Chris Luzniak: 0:02

And at the end, when we debriefed the lesson, the teacher said, that girl who shared first has never spoken all year in my class. But she several times raised her hand and wanted participate because she suddenly felt comfortable. She suddenly has a voice. Every side in a debate has some kernel of truth, and I want to hear more about it to understand what's in their head, not just if they're right or wrong.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:22

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, so I'm just gonna come in hot and say that I think my guest might be my math ed soulmate. I say this for many reasons, the main one being that he went to school to be a Broadway star before becoming a math teacher. Like, how cool is that? And actually, I've always thought that teaching is kind of like performing, so it makes sense that today's guest is an incredible math teacher. Chris Luzniak, guys! That's who it is! The king of debate in math class and host of the Debate Math Podcast. And what, you might ask, does debate have to do with math class? How can getting kids more comfortable with public speaking in low pressure scenarios help prevent math anxiety? And what is the secret to changing someone's mind? Well, stay tuned because Chris is about to tell all and if you disagree with any of it, you'll just have to go on his podcast. Chris. Welcome to the podcast. Um, I, our listeners should probably know that we've been now speaking for about half an hour already all our gold has already been unrecorded, so now we're going to have to repeat it all.

Chris Luzniak: 1:51

It's a pleasure to be here. Glad to finally be recording with you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:55

Oh my god, he's acting so professional. He's like, and now I'm going to say something normal. Yeah. Thank you. Um, okay. Well, I'm just going to pick up where we left off of what we were talking about, because now I want to know about it and everyone should know. So, the last thing you just said before we got rudely cut off by David telling me to stop yelling into the microphone was that you have a joint theatre and math degree. Can I just hear about this and like, why?

Chris Luzniak: 2:17

Yeah, I didn't fully finish the theater, but I went to college for theater originally because I mean, I was good at math in high school, but what do you do with a math degree? And, you know, I had teachers who lectured at me and I memorized things and I got the A and just moved on with my life, but like, I wasn't going to be a, what does a math major do? Right? Um, but theater is really fun and exciting and it was like a hobby of mine. So, I went to college for that, and then I took a math class in college with a professor who kind of had like a flipped classroom where we did some teaching ourselves calculus at home and then doing problems at the board kind of like Building Thinking Classrooms, but like 20 some years ago, this was.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:52

Wow, dropping Building Thinking Classrooms, it's been one minute of the interview.

Chris Luzniak: 2:56

But this is before all of that, right? This is like

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:58

Yeah.

Chris Luzniak: 2:59

2000. Um, and it was so fun to learn math that way. And like everything suddenly clicked and made sense. And we were challenged. And I was like, I want to take more classes with you, like this professor, and being a liberal arts college, there wasn't a lot of people in the math program, so it was very easy to have one on one time with our professors. And I just kept taking more math classes and I switched to a math degree. And I, and then I went to grad school for math after that. Like, I just loved, I fell in love with math and I didn't fully finish the theater degree. Like I have a minor or something in it. I don't even remember. Um, but I took most of the classes for it cause I still loved it. But, uh, yeah, so I have a dual passion of theater and math.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:31

Okay, I have so many questions, none of which were on my list. But the first is when you, I'm just curious, when you were going to take your theatre degree, were you like, I'm going to be on Broadway. Like, what did you want? Like you said, there's nothing you can do with a math degree. So, okay, that's what you were

Chris Luzniak: 3:43

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was like singer, dancer, actor, like auditioning at colleges when I was in a senior year of like, you know, doing, songs and dance audition things to get into the musical theater programs, things like that. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:54

Oh my God. Well, we're right now watching Only Murders in the Building. Have you seen it?

Chris Luzniak: 3:58

Of course. Yeah. Season three.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:59

So yeah, so I'm just thinking of everything right now,"which of the pick wick triplets did it?" know, like that.

Chris Luzniak: 4:06

That is such great catchy song. Yeah, I mean, that's also why I ended up in New York City. Like I taught math for almost a decade in New York City, but I, friends of mine were moving there to do theater and I had developed a math and education kind of pathway on the side. So I still wanted to go to New York with them. So, uh, I taught in New York and then I went to Broadway shows in the evenings. It was great.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:25

Okay, so your, your whole thing that like I really wanted to talk to you about was debate in math class. So we're going to talk about what that actually means. But I'm wondering like. It must be, like, I always think about this. You kind of said that the reason you fell back in love with math, or even fell in love with it to start with, was because of a teacher. You loved, like, his style. He was doing Peter Liljedahl, while Peter Liljedahl in the 2000s was probably, like, still in his canoe, like, not even knowing that he wanted to use a whiteboard. Fine. Um, and you loved that. So, like, that teacher made such a difference. But for you, like, that is such a unique skill set to bring into a classroom because it must be so incredible to have that, like, ability to perform while teaching. Like, how do you think that kind of helps you be such an engaging teacher?

