Show intro: Hi, I’m Vanessa Vakharia aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy - a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas, one problem at a time. When I was in grade 11, I failed math not once, but twice because I was told that I just wasn't a math person. Thanks to a math intervention in the form of an amazing teacher, I ended up scoring 99% in grade 12 math, and now I run The Math Guru, my very own math tutoring studio in Toronto. I started Math Therapy to take this conversation global and I like to think of it as not just a podcast but a movement. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist, but the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry - no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.

Episode intro: Hi hi hi, welcome back to Math Therapy. We are back this week with Mike from Toronto, Canada. A cloud software architect who legit went from failing math twice to getting a tattoo just this year of the very concept that caused him to fail math twice, a concept that he now understands after getting a math tutor at the age of 40. That’s right guys, his story is crazy and centers around my own personal favourite theme, Britney Spears. Okay fine, maybe that’s a total stretch but whatever. What I really mean is that Mike’s story is largely a tale of faking it until you make it, and realizing that asking for help isn’t a sign of weakness but the ultimate sign of strength. Yes, this all ties to Britney Spears so without further ado, let's get into it - it will all make sense soon, I promise.

Vanessa Vakharia: Oh my god, Mike! 

Mike Steirs: Oh my god!

V: Welcome to the podcast.

M: Thank you, big fan, big fan.

V: (Laughing) This is actually kind of funny because it’s Season 2, it’s actually true - you are a fan of Season 1. That’s why you’re on the podcast.

M: Yeah.

V: Okay, your story is actually super fascinating and I want you to tell it but first for our listeners out there to know, you are a student here at the Math Guru. You are an adult student.

M: Yep, 40 year old adult.

V: Oh okay we’re going right for the age. I didn’t even know you’re 40. Okay so we have a 40 year old student and I just think your story is so fascinating. Let’s start with why you're here. That actually sounds like a really deep existential question, but let's start with why you are a 40 year old student at the Math Guru.

M: Sure. So basically, I didn't pass grade 12 math. I tried to take it three times. The first time I did it I got like a 40% and then I went through the whole semester, I failed it and then I was like alright I didn't try hard enough so I did it again. Then I got a 12% because I gave up after like 3 weeks and then I'm like okay, one more shot at it. Then I just gave up on the second day.

V: Oh so that’s how you got a 4%. 

M: Yeah.

V: Because I was wondering how you would possibly even get a 4%.

M: I know right, I was actually kind of impressed that I was able to get a 4% because people were like, they don't do that, but I got a report card and I scanned it like a million years ago that shows a 4%.

V: How did you get that? DId you get just one question right?


M: I have no idea, it doesn’t make any sense. I didn't even take a test, you know?

V: Was it participation?

M: I guess so.

V: It’s for showing up.

M: So anyway, after that I kind of gave up on it. What happened was, up until grade 12 I was fine with math. They told me what to do, I did it, and I understood it. But then something happened in grade 12 where none of what they were teaching me seemed to be practical for anything. You know when students always say, “Where am I going to use this? What's the point of this?”. Yeah every teacher hates that question but it's true, you need to be able to demonstrate where you are going to need this. My teacher was like, “What do you want to be?”, and I was like, “I don't know, I want to do something in computers or whatever.”, and she said, “Oh well you're definitely going to need grade 12 math for that.”. She said that the first time I failed and then the next semester there was a poster on the wall that showed all these careers and where you're going to use your math skills or whatever…

V: Oh my god, I hate those posters!

M: Yeah! So I looked at it and I can still picture it in my mind, this poster is showing that I definitely need grade 12 math so I guess that's not my life. I'm not going to be in computers, whatever that might mean.

V: And the reason was I can’t get through this grade 12 math and I need it for computers therefore I'm not going to go into computers? Was that the thought process?


M: Yeah, exactly.

V: What was the reason why you couldn’t get through grade 12 math? Was it too hard or did you just not give a shit?

M: I know this is at the risk of sounding like one of those people who go, “I didn't really have to try in school, I kind of just did it, I took naps and did my tests.”, but it's somewhat true. I understood enough of everything in every class to the point where I knew how to just get by. I wasn't like throwing A’s all around the room, I was just passing. I was passing - you tell me what to do, I do it. It was applicable. But once it got to grade 12 math, I didn't understand it the first time somebody told me so I realized oh well, I guess this is my peak.

