Bex  0:02  (intro quote)
My paper said, like "C / D ?", and then they just put a "C" and they just, like never spoke about it again. They were like "this girl's not passing this again"!

Bex  0:09  (intro quote)
So like, if you tell a fish to climb a tree, it will think it's a failure. But it does really well if it's like, swimming around its bowl - we're all good at different things and that's okay. You don't have to be good at everything.

Vanessa Vakharia  0:23  (show intro)
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru. And you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.

Vanessa Vakharia  0:48  (episode intro)
Guys, holy shit. Do I have a crazy episode for you today! Okay, so get this. At the height of the pandemic, I was on social media a lot. So one day, there I am scrolling Instagram, and I see that Bustle, an account targeted to women with legit 3.4 million followers, has posted something: "I think the best part of being an adult is just opting out of math." That's what it said! I was pissed. I mean, how dare an account targeted to women straight up tell their audience that it's totally cool of them to opt out of math? Like hello, sure, let's play right into the hands of the patriarchy, man - I mean, let's just tell the world that "no worries, women aren't into math. So feel free to rope us into your MLMs, trick us with faulty stats, steal all our money", like UGH.  Anyways, it turns out that a girl named Bex had actually tweeted that original statement and Bustle had reposted it. So obviously, I tracked Bex down - all the way across the pond in London, UK! But like, on Zoom, obviously. Guys, you're going to pee your pants laughing, she is so funny - so hike up your diapers, and let's get into it.

Vanessa Vakharia  1:55  
Bex, welcome to the podcast!

Bex  1:58  
Thank you very much. It is so good to be here!

Vanessa Vakharia  2:00  
So. What prompted you to write that tweet in the first place?

Bex  2:04  
Okay, so literally, when I said "Vanessa, it's not that deep", it really wasn't! I had seen this tweet that was like, I don't know what you guys call it, I think you call it like PEMDAS or it's BODMAS or whatever?

Vanessa Vakharia  2:18  
BEDMAS, PEDMAS.

Bex  2:17  
Yeah - me and my Canadian housemate fight about which one it is all the time. And so it was like, "which one of my followers can work out this like equation quick enough?" And I was like - I looked at it, and I didn't know what was going on, and I just thought, "huh - I don't have to! There's like, there's no reason I have to do this". And I was like, God, that is such a great feeling, I can just opt out. I can just be like, "no thank you" to that to that equation. And so I literally just fired off this tweet - I don't think about these things - like, I think about, I'm trying never to be offensive or say anything that I wouldn't, you know, say aloud or anything like that. But generally speaking, a tweet about math, I was like, whatever. And people started kicking off (laughing). The best bit was someone said to me, they were like, "you're disrespecting math and science". And I was like, "sir, I literally said, 'I can opt out'. That's all I said!" I didn't say it was crap, I didn't say anything about math, I literally said, "I can just opt out of THIS EQUATION". You know, there's very little context on Twitter, I think.

Bex  2:18  
Oh my god, I have so many things to say, I'm like already crying laughing and my eyeliner that I put on just for you is running.

Bex  3:45  
Thank you!

Vanessa Vakharia  3:45  
Okay. So the first thing, I want to say this, I want to make sure this is so clear: I actually, from the very beginning had no issue with the fact that you tweeted it. I was like, Oh my god, I want to reach out to this girl and see what prompted her to tweet it, because you know now that the work I do is, immediately I'm like, "Oh my God, I hate when women feel shitty about math or feel like they have to opt out". I wasn't that - I was pissed off at Bustle who should KNOW better, who has millions of female followers, and I was like, "What the fuck? Why would you think it was appropriate to post this with no context?"

Bex  4:16  
Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia  4:16  
Just so you know, we are still waiting for Bustle to respond - I'm sure they will after this. Okay. So let's back up. So you post it, everyone loses it. So first of all, tell me some of the reactions you were getting, like, tell me what was going on. Because it had 17,300 likes, which is crazy. So tell me what was going on.

Bex  4:39  
So one man in particular really took issue. Like I said, people started arguing in the comments, and I just didn't care enough, I was not interested. And, I was like, "yeah, you guys just argue among yourselves, I'm done - I just didn't want to do an equation". And and then he starts kind of having this argument, and then I just blocked him. I was like, I can't be bothered actually. So then he made a new Twitter.