Chris Luzniak: 5:11

Ooh, that's complicated. Cause when I teach, I mean, I'm not teaching this year, but I want it to be about the students, not about me. Versus like, if I'm on stage, I want it to be about me, right? Me and look at my skills. So, um, but it helps like those background skills help in like the improv way and the like, how to like um, read the audience way that like, I can see what's happening and I kind of keep things moving. Like people notice when they come to observe my classroom, like things keep moving, kids are always busy doing different things. And I, I can sense when it's like, we spent enough time on this problem. Let's like, either talk about the answer or move on to something else. Like it just like, it keeps flowing. And so like that, those kinds of like softer skills or background skills, I think, really kick in when I, when I'm in front of a group or working with a group.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:54

That's such a cool way to think about it, because I was totally just thinking about you in the spotlight, but what a cool way to flip it around to be like, no, like one of my greatest skills is being able to like, read the room and react to the audience. And like, what could possibly be more student centered than that? Right? Like, I feel like, you know, this is a podcast about math trauma, and one of the things I often talk about is that, like, you're not going to go up to every student and be like, hey, do you have trauma? Like, what someone do to hurt you? But, like, to build those active listening or observational skills so that you can spot signs. So, like, I feel like that's actually so cool that you're using that skill in a way of being like, how is my audience reacting? How do I have to change my approach as a teacher? And that kind of stuff. And now I'm thinking about, I want to hear about this debate in math class thing. How did it start? Because this really plays in for me. I'm just thinking about you as a performer, watching the audience and like encouraging debate. So tell me about it.

Chris Luzniak: 6:47

Yes, so before I was in the theater, um, I had a teacher in high school, English teacher who convinced me to join speech and debate team at school. And I was a somewhat introverted, pretty shy, nerdy freshman. Um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:06

I can't see it.

Chris Luzniak: 7:07

And well, when I did speeches and competition, like I suddenly came out of my shell, like it was like my, like 10 minutes to like perform my thing. And then I sat back down. Right. But like, when I'm on, I was on and I suddenly, it just like kicked in in me like this, like passion for like, I want to be up there and performing and doing things and talking to people. And it like brought me out of my shell. A million times over. Like I, I can remember in like elementary school, I never wanted to talk in class at all. Like I just never felt comfortable no matter how much I knew the answer or whatever. Like I wouldn't, I was someone who wouldn't raise my hand when I was younger.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:36

Why?

Chris Luzniak: 7:37

I, just too shy. I don't know. I just didn't feel like I had enough to contribute or I just wasn't comfortable for some reason. And, speech and debate, like, changed my whole perspective of like what I can do or how, my confidence level and all these things. And so, yeah, so that, that led me to theater and all that stuff down the road. And so when I was teaching, in New York City, my first couple of years, I was also coaching speech and debate. I started a team at the school that I was at. And I noticed that after school kids never wanted to leave my room. They wanted to read really like dull articles about like healthcare policy or, you know, like foreign affairs, whatever, um, cause they wanted to win the debate that coming weekend when we went to the competition, right. Or they wanted to practice the speech they wrote with me over and over again. And I was like, why is like this so compelling for kids? And why is math class a place where they just kind of, you slouch down, you know, hide in the back and just kind of only spoke if, if they're forced to. And so I tried to merge those two worlds and just playing with a lot of ideas around student discourse. And then also just asking questions that are more debatable than just what's the answer, but like, what's, what's the best method for going this, or what might be your first step, or looking at two incorrect answers and being like, who has the coolest mistake here? And just getting things where like, there's an opinion behind it and math wasn't just cold and about getting the answers anymore. And suddenly I saw kids start to lean in and say, I want to share my thought on this, because I'm asking for their opinions, we know teenagers are full of opinions, they share their ideas. And so when I flipped that and made math more about sharing your ideas about things, kids really wanted to talk. And so this is what I do now with teachers. When I work with teachers, like. I work with them to build classroom routines and questions and activities where students are sharing their opinion, maybe not all the time, but at least parts of classes here and there to get the culture to shift from answer getting to like really leaning in and talking about your ideas.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:30

I'm obsessed with this. Okay, so I'm obsessed with this. So, to, uh, my first question is, what did you learn in, in your speech and debate experience that, like, all of a sudden shifted your perspective to being like, I'm really comfortable talking and sharing my opinion. Like, what were some of the core skills? Because like, we're always like, I do this, I'm like, just don't be afraid to take a risk. That's not like a skill though.