V: Oh my god, honestly though this does happen to our students all the time, not to go on a whole rant about it but it’s like a blessing and a curse. It’s like, “Oh my god, you're so smart and you just got by without doing that much work”, but then the problem is if you're used to that type of mentality, the second something gets hard, you're like, “Oh I guess it's just not for me.” because you haven't been trained to work hard at something.

M: Exactly, I don’t know how to dig deeper into the statement but it seems like nobody taught me how to learn.

V: Ooooh. Let’s just pause on that statement, how fucked up is that. What an obvious thing to say in a way because I bet you actually most students out there would get asked, ‘Did someone teach you how to learn?’ and they’d say, ‘No that's not what school teaches you.’. School doesn't teach you how to learn. It teaches you content. When does school ever teach you how to learn? But how fucked up is it that the school doesn't teach you how to learn? If there's one purpose of schooling, should it not be to teach you how to learn?

M: You would think… That whole doubt, self-doubt just goes throughout my entire life at that point because everything that I did up to that point, even if it wasn't education-based, I was just good enough. I played baseball as a kid - nobody was like, “Get out there kid and practice. You're going to throw the ball.”.

V: What? Why?

M: I just went and played baseball and I was okay at it. So everything that I was okay at, I thought I was that kind of person. I'm an okay baseball person, I'm an okay I don't know history person or something like that. At some point you hit a level where you just can't get any better it seems. I can't be the best person at a specific thing in the world - I can try, but the chances of me being the best is pretty low.

V: This is actually kind of hysterical because I literally said to David, the guy in my band and our editor, Hi!... I literally said to him last night in a fit of almost… not despair but I was like, “David, do you think that our band can ever be as famous as Lady Gaga?”.

M: (Laughing)

V: No but seriously! His response was so interesting because he was kind of like, “Why does it matter?”, whereas to me, I was like, “But if I don't think I can be as famous as Lady Gaga, what the fuck am I doing?”. We had such different opinions about it; he was kind of like, “but I don't need to be as famous as Lady Gaga, that's not my question.”, and for me I was like, “I need to know that I could be, if I worked hard enough.”. I need to know that there's a potential that I could be the best in the world, do you see what I mean? It's kind of similar to what you're saying it's like what is that attitude and how much does it really matter? It sounds to me like it was very deflating for you. 

M:Yeah I guess. If you're asking what that is, I would call it delusion because if you think you can be the best, and you actually believe that you will be the best at something, there's some things you can't possibly have that mindset for.

V: Like what?

M: You can't be the best president of the United States. There's things that you just can't do. Everyone has a limit and I felt like whenever I hit that point where I didn't understand something at first, that's my limit. Go search for something else that you'll be naturally good at until you hit that limit and just keep going until you hit something you don't understand. But that's not the right way to look at life. I like that you think you can be better or as good as Lady Gaga, that's amazing.

V: It’s true, you’re right. If I needed to think that about everything, maybe there are some things I wouldn't do. If you're like, ‘Okay I really want to be good at math. I believe if I could try really hard and if I work really hard, I'll be good at math.’. Whatever that means to you, like you’ll pass this course or whatever but what's stopping you is the idea that you can't be the best at it, then that’s a problem, right? Maybe this is a bit too into the weeds.

M: No it’s good. If I could say my goal for anything would be to be second best at anything I try. 

V: What does that mean? Second best to who?

M: Whoever’s the best, and that's okay because being second best is better than being first. If you’re better than Lady Gaga, if you exceed the capability of the Gaga, you now have to defend your position for the rest of your life, whereas second you’re just chilling, you’re just enjoying life being good enough. 
V: What the fuck?...

M: Yeah, why do you want to be better than Lady Gaga?

V: You’re right, you’re right but I’m honestly kind of freaking out about this whole situation right now.

M: Well you have to sell your soul to the illuminati first to become as good as Lady Gaga. Isn’t that a prerequisite for hitting that kind of plateau. 

V: Is she part of the illuminati?

M: I think so.

V: Like every celebrity is? Is that the theory you’re going with?

M: Yeah let’s go with that.

V: Is that it? Why would you have to do that?

M: Well have you never heard the term that you have to sell your soul to the devil to become famous?

V: Like not really?

M: Really!? You haven’t heard about breaking eggs to make an omelet?

V: (Laughing) Well what does that mean!? Like literally do you have to pay someone?

M: Yeah I assume there’s some sort of ritual and you have to go into a room and you have to sacrifice a goat or something.

