Operator  0:02  
You have a prepaid call. This call is from -

Christopher Havens  0:05  
Christopher 

Operator  0:05  
- an inmate at Monroe Correctional Complex. This call will be recorded and monitored. To accept this call, press "5" now.

Vanessa Vakharia  0:15  
(dials "5")

Operator  0:16  
Thank you.

Christopher Havens  0:17  
Hey! ... how is everybody?

Vanessa Vakharia  0:22  
(laughing) We're doing good! How are you doing over there?

Christopher Havens  0:25  
Oh, I'm doing pretty good. A little bit nervous, but I am doing well.

Vanessa Vakharia  0:29  
Well, I think we're both equally nervous probably, because this is for sure the first time I've ever interviewed someone in jail, so yeah, we're ... I'm nervous too!

Christopher Havens  0:38  
(laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  0:39  
Okay, good. I'm glad that was funny. I'm like, is that funny or awkward? I don't even know!

  (show intro)

Vanessa Vakharia  0:43 
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru. And you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.

  (episode intro)

Vanessa Vakharia  1:09  
Guys, this is the last episode of our "math in the media" themed season, and I would be lying if I said that I didn't lowkey save the best for last. Like for real. This is by far the craziest interview I've ever done. Why? Well, for one, this is the first time I've spoken to a legit prison inmate, let alone interviewed one about math. Today's guest is Christopher Havens who was all over the media in late 2020 talking about the incredible connection between math and rehabilitation. While serving a 25 year prison sentence for murder, Christopher discovered math and it gave him a meaning and purpose he had never known before, inspiring him to dedicate the rest of his life to repaying his debt to society, and helping fellow inmates find their own path to rehabilitation through the prison mathematics project that he founded. I wanted this interview to go on for like 10 hours, but it turns out that when you call Monroe Correctional Complex, you only actually have 20 minutes before your call disconnects. But Christopher had this elaborate system with the help of some of his fellow inmates so that we could make sure to finish the convo, and I'm so honored to be able to share this with you today. Since this is a podcast about the perception and impact of math and society, that's what we focused on - but if you want to know more about Christopher's life before math, you can find a really thorough profile on him in the January 2021 issue of Popular Mechanics. All right, last interview of the season, let's do this.

Vanessa Vakharia  2:31  
Okay, so let's just get right into it. I want to know how you discovered math?

Christopher Havens  2:38  
That's kind of an interesting story. I started studying math while I was in solitary confinement. I just got hooked on it. At first, I was in solitary and I was doing Sudoku puzzles to pass my time and then some working out, and it got so monotonous. And so, you know, every day was the same, I could pick patterns out of the movements of everybody. And one of those patterns was this older gentleman walking by throwing envelopes under people's doors. And after a couple weeks, I was curious, because that was the only thing there was to be curious about (laughing) and I asked him what was in the envelopes, and the next day, he shot one under my door and it just happened to be full of math homework, just basic algebra, and trades math. But in that segregation, I just kind of fell into this deep study of it, it consumed my time in a much more meaningful way than any of those puzzles did. And I just kind of became addicted. And I studied and I studied and I was up so late, just doing nothing but that, and my dreams and everything was affected by it.

Christopher Havens  3:49  
And after several months, my thinking and my values began to change. And it was really strange, because I noticed it happening while it was happening. And I remember one time that I was standing there in my cell looking at the concrete on the wall. And I'm just kind of standing there staring off into space at this wall. And I was like, you know, I have 25 years - I can totally become a wizard. And so I decided to start studying mathematics for the rest of my time. And I made this goal that I would learn cryptography and that I would start researching math and I tried to set a goal of publishing math while I was in prison, and it happened within a few years. So it was really amazing, just the whole process. But that was kind of the start of my journey.

Vanessa Vakharia  4:39  
That is so crazy. So first I just want to touch on the fact that, whatever word you would use, the way you're describing it to me sounds like a real, like, spiritual experience which most people don't think of when they think of math. People think of math as so cold and so logical, but the way you're explaining it is so beautiful, and to say that math started transforming you as a person and your perspectives, is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard with regards to someone learning math. So I definitely want to talk about that more. But first, I've got to ask you, were you always interested in math? Like, it's so crazy for me to think that you just got this manila envelope of algebra and you weren't like, "Oh, fuck this" - like, did you like math before? What was your relationship with it before this point?

