Esther Brunat  0:01  (intro quote)
I'm not afraid to fail. I can try something and I can mess it up, and I will tell my students that too - I'll be like guys, hey, I messed up - we should be modeling that! A lot of adults take that fear of failure into their adulthood with them.

Esther Brunat  0:17  (intro quote)
I just had a kid, he's like, "Hey Ms. Brunat" - he just took a quiz - he's like, "I did better than I thought I would - I still don't completely get it, but I feel like with a teacher like you, I'll definitely get it." And I was like ahhhhhhh!!! (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  0:31  (show intro)
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru. And you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.

Vanessa Vakharia  0:56  (episode intro)
Okay, guys, I am dying laughing already just thinking about the fact that I'm about to introduce our first ever wait for it - Mathfluencer. No, guys, I'm serious: if there is one thing that 2020 has taught me, it was that mathfluencers are a real thing. And they are our last bastion of hope in the midst of this serious PR crisis that math is having. Today I talk to the amazing Esther Brunat: a math teacher, Gen Z specialist, and IRL mathfluencer who's on a mission to not only make math cool, but to help other teachers make math cool. This interview made me laugh, cry, and like, basically just want to BE Esther when I grow up.

Vanessa Vakharia  1:34  
Esther, welcome to the podcast!

Esther Brunat  1:37  
Thank you for having me!

Vanessa Vakharia  1:41  
Ok guys, I have to tell you how I know Esther because I actually I think this might be the first time we've actually spoken. But as the pandemic would have it, I found her through Instagram through a community of like - and I'm not kidding, because this is a thing - like, "math influencers". It was through our joint love for a company called Texas Instruments. And I actually did see you on their Instagram and I think you followed me and I followed you back cuz I was like, wait, who is this chick with fucking like 30,000 followers in the math world? And then I started realizing that this was like, a community. So tell let's take a step back and tell me - what does it mean to be a "mathfluencer"? Or like what do you do?

Esther Brunat  2:24  
That's a good question! (laughing) Well, I'm a classroom teacher like we've mentioned, so I share a lot about what goes on in my classroom as a math teacher, and as a teacher who has good relationships with her students. So I started to kind of garner a following based on that, and mostly based on the silly stories I would tell about my students in the classroom. And people relate to that, you know, people want to know what's going on in my classroom, they want to know what I'm doing, so that is kind of like where the community kind of comes from - other people who are doing similar things or who want ideas, and just really being consistent with putting out the content always for people, too and then finding other people who are doing it the same and wanting to grow together with them. So that's where like Rory / @iteachalgebra comes in, I teach algebra and @misscraftymathteacher Kathleen and stuff. Like, we all kind of found each other on the internet. And then we were all just like, well, let's just do this together, and so we grew together.

Vanessa Vakharia  3:35  
Okay, this is so cool. Because low key, like not that I want to be THAT girl, but I just like really want to be a part of the crew. Like I'm always looking at the stuff you're doing - and like wait, don't you guys have a name?

Esther Brunat  3:47  
The Squadratics (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  3:49  
Oh my God, the Squadratics!!!!

Esther Brunat  3:50  
... because we're a squad ... and "quadratic" .... 

Vanessa Vakharia  3:54  
Yes (laughing) It's so like, Mean Girls, but in like, the coolest way, like they should make a fucking movie - oh my god, they should make a movie about that!! Imagine if like "the plastics" were "the squadratics" instead?!

Esther Brunat  4:07  
Who do we pitch this to? (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  4:09  
So tell me how you met these other math influencers.

Esther Brunat  4:13  
So I firmly believe anybody can find their people on the internet. Like, everybody has people on the internet, everybody can find their people on the internet, find your niche. So being math teachers, it was like - that was the content that I was passionate about. So that's what I was putting out there into the world. So you know, people use similar hashtags and stuff like that when you're making your posts, so that's kind of how like, me and the squad found each other.

Vanessa Vakharia  4:39  
Okay, but so being a math influencer, legit, companies are trying to pay you to do stuff and invite you to events like that's a thing right? I don't think people understand that! That's a thing. It's also - I'm so glad that companies are doing that because I feel like education is always the last one to jump on a trend. You know what I mean? Like they're the last one to be like, oh, this is what everyone's doing, I should hire an influencer. Right?