Vanessa Vakharia  5:07  
Stop it!

Bex  5:08  
Yeah, like a complete new Twitter named after a famous mathematician.

Bex  5:13  
Oh my god which one?

Bex  5:14  
No, yeah, come on. (laughing) I think it began with a "G" and I think he created multiples. (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  5:21  
They're probably all male mathematicians! I bet you he didn't name one fucking woman.

Bex  5:25  
Oh, no, of course. And so then he tweets me again and says, "original poster blocks anyone who disagrees with her". And I was like, "No I don't, I just blocked YOU because you're like, this is too much, you're just arguing with all these people!" And so I blocked him again - and he made ANOTHER Twitter being like, "you are the lowest of the low". And I was like, dude I'm gonna keep blocking you! (laughing) It was just never ending. So it was pretty funny. But a lot of people also, were like, "I'd love to opt out of math, but I'm doing this in university or I'm going off to do this". And I was like, Oh, this is nice, people are not so sure but they're continuing it anyway. But yeah, like people just went mental and I was just like - it was nothing!

Vanessa Vakharia  6:22  
Well, and the thing is, the way you actually just explained it now, you're right, that is actually really empowering as an adult to say, if we're gonna really put it on broader terms, to say "this doesn't make me happy, this doesn't bring me joy".

Bex  6:35  
Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia  6:36  
Yeah. Now, though, I do want to talk about the deeper problem. You know, you're talking about this guy who's been really, really aggressive in his reactions to you. And I know that's not the only one and you had mentioned that - you know, I see this a lot, where I'm gonna say men, because it really is mostly men, although I mean, it can happen with women too. But men hate women when it comes to math, period. So to back up, do you remember that whole Gracie Cunningham tweet, did you see that? I think she was a 17 year old girl and she posted this TikTok, and it was her doing her makeup, do you remember that?

Bex  7:08  
Oh, yes!

Vanessa Vakharia  7:08  
So for everyone who doesn't know she posted this TikTok of her doing her makeup and sort of being like, "I don't really get why we need math anyways, like who even invented this?" And people went fucking mental and they were like, "You're so stupid, you're making women look dumb, you're such a dumb girl" - again, a lot, you're so right - there was a lot about like, not "respecting" math. But then all these math professors came on, and they were like, "these are actually really great questions!"

Bex  7:09  
Yes!

Vanessa Vakharia  7:13  
Right? We shouldn't be hating on people for asking questions. So like, what do you think it is? Or do you have an opinion on why people have such a visceral reaction to women when it comes to math?

Bex  7:47  
Yeah, so this is a difficult one, but I agree. I think that especially when you're young, and you know, this girl was very beautiful, and I just think there's this kind of "bimbo" narrative that people do like to feed into and then people aren't like that then they get disappointed, or they're like, "Oh, yeah, that's exactly how I thought she would be". And like, someone actually commented - I think it was on Instagram on the Bustle thing - being like, "oh, just another dumb girl, blah, blah" And I'm just like, wow ... no! But yeah, so I think there is this kind of stigma around women especially. But I'm not really sure why - I guess it's just sexism! It's rife everywhere, all the time, so why not in that?

Vanessa Vakharia  8:39  
Yeah. Well, I think you just said that really, really well. And I think it's true - a lot of the work I do, I have my Master's in math, education and gender studies, and I studied specifically how the media really promotes this stuff, which is why I like, JUMPED on your tweet and was like, "nooooo!"

Bex  8:54  
(laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  8:55  
But let's talk about how you have such a great "I don't give a fuck" attitude. Like, that's kind of your thing on Twitter, but even in real life - but doesn't it get to you if like, 20 people are calling you stupid?

Bex  9:08  
I mean, not online. No, I think if you took in everything everyone says online, you would just be so sad. (laughing) And also, I don't know them and they don't know me, and I know that there's no nuance on Twitter, there's no context. And so people can call you what they like or say what they like - it genuinely doesn't affect me. In real life, if someone is to call me stupid or think I'm stupid, I'm most offended. I think it is especially - so I actually work in the city, and the city is full of a lot of people who have gone to university, very well spoken. And I mean, I'm doing a little bit of a podcast voice now, definitely, I can feel it and all of my friends will watch this and they'll go "you don't sound like that. I don't know what voice that is".