Christopher Havens  5:27  
I didn't have a relationship with it. Before this point, my mother says that I was really good at it when I was in school. But most of my adolescent years are really fuzzy to me, because I was really big into drug abuse. And so there's a lot of parts of my life that I just can't really recall properly, and that's just one of them. My whole school years - I don't remember being in the math like she describes, just specifically because I don't remember those little details. But it is a spiritual thing for me, in a sense that it's kind of opened my eyes to joy, and beauty and everything I do, because it's all done through this lens of mathematics, and it's not this clinical thing for me.

Vanessa Vakharia  6:18  
Yeah, well, I remember, I actually failed math twice when I was in high school, and I was always told I wasn't the "type" of person who'd be good at math. And I remember, when I finally had it shown to me in a way that I really understood, it became so meditative for me, because, yeah, something about doing the problem, especially when you have like a crazy algebra problem, and it takes up the whole page, and then the answer is like zero or something, and you're like, "Holy fuck!"

Christopher Havens  6:44  
All that for ... nothing?! (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  6:47  
Exactly! (laughing) But it feels so cool, and it's so clean, and you're in a different mind frame when you're working through a problem or trying to solve a problem and thinking mathematically. So I think that's really, really cool. And for that reason, I also became a teacher, right, I wanted to show other people that they can feel this way while doing math. But more than that, that they can feel a certain way about themselves. So being a high school dropout yourself, and never feeling like you've had a relationship with math and obviously, having so much go on in your life - when you started finding math as this spiritual thing, did it change at all - like, I really don't know much about what your outlook was on yourself, or on the fact that you were in prison for 25 more years, like, did it change the way you saw yourself as a human in this world?

Christopher Havens  7:35  
Yeah, it definitely did. That's one of the reasons why I love math so much. Because if anybody's seen my mug shots, they're looking at a totally different person. And it's kind of a scary sight. When I first started doing math in the hole, and as I watched it kind of transforming my thoughts and my behaviors, that power right there to change somebody that I was in that mug shot: that's amazing. And I just, you know, I would probably consider myself to have been one of the lowest creatures on this planet at one point of time - there was nothing good about anything I did. There was no goals or ambitions, and I didn't contribute to society at all ... I don't know, I feel like I'm failing at answering your question, I just got sidetracked, but -

Vanessa Vakharia  8:27  
No, I think you did answer my question. And I think it's so beautiful, and it leads right into what I really can't wait for you to tell me more about which is - you have started the prison mathematics project, right? So you've come from this place where you've used what's happened to you, you found math and saw how it transformed you, and now you're like, holy shit, I am going to use this power to help transform other people. Not that I don't want to put words in your mouth, I'm like rewriting your whole story (laughing)

Christopher Havens  8:54  
No no, that's exactly it. Because there was that transformative process I was telling you about. And the fact that it could change somebody with such contrast - like, the contrast from then to now is so, so huge. And while I was going through it, it was such a beautiful experience. And it totally filled my life with this joy that I've never experienced. And I guess that the only way I can compare this is how other people talk about God. And I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about mathematics, and I wanted to share that with people. Because I am pretty big into the idea of justice and self rehabilitation. And if mathematics could change me like that, I wanted other people to be able to experience it. So we sought to replicate these conditions that I was given, and that is the Prison Mathematics Project. When I had first met my mentor in the math community Luisella (Professor Luisella Caire of the Politecnico di Torino), I was studying in this big, empty place where I didn't have any feedback because I didn't have a teacher and it was kind of alone, even though I love doing what I did. But when I had that element of community, it changed the game considerably. And we want to provide everybody with that element of the community without having to wait all those years to find it. Like, if we can nurse them into this path of desistance - when they're in a mind state that's already receptive, I think that there's a huge potential for change right there, and that's kind of the heart of it.