Chris Luzniak: 9:50

Yeah, I just learned by doing it a bunch of times, my comfort and confidence really grew and I just have to do it. Like, I can't do it once and be like, I'm, I got over my public speaking fear. Right. But if I it every weekend or every other weekend or whatever, uh, it becomes more comfortable and the more I do it. And so I want in my classroom, my students to do the same thing. I want them to talk, once, twice a week, at least, right? Like maybe every class, if I, if I could, depends how big my classes are and where I'm teaching, but like, can it become a routine that like once or twice every week they have to like share with each other, share with the whole class, share with a small group, whatever size of audience we're working with. But I want it to be comfortable and it only becomes comfortable if you repeat, repeat, repeat.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:33

Hmm. Like consistency. Like, even when you're working out, it's more important to just be consistent than to like lift heavy weights once a week, right? Like consistency, consistency. So what you're saying about repetition, I love that. But I'm also wondering, like, is there, I, I've actually never like done any sort of structured debate, waiting for someone to have me on their podcast so I can do it.

Chris Luzniak: 10:53

Okay. I got the hint. I got the hint.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:55

We'll talk about that shortly. What I'm wondering is, can you tell me like how debate works? Cause you have a podcast where you have adults debating mathematical ideas and concepts, but you also do it in class. Are there like rules? Like, how does it work?

Chris Luzniak: 11:10

Well, I'd say it depends how formal you're being. If I have like a five minute warm up question with students at the beginning of class, and I'm just like, what's the best pizza topping or, you know, what's the best method for solving this problem, whatever it is, it's quick. And it's just like you get your 30 seconds to kind of share your idea. And I have a little structure around it. I use some sentence stems, like"my claim is, my warrant is", um, but on that like low key level, it's just about like a quick, you know, 20 seconds in the spotlight, share your ideas and someone else goes. But it's about one person talking, that's like, that's the only rule and everyone else just listening and practicing our listening skills. But as I get bigger, like if I do a project with a class where we're going to have like a full debate for like a whole day, or on my podcast, when I get adults together and they have different viewpoints and we're all going to debate, there is a structure to it, which if you're, when you're on in the future,

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:58

But like, tell briefly what it is.

Chris Luzniak: 12:00

Yeah, I mean, I just do a simple, like everyone gets an opening statement and then we have a questioning round. And then there's a closing round where you kind of summarize your main points one last time. But for me, the opening statements is the most important because everyone gets their 2 minutes to say whatever they want and to like, kind of start their case. It's kind of like, you know, in, uh, in a courtroom, kind of like the opening statements there. And then the questioning round is where my host and I just ask questions, and we just have a conversation, because I want to hear more about some of the things you said, or I want to talk about some things that didn't come up in your opening statement, because you can't fit everything you want to say in 2 minutes, but you like, your 2 minutes is like you set the tone and say what you really want to get across. We'll casually talk through things in the questioning round. And we say to all our guests, like, I really believe both sides have something to share. And so the questions, there's no gotchas in the questions. We just want to know, like, can you say more about that? We don't come out with like, but what about this? Right. We're not, we're not cross-examining someone.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:53

You're not being a reply guy. Did I use that right?

Chris Luzniak: 12:57

I don't know what that means.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:59

Okay, David is shaking his head. Never mind, go on.

Chris Luzniak: 13:02

I want people to be comfortable and I want to hear them out. I, I really believe at least in almost every debate we have and most debates I have in life that both sides are seeing things, uh, with truth, like we have some misunderstandings or some different goals in mind. That's why we really debate. Like, you know, the, um, like on social media you see all the time, like the cylinder, like if I look from one end, it's a circle, but if you look from the side, it's a, it's a rectangle.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:24

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I've seen that.

Chris Luzniak: 13:25

We both see like different shapes, right? But we're both right. Like, we're just like, I'm viewing things with this lens or with this goal in mind. Like I want to get my kids to pass the state exams. Like that's different than what you want to do, if you want them to feel comfortable with learning math is, you know, we have different goals at different moments. And so I want to hear them all out. Cause there's points to be made on all sides. And so I don't want, I want everyone to feel comfortable. I just want to dwell in that gray area in the middle we talk about a lot, where there is no right or wrong, it's just shades of gray.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:55

Do you think there's something to the structure of it? Because it's like I'm imagining you starting your class, a lot of teachers try to do this, right, of just being like so, like, what's the best way to solve this problem? Versus We have five minutes. Everyone has 20 seconds, what's the best way to solve this problem? Like, is there something about the structure of it that lends itself to kids being more like willing to share? Cause they know that it's going to follow a format. They know that like, is there something there?