V: I would do that. 

M: Yeah, see. So this is the difference…

V: Okay, let’s go back to you for a second. So you're going through life and every time you reach a plateau you're like, this isn't my thing and you're jumping to the next thing. Is that the vibe?

M: Yeah.

V: So with math, you get to grade 12, you fail it a couple times, you’re like well whatever it's not working. Your mindset wasn't ‘Maybe I need to try a different approach or I need to work harder’, you were just like, ‘Well because I'm just not good enough at this with my normal methods of being good at something, I'm just going to move on.’.

M: Yeah, I was like, okay so if I can’t become something in computers and I'm naturally good with them then I guess I'm not going to do that. Since I'm in grade twelve and I need to get grade 12 to go to college, then my life is now going to just be working in a factory.

V: Okay, we’re going to get to that in one second but i just need to say one more thing because this drives me nuts. You’ve said so many times in the conversation, “I’m naturally good at this and naturally good at, and naturally good at…”, can we just pause on that for a second.

M: Are we going to fight about what a math person is?

V: I feel like I'm not even ready for that because I’m annoyed, not annoyed at you but I can't wait to have the argument about it (Laughing). For those of you who can’t see he’s smiling really creepily. This idea of being naturally good, because you haven't just said it about math, you’ve said it about everything - you said you were naturally good at something and then you realize you can't get any further so you move on to the next thing you're naturally good at. What does it mean to be naturally good at something? And yes this ties directly into the idea of being a math person which people think means you’re naturally good at math. So what does that mean?

M: Oh that’s cool. Sorry what was the question? Moving onto the next thing…

V: Exactly. I want to know what you think it means to be naturally good at something.

M: Oh yeah that’s easy. It’s just when you approach something and you understand it, then you’re good at it naturally…

V: Without effort?

M: Yeah, without effort. Someone not teaching me how to learn means someone didn't show me the benefit of effort. 

V: Oh that’s a good one, that’s a really good one. 

M: Yeah when I was a kid as well, I probably saw some episode of Saved By The Bell where someone was playing like a piano or something and they were just rocking it and it was the first time they ever played and they were just like a virtuoso. I was like oh dude, I want to play the piano. So my parents went out and they bought me one, they were supportive. They bought me  a really expensive, nice piano and they signed me up for lessons and I sat down at it and I wasn't good at it from the beginning and I was like, oh well shit. I guess I'm not a piano person either.

V: Did you never play it again?

M: Yeah I mean I struggled through it and cried when my parents would make me practice.

V: Oh my god me too.

M: I gave up on it eventually and then this $5000 piano just sat there in our living room forever until my parents grew to resent me for making… Okay I’m exaggerating, they didn’t beat me or something and make me play. So the piano thing, I just gave up on it and was like, I'm not a piano person, I'm not a music person’, so I just kind of passed off on it. 

When you're at the end of your required school, there's nowhere else to go. There's no other things to explore that might turn into something else. I'm not going to college to have that experience with all these other kids and figure out oh, my true calling in life is to I don't know, save the whales or whatever. It's just like, well shit, I live in a small town, I'm not going to school to increase my knowledge in something because I hit my peak. I'm just a stupid kid who is going to I don't know put together parts for a car for the rest of his life.

V: You told me earlier that one of your teachers actually said that. Didn’t your teacher say that without math you can't do what you want to do, you can’t go into computers.

M: Yeah.

V: Okay so here we are, you’re like I'm just some stupid kid has reached my peak, you don't understand that effort could actually lead you to something so you're like, I’m just going to go work in a factory.

M: Right.

V: Let’s fast forward to that. So you’re in this factory, because this is where I feel like things got super spicy. How did you get from working in a factory to now being a cloud software architect? Tie that together.

M: For sure, well before I started at that job, I graduated high school and I was seeking some kind of validation by being able to do anything for the world.

V: What's the vibe? Are you kind of depressed right now? Are you bummed out?

M: No.

V: Not today but I mean at that time.

M: At that time, no I was happy to be out of high school and I was just happy that I had any kind of contributions. Sure I was just stocking shelves in a department store but I was the best at it, I was facing stuff on the shelf and making things really organized and I was good at something and it really felt awesome to be able to do something finally. 