Vanessa Vakharia  10:44  
That speaks so greatly to the need for a mentor or for role models or for just that connection. And actually, that's part of the reason this podcast exists, because the truth is, learning can often be very isolating. So not only is it isolating at the best of times, like here you are, you want to learn math, and you're feeling isolated, but especially for students who already feel like they don't belong in the mathematical community, like maybe you did when you were younger, or like I did, or many of the people listening to this podcast just feel ostracized from it, it's already so isolating, just feeling that way, that without a mentor or a program like yours, or someone to reach out to, it can be impossible to ever bridge that divide - oh, my God, math pun! (laughing) But it can be impossible to do that. So what you're doing is so cool.

Vanessa Vakharia  11:33  
And actually, I want to fact check - I read somewhere that during the beginning of your studies, you'd actual,ly reached out to a math journal to ask for some help because of what you said the fact that you were kind of studying alone and had no one to ask.  Can you tell me what happened there?

Christopher Havens  11:48  
Yeah, I was just on the end of my stay in the hole, or what you guys know as isolation. And I was studying number theory, but like a bull in a china shop. And I reached out to this journal, the annals of mathematics, and I asked them for a little bit of help. And I told them my situation, and they wrote back saying that they felt that their journal was probably going to be a little bit over my head. But then in turn, they thought that they would pass my information along to one of their colleagues. And several months later, I got a letter from Luisella in Italy, who's a great friend of mine to this day, and she was my mentor for many years. And actually, not many people know this, but it was her and I that kind of sat there after so many books were rejected coming into the institution, we just brainstormed and had this idea of the Prison Mathematics Project. And it didn't have a name back then, but that was kind of the plan, to come to this new institution when I changed prisons, and start this -

Operator  12:56  
You have 60 seconds remaining.

Vanessa Vakharia  12:58  
(gasps)

Christopher Havens  12:58  
- program where we can get these books, and that's kind of how the program got started in the first place. But we're about to get cut off, so let me call you back.

Vanessa Vakharia  13:08  
Okay, perfect, because then you're going to tell us all about how the program works.

Christopher Havens  13:12  
Okay, cool! (hangs up)

Operator  13:15  
(dial tone) To accept this call, press "5" now. To decline this -

Vanessa Vakharia  13:20  
(dials "5")

Operator  13:20  
Thank you.

Christopher Havens  13:20  
Hey, I'm back.

Vanessa Vakharia  13:22  
Oh my god, we are back everyone! Okay, tell me about the prison mathematics project. Like, you know, I'm a prisoner who wants to learn math - what happens?

Christopher Havens  13:31  
Sure! You would write into our organization - we have a PO box. And from there, we have an electronic mail service that scans it and sends it into our website to our volunteers. So the volunteer that's working with that participant inmate will then respond to them electronically, so it's COVID-safe, but it also allows that link and it also allows you to insert anything you want and those responses in there kind of mimicking the idea of those math packs that I was getting while I was in the hole, except this has the added element of this person acting as your mentor and responding to you about just anything, if you need somebody to talk to as a mentor, if you want to learn a little bit of history on a subject or whatever. That's kind of the job, it's just to teach them the essence of mathematics, to bring them into this community and to kind of show them that a different lifestyle exists where they can do something that they love.

Vanessa Vakharia  14:38  
Ok, wow. All right. So I mean, maybe it's just me but like, did this take off? Or were people like "what the fuck dude, I don't want to learn math"? How did you start convincing people in prison that this was a good idea?  I just - the classic stereotype would have me believe that people were like, "Chris - no."

Christopher Havens  14:58  
There was a few of the admin that were like "Well, how many people are actually going to want something like that, because it's math?" And there was actually a bunch of people, it was pretty neat. But we don't have it inside the prison anymore because of COVID, but we were doing events and hundreds of people were showing up at these events, and mathematicians from all over the world were flying in. And it was so amazing.

Vanessa Vakharia  15:23  
Wait, what?!  That is crazy, this is wild.

Christopher Havens  15:26  
Yeah, it was pretty cool. So the idea is that we can't have lectures, right? We don't have anybody to give us lectures. So bring the lecturers into the prison by holding an event and inviting a bunch of professors to talk to us and give us lectures. That was the whole thing and it turned out so amazing.