Chris Luzniak: 14:22

Yeah. I would say it's two things. It's the fact that you're asking for an opinion, not the answer. So even if I don't know how to do that, I can give an opinion of like, I might do this first, like, and just throw something out there. So it's easier to join the conversation. And then I have, like I said, I have the sentence frame,"my claim is my warrant is".

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:38

What does that mean? Like explain that my claim is? My warrant, like use it.

Chris Luzniak: 14:42

My claim is dogs are the best pets, and my warrant is because they're so cuddly. And,

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:49

Ohhhh.

Chris Luzniak: 14:50

So warrant means reason, it's just a fancy, I took it from the debate world. Like warrant means reason. Um, it's just a, an old fashioned word for reason. But I, I also tell teachers all the time when I work with them, I lucked onto this. I was just playing with different sentence frame ideas. The word warrant is something special, and claim even too, because it's not part of the students' everyday vocabulary.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:11

It's like, fancy.

Chris Luzniak: 15:13

Yeah, so if you ask them to say like,"I think because", it becomes a lot more like informal and it becomes like almost personal when people reply like in the opposite side of things. But when you say"my claim, my warrant", it sounds like this fancy thing, that's like really just you're throwing an idea out there and people are attacking the idea and not the person.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:30

I love this! I'm always going on about how language is so important, but it's like every day I realize I didn't even realize how important language was or like in what context, like even this tiny little thing can like shift. So, okay. Oh my God. I have like three questions, which one am I going to ask first? My first one actually is this. With what you're saying, but also with a lot of like ideas educators have of like new frameworks and things to do, I find that one thing we, we almost like take for granted is the relationship building that needs to happen before you can do something like this. Right? Like, so I was, I was wondering about that. You know, if you were giving advice to educators and you were like, go do this claim warrant stuff, yay. Would you be like, but first there's some stuff you have to do. Like, are there, is there relationship building? Do you have to teach conflict resolution? Like, do you need to make sure it's a safe space? Like, how do you do those things?

Chris Luzniak: 16:17

Uh, that's complicated because any, ways to build relationships are different from teacher to teacher and even from year to year and different students. Yes, all of that's true. Like, I need to create a comfortable environment where they feel safe to share their ideas. But I say, I like, start the year with debate, and relationship building at the same time. And they're kind of working hand in hand. Like I think making them a little uncomfortable about having them share out the first or second day of class, um, opens them up to a little bit of vulnerability, but like I do it in a loving, careful way. And so the, I want them to know that they, their voice is valued, and, um, it's okay to be uncomfortable in this class. But I, I'm here to support you and only say positive things about this, uh, when you share out. And like, I start debate with like best pizza topping, best ice cream,

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:00

Like chill stuff.

Chris Luzniak: 17:01

Like, we're not even talking about math because math anxiety could, could heighten the level of someone's stress. But if I ask you to talk about, you know, the best video game or the best musician. You have an opinion and it's okay to share. And even just share in like a, in a partner format, like a pair share or in a small group, like just each, each person in your group share with each other, like, what's your, what's the best ice cream flavor? And my claim is, my warrant is, just get that practice down and then we'll build up to like, talking in front of the class, maybe.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:26

Mh hmm. So it's funny, you brought up math anxiety and this podcast is called Math Therapy. So it's very much about that, like how do we spot anxiety? How do we deal with it? How do we manage it? How do we help kids overcome it? And I want to go back to what you just said about being like, well, first I ask, you know, about chill things that have nothing to do with math. Otherwise, math anxiety might, and then we didn't finish the sentence because I started laughing. So can we, can we go back to that? Like. Tell me what you mean and what power you think debate might have, because I think it could be such a powerful tool in helping kids overcome previous math trauma.

Chris Luzniak: 17:59

Yeah. so like I said, first, I don't start with math. Because if you just say, I want you to speak, and that student has a fear of public speaking, and talk about math, that is, could be like be beyond their threshold, like tenfold, right? It is so stressful to do that, but if I'm just like, I want you to speak about ice cream, that's a great way to get into it. But then when we start talking about math, it's very gently and just like, Hey, what do you think is the best method for this? Or, here's like two mistakes I made on this problem. Which one is the better mistake, whatever the coolest mistake, whatever that means. Right. Um, which I love. Cause then they're, when I do a best mistake debate, I love that because then they say the best mistake is that, and they're valuing mistakes in my class, which is a whole nother layer of awesomeness that happens. Um, what was your question?