Esther Brunat  5:02  
Exactly. And so some companies got on there, and were hip to game, you know, and I think it's the best thing ever, because you can definitely see how it does influence the culture of something, you know, like you see people wanting to come to the event, or you see people wanting to use the product, or you see people - and it's the best, because if the product is actually great, right, if the event is actually beneficial, you know, then it garners the attention that it deserves, you know, and then you have the ability to change classrooms.

Vanessa Vakharia  5:42  
Right? Well, yeah, exactly, which is the whole point. So it's good for you AND for the company. Tell me about the Texas Instruments event because I actually always feel, as we know, by their fucking Christmas sweater, I've always thought they were the coolest - like they were the first company who even back in the day, like a decade ago, even more, I remember they were making those - remember, for your phone, your flip phone, you could change the cover on top of the keys, like it was a faceplate? And Texas Instruments had faceplates. And I was like, this is so fucking cool. They have pink calculators. They were the first company and now you're saying they were the first people that hired you and the squad - tell me what the event was like, like, were you celebrities?  Is that a thing??

Esther Brunat  6:25  
(laughing) I would never say that, because that sounds arrogant.

Vanessa Vakharia  6:30  
Well I'm saying it, it's fine!

Esther Brunat  6:32  
(laughing) It felt like it. And we had - first of all, we had a blast, because the four of us got to meet for the first time. So it's like, oh my gosh, like, I'm getting to go hang out with my friends! So that's like, the first thing that was like, super awesome. And then the second thing was that we're at this event that's like - it was worth it, you know? We weren't at an event that was like, "Ah, you know, it's fine", but no, we were having a blast because the content was great. And you know, learning all this new stuff. And then we're also getting to be together. And so we were posting and we were like, you know talking about the different sessions that we were on and there was a "social lounge" that was like based off social media - different challenges and stuff like that and they were giving out merch and doing contests where you could win different stuff, and so we did a meet and greet we did like an Instagram Live at one point you know, like while we were there.

Vanessa Vakharia  7:39  
A meet and greet? Like where people were there to meet you?!

Esther Brunat  7:42  
It was kind of crazy.

Vanessa Vakharia  7:47  
Oh my god, that's so - you are a math celebrity. Okay, this is like my goal in life to be honest, like, I want to be a math celebrity. So like, you guys are literally squad goals. Like actually,

Esther Brunat  7:57  
Listen, that's why next time any of this stuff happens, I need you to be wherever we are!

Vanessa Vakharia  8:04  
Oh my god. I feel like I'm like the girl at school that got asked to hang out with the cool kids. And the cool kids are the squadratics! This is a movie waiting to fucking happen. Okay, Netflix, if you're listening. This is a freebie for you. Please cast us. Thank you. Okay, that is so fucking cool.

Esther Brunat  8:23  
But I'm not kidding when I say like, we thought you were cooler than we are.

Vanessa Vakharia  8:28  
No you didn't!

Esther Brunat  8:30  
You have a book!! 

Vanessa Vakharia  8:33  
Yeah, but you have 30,000 followers. What's cooler in 2020, a fucking book? No one reads. (laughing) Let's be honest.

Esther Brunat  8:42  
(laughing) I'm crying!!

Vanessa Vakharia  8:43  
I need to get my numbers up! I love that there's this whole world that I have dreamt of. It's like Candyland or something, but for math!

Vanessa Vakharia  8:53  
Okay, let's back up though. Because part of this whole thing, and I know we're kind of joking like Mean Girls, whatever, but not really - you call yourself a Gen Z specialist. And what I love so much about you is - so I feel like you're honestly downplaying a bit the stuff you post and I want to say for those of you listening, first of all, she has a fucking lit TikTok account, like all of her stuff is really fun math videos that kids can relate to - not just how to solve stuff, but like funny things her students say or like different ways of looking at polynomials and stuff that's like really relatable and really funny. So like, part of this - I don't know how much you know about me, but my master's degree was in actually math education and marketing, media literacy, and gender studies. It was all about how we are doing a disservice by not taking into account our target demographics needs when we teach math. We're just like, whatever, kids got to go to school, so I guess we'll just shove it in their face. Instead of being like - yeah, like, if you were selling a product, you'd have to be like, "Huh, what does my audience want", and that's what you do. So tell me more about that. What does it mean to be a Gen Z specialist? And how are you using that in your work?