In this small town there was like three stores all the way across the street from each other and at the department store there was a photography store across the street so I got a job there and I was doing both of those jobs at the same time. Next to the photography place there was a computer store and I was like, oh well shit maybe I should just try and so I went over there and I talked to them and hung out a bit and I got a job there. I was working all three jobs at the same time but it wasn't enough to be an adult and have these three shitty jobs so I started looking for grown-up work. That ended up being in a factory or whatever and when I went to this interview for the factory, they're like, “Why are you here?”. They looked at my resume and they saw that I worked at that computer store…

V: What did you do at the computer store?

M: I fixed computers. You know those Best Buy places? It was basically a local version of that. So I did that for a little while and then when I was in that interview they were like, “You seem like you should be doing something else” and I'm like, “I didn't pass grade 12 math so I can't do anything else. I can't go to school.”. They’re like, “You know you can go as a mature student when you're a certain age and you don't need to have grade 12 math.”.

V: Oh my god these people are so nice. What a nice interview.

M: Yeah, totally. So I got that job and it was cool and I was the best at that job. I was putting things in the machine and putting wires and stuff and I was getting really fast at it. I thrive when I know that I'm doing something and I'm really good at it.

V: We are so similar. That is actually my motivator. I need to be knowing that I’m the best at something. Every job I've had, I’ve loved. When I worked at Tim Hortons, I loved it because I was the best at it and I was making new donut designs, and I could serve coffee the fastest. This is why I’ve always liked every job I’ve had. I never understand this; you know when you walk into a store and someone's delivering very mediocre customer service, you’re just standing here twiddling your thumbs and then you ask them for help and they’re like, “Uh I don’t know. Maybe I have that, maybe I don’t”. I always think to myself, how are you getting through the day just being here and not wanting to do the best of your job today?

M: Yeah, oh totally.

V: Right? If you’re thinking about yourself at this factory job, you weren’t at the factory job thinking, ‘I'm too good for this’, you were thinking, ‘I'm here right now and I'm going to be the best at what I'm doing right now.’. That gave you this sense of worth and purpose.

M: It’s so satisfying to be good at something.

V: It’s satisfying to be good at something, yeah! Taking pride in your work gives you a sense of purpose no matter what you're doing.

M: Yeah unless it’s somewhere where you genuinely don’t want to be.

V: Sure, fine. 

M: Which is what that actually turned into because I was going so fast at this job that I eventually said, “Oh well shit I'm going to do the work for the next shift” and then I started doing too much work and they’re like, you're over producing here so we're going to move you to another place. They moved me to this place where I had to put… it was disgusting... I had to put grease inside plastic parts or something and I had to wear gloves and I hate getting dirty and my hands were dirty everyday. I just became miserable and I hated my life and it was the angriest I've ever been for 4 months. 

V: You’re very even keeled, I can’t even picture you getting angry.

M: Well I mean I wasn't swearing at people or whatever but I was going home angry everyday and I started to write this document of what makes me angry everyday. It was so unhealthy.

V: Right, you were in a dark place.

M:  I was like, I can't do this anymore and I was probably like that person at Starbucks who was just doing an okay job. I was like, I can't do this, I'm going to take a vacation and as I was walking out of that building at that factory, there was a job posting on the wall that said computer help desk support. I was like fuck it, I'm just going to put my resume in for this and so I did. I went on vacation for a week and then when I came back I had a phone call on an answering machine because back in that day, answering machines, right? Weird, what are those.

V: Right, technology, wow.

M: I went in for the interview and it was that same lady…

V: Oh my god I love this woman!!! What did she do? Oh my god.

M: She was like, “I’ve been waiting for you.”.

V: What!? I’m getting goosebumps! This is so cute. Okay, keep going.

M: So then 2 years later we got married… No.

V: Oh my god.

M: Just joking (Laughing).

V: I know for a fact you’re not married.

M: I got the job, I got an interview with the lead technical person at the department and he started asking me all these questions and it turns out that all the nonsense that I was doing at home, that I found fun, was directly transferable into a career that wasn't programming, and it was still working in IT. I got that and I don't know if it was fake it til you make it kind of mentality but once I started doing that job, he asked me to do a few specific things. When I went to go do some of those things, I didn't quite know how. He was like, “Go patch this room into the network”, or whatever and I didn't know how to do it. I was like, shit, I peaked again.

V: (Gasps)

M: It's a couple weeks in, but instead of just giving up, I was like, “Why don't you show me how you do it first?”. I mean that's an obvious thing that someone says when they're lying, but he's like, “Okay kid, sure.”. So he shows me how to do it and then I realized, oh I just have to ask someone to show me how to do something and eventually I'll get it. 