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:43

Well, I also was like so unfair. I was like, I didn't even ask him a question. So, no, that, so that, good. You're like, you were just talking about how you bring up like basically a non curricular topic to get them talking. And then you like wean into math. And I, my, my real question is, What power do you think debate in math class has in helping kids work through their math anxiety and their math trauma?

Chris Luzniak: 19:05

A, a lot. I don't have like researched answers, but I can say like, from experience

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:09

You don't need a, this is not a research podcast in case that wasn't very clear.

Chris Luzniak: 19:14

Screw that. Uh, no, uh, um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:18

Just from your experience, like, have you seen it transform anyone?

Chris Luzniak: 19:21

Yeah. I think there's something about asking about the process and not the answer. Like the students don't feel like they have to be correct. And so students are more eager to jump in. And I, like, I work a lot with teachers now as a consultant. And I just think about, like, a couple months ago, I was working with some teachers, and they asked me to model debate in their class. So I just, we went in, we planned a lesson ahead of time, and then I went in and taught it, and the first thing I did was ask a debate question about, about something, I can't remember, a slope or something. Um, you know, a girl raised her hand and shared out, some more people shared out. And at the end, when we debriefed the lesson, the teacher said, that girl who shared first has never spoken all year in my class. But she several times raised her hand and wanted participate because she suddenly felt comfortable, she suddenly has a voice. She doesn't have to know the answer, but she has some opinion about things, and so she can talk about it. And then maybe, hopefully, as a teacher, she's going to learn it as we talk about it, because she's not just being passive and ignoring me anymore, right? She's engaged in the learning a little bit, which is my goal.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:20

And I would like imagine so many amazing things could come from this because it's like, once that girl is talking, she's more likely to talk or raise her hand when she has an actual question about something. You know what I mean? It's like now her voice is being valued in the classroom. She's broken the ice and she's already used it. It's like the gateway drug, like debate is the gateway drug to actually like

Chris Luzniak: 20:40

To joining math class.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:41

Yeah. Like I think it's very, cool.

Chris Luzniak: 20:43

And I was gonna say, like, I think a lot of it is students come in thinking math is like black and white, and there's like this, this desired answer and the desired method that you want, and there's no, like, options, and there's, there's no openness to it. And, uh, so debate helps them see that like, I'm not looking for you to say seven and then I can give you a sticker and we can move on. I'm looking to hear your thoughts and like that is much more engaging for students and much more manageable for them to join in and not feel like anxious about, do I have the right answer or am I, am I good at math or am I dumb? You know, that kind of like black and white polarized thing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:19

Well, and that's so, so I'm like such a big proponent of the fact that like, cool, I want kids to learn math, I do. But I also think that the most important thing that can come out of math class is the belief that you are capable of more than you thought you were. Because so many kids go into math class with a deficit perspective, because they've been told at some point that they can't do math in the traditional sense of like getting the right answer quickly, whatever. So, like, to me, I'm like, one skill, we were talking about this when we weren't recording, one skill that I think the world, we can both agree the world needs now more than ever is the ability to hear different opinions, to actively listen, to be open minded, to feel like you can speak your mind while also not just teaming up with one side because we're so polarized. And like what an incredible way to build that skill in math class in a place where people are already scared. Like, I'm just, like, so fascinated by all the, like, rich work you're doing. Because I would imagine that, like, kids leave your math class being like, well, this is how you, you engage with, this is how you communicate. Like, you listen to people, you sometimes see two sides of a story.

Chris Luzniak: 22:29

Yes, I will say, uh, when I'm, modeling a lesson in teacher's classrooms and stuff, one of the biggest feedback comments I get from teachers is you're a really good listener. Like, I think all the time, like we're so listening for the right answer, and I'm just listening to the student and like, what is it, you know, or don't know. And like, think about like, uh, if you have a square with a side of four and ask for the area, you say 16, you might have been counting the perimeter. Right? Like I, 16 doesn't mean you're right. So it's like say more to me first. Right? Um, Or like I did this, with a student. I said something like what's 10 plus 10, some younger students, and they said, uh, eight. And instead of shutting them down saying you're wrong, I was just like, Oh, so tell me how you got that. And they're like, well, 10 o'clock plus 10 hours is eight because we had been talking about time, like kind of on a tangent, but her mind was still on that. And so instead of shutting her down and being like, you're right, you're wrong. I'm just like, tell me about your thinking. And she was totally right. 10 plus 10 is eight when you're talking about time in some, some sense. And so I go back to my point. Like, I think every side in a debate has some kernel of truth, something that they're, they're getting at. And I want to hear more about it to understand what's in their head, not just if they're right or wrong. And I think we're, this world just, everyone just wants to be right or wrong. I want to be in the right, right political party. I want to be in the right group. I want to go to the right college, like all these right things. And it's like, just, just enjoy life and the complications of it. And I, we're getting further from that as we get more polarized.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:57