Esther Brunat  10:08  
Okay, so that basically comes from - I feel like as a teacher, I kind of have to go into their world. So just like you just said, about how we just give it to them. The way that we got it, a lot of times, is what teachers do - you know, this is the way I learned so this is the way that you have to learn, or this is the way that it has to be, suck it up, you know. But I just find that going into their space a little bit is always way better. Because first of all, I'm nosy. So if somebody says something, you know, I'm like, "explain that to me, I need to understand what you're talking about". You know, so I'm always like, picking up on stuff that they're saying. So that's the first thing, and then I just know that using something that they relate to gets me way more buy-in than if I just stay in my lane. Like if I want to be a fuddy duddy adult, I could do that.

Vanessa Vakharia  11:18  
I don't think you could. (laughing)

Esther Brunat  11:21  
Yeah, you know, honestly, probably not. (laughing) But so, I try my best to like, not be cheesy about it, either. So I go into their world, like I find out what's hip right now. I find out what games they're playing, I find out what lingo they're talking about, I find out what trends, like even if it's like clothing trends, if I start to notice something, and I honestly think like, we talked about how everybody has a math brain - it's not just some people who have a math brain or whatever. It's just like tapping into what part of math you kind of relate to, and I very much relate to patterns, you know, picking up on something. And I think patterns are trends. If I keep seeing kids walk into my classroom with Crocs on, like, something's happening here. Where is this coming from? You know, and it's in different pockets of the nation the Crocs thing, but like, our kids are BIG on the stinking Crocs. 

Vanessa Vakharia  12:36  
Ew, what?!

Esther Brunat  12:36  
(laughing) Absolutely. Last year, the beginning of last school year, I would literally video every time a kid walked into my classroom with Crocs, there would be like three kids in every class period. And then they like, deck them out in - they have these little things called Jibbitz that they put on them. I'm not kidding. So they'll have like "Class of 2020" on their crops, or they'll have like, superheroes and anime characters on there.

Vanessa Vakharia  13:07  
I have 2000 things to say right now. But the first thing is - my thesis question, I'm not kidding you, my opening thesis question was, "what if we treated math like a pair of Uggs?" Just take that in! What a crazy coincidence this is. Yes! And the reason is, for us, it's Uggs that are the Crocs. Everyone has a fucking pair of Uggs. And I always said - we're so similar in this part - because I was always like, there is a trend going on. The trend doesn't come from nowhere, it starts, and actually, I did so much research on how things become cool. And I was like, why can't we apply the same principles to math? Like if an ugly ass fucking shoe can pick up, so can being good at math. Like I really thought the two were so similar.

Esther Brunat  13:51  
Absolutely.  You're speaking my love language!

Vanessa Vakharia  13:56  
This is so crazy. And it's so crazy that it's both surrounding shoes, like the ugliest shoes, like two of the most arguably ugly shoes! Anyway. Okay, so backing up, though, I love what you said about how trends are patterns. And I think that's so cool. Because often when we're talking about making math relatable to kids, we think that if it's about something that they know in the physical world, it relates to them. And that's not true. So being like three apples plus two apples, oh, there, it relates to kids, because they know what apples are - okay, they might know what they are, but they don't give a fucking shit about how any apples they have. So there's two things here. Number one, many teachers will say to me, "I love this, I love what you're talking about. But I don't know how to do it. Like, how could I possibly?" How would you tell the teacher? How can they tune in, how can they pick up on this stuff? And how can they use it in their approach to math?

Esther Brunat  14:51  
I think it's about - you got to kind of step outside of yourself and care about the conversations that are happening in your classroom. I feel like, if I kept in my own little bubble, I would not be tuned or hip to whatever is happening. So it's a little bit about that. And there's a relationship happening between my class of students and me, right? And to garnish and make that relationship flourish, I kind of have to be an expert in them, you know, like any relationship, whether it's a friendship, like, I have to care about what my friend is into! You know, parents have to care about what their children are into, that's how relationships kind of grow and flourish. And so I make it my business to make that happen. And so, I feel like a lot of times teachers will approach their classroom as if "I'm the king, I'm the queen", which has its place. But it's also like, you would be doing half the work, if you met them halfway. I do much less fighting in my classroom, because my students and I relate, you know, so that's, like, a major key for me.