Bex  9:08  
Wait, do your real voice!! (laughing)

Bex  9:40  
I know how to do that! (laughing) I flip between, like (speaks in a different accent) this very posh phone voice -

Bex  10:17  
You've not done that once! (laughing)

Bex  10:18  
Honestly, though, this is a very, I think a very polished version of my voice. But sometimes I've had a wine or something I'd be like "oh yeah, oh right", like "oh you know", and it's awful, and not many people sound like me where I work, and I haven't been to university, and so I spent a lot of time feeling like I have to prove myself. So I do feel like in real life if someone thought I was stupid, that's where I'm like, oh gosh, like I really don't want that - I don't think I've ever played like "the dumb girl", if only by accident. (laughing) Yeah, but on online - say anything, I just don't care.

Vanessa Vakharia  11:02  
This is SO similar to me in so many ways - I am using my actual voice and I have what is stereotypically like a "valley voice", like I've been called a valley girl more times than I can count. So you can imagine in math education, I don't get taken very seriously, which is why I'm so hell bent on this work. So it's just so funny that we are having such similar but different experiences, and I'm really excited to hear that. I want to dig more into this. So as the tweet went on, it came out that you said you had actually tweeted it because you have dyscalculia.

Bex  11:37  
Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia  11:37  
Can you tell us, first of all, tell our listeners, what dyscalculia means for you and tell us some of the stuff that you struggle with on a daily basis when it comes to math.

Bex  11:48  
Yeah, cool. So first of all, I want to say that I'm not formally diagnosed - over here, it's very difficult to do that - it's also just not worth it. I have a job, you know, my life is not impacted hugely by it in that sense. So there's just no need to seek actual diagnosis, but lots of stuff that I deal with would be stuff like memorizing numbers, I cannot do it. Like even smaller sequences, I just can't memorize any kind of numbers, that's impossible.

Vanessa Vakharia  12:17  
Like your times tables or something?

Bex  12:19  
Yeah, like that, oh my gosh, and the worst one, and the most embarrassing - it really is embarrassing - is I can't tell you a number that is over four digits. So I don't know what that number is. And I don't know how many zeros are in a million and all that kind of stuff, like I wouldn't be able to tell you and if you put a number in front of me I can't -

Vanessa Vakharia  12:41  
But you just said it like you mean like if you saw it, you wouldn't be able to read it out loud?

Bex  12:45  
So what happened the other day, which was just unbelievably embarrassing - it actually happened twice, but I'll give you only one example. Basically, I was looking through - my friend had made a lot of money ... um .... on, I think it was OnlyFans. A little cheeky...

Vanessa Vakharia  13:00  
On what?

Bex  13:02  
I don't know if you've heard of it ...

Vanessa Vakharia  13:05  
What is that? Why don't I know what that is?!

Bex  13:06  
Oh oh, I don't know, I don't know what that is ...

Vanessa Vakharia  13:10  
Tell me what it is, quick.

Bex  13:11  
It's just, where you sell, um ...

Vanessa Vakharia  13:15  
Like pictures?

Bex  13:15  
Yeah! Pictures.

Vanessa Vakharia  13:17  
Oh okay.

Bex  13:18  
And stuff ...

Vanessa Vakharia  13:19  
No, yeah, I get it, I get it. (laughing) Ok, well good for your friend, go get it, whatever!

Bex  13:20  
(laughing) Yeah, and she'd made a ton of money, and I was like, wow, and I was showing my other friend, I was like, "look, she made like 1400 pounds last month!" And they were like, Rebecca, that says 14,000. And I was like "... okay, well, first of all, what the fuck?!" (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  13:28  
Like you're like, "get me a camera!" (laughing)

Bex  13:47  
The other one I do is get confused between pounds - this is gonna sound ridiculous -pounds and hours. So, once my mum sent me into the shop to go and buy as many chewing gums as I could with a pound. And they were 40p (pence). And I bought one. And she was like, "okay, why'd you only buy one? How much was this?" And I said, it's "40p". And she's like, "why didn't you get two?" And I was like, "because that wouldn't be a pound" because I thought a pound was 60p.

Vanessa Vakharia  14:20  
Oh, 60!

Bex  14:22  
Like an hour, as in time and I get that confused. I do that a lot, I'm late for a lot of stuff, because I'll put in the amount of time that I'm meant to take, and then it just doesn't and then I'll be like, "Oh shit, I should have left like 20 minutes ago", because I thought it would take an hour but it's actually going to take 100 minutes. It's SO annoying.