So, this is the thing I really wanted to talk about because I've also noticed as, you know, we're both podcasters, you have guests on, you engage in discussion, I am on social media all the time talking about things. I, I know everyone's noticed this, but I, like, when I tell my friends, when I'm like, oh my god, I'm getting all these like, crazy, I just got two new comments today on my Instagram post. Can I read them to you? My post was, my post was about, um, whether we should memorize math facts or not. Comment number one:"oh my god, you're today's winner of the dumbest idea on the internet". And then let me tell you the second comment,"girl, shut up". The reason I bring that up is when I tell my friends this, they're like, wait, about math? And I'm like, yes. I'm like, like, you know, they're used to the, you know, the polarized things you see on the internet about like, juicier stuff, politics racism, sexism, climate don't know. And they're like, wait, about the times tables? And I'm like, yes, because it's literally everywhere. Like it's literally everywhere. And I think about like your students having opinion, like take social media out of it, your students having opinions on the best way to solve a problem or the fact that they get the wrong answer. And they are probably actually used to thinking. Well, I'm going to be shut, I'm going to be told I'm fucking stupid. Like, this girl just told me to shut up on the internet. Like, that's probably what they're expecting. So, A, you're raising a generation, like, of kids, of young people, who know not to engage with one another that way. That's the first very cool thing. But how do we, reconcile the fact that even though we might be technically or visibly or like, you know, objectively on the opposite side of the spectrum on someone, on an opinion, that we can still have something in common. Does that make sense? Like I, I feel like it's like, like I have a neighbor with a Confederate flag, which I, I could, I could shut that down immediately and be like, I'm never gonna speak to him. We obviously don't agree on the fact that he thinks it's okay to fly a confederate flag, but we have a ton of stuff in common and we have learned that through speaking with each other for two years and engaging in conversation and actually quite respectfully disagreeing with one another when we do and agreeing with each other when we do.

Chris Luzniak: 26:09

I love that. I wish, I wish that was what we saw in news media, the respectful disagreements. Like I disagree with you on this healthcare policy because, but I, but I understand where you're coming from. We just see people looking for soundbites and to polarize their audience quickly. So they get the votes, not a thoughtful, like well reasoned discussion. And like I was saying to you earlier, that this is, my podcast is an hour long every time, because I want to hear people out and I want them to talk through their ideas and not just give me a quick soundbite of like memorize facts or don't memorize facts. We're done. I'm like, why is that? Or what, what times would you memorize or not memorize? Like, you know, how nuanced is your answer? And, I think that makes us all better if we hear both sides out because then we can decide for ourselves what really works for us. Because every teacher is different, every district is different, school, students, right? So I don't think there's one right way to teach anything specifically, but I want you to, if you're going to do some action, do it well informed of what the different options are, the different sides would say, like why you might or why you might not do this, what good or harm each side could be doing for what you're doing for students.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:18

So, do you ever, like, get into a situation, because I feel like this would happen to me, it's not just because I'm, like, a Gemini and I can see both sides, but, like, do you ever have a situation where your two podcast guests are on different sides, and at the end, they, like, come around to agree with each other?

Chris Luzniak: 27:33

Oh, uh, yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:34

Yeah?

Chris Luzniak: 27:35

Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't say like in full agreement, but they like, they find lots of common ground sometimes, uh, sometimes, not always, But the Venn diagram like can overlap more and more as we talk about things. And this is just like your neighbor. Like the more you talk, the more you see that your Venn diagrams overlap. And I wish we all did that. And that, that's actually a lot of the work that I'm doing now is I've been researching and working with some organizations. Like, how do you actually change someone's mind? And like looking at like research and like cult mentality and

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:05

Ooh, oh my god, wait, wait, wait, wait, what? You said my, said my amazing trigger word. I love cults. What about it?