V: What in this moment prevented you from doing what you’ve always done in the past, which was just to give up? 

M: Because the job was too cool.

V: Ha! Okay, amazing.

M: I could take breaks whenever I wanted, I didn't have to get up early - it was perfect. I didn't know this life existed. I got an expense account, I don't have to pay for my lunch, are you kidding me? Up until then, all my exposure to jobs was just labour, so I couldn’t let it go. 

V: Okay so finally you are basically motivated enough to be like… Sorry I’m like dissecting everything, I’m so fascinated by this because now you’ve gone through 20+ years of your life with this mentality of the second you reach an obstacle, you think you’ve peaked and you move on. Finally you’ve gotten to this moment where you’re like, ‘I'm motivated enough to find a way to get past this idea that I’ve peaked because I need to progress.’.

M: Yeah, there’s a value in doing something so I just kept trying.

V: Let’s talk about faking it til you make it because it’s literally my favourite thing. I don’t know if you know this about me but I live my life by what I like to call the Britney Spears method which is faking it til you make it. She was Britney and she faked it til she made it. She would walk around strutting her shit being like, whatever I own this. You could say whatever you want about Britney but there was a part of that that inspired young women to want that confidence. I've always been a fan of this, I've always been a fan of this method. It really sounds like at the beginning of this career that you now have, that's what you were doing.

M: Yeah, it’s all about acting as if you belong there all the time. Patch this network cable into whatever, I’m going to act like I know how to do this. I'm going to act like I know how to figure this out. I can't imagine what Britney Spears was feeling the first time she had to walk out on stage and do some ridiculous dance because conceptually just thinking about going out on a stage and acting, that is insane.

V: Insane.

M: Yeah but if you just act as if this is normal, it always turns into something. We'll call it a lie, I didn't know how to patch the network cable in but say I lied on that but it turns into something by showing that you're willing and able to just try it because nobody knows how to do anything until someone shows you how to do it.

V: I love that so much! 


M: Teaching you how to learn, you need to ask someone to show you how to do something. Nothing comes naturally, even if it seems like it comes naturally, it was manifested through something else that you learned.

V: Well I think that’s really really important because I always say this. I think one of the biggest problems with education today is that we don’t teach kids that, we don't teach them how to be confident, we don't teach them how to be unsure and how to learn from their mistakes. We’re so obsessed with perfectionism and we’re so obsessed with getting high grades and we live in comparison culture. Comparison culture means for so many young people and adults too, that you're so fixated on what other people are doing right and you want to keep up, that you don't want to ask them how they got there. The way you would learn how to get to where you want to go or to get to wear your favourite fucking Instagram idol is, is to ask them how they got there. You want to save face by not asking them that.

M: Exactly, you’re embarrassed. Some people aren’t going to tell you how they got there, some people are going to lie. Some people are just going to be assholes about it and say it’s because I’m the best, that’s how I got there. Answering that question of how you got there, now I'm in a position sometimes where I get to tell people how I got there and I have unlimited empathy for someone who wants to know that I’ll take all the time in the world to tell them how because I know what it's like to be afraid to ask someone how you got somewhere. I know what it's like to not know something and I'm okay with that.

V: Yes, I want to be clear too. Faking it til you make it doesn't just mean acting like a cocky asshole and being like, ‘I belong here’, and not doing anything about it. It means to say it like starting by saying yes and then figuring out the rest after so you're faking it in the sense of being like no I belong here, but then you're actually doing the work. You're not just showing up and being like, “Whatever, I belong here.”. Which, millennial attitude. You might have to delete this actually, I’m being so rude to millennials but that attitude of faking it til you make it, act confident, get the job, and then do the legwork to do a good job. 

M: Always say yes and try your best. As stupid and basic as that sounds.

V: Oh yeah and it rhymes.

M: Oh cool, awesome. Do you guys have an opening in your band?

V: (Laughing) I feel like that would be a good shirt. But yeah, always say yes and try your best. I really like that. Okay so do you get imposter syndrome now? 

M: Yeah.

V: Because you did mention that you still feel kind of weird about the fact that you don't deserve... You said the words “I don't deserve to be where I am because I didn't pass grade 12 math.”.

M: Yeah, I feel like I don't deserve to be anywhere because I feel like I’ve been lucky with everything.