Vanessa Vakharia  14:46  
You know what though, that is a really interesting one because I wrote a kid's math book last year and had no idea how to do it, so I was doing all this research and they were talking about how one of the most common problems is that exact issue.

Bex  14:59  
Really?

Vanessa Vakharia  14:59  
And truthfully, you know what I fucking think? We're the ones who invented time, why didn't we just put 100 minutes in an hour?

Bex  15:05  
Right?! Come on, make it easier for me! (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  15:07  
I know, we could have done that, I know. So yeah, that kind of stuff. So this is so, so interesting, so first of all, thank you for sharing that - I feel like most people have no idea. I hate that every example you give you, you feel embarrassed about, I really don't like that. But you know, we have limited time here, so I can't give you full Math Therapy.

Bex  15:35  
(laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  15:35  
But I do want you to know that I deal with 1000s of students and 1000s of people who are good at math, and you probably don't know this about me, but I was on this game show called Canada's Smartest Person where I publicly - in front of 100,000 people - boldly stated that four minus three was two. So yeah - that happened!

Bex  15:55  
And that's your math trauma! (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  15:59  
That was definitely traumatic! (laughing) And I kept going, I was then five minus three was four, like I just kept, I couldn't get out of it, I couldn't see straight - so the point is, it happens! And for sure, it's hard to feel like "Okay, well, I just have these blocks". But the truth is, people have different ways of seeing the world in a bunch of ways. And I think it's really interesting that yours is math related. And I actually wanted to ask you, because I've had this argument with people before where I'm like, people relate math to intelligence. So for example, if someone's a really good artist, we're not like, "Oh my god, they're so smart". Or like someone's really good at knitting or something, like they make this beautiful sweater, which I could never make - but when someone's good at math, they could be a fucking idiot in every other aspect of their lives, but you're like "they're a genius". So then the thing is, when all of a sudden you don't feel like math is your strength, you think that it makes you stupid.

Bex  16:55  
Yes. So there was a picture that genuinely got me through a lot of stuff, it was just a silly little Facebook picture or something stupid, but it was like, "if you tell a fish to climb a tree, it will think it's a failure. But it does really well at, like, swimming around its bowl." We're all good at different things, and that's okay, you don't have to be good at everything. And I know my strengths and I know what I am good at, and I would still say I'm smart. But yeah, I totally agree, it's one of those things that someone can be an absolute idiot in all other senses of the word and be good at math and we're like, "wooooow, they're so smart, that's amazing!"

Vanessa Vakharia  17:41  
Yeah! Okay, we have to move on. Oh, my God, I feel like time is going by too fast, I need to ask you more questions. Because I want to go into how math was for you. Can you give me a rundown of what math was like for you in class? Did you always feel this way? Tell me about your relationship with math growing up? And also because people need to know this, I feel like I've like, buried the lead - Bex works at a bank! Okay, so just, yeah, sit back on that for a second. We're gonna talk about in a sec, but I want you guys to keep that context: we have this amazing woman here, who's like, "Oh, my God, math, la la, la la", but kind of I feel like, you know you're fucking good at math, otherwise, you wouldn't be working in a bank! But we'll talk about that after - tell me about your relationship with math growing up.

Bex  18:28  
So math growing up ... so yeah, it was just always a struggle. So my math homework, I just couldn't do it. I think a lot of it comes from as well my mom, she's brilliant, but she she never struggled with math. She was always kind of like, average ... average feels like a harsh word! (laughing) But she was kind of average at everything. She was just kind of, you know, good at it, she got on with it, it was fine, she wasn't like, REALLY good at anything ... oh, that sounds really horrible!! (laughing) It's not what I meant!

Vanessa Vakharia  18:28  
No it doesn't!  You know what I say, I say this about myself, it's the "jack of all trades, master of none", that's a great skill.

Bex  19:05  
Absolutely, it is a great skill. And I just, if my mother ever listens to this, I didn't mean it badly! And so she just couldn't understand when I couldn't understand, and she would get really angry at me because she's just like, "I'm explaining this to you. Why aren't you understanding it?" But my stepdad is dyslexic, and he would basically come in and he would just get it, he would understand that there was something that just isn't going in. I'm looking at it - it's not going in, it's not working. And obviously, you know, if someone's shouting at you, it's less likely to go in, you know, realistically. (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  19:22  
(laughing) Parents and teachers, you heard it here first!