Vanessa Vakharia  15:45  
It's just so cool. And I mentioned this before, but I wasn't even joking. I'm all about breaking stereotypes about what it means to be a math person. And I always think about that, like I think about myself - I'm always the type of person who gets pegged as not being the "type" of person who's good at math, but I've never really delved into the prison stereotype, which I mean, I just said myself that it's hard to imagine that a bunch of prisoners would want to do math. And here you are being like, "Well, actually, you're totally wrong". So I actually want to take a pause and talk about that. I don't know, maybe I'm just making this up, but I wonder if there is a belief or a false stereotype that maybe they just wouldn't be interested? Whereas you're kind of proving the opposite that actually, if given the opportunity, it is something that people are interested in?

Christopher Havens  16:32  
Well, that's kind of true - a lot of the people are not interested, because there is a lot of people who play the prison game. But a lot of people are seeing the things that are happening because of what I do, and there are a good amount of people that are kind of following suit, which is really inspirational for me.

Vanessa Vakharia  16:53  
Wait, what's that, what's the prison game?

Christopher Havens  16:54  
The prison game is kind of what everybody does by default when they come to prison, or it's this politics that exists inside the prison that exists on a bed of fallacies - the "convict code" or whatever. And you have a lot of people that play that game, they come to prison because they screwed up, and then all they know of prison is what they've heard or see on the TV, or in the movies, and so they play that part as a defense mechanism. And it becomes that reality for a while until they learn that it doesn't have to be - it's very real, but it's also something that can be changed externally, from a sociological perspective. It's what we perceive the prisoner to be that kind of drives that idea.

Vanessa Vakharia  17:42  
Well, I think what's so cool, and maybe you don't even realize this, but I think by doing a program like this, and even this interview and the journals you've been in and the interviews you've been doing, I think you're actually doing a lot more than you think. Like you're not just changing what happens in prison on micro level with the people who are choosing to do math, but I think you're showing the world that there is way more to prisoners than the the stereotypical prison game. I hadn't even thought about this aspect of it, that really your goal isn't just to change what's happening in the present, but to change what's happening outside so that when people get inside, they are motivated to act differently and to actually rehabilitate themselves. And I think that's so fucking cool. Do you personally have an anecdote or a situation you can think of where your program has helped someone rehabilitate or change their perception of self?

Christopher Havens  18:35  
Right off the top of my head? There was this event that we had in 2017 for Pi Day, and -

Vanessa Vakharia  18:43  
Pi Day? Yes!!

Christopher Havens  18:43  
Yeah, well, I throw some events on Pi Day because it's one of my holidays!

Vanessa Vakharia  18:48  
(laughing)

Christopher Havens  18:49  
And so we had this really cool event with some really cool mathematicians. And it got written about in the Math Horizons magazine. And some inmate from Michigan heard about this and wrote in and was just telling them about how he was inspired. And he wanted to get involved and start one of his own, and he was studying math, and his story was almost identical to mine, and it was really neat. But he didn't have that little element of community. And we tried to reach out to him, but his institution has such strict standards with mail that none of us were able to get a hold of him - he didn't even know we were trying to get a hold of him. And so after a year, we just kind of stopped trying because there was nothing happening - we didn't know if he got in trouble or what. But many years later, just recently, right after we launched the prison mathematics project, I had somebody try to reach out to the guy and we found him and we invited him as a member of the team as a participant. And we paired him up with the mentors, and when we spoke to him, his relief that he would have this person in the community, some other mathematician to talk to about his math - it was just so amazing to experience this whole curtain being lifted from him to like, "now I have help. After all these years, I finally have help". And it was like the feeling that I got when Luisella came into the picture, and being able to help somebody with that, it felt so good to be able to do that. And just to realize that we're doing that with so many people, it's hard to comprehend.

Vanessa Vakharia  20:34  
Yeah, it's so beautiful. And it's so crazy, because every time you say something like, you know, almost everything you've said, I can't help but think to myself - of course, we're talking about a specific situation and a specific population, but your story rings true for everyone, there are so many people and students and marginalized populations who often get thrown off the path of math, because they don't have that support, they don't have that connection, they don't have anyone that believes in them. And they do go down very different paths. And I always think to myself, as math teachers, we have this opportunity to get kids at a very young age to show them that they're good at something, that they're capable of something and that they're powerful at something. And we often miss that opportunity by dismissing kids as not being the right "type" of kid or the right type of person.