Chris Luzniak: 28:12

This is a whole nother discussion for another day. We can go on for hours. But, like, I just, like, how much people, um, once they, like, lean into something, they are more afraid to change their mind if they're going to upset their social group.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:25

Oh my god, oh my god, oh my god, have you seen the Flat Earth documentary?

Chris Luzniak: 28:29

No.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:30

No, no, no. I'm serious. What's it called? Beyond the,

Chris Luzniak: 28:33

Beyond The Curve?

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:34

Beyond The Curve. You have to, because it's all about it, and it's like, so you just said if it's going to upset their social group, and I would go one step further because what, what the guy says in there, because basically by the end of the documentary, like, they have proven to him that the world is not flat, and he's just like, I can't change my opinion on this, because, it's who I am at this point and my entire friend, like exactly my social, I would have nothing if I let go of it. Like the closer you like, um, attach an opinion to who you are, you can't let go of it. Whereas if I'm like, well, I'm this very multifaceted person, and one of the many things I believe is like, there are other ways to learn your math facts than memorize, it's easier for me to change my mind, cause that's not like my core identity.

Chris Luzniak: 29:18

For sure.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:18

So how do you change people's minds? Like, what are you finding?

Chris Luzniak: 29:22

it's a, long discussion. Um, but what you're doing with your neighbor, like that's a big part of it, like really connecting and just listening to people. I, I know from experience and from what I've been doing recently, uh, I will only change people's minds by listening to them. Um, can, I cannot, I cannot facts at them and, and make them change their mind because they've decided this for a reason, right? And then they're tied to their identity, their social group, like all these things. And so I need to listen to them and just ask about why they think that way or where that story came from, like where that belief came from. And as we unpack it together, like we can slowly, but it's, it's moving a boulder, right? We're just going to slowly nudge it a little bit along the way of getting you to be more introspective about a topic. And like, that's what my podcast is about. Like, I just want you to think about both sides a little bit more and not just have a quick answer to some of these topics.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:12

I like, wanna cry. Like, honestly, I feel very validated because I feel like, that's my approach too, like I want to just ask questions and understand. Because sometimes the reasoning behind why you think something is not at all what I thought it was, you know? And like even in the math, like the math education world, like I'm sure a lot of people listening to this are like, this probably really resonates because it's so polarized and people want to take sides. I think that comes from a place of fear of being like, well, I just have to like, pick one side or like they're going to, like, I've, I will just say I've personally felt very bullied, in a way, by people being like, well, you're either with us or you're against us, like pick. Whereas I'm like, well, no, like I agree with a little bit of column A and a little bit of column B. And like, I think that comes from fear. And I actually think it's rooted like psychologically in like our tribal nature. Like when we used to literally like have enemy tribes after us. So like to, to notice that is really important, but what you said, that idea of being like, until you understand where a person's coming from, you can't change their mind. But also a big thing I've been learning, like I do a lot of like Deepak Chopra meditation, and a lot of his philosophy is to not be attached to outcome, to not feel like you ever need to change someone's mind. You don't, right? Like it's important to listen, it's important to be able to state your opinion, but in most cases, like the people you're arguing with or whatever, like, that doesn't need to be your goal to change your mind, nor are you like this martyr that's going to change their mind necessarily. So when you can like let go of that, sorry, now this is just a podcast about me, I've not let you speak in one minute, in like 10 minutes, but wait, there's one thing I was going to, I'm leading up to is what I was going to say is I actually really believe that most people in math education are very well intentioned. So like

Chris Luzniak: 31:56

Oh, 100%. I believe all teachers mean the best. That is my default belief.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:01

Same. Like, maybe you don't believe in the way someone's teaching or whatever it is, but it's like, if you can at least look at that being like, they're doing this because they believe it's best for kids. If we could start with that foundation, I feel like the discussions would be so much more, like, fruitful.

Chris Luzniak: 32:16

Yes. We'd have to be more vulnerable though, as, as humans and be okay getting feedback and criticism and told like this part isn't working for the student. And like, I don't know, we also need more time and space as teachers to reflect on all these things and we're, I, yeah, there's no time.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:33

Well, like, we're gonna have to wrap up, but I have to ask you one last I'm asking you one last thing, and then I'm going into the final two questions.

Chris Luzniak: 32:39

Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:40

So, I've, like, lately been, like, I kind of want to do a season of the podcast where I'm like Joe Rogan but like for math education and like I only have people on that I like fundamentally right now don't agree with. Do you think that's a bad career move?