Esther Brunat  16:22  
And then once I've taken in my information - like, I feel like I'm doing research, right? You know, okay, like, "Alright, what are they kids into?", you know, it's always swirling around in my brain. And I wouldn't necessarily say that I sit down and I'm like writing a lesson and I'm like, "how do I put this in a lesson?" It's not like that. It's more like, this stuff is in my brain, it's swirling around. I have a lesson that I'm about to teach. Oh, wait, I could put "this" here with "this", you know? So I always tell people about like, when I teach statistics and probability, we're doing two way frequency tables. And the stupid book examples are always like, what's your favorite fruit? Versus like, you know, if you're a boy or a girl, like, you know, just nonsense like that.

Vanessa Vakharia  17:26  
Ew!

Esther Brunat  17:26  
You know?! And so I'm like - no, let's talk about whether or not you like Cardi B or the City Girls, versus if you bite your string cheese or pull your string cheese.

Vanessa Vakharia  17:44  
Oh, my God, I want to know what the results of that are actually!

Esther Brunat  17:47  
I have them, somewhere. (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  17:51  
That's the funny thing like, that is what it's about. When I was actually a math teacher, or even in my tutoring practice, us and the tutors do this all the time. But I remember when I was a math teacher, the reason kids liked me so much is, it was as simple as changing the names in a word problem to reflect pop culture icons, or whatever. Like, it's almost like we need professional development on this, this would be a really cool idea. Like we'll talk more about the professional development you do, but like, imagine you did a professional development session on like, here's what the kids are into this month. You should fucking do that! For math teachers! And like "10 things that kids are into and 10 ways to throw that into a math lesson", every month you do it because the trends change and teachers go away being like - ok anyways, yeah, this is a freebie idea for you. I feel like you and the squad that I'm not a part of yet the squadratics can put together. (both laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  18:39  
And what have students said to you? They must think you're the fucking coolest person! What kind of reactions do you get?

Esther Brunat  18:45  
I mean, to be completely honest, I do get a lot of like, "you're the best math teacher I've ever had", and like, "I love you" and like, I do get that a lot. It's true, I'm not even like tooting my own horn - at least once every two weeks there's like - like, I just had a kid who just - I just screenshotted too, I was gonna post it - he's like "Hey Ms. Brunat" - like they just took a quiz, he's like "I did better than I thought I would - I still don't completely get it, but I feel like with a teacher like you I'll definitely get it". And I was like ahhhhhh!!! (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  19:23  
Oh my god, it is crazy. It's crazy. Because you know what, honestly, the point of this podcast Math Therapy is because people who don't understand math or who feel like they just aren't "math people" - it does something to you, like throughout your life, because math is always the subject that's associated with intelligence. I think that's total bullshit, but the point is, the feeling that you can't do math, which is normally learned at a young age - you carry that feeling of failure with you. So the fact that you're making kids feel this way is so crazy. And I really do want to ask, do you see a difference in the way that black kids feel about themselves as mathematicians, have you come across that at all? Like, is that something where you've noticed a divide?

Esther Brunat  20:07  
Absolutely, there's definitely a divide. If you look at the demographics of my school where we are 30% white, 30% black, 30% hispanic, and then like, mixed after that, we're like the - I love it, I think it's the perfect diverse ecosystem. But when you look at the breakdown of a remedial math class, and you're looking at it and it's all black kids and like a sprinkle of hispanic kids, you have to kind of wonder -

Vanessa Vakharia  20:39  
Really.

Esther Brunat  20:39  
Yeah, absolutely. And you have to kind of wonder, like, what is that? Like, it's not because black kids and hispanic kids are dumber. It's because we're not pallating the material for them in the right way. So I had started off at like the remedial algebra one class, you know, and it's so funny those kids like, a lot of them didn't even know their times tables, okay. And I was teaching them algebra one, so imagine trying to teach a kid factoring and they don't really know their times table. So I was like - I forgot about this, but you want to know what made me realize it?  One of my students from back then found me on Instagram, and she was going through reels or something like that. And she was like, "Oh, my gosh, you're Miss Brunat. You used to quiz us on our times tables, when we would come into class!" And to this day, she's like, "I know them like the back of my hand because you did that to us."