Bex  19:56  
If you're shouting, I'm not listening. Okay? (laughing) So my stepdad would be good at it and get it and try and explain it. And I mean, I still wouldn't get it, but he wouldn't get annoyed. So it was difficult, but I would - so, because he's dyslexic, I would write out all the words and stuff on his invoices, I'd help him type them up, because it just takes him so long. So we kind of had this little exchange that we did to help each other, it was really nice. And then I think I was in set three in my secondary school for maths - that's not a good set to be in, let's just say it's not, you know, up there.

Vanessa Vakharia  20:39  
(laughing)

Bex  20:39  
And basically, we spent a good six weeks learning Pythagoras theorem.

Vanessa Vakharia  20:46  
Six weeks??

Bex  20:47  
Yeah, because that's how long it takes when no one can do maths in the class. (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  20:51  
Okay, yeah, no, no, no -

Bex  20:53  
And then I moved a couple of hours away and went to a new school. And in my new school, they were just about to start Pythagoras theorem. And I was like, huh - I know this, I've got this, I've just been doing this for six weeks, you know, so I have a bit of a head start here! And my absolutely gorgeous, lovely, amazing math teacher, just the kindest man in the world, he was just such a kind, lovely, lovely, lovely man, he basically said to me, "oh, Rebecca, you're really good at this!" And I was like, "Oh, no, no no, I'm not, I've just done this for a VERY long time in my old school, I was in set three, like, I'm not very good at maths". And he was like, "No, I don't believe you - I'm putting you in top top set next year". So that is the top, the highest that you can be in, everyone in it is doing like extra statistics work and stuff. And they're all like, absolute math whizzes. And I was like, "No, no, no, no, please, you've got this wrong. Like, I can't do this!" And he was like, "No, I believe in you". So he put me in top set and for two years, I wanted to cry every day, because I didn't know what the fuck was going on! (laughing) I had no idea what was going on for two years, and I was so blessed though, because I had really lovely girls who sat next to me who tried to explain things to me, and he was just incredible, he was just a fantastic teacher. And I ended up getting a C and passing - Lord only knows how, I am so sure the examiner just looked at my paper and was like "this poor bitch" - like, Oh, my God, like -

Vanessa Vakharia  22:34  
(laughing)

Bex  22:34  
- my paper said, like "C / D ?". And then they just put a "C" and they just like, never spoke about it again. They were like "this girl's not passing this again". (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  22:44  
Okay, I need to say this to you: do you understand how hard it is to go through math with a learning disability that's undiagnosed? Like, I want you to - well, you do know how, it sounds like you have - I want you to understand this though. So I have a tutoring company, we tutor 1000s of students - at least 30% of these kids have accommodations for their learning disabilities. So the kids I have with dyscalculia in math, it's a diagnoseable term - they have accommodations. Some of those accommodations include the fact that they can always bring a sheet with their equations on it, they never have to memorize everything, they're always allowed a calculator. The fact that you didn't get those accommodations is simply not fair. Right? So that is literally traumatic to be sitting in a room with other people feeling like you should just know what's going on. So like, give yourself some fucking credit!

Bex  23:36  
Oh I do, don't worry.

Vanessa Vakharia  23:39  
Okay, good, good. I'm glad. And second of all, like, okay, God bless your teachers heart, that's so nice - but like, that's also not cool, right?

Bex  23:50  
(laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  23:51  
It's really not! (laughing) It's so nice that he believed in you, but the reason we have streams is so that people can feel comfortable where they are! And actually, I think that the downside is that set three has such a bad rep for being a "bad math" and you don't want to be in this math.

Bex  24:04  
I mean, I didn't care personally, but it was one of those things, and it was a bit of an insult at school that, "oh, you're in set four", "oh you're in set three", it was one of those ones where it had stigma.

Vanessa Vakharia  24:15  
It has stigma and we have that here in Canada, too. Right? We have this applied math where everyone's like, "Oh, I'm in the dumb math". And so first of all, we need to change the perception around that. Not everyone needs fucking calculus, right? But everyone should feel capable of math in some way. And I don't like that you weren't given that opportunity because of all of these mishmash, whatever. But let's fast forward to the fact that you fucking work at a bank. Like how did that happen?