Christopher Havens  21:26  
I think about that, I think about what would have caught me when I was a kid, I always try to think of something that would have changed my trajectory. And I think one of the things is they don't really teach us some of these very easy ends of the advanced topics that are so beautiful. We are fed this basic curriculum, the standard curriculum until we reach college. But what if they knew that there was something badass to look forward to? What if you taught them modular arithmetic, and then just showed them how you can apply it to something like barcodes, which is pretty easy to understand if you break it down the right way? And there's all these topics that move into the advanced that are accessible at a really basic level.

Vanessa Vakharia  22:20  
Yeah, and I think it goes beyond even learning a specific topic, it goes into feeling like there's something beautiful out there in the world. Like, not to be too cheesy, but by showing them something like that, you're kind of showing them a little taste of the fact that there's something bigger than them out there that they can learn about, and that now there's this air of mystery and magic, and that alone can be motivating for a kid and then showing kids that they're capable. So, literally looking a kid in the eye and being like, "I believe in you, you can understand this, you can do this", like, that's really empowering. And that does not happen to many kids, right? Like I always say, math is usually one of the first things that many kids are taught that they cannot do, right? Like they get labeled right away: "Oh, you're not the type of person who can do math." And right away when you're like six fucking years old, you're like, "there's something on this planet I can't do" and that feels shitty. Right?

Christopher Havens  23:15  
Right - it is. And I was a victims of intellectual bullies, and elitism in our educational system. And it's really discouraging. And if you pair that with a teacher that doesn't match the learning style of the student, then they're lost. They're completely in a different realm. And it turns into an ugly subject, because of the external factors around them and not the subject itself. Like, what if we catered to more than one learning style? Say, "Okay, this is how you do that, and here's another way you can try that - and anybody have any suggestions on something else?", and it can turn into a game, and then it can turn into something fun. And the guy that didn't understand the first two ways might understand the other.

Vanessa Vakharia  24:06  
Well, I love that. And I think that helps every kid feel included as though they have something to bring into the world, right? Like you think, "Wow, there is something unique about me that I have to share with this world". And maybe it's a new perspective, or a new way of solving a problem. And that's where so many people miss the mark with math as we teach kids "no, if you don't do it this way, you're not allowed to be in the club", and they're like, "Oh, well, that fucking sucks". Right? And that's so discouraging. 

Vanessa Vakharia  24:32  
Okay, so I wanted to ask, I read somewhere that you had said something really beautiful, and I wanted to just like pry a little - you had said something about how incarceration is not a strong enough factor to take the beauty from a mathematical life. How do you feel right now knowing you have 12 years left, and how is math kind of something that's there for you during that?

Christopher Havens  24:54  
I just plan on walking the same path and I'm gonna be doing the exact same thing except with a little bit less technology and friends. I definitely think that it's my responsibility to try to help people towards this path of desistance. And I also think it's my responsibility to help anybody who's genuine about their learning. And so, while I'm down, I have no problem doing that.

Vanessa Vakharia  25:26  
What an amazing outlook. Are there ways that listeners can help? Like, do you guys need resources? Do you need more volunteers? What are the kinds of things that listeners can do if they want to help you out and help you expand the program?

Christopher Havens  25:40  
Absolutely. Yes, we definitely need resources. Yes, we definitely need volunteers. We're always looking for volunteers, because we have more and more inmates looking for mentors. But we also need volunteers who are not willing to be mentors. And we're open to suggestions for improvements, so anybody who would be interested in helping can visit our website, prisonmathproject.org.

Vanessa Vakharia  26:03  
Perfect. Okay, I have the weirdest question before I ask you our final two questions. Is there the type of culture in your prison where people make fun of you for being smart? Like, is that a thing?

Christopher Havens  26:16  
Almost. Prison for me, it's kind of like my neighborhood is the ghetto. And when I come out of my room, it's like walking into a sports bar, where it's always Super Bowl Sunday, it's loud, and it's hard to focus. But that's just kind of the way these places work. It's just not really a place that fosters education in the way you would want, studying at this level.

Vanessa Vakharia  26:50  
I hate that - maybe I'm biased, but I feel like education is one of the most important things and that's something we need to be focusing on!

Christopher Havens  26:59  
I definitely agree. And the way it's set up right now, even with the administrative side, is people who are short on time get education on priority, as opposed to people who have long sentences. And I think that it's a little bit backwards, because the people who are in here and serving long periods of time, if they're denied education, and they then hit the card table for the next 20 years, because they're not allowed to enter into these educational programs - well, isn't that gonna condition them into this criminal element moreso? And then when they get short on their time, then all of a sudden offer them this chance of redemption that they should have been offered so many years ago? Well, these people are usually the people who influence the younger generation the most that come in here. And so that's an important demographic inside the prisons to hit - it shouldn't be limited to anybody, it should be available for everybody.

Vanessa Vakharia  28:01  
Well, thank you for explaining that so clearly, because I did not know any of this. So I'm sure many other people listening didn't know any of this either. So coming literally straight from you, I feel is so so powerful - it's not coming from some wack politician, it's coming from someone literally on the inside, who has rehabilitated with education and is trying to do that for others. I can't give you enough praise or admiration for what you're doing, I think this is so fucking dope. And I'm pumped to be able to help spread the message, and I'm excited to hear what everyone thinks.

Vanessa Vakharia  28:35  
And we have to wrap up with the final two questions, because I could talk to you forever, but we're just gonna get cut off again. Okay, but Christopher, before I ask you the final two questions, is there anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to make sure we mentioned?

Christopher Havens  28:52  
I just want to mention that there are more inmates that are serious about this idea of justice and self rehabilitation through this concept of a different type of productivity in prison, and you can actually read what they have to say, at humanme.org. There is a whole blog full of people who are serious about their rehabilitation and a different perspective for you to take on inmates - that's the place to go.

Vanessa Vakharia  29:29  
Okay, that's amazing. We'll put all of these links on our show notes page, for sure. And let me ask you the two questions I ask everyone. So the first question is, what would you say to someone who doesn't think they're a math person?

Christopher Havens  29:42  
Oh, well, I would say that you have been taught by the wrong person. And I apologize for any mistakes that your teachers or your students inflicted upon you in the past, but there are beauties that you cannot imagine in mathematics and they were not available to the people who taught you before and so you'll have to forgive them - give another person a chance.

Vanessa Vakharia  30:06  
That is such a kind, compassionate answer! Okay, and finally, my final final question is what is one thing you wish you could change about the way math is taught in schools?

Christopher Havens  30:17  
I would just want our teachers to realize that there are several learning styles, and not to teach just one. And I think that our books need to reflect that as well.

Vanessa Vakharia  30:26  
Okay, our books are disgusting!

Christopher Havens  30:28  
Also, I want our students to start seeing these beautiful fruits of mathematics and options that are going to be available for the future - give them something to look forward to.

Vanessa Vakharia  30:38  
I love that. Can I actually ask you a question I didn't ask before, but I'm curious - was there a point in your life where you felt like things diverged? Like a gap at some point in your life that set you on the "wrong path"? Or was it just kind of like a series of events?

Christopher Havens  30:56  
Yeah, I actually was one of those people that fell into the whole, "trying to impress everybody". For my whole life, I was always trying to be one of the cool kids. And I was never one of them, I was always kind of awkward, and I would do anything to impress the cool kids. And I found myself having the hots for a beautiful girl, and she was into drugs, and I smoked some weed with her, and from there, I did some pills, and it just kind of cascaded because that little community of drug users accepted me. And so I started doing more drugs, and different drugs. And that whole idea of trying to impress somebody, trying to be this, this cool ... "whatever ", is so false, man. And the moment I finally let that go - and I know when it was, it was when I was 31 years old - the moment I finally let that go, I'd finally seen that there is beauty and joy in life that we missed out on.

Vanessa Vakharia  32:06  
Well, for what it's worth, I think you're pretty fucking cool.

Christopher Havens  32:10  
Thank you. I appreciate that.

Vanessa Vakharia  32:13  
You're definitely one of the coolest people I've personally spoken to. And I know for sure that everyone listening to this is going to think that and it's just such a fucking full circle moment. Because, obviously totally different contexts, but the idea of - you definitely don't know this, but part of my thesis research so many years ago, was literally called "Imagining a world where Paris Hilton loves math". And it was about the idea that coolness is what prevents many kids from doing math - obviously, this is different than your story, but it's a crazy intersection between our paths in a way, because my whole research was about what is the idea of being cool, how does it manifest itself in media? And how does it prevent kids from wanting to try to be smart? So like, how fucked is that, that we just found that out at the end of this convo?

Christopher Havens  33:02  
Can you email that to me? I want to read that!

Vanessa Vakharia  33:05  
Yeah! I'll email you the 25 page version, and then the 100 page version ... I mean, you have time, so maybe you maybe want the longer version. (laughing) But you'll see there's a whole chapter on the idea of being cool. And it's so fucking interesting, because my thesis is specifically on femininity, so it's like very focused on girls - but you could write a whole thesis on masculinity and the idea of being cool as a guy, and how that might prevent guys from going into math or being intelligent. It's pretty crazy, I'm actually kind of freaking out that you just brought this up right now! 

Vanessa Vakharia  33:41  
Okay. Well, I'll send it to you, for sure, thank you for sharing so much today, like so much of this is such personal stuff. And I really, really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today.

Christopher Havens  33:52  
I will take the time to talk to you anytime you want. 

Vanessa Vakharia  33:55  
Yeah, you just had so much cool stuff to say, and I really, really am so excited for everything you're doing. And I hope you like know - I mean, I know you know, but I hope you like really know how much of a difference you're making, like you are already changing the lives of so many people.

Christopher Havens  34:08  
Well, it's my ... this is gonna sound strange, but it's my responsibility ... it's kind of my, it's ... my debt, it's part of my debt. And I gotta keep doing it for the rest of my life, because the debt does not go away. It's just one of those things that I realized a long time ago that this work doesn't stop when I get out of prison, and it's just gonna be one of those things that it's finally paid when my last breath is spent. So I will be doing this nonstop.

Vanessa Vakharia  34:41  
Christopher, it has been literally one of the highlights of my short career as a podcast host to interview you. Thanks for being a guest.

Christopher Havens  34:49  
Thank you. Likewise.

   (outro)

Vanessa Vakharia  34:52  
I mean, I'm kind of speechless, which as you can imagine, is a first for me. I just can't get over that last line. That math is Christopher's debt to pay and it won't be paid until his last breath. I mean, wow. You know, guys, the premise of this entire podcast is discussing the harmful ways that societal pressures and stereotypes can totally derail a student's life, forcing them to conform and accept limitations that are just totally made up. And I was honestly shocked to learn that what led Christopher down the wrong path was simply the pressure to fit in and be cool. I can't stop thinking about all the students I've met over the years who feel that same pressure from the media and school system. But what gives me hope is that Christopher is also an incredible example of how stereotypes can be broken and how it's never too late in life to find a better path. Every single one of us has the power to change the status quo for ourselves and for the world around us. So don't be afraid to break your own stereotypes and don't shy away from challenging conversations.

Vanessa Vakharia  35:49  
I have learned so much this season and have been so honored to talk to such a wide range of brilliant and passionate guests. And I hope they've inspired hope and wonder in you too. So whatever it is that you want to be - go out there and be it, because I believe in you and the world needs to see it.

Vanessa Vakharia  36:07  
I cannot believe it's the end of the third season of Math Therapy. But don't you fret because we have a lot more plans, so make sure you're subscribed. As always, if something in this episode inspired you please tweet us at Math Therapy. And remember to also follow me personally at @TheMathGuru on Instagram and Twitter. Math Therapy is hosted by me Vanessa Vakharia, produced by Sabina Wex and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme song is WVV by Goodnight, Sunrise, which is my band. And guys, if you know someone who needs Math Therapy or needs to hear someone else getting Math Therapy, please share this podcast and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use - those things make a huge difference. As you know, I'm determined to change the culture surrounding that and I need your help. So spread the word and see you next time.