Vanessa Vakharia  21:43  
I have goosebumps under this sweater, under this Christmas sweater with a calculator on it, oh, my God.

Esther Brunat  21:52  
This is literally like two or three weeks ago, and I forgot about that. Being a teacher, you're just uniquely positioned to have an insane amount of impact on lives. I saw this meme the other day, that was like, nobody talks about remembering their accountant. But everybody talks about that one teacher. (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  22:19  
What a beautiful power that is, right? So okay, I want to actually talk about technology. So much of what you do is based in technology, right? Like you make all these really cool videos, you make all these really cool tech talks. And this is so interesting that now during COVID, everyone has had to translate their teaching to technology. And one of the biggest problems we're seeing is, teachers do not know how, and they are missing the mark so hard. But then you have teachers like you and these mathfluencers, who are already familiar with the medium - you know, for the teacher out there who's like, I just don't know how to do it, and for those of you listening, Esther and her friends put on this amazing conference called Beyond the Mean, where they taught teachers tips, like how to use video in the classroom, how to use zoom the best way. Why do you think we're not making more use of people like you? Like, why the fuck didn't every school board just hire you to train their teachers? Like, why?

Esther Brunat  23:11  
School boards are - I mean, they're not hiring me yet (laughing)  But school boards are trying to get their teachers - this is the thing, just like people are afraid to fail in math so that's why they don't try, a lot of adults take that fear of failure into their adulthood with them. So they look at something new and they're like, if this is going to require some kind of failure out of me, I'm not even going to try this because what I'm doing is working already, you know, so like, why do I need to even go into this new space, learn this new skill, it's gonna be hard. And I look dumb doing it at first, you know, that plagues us more than we would like to admit as adults, I feel like. And so for me, if somebody presents something to me, pretty straightforward, I'm like, I should at least give that some kind of try. 

Esther Brunat  24:05  
And so, I went into all of our tech stuff when we got our online learning management system, I went into it really quickly. I was like, let me just mess with this, and see if I like it. I'll at least mess with something, you know. And there was just a lot of teachers in our district who are not at least messing with it, you know, because we had our online platform, probably two years before COVID hit. But people just never explored with it, you know, so then when COVID hit, it was like, oh, shoot, here's all these trainings, even though these trainings were available to them from like a year and a half before. And so that's made the COVID transition really smooth for me. So I feel like that's why I got a chance to then also explore other things because I couldn't imagine learning Canvas during COVID, and then also trying to figure out videos, and then also trying to figure out my activities for my students, you know, I had already known how to do that. And so somebody asked me that question one time, how do I have the confidence to try all these new things and do all these new things. And it's honestly, I'm not afraid to fail. Like, I can try something and I can mess it up. And it is what it is. And I will tell my students that too, I'll be like, "guys, hey, I messed up" - we should be modeling that, we should stop perpetuating the narrative that we need to get things right on the first try that, you know, I can't fail in front of people, I can't make mistakes in front of people. Like, what?

Vanessa Vakharia  25:50  
I know, it's so crazy. And like, I don't know if you know this, but I failed grade 11 math twice. So I have a very similar sort of story to you in that - that's the thing, we have this opportunity in math class to actually teach our students that it's okay to fail. And I actually think we have that opportunity in math class more than anything else. Because in math class the narrative is there's a right and a wrong answer, right? And that being wrong makes you dumb. So you have this great opportunity to be like, "actually, you've been taught this all wrong. Guess what, like, let's practice failing and see that it doesn't actually fucking matter and you still wake up the next morning with a smile on your face". So like, I love that you're doing that, and I love that you often post your mistakes on Instagram. So I actually think this idea of - yeah, changing culture around math to make it clear that the math is never about being right or wrong. To me, math is about thinking creatively, like, how many different ways can you come up with to approach this problem. So I love that you do that.

Esther Brunat  26:49  
As a side note, I just found this TikTok account where this kid guesses people's heights based on something that they're holding in their hand. So like, they'll have like a medium Dunkin Donuts cup in their hand. And they'll be like, "Who's that kid who guesses people's height? I bet he can't guess my height". And so the kid, he does it. He looks up, he shows you that he looks up and he does like, the hypotenuse and this and that and he does proportions. And then he's like, I'm gonna get - 

Vanessa Vakharia  27:20  
Shut up!