Bex  24:38  
Yes. Well, I'm a PA, so I'm a personal assistant. So my role involves little to no maths, like really, a lot of my role is just writing emails, you know, being chirpy. (laughing) But one of the things as well actually that I struggle with is when I'm trying to sort out time zones, so I always do it the wrong way.

Vanessa Vakharia  25:04  
I actually have trouble with it, I do too though - I just Google it, I just Google "what time is it?"

Bex  25:09  
Oh yeah, I do that. But it will be like, oh, I've got to set up a call tomorrow in Europe time, which is an hour ahead, and then I'll always end up putting it an hour wrong either way, and I'm just like, "fuck's sake!", but no one cares, because I just get on with it and change it, and it's fine, and I'll sort it. I'm like, good at my job, mostly. (laughing) But it's still funny just to say that working in a bank, when you have no idea about numbers, it's just a funny thing. My mum, when I started working at the bank, just pissed herself, she just thought it was the funniest thing. She was like, "you're so jammy, like, how did you end up working at fucking bank, that doesn't make any sense".

Vanessa Vakharia  25:52  
You're so cool! Because you don't give - like this is the thing people don't understand too, is like, being good at math - okay, all those things you listed that you couldn't do because of dyscalculia: NONE of those things make you good at math! You could literally be able to like, spout off every fucking times table in the world and not know how to creatively solve a problem and you're fine at math, but it doesn't make you great. So like, that's the thing, it's not like I want you leaving this podcast being like, I'm a fucking genius. But I do want you to realize, like, you're way better at math than you think. Because if you're problem solving this way, that is actually what matters, right? So even if you are getting that wrong timezone, and then figuring out how to correct it or deciding "you know what, actually this isn't my strength, so what I'm going to do is every single time, I'm just going to google it" - you've solved the problem.

Bex  26:40  
I think outsourcing is always solving problems.

Vanessa Vakharia  26:43  
Yes! That's literally my life mantra!

Bex  26:45  
(laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  26:45  
How do you think this podcast gets done?! That's literally how it gets done!! (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  26:52  
Ugh. Okay, I could talk about this forever with you. Okay, we need to, Okay, we're done. We're not done, but we're gonna do a couple, like three final questions. Tell me honestly, do you feel like you just cannot do math or somewhere deep inside of you are you like, "you know what, I can do some shit, and if I really, really wanted to, if like, my life depended on it, of course, I could learn this, but I just don't."

Bex  26:54  
I don't wanna be like, "I can't do it", but it's something that just doesn't make sense to me. I look at stuff and I can look at it and look at it and look at it., and it is literally like there is a wall in my brain that it will not pass. And the funniest thing when I was growing up, my oldest sister was also quite bad at math. And then she just kind of like - everyone always used to say to me, "oh, like with Joanna, it will just click one day, it will just click it will just make sense". And I've been waiting (laughing) for it to fucking click ... forever.

Vanessa Vakharia  27:51  
I don't feel like that's fair, either. Because from what I'm hearing, it feels like everyone in your life has put you in the driver's seat, being like "it'll just click" or your mom being like, "you're not trying hard enough. Why don't you got it?" Like, has anyone ever used dyscalculia techniques with you?

Bex  28:06  
No, definitely not, and I think it would be wildly different. And also what we were saying earlier about being able to bring a calculator and bring everything - we now live in a time where we are never without a calculator. It is very, very rarely that I am without a calculator, without my phone in my pocket, in my hand - why aren't people allowed to have calculators if it's going to help them? Because I think as well, a lot of it has to do with confidence. My confidence in maths was knocked so early on that, you know, now it is probably a bit too far gone for me, and also, I probably even myself got kind of a mental block going that I just don't want to, it doesn't bring me joy - but you know, perhaps if people were allowed to have calculators, to have the things that are actually available to us at all times, then yes, things can be different. But ... too late for some of us ... (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  29:02  
(laughing) It's not too late!!  But, I think you just articulated it, and that's what want to just, before I ask our two final questions, I do want to just take a moment for a second. Everything you just said - it's funny, because you started by saying "Nope, I just don't think I can do it". But then literally the next sentence you were like, "well, I actually think if I had had this other thing, there's a chance I could have". And that's so important, so I just - I'm not trying to be like so "therapy", but I really want you to leave here being like, this is a very empowering choice you've made to not continue with math, but you were NOT given a fair chance. 

