional relationship with math”, and recognize that being a math person means that you're okay sitting through it. We talk about what the teachers are doing, and what’s the role of the education system, and saying it’s okay to really learn how to be more of a risk-taker. Because if you're a risk-taker then you can be a math person. Or if you don’t want to use that language then if you’re a risk taker then you can find ways to be successful.

V: Yeah and we won’t get super into it because we have been talking for 10 hours but that has to do with the culture surrounding math. Because I’m also thinking with your daughter loving figure skating, there’s a lot to love in that culture, right? There are the great outfits, there are the people, there are the TV shows, and the glamorization of the sport, there's the athleticism, there's a lot surrounding it that can be really attractive even if you can't land a, what is it, an axel?

T: An axel.

V: Axl Rose, what are we talking about? There’s a lot around it and perhaps we have some work to do surrounding the culture of math and what type of people quote unquote “belong”.

T: And if I can reframe that, so I'm going to say that through a different set of eyes as a parent of a young athlete, what she loves about skating is she loves the teamwork, she loves the rigor, she loves the discipline, she loves the precision and she loves learning new skills and testing her limits. What she doesn't love is the actual jumping part. So jumps, which look like the biggest thing when it comes to watching it on TV, or the outfits or some of those other pieces, all of these first things I said, you can say that you love addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division, and what you don't love is binomial whatever or I don't even know what that means.

V: (Laughing)

T:  That’s the problem with math, is the binary. Either you're in or you're not. She’s a synchro skater, and she loves ice dance and she's doing her freeskate to advance her skills, but there are so many different parts and math becomes monochromatic in that either you can do it or you can't do it and that's not true. Math is not black and white.

V: Okay, we are going to go to the two questions that I ask everyone. What would you change about the way math is taught in schools?

T: I think that there needs to be far more gateways and touch points to feeling like one is proficient in math. It's not just about the right or wrong answer and it's not about being able to demonstrate proficiency and crossing the finish line. I think that putting an emphasis on what I was saying before, on how well can a student understand the analytical pieces of of the math, where is the value in the process, and it's not just about part marks but it's about being able to feel like you can take risks and you can be wrong and then not just like, okay well did you learn from your mistakes so that you don't repeat those mistakes again? But did you learn from those mistakes so you understand how the equation works? Those are two different questions.

V: I love it. I love the gateway and touchpoints to feeling proficient in math, I think that’s very interesting.

T: Going back to how do I do my work, it’s human centered. So let's talk about student centered, I think that it’s really about customizing an atmosphere, very much like what you do, in reducing inhibitors that are natural that come with natural anxiety-provoking performance pieces so whether it is a public speaking class or a math class, I think anybody who enters into either of those two doors is going to have the same level and degree of anxiety, and recognizing that part of the mindset to success of math is mitigating those anxieties from the onset.

V: Love it! Finally, what would you say to someone who says they're not a math person?

T: It's complicated.

V: Ugh! I love it. Thank you so much for being on the podcast, you gave us so much to think about and I can't wait to explore my black and white relationship with math and see what 50 shades of grey lie in the middle.

T: You have turned it into multicolor already in every way possible. I’m so happy to have the opportunity to join.

V: You’re so cute!

T: I can’t wait for this to be continued because it will.

V: Okay bye!

T: Bye!

(Transition music)

Vanessa Vakharia: Hello!

Nomie: Hi!

V: I would love for you to introduce yourself to our guests.

N: My name is Nomie, I am 9 years old, and I am in grade 4.

V: First of all welcome to the podcast.

N: Thank you.

V: Have you been on a podcast before?

N: No.

V: Do you know what a podcast is?

N: No.

V: Great, we’re off to a good start. (Laughing) Okay question number one, I really like your honesty. How do you feel about math?

N: Well it's hard, I like it. At first I hated it but now I like it. My parents banned the saying “I'm not a math person” and “I hate math” from our house.

V: Oh my god, what happens if you say it?

N: I don't know.

V: Do you owe them money or something?

N: No.

V: Do you have to do math on the spot?

N: No.

V: So they just banned it but there’s no consequences, I’ll have to talk to them.

N: I don’t know (Laughing).

V: You’ve never said it I guess.

N: Yeah.