Esther Brunat  27:20  
I'm not kidding! And then so one video, somebody was dragging him, and he was like, "Guys, I don't do this so that I'm right. I do this because I want to model creative thinking and problem solving."  I don't know who this kid is, but I love him!

Vanessa Vakharia  27:38  
Yes, yes, yes! Okay, you have to send me this account. I just think this is so cool because I think, before we get to our final two questions, there's a whole world out there. Like, I think we're so used to seeing math in this academic way. I remember I gave this presentation at The Fields Institute, which is this really prestigious institution at U of T. And I remember it was me talking about math anxiety, to a sea of fucking 100 white dudes. And all of them were eye rolling. They were like, "Math anxiety, that's not (ha ha)" - it was disgusting. And I thought, these are the people who go into their classroom and say, "you know what, I don't need to get down with my students, because I'm the king of the classroom. And I know what's right". And what a horrible reputation for math to have! And I'm so glad people like you are out there saying fuck that, no - that is not what math is. And I'm really grateful. Because I think math has just gotten such a bad rap for so long that it's time to be like, fuck this.

Esther Brunat  28:39  
Absolutely.

Vanessa Vakharia  28:39  
So thank you. Seriously, thank you for your work for being you, I'm so excited for everyone to follow you. And it's time for our final two questions! My first question is, what would you say to someone who's like, I'm just not a math person?

Esther Brunat  28:53  
I would say you're fooling yourself. Like, that's not true. We're all math people. It's like, what part of it do you relate with the most, right? Like, some kids are, like intuitive thinking is their thing, you know, and they want to do all their math in their head. There are some kids who relate to process - I was a process kid and a patterns kid, like, "Oh, I see, this is how this ... okay, let me do that", you know. So I think it's more like, what part of your brain connects to which process the most and, and not to think of it as "not being a math person" versus "being a math person", because that's what puts up the block in the first place, and then makes you not want to even try.

Vanessa Vakharia  29:39  
I love it.  I actually want to ask one other question that I normally wouldn't ask before I got to my last question, because I want to know what you would say to a teacher who's like, "but Esther, you're so cool, and I'm just not as cool as you, I don't even know how I could ever get hip with the kids". What would you say that?

Esther Brunat  29:59  
I would say start taking a genuine interest in them. I think that's the first step. Because I wouldn't even say that a teacher needs to like start speaking like the kids, or doing the things - I wouldn't say that that is -

Vanessa Vakharia  30:16  
Don't wear Crocs to class, you do not need to wear Crocs. (laughing)

Esther Brunat  30:19  
(laughing) It is just taking an interest and going into their space, that really is what it is. Because they're going to realize that oh, this person is interested in me. That is the first step, is taking the interest, and it'll flow from there. It does not need to be something that you're putting on face for, don't do that.

Vanessa Vakharia  30:43  
Ah, that is such good advice. That is honestly such good advice. Okay, the final question is, what would you ... so normally, I ask my guests, what would you change about the way math is taught in class, and you're an actual teacher - but I want to ask you, as a real life math teacher, what would you change about the way we present math to black kids in class? Like you had said earlier, we don't make it palatable for them - how would you change that?

Esther Brunat  31:10  
Part of it is a stigma of like, "these kids are not as smart". Like, nobody's literally saying that, but we are accepting it in so many different ways. And so I think that's part of what it is, like I need to look at every kid as an equal opportunity and not like, "they're not on that right path, or they're not as smart", because different people have different resources that are available to them that give them different opportunities. So it's like, how can I create space for these kids to be able to manifest their full potential, you know, like, what, am I missing maybe, a part of this equation. So I think it's more of like that kind of stuff, instead of passing a blanket judgment, let me say, "Okay, let me step back here and see if there's something I'm missing". I think maybe that's a good start.