V: (Gasps). You know I hate that word.

M: I know, I know but you could say it’s imposter syndrome but the more people I hear speak about that, the more I realize that I think everybody has it.

V: Everyone has it. I feel like it’s silly for you to sit here and say, “I still feel weird and feel like I shouldn't be where I am because I didn't pass grade 12 math.”. I don't really get that - you've proven that you didn't need grade 12 math, that was just literally some red tape that technically you're supposed to get through to get to where you’re going.

M: Ah yeah, you would think but I still don't know what it's like to have grade 12 math.

V: Okay so let’s talk about that.

M: So what am I missing out on.

V: You are taking math with us at the Math Guru.

M: Yeah, totally.

V: So tell me why did you decide to do that? What’s going on? I don’t even know where you are in the course. What’s going on with that?

M: I decided to Billy Madison my way through high school math. Right now I’ve been doing it for about 16 months, once a week, except for when I feel like I don’t want to show up and then I give Spencer some nonsense excuse. But we just started grade 12 and we're talking about functions and stuff and quadratic equations and whatever. We’re talking about tan and graphing stuff…

V: Guys Mike got a tattoo on his arm. Can you just explain what this is? Obviously we will include this in the show notes.

M: It’s like linear equation, quadratic equation, graphing it…

V: It’s all the transformations, right?

M: Yeah, and so that’s where we’re at and that is exactly the spot in grade 12 where I was like what the fuck am I doing? Everything up to that had a practical application, now I don't understand where I'm even using this and the best I can come up with for this, and I still don't quite understand it, is that this is the true explanation of how you can describe the world, is these things. When people say math is everywhere and it’s beautiful, this is how you describe things to other people. You can't explain an equation to someone without having the knowledge to write the equation. So this describes how things behave in the world and that's the best I can do.

V: Your tattoo?

M: Yeah. Maybe in the future I’m going to realize, oh shit that's not right at all, you're stupid and ignorant and then I'm going to have this and it doesn't mean anything to me.

V: You can cover it up, there’s laser technologies.

M: But I don’t care, I like the idea that it might be a mistake as well.

V: So you’re doing this for emotional reasons basically, because you don’t need grade 12... why are you making that face?

M: Yes. I am doing it for emotional reasons. 

V: You're doing it so you can see what you were missing because you're still convinced that you’re maybe missing something.

M: Yeah because I could have chosen a different path if I had grade 12 math.

V: Okay, what’s your goal taking math with us? What’s your ultimate goal?

M: It’s to get rid of that blocker of wondering what I could’ve been.

V: Okay so you’re going to finish grade 12 math with us. You’re doing it, you’re fine, you’re understanding it, how’s it going?

M: It’s good. It’s easier when it's on my own terms and I understand it. I don’t completely understand why I'm doing specific things but it's going well. It's a struggle every week - I hate coming but when I leave I'm happy that I came. 

V: It’s like working out. That happens to me every time I go to the gym.

M: Totally. It’s a totally emotional thing.

V: Okay so when you’re done grade 12 math, what are you hoping you might realize?

M: Well I know where I go after grade 12 and it’s because of Spencer. I’m going to look into something related to physics because every week I come with a relatable math question that I want him to explain to me. Something real world practical. My favourite question that I came to him with was when I walk up the stairs, I take two steps at a time. Some people take one step at a time, some people walk up the wheelchair ramp instead. I'm silently judging everyone that doesn't walk up the stairs 2 steps at a time because I'm like, you’re lazy, come on, get into it. So I come to Spencer and I’m like this sounds like a math problem. Who is exerting more effort? He says it’s a physics problem, and he kind of explained it to me but said we can't get into the exact details of it just right now, but that's where this question goes.

V: But who is exerting more effort? I’m more out of breath if I do two steps at a time.

M: That’s what I thought too. I think the answer is it's the same amount of effort. It’s a really interesting question.

V: You’d have to do a bunch of measurements.

M: It’s all just physics, like what's your goal? Are you trying to get somewhere fast? Are you trying to get the most efficient workout? 

V: Do you think it's going to change your life? Is there a chance you’re going to finish grade 12 math and it’s going to change your life, career-wise? Are you're going to think now that you have grade 12 math, I'm going to go be a software architect or whatever the fuck?

M: I'm pretty sure the end result will be that I'll realize I was kind of right that it's not necessary.