V: Okay so it’s working!

N: Yeah!

V: Okay great, so they banned the saying, how does that make you feel?

N: Well at first I was so mad because I had to say it but now I don't care because I’m kind of better at math now so I like it, not saying it.

V: When you used to say, I'm not a math person, what did you mean?

N: Like, I'm not good at math, I hated it.

V: Do you think there’s such a thing as a math person?

N: I'm not sure.

V: Okay, what would it mean to be a math person? Could you describe this person?

N: They know math on the top of their head, they could be a calculator.

V: (Laughing) So it’s a calculator with legs.

N: Yeah!

V: Do you think people are born just knowing math off the top of their heads?

N: No they have to learn. 

V: So doesn't that mean anyone could be a math person?

N: Yeah but only people who put effort into it.

V: Oh my god that’s a really, really good answer. If you put in the time to learn something, you can become anything you want. 

N: Yeah.

V: Do you really believe that?

N: Yeah.

V: I love that! Okay great, good for you. What made you go from hating math to liking math?

N: Well I hated it because I didn’t understand it and I couldn’t keep up and I didn’t want to do my homework. It was hard, I just hated it but then the way that they taught math was really helpful. They teach it step-by-step and I started with simple division and multiplication and subtraction and then I worked my way up to long division and then I went to the Math Guru.

V: Yeah.

N: And they helped me understand long division and they helped me understand how to do math and helped me memorize my multiplication. Now what we're learning at school is fractions, like improper, mixed, regular. I found it hard at the beginning - mixed numbers are hard and improper is also hard. Converting them, which is my homework right now, is hard for me but I did the mixed numbers into the improper, the improper into mixed is a little hard. 

V: That is very exciting for everyone to know (Laughing). How you feel about every math topic. I have a question. You know how you said that before it was hard, so you didn’t like it, you didn’t like doing your homework, then you got help and you realized you could do it?

N: Yeah.

V: Can I ask you a question?

N: Sure.

V: Thank you because it’s my podcast.

N: Okay! (Laughing).

V: So now that you know that even though something is hard, you’ve proved to yourself that you can do it, right? Does it change for you, now that you’ve found something else that's hard? Like you just said that converting improper to proper is hard, do you feel like now that you've shown yourself you can do something hard that now you're more likely to keep trying when something gets hard?

N: If I try then I’ll improve and then I’ll get it and then it will be easy for me.

V: I think that’s amazing. I hope you’re really proud of yourself because I think it takes a lot of people time to learn that lesson and some people never learn that lesson. The only way you learn the lesson is when something gets hard, by continuing to try. Otherwise you give up and every time something gets hard, you’re like oh, I guess that’s just something else I can't do. That’s actually why people think there is such a thing as a math person, because what ends up happening instead of what you did, which was ‘I'm going to keep trying. I'm going to get good at it.’, people say it's hard, I'm going to give it up, I'm not going to do it and I guess I'm not a math person. But what you said which was so smart at the beginning, was you can be any type of person if you keep trying and I think you're very inspirational to be honest.

N: Thank you!

V: You’re kind of a guru yourself!

N: (Laughing)

V: Okay last question I’m going to ask you, if you could change one thing about the way math is taught in school, what would it be?

N: Uhhhh…

V: Are there a lot of things you want to pick?

N: I don’t know if I have something because I like the way they teach it and they helped me improve my math.

V: So why don’t you tell me what the best thing is? What’s your favorite thing about the way it’s taught?

N: I have two. My first one is that they do it step-by-step and it's simple, so it's easier for me to do it.

V: So you like steps?

N: Yeah step by step. The second thing, my teacher usually goes on to the ground.

V: She goes on the ground?

N: The floor of the portables.

V: Oh my god, what? (Laughing)

N: (Laughing) 

V: Okay we’re both snorting. For everyone to know, that wasn’t just me, both of us were snorting. So she goes on the floor of the portables and?

N: It’s like this.

V: No one can see you, we're on a podcast.

N: Well yeah it’s the floor that we walk on.

V: Yeah I get it. She goes on the floor and?

N: And she helps people who don't understand but sometimes there's another teacher who comes in and helps us with math.

V: I’m so sorry. Why is she on the floor? Just because? Is there nothing more to your story?