Vanessa Vakharia  32:20  
I think you just put it in such a good way. Because I want to tell you this, we didn't talk about this, but it's so relevant. So me and this woman, Michole who I'd interviewed on the podcast last season, she is doing her PhD at Michigan State and her research is on the experience of black kids in math. So we wrote this article about the ways that math class often kind of mimics police brutality for black kids. It was really interesting, it was about this exact thing about how often teachers will go into the class with this bias that, like "this black kid is not going to get it" that they're - and it was very much about rule following and how the second a block kid doesn't follow a rule, we make all these assumptions about them. Whereas often when white kids don't follow rules, we're like, "Can you just be quiet?" Anyways, we posted this, and this guy commented, and he kept saying things like, "Well, could it have anything to do with the fact that they don't follow rules?" "Or their culture?" Exactly, exactly, that's face you're making (Esther laughing) - exactly, what it speaks to your point that often you're right, maybe it's not said out loud, and it's not verbalized, but this guy has been a classroom teacher for 20 years and this fucking guy is going into his class every day thinking the second he sees a black kid, "You know what, this guy's probably not gonna follow rules, right?" So like, what other judgments is he making about their math ability?

Esther Brunat  33:46  
Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia  33:45  
Exactly and the thing is, kids aren't stupid. They can tell if you believe in them or not. So the second they feel - nevermind race or gender or whatever - the second a kid feels like the adult in the room does not believe in me, that reduces their self confidence.

Esther Brunat  34:00  
That's it for a lot of kids, for a lot of kids immediately - there's a quote, and I forget who said this quote, but it's like "kids don't learn from teachers they don't like" and it's like some teachers are hell bent on being this dictator, authoritarian, "you don't need to like me, for me to be your teacher" nonsense, and it's like, what are you gaining from that?

Vanessa Vakharia  34:30  
Okay, well wow, I think you just said that so perfectly. And I think that's really, really good advice for every teacher, regardless of who your students are - to check your biases at the door and to walk in there really believing that every student has the capacity to learn math in some way. And Esther I really, before we sign off, I want to say thank you, you've been such a refreshing person to talk to. I know that for you it's so fun and like I often just laugh looking at your account, but just talking to you today really makes me feel so grateful that there are educators out there doing work like this because you are really changing students lives, and you're changing students lives who often go neglected and overlooked. So I think it's really cool. And I'm so excited to see what you do. I love that you're doing more work in training other teachers because like, you should be like, this should be a course at Teachers College, it should really be a course - like, how to fucking get interested in what your students are interested in so you can bring that energy into math class.

Esther Brunat  35:26  
I would love that!

Vanessa Vakharia  35:27  
I would love it - wow, you're amazing, thank you so much for being on the podcast. And I cannot wait to get my matching Texas Instruments sweater in the mail!

Esther Brunat  35:34  
Yes! (laughing) You're so welcome, this was an absolute blast.

Vanessa Vakharia  35:39  
This was so fun! Seriously, thank you so much.

Esther Brunat  35:42  
Yes, no problem.

Vanessa Vakharia  35:43  
Bye! See you on the gram! (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  35:47  
See you on the gram?!? What?!!! (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  35:53  (outro)
Like, hello, how fucking cool is Esther? I mean, I love everything about this, but the part that really stood out to me was this idea that teachers are uniquely positioned to have an impact on kids lives. I mean, if you're a teacher listening to this right now, if you take nothing else away from this, please understand that - and now that you do, what are you going to do with this immense power you've been blessed with? Almost as importantly I want everyone to know that Texas Instruments finally sent me a calculator Christmas sweater, thanks to this interview. See, sometimes all you need is an influencer to make a case for you, or sorry, a mathfluencer.

Vanessa Vakharia  36:27  
To learn more about Esther's amazing ways hit her up on the gram @estherbrunat. If something in this episode inspired you please tweet us at @maththerapy. And you can also follow me personally at @themathguru on Instagram or Twitter. Math Therapy is hosted by me Vanessa Vakharia, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme song is WVV by Goodnight, Sunrise, which is actually my band. If you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please share this podcast and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use - those things actually makes such a big difference. I am determined to change the culture surrounding math and to give it like a massive makeover and I truly need your help, so spread the word. That's all for this week - stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.

Vanessa Vakharia  37:22  (outtake)
So anyway, so 2022 we'll all meet at the Texas Instruments conference. I'm going to show up and I'm going to be like I really hope my swag is a fucking floatie, a throw blanket, and a sweater or I will NOT present.

Esther Brunat  37:34  
(laughing)