V: Exactly, that you could’ve just done it anyway.

M: Yeah but I can't know until I do it.

V: I love it. I love this whole situation, everything about this is so fucking great. So obviously we’re going to have to catch up whenever you're done and have a revisit because everyone's going to want to know what the fuck you're doing and what you’ve realized and if you’re having an existential crisis.

M: For sure.

V: Great, can’t wait. Okay let’s ask some final questions. What would you say to someone who thinks they’re not a math person and why are you arguing with me about using the term math person or not using it? Just for everyone to know, I like to say there’s no such thing as a math person, because the whole point is that we are all math people. The category of math person is irrelevant. It’s like saying I'm a reading person. We would never say that.

M: I would say you're probably right. You're not a math person but you can be if you want to be.

V: Fine. (Laughing)

M: Because in a past episode you said and I think you said this, you were talking about Google drive or something and you said, I swear you said, “I’m so not a tech person.”.

V: I would never say that! I would never say that! I really doubt I said that… Did I say it?

M: Exactly. And I would say I'm a tech person. It’s just that idea of a person is just something you're naturally inclined and interested in. You can become any one of those people, you can't be the best at everything but you can become one of those people. If you’re not a math person, it’s okay, but if you want to be, you can be.

V: Okay fine, fair but now I feel the need to defend myself. If I said that, whatever, fuck you. Everyone’s nodding at me like I did say I’m not a tech person. I do not think that but what I will say is this, this is truly what I believe: I have not put in any effort to learn about technology and if I chose to, I fully could learn how to use fucking Google drive. 

M: Of course you could. You could become a tech person.

V: Of course I could! Yes exactly, I don’t think I’m not a tech person and it’s really poor language and I’m very disappointed in myself and I’m very sorry.

M: (Laughing) I’ve been waiting for this day forever.

V: Fuck! That’s the real reason you’re here. Okay final question, what is one thing you would change about the way math is taught in school?

M: Put your fucking money where your mouth is, teacher.

V: Oh you’re going for the teachers.

M: I don't blame the teachers, I don't blame them at all, but I hate that they're annoyed that they have to explain where the students are going to use it. I’m so sorry that that's annoying to you but you have to tell people where they're going to use something. The true idea of torture is doing something with no purpose, like picking up a pile of rocks at one end of the room and moving them to the other room and then to be told to pick them up and move them back to the other room, and all you're going to be thinking is why am I doing this? So fucking tell me why. If I need it for math, if I need it for computer science, give me a practical explanation or an example of where I will actually use this in that career. That's all I want, don't torture me. Still, I don’t know why I need grade 12 math for anything in computer science.

V: You’re out to discover for yourself, you’re going to empirically figure it out. 

M: Sorry that’s a lie. I know some things where I would use it but those careers are so specialized that I don't think people are just casually rolling into them.

V: This has been a-fucking-mazing. I feel like I’ve learned so much, I feel like I have a lot to think about. I don’t know how much I really agree with and I guess that’s a good place to be. Okay well Mike, fuck, go live your best life, can’t wait to hear more about it. Bye! Thanks!

M: Bye!

V: Wow. Mike seriously gives a whole new meaning to what it means to peak too early and I'm kind of here for it. I feel like our whole convo about only doing something if you can be the best or second best, I don't know, it's really given me a lot to think about. I know I said it in the episode but I don't know if I actually believe that anymore. Also truth be told, I'm on this whole abundance kick with Deepak Chopra and Gabby Bernstein and if there's one take away it’s that there is enough of everything, including success, to go around. Just because one person is great at something, that doesn't take away from your chance to be great at that something at that something too. It’s not a competition at all. That really changes my approach to things and I hope it changes yours too. The truth is when we're not focused on competing with one another, we can use our resources to collaborate with, and support each other which is way more fun but also way more fruitful. So there you have it.

Anyways, getting off my soapbox now to remind you that as always, you can find links to everything we talked about, including my whole abundance thing, on our show notes. Those are at www.themathguru.ca/maththerapy . Remember to follow us on all social media @themathguru, and of course a reminder that Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by the lovely Sabina Wex, and edited by the weird and wonderful David Kochberg. Our theme song is Waves by my very own band, Goodnight, Sunrise. Guys if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone getting it, please share this podcast and think about writing a review on whatever podcast app you use. Those two things make a huge huge difference. Here’s to changing the world one math hater at a time. See you all next Thursday!