N: No, no, no she sits on the floor because she has to help people on the board and the floor is in front of the whiteboard so she writes on the whiteboard.

V: I’m just trying to envision the situation, so like I just didn't understand why she was on the floor, completely cool, no big deal.

N: She’s writing on the board so she can…

V: Oh so she sits on the floor so that everyone else can look at the board?

N: Yes! No! She writes on the board and then she sits down, and then she helps people with their math and it’s really helpful.

V: But why doesn’t she do it on a chair?

N: Well sometimes she does it on a table.

V: Okay so the floor has literally nothing to do with this story?

N: No, no it does because half of the time she’s on the floor and a quarter of it she’s on a chair.

V: What about the other quarter?

N: Uhhh…

V: You’re learning fractions right now, that’s great work.

N: I think half of it.

V: So half and half.

N: Yeah.

V: You learned some math here today, thank you so much for that.

N: Yay!

V: You nut job! Excellent work, thank you so much for being on the podcast.

N No problem! 

V: Hopefully by the time this podcast is published you will have learned what a podcast is so you can listen to yourself.

N: Great!

V: Bye!

N: Bye!

(Transition music)

Vanessa Vakharia: Hey girl hey!

Eden: Hi!

V: Okay, welcome to the podcast.

E: Thank you!

V: Is this your first podcast ever?

E: Yes.

V: Oh my god, that’s so exciting. Can you introduce yourself?

E: My name is Eden, I'm 12 years old and I'm in grade 7.

V: Amazing, such a good introduction, you’re a natural. Okay, I want to start by asking you how you feel about math, straight up.

E: It's not my favourite.

V: Got it. Was there ever a time when you kind of liked it or did you always dislike it?

E: I think the second one.

V: Okay, cool.

E: I’ve never loved it.

V: Can you tell me any reasons why? If you could think about what the things are that you don't like about it, are there any specifics?

E: I think I just had a negative start and I think it kind of ruined it.

V: So explain a bit more about that.

E: Well I went to Montessori school, so we were taught math using all these different materials which was great but when I had to do something in my head or I had to do something not using materials, I wasn't able to do it. That made me feel stupid because I was doing so well using the materials, so it made me feel like I wasn't good at math.

V: This is actually really interesting because there are a lot of schools that are trying out this approach, they call it abstract discovery methods, which is what you're describing. There is so much controversy about it so it's cool to talk to someone who actually grew up like that. Can you describe, cuz I think a lot of people would be curious to know what you mean by materials? Do you have any examples in your head? Give me anything.

E: So we had this frame and it had lines with beads. For division, we would take the number of beads in the question, so let’s say it was 48 divided by 2. You take the 48 beads and move them to one side and then we would move them into two different piles.

V: Oh and that's how you would do it.

E: Yeah and so I could never do anything mentally. It's good if you know how to do it mentally too because it helps you learn but if you're not taught how to do it mentally, it's not helpful.

V: That’s so interesting. It is really interesting because I think that's part of the problem with the way we teach math, is schools aren't really consistent. You went to a school that taught you that way and then obviously you moved to another school at some point that maybe teaches a different way. I’m sure that felt really frustrating for you. 

E: Yeah.

V: Because you have to take math for a while now, for a few more years at least…

E: I wouldn’t drop it. It’s so important.

V: Why do you think it's important?

E: Well it helps you with so many life skills. Everything we do revolves around math so it's not something I would drop but maybe in a couple years I will like it!

V: Oh my god, what!? Eden, I'm so excited to hear you say that because so many people think that how they feel now is how they're going to feel about something forever, right?

E: Yeah.

V: So, your mom was saying that one of the things you love about skating is you love practicing. Is that true?

E: Yeah, the more you practice at something, the more you like it, the more you get better at it.

V: Is there anything that you find that you practice in your life that you actually don't like but you practice because you have to practice to get better?

E: French.

V: Okay, yeah (Laughing).

E: Math.

V: Okay.

E: Some of the sports we’re learning in gym class.

V: So that’s a really good attitude to have though. A lot of people don't realize that obviously if you practice something, you're going to get better at it. Have you ever learned something in  math and really understood it and been like, oh my god this is actually so cool, I understand it?