Chris Luzniak: 33:00

What the hell, Vanessa, I can't, I can't give you career advice.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:06

Do you think that's a bad, because we were talking about this. People are always like, don't give people platforms who you don't agree with, or like who are doing something harmful, but I agree with you in that, like, it's not like I'm going to let them just monologue on the podcast. I want to understand where they're coming from and I'd like to debate with them as well.

Chris Luzniak: 33:20

Yeah, I, I mean, I get a little pushback sometimes with some of the things we want to debate and like, you know, we, we shouldn't give those people time and space to share this idea. Like you shouldn't memorize math facts or whatever, right? Like we shouldn't have them on, but I, but again, I think there's a kernel of truth in both sides and I want to hear them out and I think everything online gets reduced to a soundbite and so I want to hear them out. I just like, the great thing about mine is we have two sides on a debate. So I have someone to counter something that I might not agree with to bring out the other side of things. And so I want the audience to think for themselves. I want to just put it all out there. But I feel like if we just keep ignoring things, it just kind of festers and grows, some of these ideas, especially with the internet and social media. Many of your listeners think flat earth is silly, right, but, but if we never like, talk about it or talk to those people, they'll just keep like in their bubble and like festering and getting angrier and spreading to more angry people. And so like, I, I think it's important to give space as long as you're like hearing multiple sides.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:23

And if you are a flat earther listening to the podcast, we would love to have you on. So, get in touch with us. I would love that. Okay, we need to move on to the final two questions. Okay?

Chris Luzniak: 34:35

Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:36

Final two questions. What is the one thing you'd like to see change about the way math is taught in schools?

Chris Luzniak: 34:42

I only get one?

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:43

Yep.

Chris Luzniak: 34:44

Um, I want to change the standards, the curriculum. We pack too much in, we race to calculus for no reason, like it is. At least in the U. S. I don't know exactly how it all goes in Canada. I have some idea. But like, it is just jam packed with stuff that we don't need for any reason. We, we carry phones and calculators in our pocket. We don't need to like, memorize all these formulas and things. Like, let's make math much more relevant and interesting and update it a lot.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:15

Love it. Okay. And finally, what do you say to someone who's like, but Chris, I'm just not a math person.

Chris Luzniak: 35:24

Uh, there's no such thing. I, I mean, people say that, yes, but there's no such thing as not a math person. What does that mean? Like you don't know how to count to five. You don't see patterns in your life. Like what, what, what does that mean? I, of course you're a math person. You may not have been a good school math person for the teachers you had, cause they wanted you to do things a certain way and memorize things a certain way or do things, you know, specifically in one method, but, we're all like, I'm a big escape room enthusiast

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:52

Oh my god, I love an escape room.

Chris Luzniak: 35:54

I've gone to over a hundred now and we're counting. Um, getting involved in some escape rooms locally and stuff too, but, uh, I love them. And a lot of the people that I've met in the community, like don't see themselves as math people, but I'm like, all you're doing is looking for patterns and like decoding things. Like this is math, but this is where I see the curriculum and the standards have failed, because we've told them that math is memorizing this encyclopedia of formulas, not the reasoning and problem solving that we really want.

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:22

Okay. All right. We have to say goodbye soon, but tell us, can you do, no, no. Can tell us, like, give us, what do you want people to know, see, look you up, like do all those things. So I

Chris Luzniak: 36:32

Yeah. Come find me. Um, easiest way is just my last name, Luzniak.Com, L U Z N I A K. On social media, I'm@cluzniak on like Instagram, Twitter or X or whatever the heck that is, Blue Sky, all those things. I have a workshop about debate math on Grassroots Workshop. I have a book Up For Debate, um, that you can find on Amazon or anywhere like just come talk to me. I work with schools and districts now and send me an email. Let's just talk. I I'd love to talk about math with anyone and, watch how debate can change your classroom.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:02

Oh my god, oh my, like what an amazing episode. okay. Thank you so much for being on the pod. Had the best time and goodbye.

Chris Luzniak: 37:14

Goodbye. love you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:16

Love you.

David Kochberg: 37:16

Great job. Great job saying goodbye.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:22

Oh my God, guys, I'm obsessed with Chris. Like, I'm sorry, but now I need to go argue with someone about something immediately. Also, do we need a part two about cults? Because literally, if one person says yes, I will do it. I honestly think that the idea of fostering debate vibes in math class is one of the most underrated ideas and I'm so excited for you guys to try it. Also, I really want to fight, respectfully, with someone on Chris's Debate Math podcast, and Dan Meyer already said no to me, so who should it be, and what topic should we fight about? DMs are officially open, let me know, and let's get this show on the road. if something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.