Bex  29:40  
Yes, agreed.

Vanessa Vakharia  29:40  
You really were not given a fair chance. Okay, fine. So we're agreeing on that.

Bex  29:45  
Yes.  I'll tweet it!

Vanessa Vakharia  29:46  
It's gonna fucking go viral. (laughing) Okay. Final two questions. What would you say - so first of all, do you think there's such a thing as a math person, and what would you say to someone who says "I'm just not a math person"? Now that we've had this very enlightening interview, no pressure ...

Bex  30:03  
I guess my main thing would be, I just let people - if you don't want to be a math person, and your life is unaffected by the fact that you're not a math person, and I'm talking about, like I say, equations, or my follow up tweet after that was something like if I'm splitting dinner with friends, I will just let THEM split it and I will let them figure it out. 

Vanessa Vakharia  30:26  
Yes - outsourcing!

Bex  30:28  
If your life is not affected by the fact that you can't, then live and let live, you know, if you don't want to do the math, if you're not a math person, that's fine.

Vanessa Vakharia  30:37  
Okay, and tell me this, what would you change about the way math is taught in school?

Bex  30:41  
The biggest one for me, and this is like shout out to my mom - don't just keep repeating the same teaching method. If it's not working, don't keep shouting the same thing or keep saying the same thing and going over it and hoping that it will click, because it won't. If you don't get it the first time someone has said it in that way, you need to change the way that you're teaching it or you need to change the way that you're saying it. Because too many people just go over and over and over and go "Why aren't you getting it" and then you're just like - blocked, yeah, I'm not gonna do it.

Vanessa Vakharia  31:17  
Exactly. Like imagine you had three people all explaining something the same way and you were like, just couldn't - that would make you think that you can't get it. Whereas, so we have 40 different tutors and we often will need to try three different tutors with a student before the way the tutor - I call myself the "Tinder of math tutoring" - I want to matchmake you! I want you to meet your tutor connection where you're like, "I get how this person is talking to me" - math is a language, you can't just yell at somebody, nobody communicates that way. So I think this is such an amazing story of somebody who - you're so self-assured in what you want, and I think the way you talk about opting out of math is actually really really empowering, so I am going to be fucking spamming Bustle with this to be like "listen, if you wanted to post that tweet, you should have explained the context in which she meant it". Because it is actually empowering to hear you talk about it this way, and you're not saying to people "no, just fucking ignore numbers and like if you can't do it, you can't do it" - you're saying if it doesn't bring you joy and it doesn't affect you, don't do it, and when it does, reconsider, so if you need to like understand a sale price - ask someone instead of just being like I'm just not gonna - 

Bex  31:44  
Yes, exactly!

Vanessa Vakharia  32:17  
Yes. Okay, Bex this has been amazing, you are such an inspiration and I love that you agreed to be on this podcast and to really show that you're open to conversation, because that is what social media should be about, right? About actually having these conversations, so - great.

Bex  32:46  
Agreed.

Vanessa Vakharia  32:47  
Okay fine bye. I guess that's it. See ya.

Bex  32:51  
Seeya!

(outro)

Vanessa Vakharia  32:53  
Okay, was I right? Did you pee? I bet you guys are glad that I warned you. I am obsessed with Bex and I feel like she's lowkey going to become reality-show famous, you heard her here first guys. I loved Bex's honesty and think her message is so important: be true to you, but also don't let other people tell you what you are and aren't capable of. Also teachers: I hope you were listening when she pointed out that explaining the same thing the same way but like, louder, is not a valid teaching method. You can find more of Bex's sassy tweets at @bex_bambi.

Vanessa Vakharia  33:28  
If something in this episode inspired you please tweet us at @MathTherapy. And you can also follow me personally at @TheMathGuru on Instagram or Twitter. Math Therapy is hosted by me Vanessa Vakharia, produced by Sabina Wex and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme song is WVV by Goodnight, Sunrise which is actually my band. If you know someone who needs Math Therapy or needs to hear someone else getting Math Therapy, please share this podcast and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use - those things actually makes such a big difference. I am determined to change the culture surrounding map and to give not like a massive makeover and I truly need your help, so spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday!