Intro

SPEAKER_00 0:01

If you just go, we're gonna learn pulleys, pendulum, like who's gonna build a clock? Like for physics, I wish it was taught me like, look, they're quantum computers, we're trying to look for dark matter, like we're sending rockets to the moon. These are the big things that we're working on. And like, to understand a quantum computer, you need to understand harmonic oscillators, which is a pendulum. And like, that's why we're learning about a little something like a pendulum.

The "Quantum Ballerina"

SPEAKER_01 0:25

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the math guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, so what if I told you guys that today's guest has a dream? And that dream is to dance on the moon with a robot. And also, that dream is kind of actually within reach. Would you freak out like I just did? Probably not because you're much more chill than I am. But either way, guys, today I'm talking to Dr. Merritt Moore, better known as the Quantum Ballerina. Merritt has a PhD in atomic and laser physics from the University of Oxford and is also a legit professional ballerina. She was recently featured on the Forbes 30 under 30 and was one of 12 candidates featured on the BBC show Astronauts. Do you have what it takes? And guys, over COVID, she legit got viral famous for dancing with a robot. Dr. Merritt Moore, welcome to Math Therapy. We're so excited to have you. So you call yourself the Quantum Ballerina because you're both a ballet dancer and a quantum physicist, which is so, so cool. And I I guess I just want to start by saying, what do you think that you bring to both of those fields? Like, you know, what do you bring to quantum physics because of your ballet experience? What do you bring to ballet because of your quantum physics experience?

SPEAKER_00 1:53

Interesting. I do find that they help each other and definitely like having the physics background, I think just gave me like an intuition for where the center of mass is, what my torque is, moment of inertia, like projectile motion, like for the leaps. So I, because I started dance late and then was at Harvard studying physics while also auditioning for ballet companies, like time was not in my court, like I did not have time. So I spent a lot, there was a lot of power in the visualization. So I'd visualize like when I went to bed, and I would visualize in the studio, like before I do a move. Like and I think it's it's from doing all those problems and like the projectile motion problems. Like before I do grandchete, I kind of see where my legs are gonna go, like in terms of the angle that I'm gonna take off in order to get the max height, and like and seeing where the center of mass is. So I'm not fighting nature, I'm like using it to help me. I really don't know if I would have made it as a professional ballet dancer if I didn't have that knowledge.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Okay, oh my god, like a million things just popped into my head. Because number one, you're giving life to the people who started in the arts late in life, because I this is now just a personal moment for me where I'm like, I think we always hear that like time is not on your side, like chop chop. So it's really nice to see that you're being successful in like an arts field, which is normally reserved for the quote unquote younger folks. Um, but more than that, this is really giving a whole new meaning to um the question of where will I ever use math in real life? Like I think about, you know, no one's ever telling students who are creative and who are in math class saying, you know what, I want to go into the arts. Like no one's ever saying to them, well, imagine, you know, twerk when you're dancing or so I think this is like a really, really cool concept. Um, I've always personally had so much trouble bridging the identity of being a musician with being a mathematician. Like I always feel like it's on me to not confuse people, you know. So, like if I'm pitching an interview or if I'm talking to someone or someone at a party says, What do you do? You know, and you say, like, you know, I say I'm in a rock band, but I'm also a math teacher, people kind of almost dismiss both identities. Like they're like, uh, have you ever felt like that? And like, how do you cope with that?

SPEAKER_00 4:21

It's that for sure. Exactly. It's like if you say you do two things, like people think they negate each other.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:30

Like, and you're like, no, it doesn't mean I do nothing. Like, um, it's it's it's a very hard battle, and I it's continual. Um, because there is this mentality that you can only do one thing to be good, and doing two or if you're doing something else, it means you're disloyal to the other field. Like, so in physics, I always felt like when they found out I danced, you know, that I wasn't really into physics, that I didn't care about it, even though I was putting in just as many hours as anyone else. And and same with dance, like dance, the dance world was like, you know, so many times it was like you can only dance, otherwise you're not loyal to it. And and and there's so many times there were like on my CV, or if I'm applying for dance jobs, I won't put down the physics stuff, or I'll put it in very small print all the way at the bottom on the second page on the back side. Or, you know, and then applying for physics, like you know, same thing. I won't really put the dance stuff on there just because it seems, you know, sometimes it negates what you've actually done.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Well, it's like so interesting because as you're talking, I'm sort of like, okay, we kind of started this with you literally talking about how being part of both of these fields helps the other field, right? Like it makes you a better ballerina to actually be into physics, it makes you a better physicist to be able to see the human side of ballet. But why do we see physics and something creative as so diametrically opposed?

SPEAKER_00 6:07

Yeah, it drives me bonkers. This this belief that, oh, if someone's showing some sort of creativity when they're a baby, that means they're gonna go into arts, literature, and that. Yes. And then if they show any type of like analytic, like putting a puzzle piece together, to like science, math, can't do like you're either one thing or the other. Yes. And I'm just like, oh my God, I can't tell you how many times you have like you have to be creative in the physics lab. You just like how on earth are you gonna imagine like quantum or like come up with new ideas at the frontier? Like if you're not creative, like yeah, you have to be, yeah, that part. I'm like, there are two parts of the brain, and most people, I would say, have both sides of the brain in their brain, like in their heads, you know. I know are we? You're either left brain or the right brain, and you're like, oh my god.

Being a woman in STEM

SPEAKER_01 6:59

I hate that. And I also feel like no one even understands what it means. Like, but I think people love to categorize, and it's almost like they're trying to make the world easier for themselves. Like, do you know what I mean? They're like, I just I need to understand this world in this very specific way. I'm actually very into astrology, but sometimes I'm like, that's exactly like almost what we, you know, people want to be like, I'm such a Gemini, or like, you know, you want to make almost the world smaller so we can understand it better. And it is really insane because I mean, I kind of want to talk about even just being a woman in physics for one second. I feel like that limiting belief of saying, uh going so far with this stereotype as to say, okay, never mind if you're creative, you're not good at math. But if you're a woman, you might not be good at math or physics. Like that's almost like a really dramatic but very common extension of trying to stereotype and put people in boxes. So did you ever did did that ever play a role? Like when you were in physics?

SPEAKER_00 7:57

I'm I have to put like a big shout out to my mom and dad um because I did not feel that at all, ever. Um, so I grew up in LA and my dad was an entertainment lawyer. And I think because we were in LA, they were like, oh my god, no TV in the house, no Barbies, no fashion magazines. Like they were just like, they're like, you know, girl, because I had a sister too, and they're like, we have two girls, and it's just bombardment of it. Like, it's just continual about what they should look like, and it's like causes low self-esteem, and like it's just can constantly that you know that they're supposed to look like Barbie dolls, and in these Hollywood, like so it was like massive. My parents just went a hundred percent the other way, and so it was like none of that stuff in the house. And then my dad would just like every day just be like, girls are smarter than boys, like you know, girls can do everything, like girls are tougher than boys, girls are smarter, like, but he was just trying to counter what we hear on the deal. And so I think it's hard for guys when I tell them that they go, Oh my god, but they don't, I don't think they realize what we women have to fight against daily.

SPEAKER_01 9:17

Well, it's constant, and that's that's the thing. It's like, okay, like sure, I'm not no one's saying, I mean, I'm certainly not saying girls are smarter than boys or that boys are smarter than girls, but it's almost like your dad had to over-correct, right? You're like over-cor correcting to compensate for the fact that you're literally taught the opposite every day. And like, I mean, where does this I always am like, where do these things come from? I'm obsessed with the media. I think so much of it comes from the media. Like, yeah, you you know, where are we seeing images of girls who are like, okay, so obviously you're a very cool person, but like, how crazy is it that you're this is so unusual for people to see a ballerina who's also a physicist that it's like blown up so hugely because people are like, whoa, that's insane. I mean, please not to take away from your accomplishments. You are amazing, but it why is that so unusual?

SPEAKER_00 10:06

I agree. I agree. I'm just like, there should be a lot more. Cause I'm like, I feel like I'm flailing through this. And I'm like, a lot of people are way more talented than me. So it's like, there should be like there should be a lot more of us.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Okay, well, definitely, I definitely don't think that, and I I mean you're making such a difference, right? Like in addition to obviously pursuing these dreams for yourself. Like, I think this is really changing the game for students who see that it is possible to be both and not to have to leave their identity at the door just to be in STEM. And it's so interesting because so many of our students, so I run a tutoring center and we have hundreds of students, okay? Yeah, but a lot of the girls dance, like a lot of them, right? Like they go to dance five days a week, like that's really their thing. And it is such an easy, like their parents will call me on the phone and say, you know, my daughter needs to get an AD in math, blah, blah, blah, but she dances five days a week. So, like, can we just figure this out so she can get through? Right. Like it's always this aside instead of being like, Yep, she both dances and she's also really interested in STEM. So, like, how can we meet these two together? So I think it's so important. Like when I hire tutors, I try to hire hire people who are also dancers or also athletes or whatever, so that they can see, oh, like I don't have to ditch one of those identities. That's great. Well, I was gonna ask you, like, you know, in your physics classes, did you find that there was a gender discrepancy?

How parents can nurture love for math

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Uh well, for sure. There were many classes where I was the only female, or maybe there were two females and like oh my god, you know, 20 to 30 guys. Um, but I think I don't know, it didn't really dawn on me for a really long time. Like, I think I just sat in the front of class and you know, I could imagine a thousand girls behind me, like I love that. I didn't understand the fight that a lot of girls have to go through because I was told I I was just my my parents brainwashed me the opposite way.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Parents always ask me this question, right? And I'm always like, Yep, you can do as much as you can in the household and like like your dad did, but it's so hard when your kid goes into the outside world. Like, how are you? I'm actually more fascinated. Should we interview your dad? Like, how did he do this? Because how were you not affected by like your friends or your peers or media? Like, how did you say so strong to that identity of being like, nope, I can do whatever I want?

SPEAKER_00 12:23

I started very early. It was the fun, like at night, you know, my parents would reach us and and we would um I would do math flashcards with my dad, and we'd do like how many flashcards can I do in a minute? But it was all just fun. Like, yeah, my dad was a full-on, like, if I got something right, he was like, Why? You know, we had these great Danes that would then like start running around because he would be yelling and like, oh my god. It was just like a full-on party every time I we did math.

SPEAKER_01 12:55

Like it was like, I love this.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

You know, there was it was never like, oh, you didn't get this. Like, there was never, it was okay, full-on positive reinforcement of like horns were tuning, like it was a full-on siesta. Like I mean, my mom filled the house with like 3D puzzles, puzzles, mind games, like at the toilet, there's like a box with like with books of like mind puzzles and like but it was in done in such a subtle way. Well, not very subtle, but like I want to go to the bathroom in your house. But we just started growing up with like the you know, periodic table as plant as dinner mats, and it just was part of it. So there was never a oh Mary, you should read this or that. Like there was it was just there. It was just there. I mean, now I look back, I'm like, my mother was this is crafty.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

This is sneaky, but I love this because it's that exact idea of like it's not like you had like quote unquote math time where you had to like put aside what you were doing. It's like it was just part of the fabric of your life, and that is, I am very inspired by this. Also, this post sounds like a really fun escape room, and I want to move in. That is so it sounds like kind of the perfect mock tail, kind of, because I think not a lot of kids have that experience doing math with their parents, let me tell you, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:14

Like, I think it's hard, it's intimidating.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Well, so I wanted to ask you this quick. Um, you had said that you came to dancing later in life. What was that decision? Like, how did that happen?

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Well, I was I identified as like a tomboy. Like I was like, oh, I do, you know, I played football with my dad. And then um, I went into gymnastics when I was 11, and then I did gymnastics for two years, but my body type, I was just a bit gangly. So I just kept getting injured. Um, I had to quit, which was like one of the hardest heartbreaks. Um, and I wanted to go into karate because my mother was a double black belt, but because she was that way, a blood double black belt, she was specific about the teachers. So she was like, no, you should do ballet to fix your posture before you do karate. And I it was like this whole thing where I was like, I don't want to. Um and then I and then I did ballet and I just like the music turned on. I was like, oh, okay. The body moving to music. I was like, this is my language, this is where I'm at.

SPEAKER_01 15:15

So how old were you?

SPEAKER_00 15:17

I was 13. I might with like 12 or 13.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

So 13 is later in life.

SPEAKER_00 15:23

Oh, it's middle aged. Oh, it's like super late. Oh my god. Like I'm I'm being told you will never make it. Like 13's too late.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

I can't. This is like I'm starting to sweat. That's actually so stressful. Like, what was I doing at 13? Like picking my nose.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

But because I mean I'm now at an older, but the generation right before was like they were in companies at 16 and the principal dancers at 16. Like, it's true.

Dancing with a robot

SPEAKER_01 15:53

And I always feel like this way when people talk about like hockey players that retire when they're 22. And I'm like, I'm sorry, what? Like, I think I was at a rave when I was 22 every weekend. Okay, tell us about the robot.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah, interesting. So I was dancing uh after my PhD, I was dancing with Norwegian National Ballet and a lot of the classical ballets, but I was missing the lab. And so I like discovered that my friend had this robot. I was like, can I hang out with it? Um and and somehow from there got a residency at Harvard Art Lab to just explore movement. And this is literally right before the pandemic. So this is January, February, and pandemic comes and just all my dance stuff was canceled, like I just said everything. And I just did not know what to do. But I was like, this is like pacing Hyde Park in London. I was like, there's gotta be a silver lining, and then I was like, huh, well, interesting. I was just dancing with a robot because I can't dance with humans, but robots can't get COVID. So robot company, lend me your robot. And so that was just literally this pandemic was me just locking myself in a studio with a robot, just creating stuff, um, not knowing where I was going. And it was, I think I had some mentors who were like, Merit, what are you doing? It's just it's stupid, pretty much. Um, I was like, but I like, I want to do it, I'm gonna do it. And so explored that and now it's now it's just really taken off. You know, got featured in time and financial times and vogue and BBC and looking back, I was it was difficult because I it wasn't like I was getting an income. It wasn't like I was it was hours and hours a day.

Dancing on the moon?!

SPEAKER_01 17:34

Yeah, I mean, okay, everyone needs to stop. Like, don't stop the interview right now, but at the end of the podcast, go look this up on YouTube because it is stuff. I mean, I didn't know what to expect. I was like, oh my god, the robot doesn't have a head. Like, what is this? But then it was so cool. Like, how is it doing all the moves? Like, obviously, you can't explain this all to me now, but it was beautiful and so awesome. And all right, so finally, you mentioned in an interview somewhere that your goal is to dance on the moon, and you're now suddenly becoming, I mean, you're being so chill about all this, but like you're becoming an astronaut. Can we just discuss?

SPEAKER_00 18:04

I want to so I got to do this um BBC astronauts Do you have what it takes, where they had astronaut Chris Hadfield take us through like astronauts election process, yeah, and which was insane. Like they just threw us in a helicopter and we're like, fly it. No lessons, just do it on the first day. I was like, oh my god, you guys are crazy. Um, and you know, they dunked us in capsules that went underwater and upside down and break out, and yeah, and then they flew us to Germany to do the simulator to dock the Soyuz to the International Space Station. Like it was the most nuts thing I've ever experienced. Um, and now there's just a lot more ventures going into space. So they're exciting, um like you know, inspiring people like Yusaka Mazawa, who's gonna take eight artists around the moon. Like they're things that are just happening. And so I'm definitely training, like I'm starting my private piloting license and um just doing that's where I want to go. I want to go to space.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Oh my god, like imagine you're dancing with the robot on the moon. Like that could happen.

SPEAKER_00 19:10

I girl, I don't um, yes, I want this to happen.

Q1: How math is taught in school

SPEAKER_01 19:14

It's gonna happen. It's gonna happen. We you've heard it here first. You actually haven't heard it here first. You've said it many places before. Okay, but you've also heard it here. You are the coolest. We have to wrap up sadly with our final two questions that I ask every guest. And I need to know what you're gonna say, but I'm just so excited for people to hear this. Like, I'm excited for our listeners to hear this. I also like want parents to hear this. Like, I feel like this is just such a cool approach to empowering parents and families with the knowledge that there is something you can do. I think sometimes we feel really powerless in the face of the media. Like we're kind of like, oh, like, you know, we teach our kids one thing and then they go out there and they're fucked. But like this has been really helpful. So, okay, question number one. If you could change one thing about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 20:00

I wish they would start from the top and then go down, just being like, really describe like all the amazing things where it's used. Like for physics, I wish it was taught being like, look, there are quantum computers, we're trying to look for dark matter, like there's quantum cryptography, there's like, you know, like all these things where it would get people, you know, we're sending rockets to the moon, like physics. Just being like, these are the big things that we're working on. And like to understand a quantum computer, you would need to understand qubits, like quantum bits. To understand that, you need quantum harmonic oscillators, to understand that, you need harmonic oscillators, which is a swing, you know, a pendulum. Right, right. And like that's why we're learning it about a little dumb thing, like a pendulum. Which, if you just go, we're gonna learn pulleys, pendulum, and like ramps, like for the next two years. Like, why? That's so boring. Who's gonna build a clock? Like, I'm just like, why are we learning? Yeah, because then you get to learn, you know. So it's like starting from the top, anyways. That was a long answer, but it was no.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

Well, I was getting excited. I was like, oh my god, dark matter, I need to go to a physics class. Like, why? I get it.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah, like that's why we understand the really boring stuff. That's why we spend time learning the boring stuff, but no one gives the why. It's like no one gives the why.