E: No, it usually takes me a couple of minutes to get it or I need to go for extra help.

V: Are you ever excited when you finally get it?

E: Yeah, I’m always excited when I finally understand it.

V: So maybe it's a matter of finding more moments for you to feel that way. Maybe that’s something to actually think about because your mom also said, and I really love that she said this, she said one of the problems with school is that there's only a few moments you get to feel like, yay I got it, and usually that's a math test. That's the only time you get to feel like, oh I got it. So maybe if there were more times throughout the day or throughout class, or life, when you could feel like, yay I really got it, you might like it a bit more.

E: Yeah.

V: Okay so  let's maybe later brainstorm some ways to do that because I kind of want to find more ways to help my students feel that throughout the day.

E: Yeah, well I went to the Math Guru and that was a huge help.

V: Why did it help?

E: The school I was at, it didn't teach me my times tables at all so when I got to grade 4 that became an issue.

V: Sure.

E: So I worked with a tutor and there were fun, interactive ways for me to learn my times tables and I went home and I practiced, and now I know my times tables.

V: Okay so first of all, just so you know that makes you ahead of most of the grade 12 students we have. I told you, we have calculus students who do not know their times tables. Most of my adult friends don’t know their times tables. So yeah, you’re great at math wooh! Okay, I know that you guys have a rule at home that you're not allowed to say you're not a math person.

E: Yeah.

V: How do you feel about that?

E: I think it’s helpful because I used to say that all the time.

V: What did you mean when you said that?

E: Well I wasn't good at it, I had no future in it, but I think it's important to realize that if we work hard we can do anything.

V: I love that, oh my god put that on a t-shirt. Do you think there's such a thing as a person who is born being better at math than someone else?

E: No way. There are people who are born with different talents but talent only takes you so far, it's hard work.

V: Oh my god you've been reading a lot of those skating books, haven't you? (Laughing). I love it, I love it. This is very true though, people can be born with talent and never practice or foster it.

E: Or if you don’t work hard and you just take your talent for granted you won't get anywhere. So it's really the practice and the hard work that makes you good at something.

V: The truth is, if we practice at everything we could get better at everything. But we can’t practice at everything because there’s limited time.

E: Exactly. That’s more it. I'm putting my energy towards other things. If I really loved math then I would spend more time doing that, I would join the math club, I would…

V: Exactly. 

E: My interests are different.

V: I would rather hear you say that than say, “I’m just born in a way that I can’t do it.”.

E: No for sure.

V: So I think that was awesome and thanks for being so honest, it’s hard to do. It’s hard to figure out your thoughts while you're talking on a podcast but I think that was a really empowering moment for everyone listening so you rock.

E: Thank you.

V: Alright well that’s cool. I don’t have anything to say, do you have anything to say? 

E: No.

V: I think this was dope.

E: Thank you for having me.

V: Thanks for being on the podcast! Bye!

E: Bye!

Episode Outro: Such a cute interview and so much to unpack. We've never had three guests on one podcast, and I sort of loved it so hey, maybe we'll do it again. You know to all the parents listening, it can be really tough to feel the pressure of being like, “Oh my god, I don’t want to pass my math anxiety down to my kids.”. I totally get that but seriously, don't panic. You don't need to pretend to be a math genius or even pretend to love math, you can totally be honest with your kids and be like, “You know what? I didn't love math when I was growing up and I thought I couldn't do it but I know that with the right help or resources or whatever it is, that I could do it if I wanted to and so can you.”. It’s not about lying but more about not passing on the myth that math ability is genetic. Just like Tamara decided on a strict no saying the term math person in this house rule, you can make up your own rules to start breaking down the myth of ability. You do you, you've got this, and if you have any tips or tricks that work for you and your kids, please share them. Honestly, we could all use a little help sometimes.

To find out more about Tamara and her dope company, check out our show notes at themathguru.ca/maththerapy . Remember to follow us on all social media @themathguru and of course, a reminder that Math Therapy is hosted me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme song is Waves by my band Goodnight Sunrise. If you know someone who needs math therapy, please send them over to our podcast and consider leaving us a review on whatever app you use - it makes a huge difference. I am so determined to change the culture surrounding math and I know you are too so I need your help to spread the word. That’s all for this week and stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.