SPEAKER_01 21:22

It's true. It's like almost starting with the forest instead of the individual trees, like being like, look at all the stuff you could uncover in this giant forest. Now we're gonna get to the nitty-gritty. I totally agree. Like, we I don't even know what's going on with education. Like, it's like, you're right, that is so boring. And also so many teachers are just like, you just need to learn it to pass the test. And you're like, wow, that's so inspiring. Okay, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Or like that analogy, it's like we don't even tell them that there's gonna be a forest. We're like, here's dirt, dig in it and fantasy. You know, it's like just nothing. Like, why am I getting my hands straight? Like, this sucks, you know. But no one's like, like, yeah.

Q2: I'm not a "math person"

SPEAKER_01 21:57

No, it's so true. Why would I just Want to sit around digging dirt. No 16-year-old wants to do that. Okay, final question: What would you say to someone? And this is very interesting. Like, we could almost picture like the dancer or the quote unquote creative student. What would you say to someone who says, Well, I'm just not a math person?

SPEAKER_00 22:18

It just it really doesn't exist. Like the the problem is we just don't give it time. Like if anyone's, you know, if people gave it the amount of time that they give anything else, it would be excellent at it. It would feel like second nature. But I think it's kind of you do it for five minutes here and then you do it for five. Like, no wonder it feels so foreign is because it's not one's language, and so it's like this forcing. Like what do people say? Like, or if you see it enough times, you learn it, and then there's like a couple more times to that, and you just believe it. Like you if we're not if we don't see it enough, then yeah, no wonder it doesn't feel right. Like it's not intuitive.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

I love what you said, and that idea of like it feeling familiar, or but this is so interesting because my last interview with a guest, he was saying that this is like because I'm now like this is all coming together full circle of how you feel in a way. He was saying that we place emphasis on like the conscious ways we're doing math. So, like people are like, oh my god, it takes so much effort. You've got to sit there practicing your times tables, you know, and we think so much about it as like nurture, but you're not realizing all the time, like I'm thinking about you personally, you know, you just casually seeing that periodic table, you sitting on the toilet, like doing your sudoku, like whatever, whatever. We didn't think about that. Like someone might say it's nature, like, oh, Merritt just like was always good at math, but no, it was that subconscious nurture your parents placed in your realm from day one. It's not that you were quote unquote a math person, it's that you were nurtured from a young age in all these subconscious ways. So it didn't feel like you said, it didn't feel like you were putting in hard work necessarily, but you were working at it all the time. Like you actually were. So I love kind of how you put that because it's a different way of saying the same thing, which is it is way more nurture than it is nature, but we have to allow time and space for that nurture to occur.

SPEAKER_00 24:19

Yeah, I think that's true. Like I think if it was like, you know, people had access or only access to like math books and not normal books, you know, for the first part of their lives, like they would find literature quite tricky or challenge, or like you know, different, like it would feel foreign just because you know, it's it's whatever you're used to, I think is and and and as you put it, that was well said. I think there is so much more to nurture or just where you spend your time.

Outro

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Yeah. Oh my god. Okay, this has been amazing. I want to say thank you so much, and I'm so again, I'm so excited for everyone to hear your story. You are awesome and thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 24:58

This has been fun.

SPEAKER_01 25:00

Bye. Well, holy shit. Merritt is legit the coolest, and she is so humble about it. I mean, like, if this was me, I would walk around in a tutu just for the fuck of it and tell everyone how fucking smart I was. But no, not Merritt. Merritt is chill, poised, and changing the way we forever stereotype both ballerinas and women in physics. And the world is a better place with her in it. Also, B.S. Merritt, if you're listening, if you do end up going to the moon and get a plus one, please take me with you. I can't dance and I'm scared of heights, but like I'm very into astrology, so maybe just think about it. Follow Merritt and all her coolness on Instagram and Twitter at PhysicsonPoint and spread the word. The world needs to see more women like Merritt smashing that glass stereotype ceiling. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us at Math Therapy. And you can also follow me personally at the Math Guru on Instagram or Twitter. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Koachberg. Our theme song is Waves by my band Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please share this podcast and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a difference. I am determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so please spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.