Dr. India White: 0:02

The reason why people feel like they're not a math person is because they've had some type of trauma or some type of negative experience. You might not be a rocket scientist. But you're still a math person. And if you had the right teacher, you would have been able to build that confidence even more. But even if you don't have the right teacher, hang out with people like me, and we'll build your confidence over time. You'll be just fine.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:22

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, hello! I have a treat for you today. Her name is Dr. India White, and she's an expert on grit in the classroom. She's legit TED Talk famous, and our interview was so inspiring. I don't know about you, but lately I feel like the concept of grit has been totally misused, turned into a classroom poster and left for kids to figure out how to action themselves without any direction. But India defines grit in such a unique and inspiring way, and it's rooted in resilience. We also discuss how it feels to be tokenized or dismissed as a minority, and how equity is about so much more than just race, and finally, how surprisingly easy it is to get a doctorate. Also, I feel like this needs a disclaimer that I'm not advising you to get a fake doctorate, but like, I may get one myself. I haven't decided yet. Okay! Have fun!

Dr. India White: 1:37

Oh my god, this is this whole thing is going to be you by the end of it. I'm like, I'm signing up for my PhD. Go for it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:43

I just want someone to give it to me. Like, you know how they

Dr. India White: 1:45

You can pay for that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:47

like,

Dr. India White: 1:47

Just pay, I think it's$450. People pay for fake doctorates all the time. Find a university, and then they'll have like some kind of like honorarium, doctorate form that you fill out. And then you pay$450, whatever, and you have a doctorate. Congratulations.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:03

Fuck right off. What are you

Dr. India White: 2:05

All those doctorates. When I got my doctorate, I had about four people apply for doctorates. Um, just so that they could say I'm doctor too, I, hey, I'm doctor too. Go for it. Go be a doctor, go apply. I thought to get a fake doctorate, maybe in business or something, because, you know, I'm so busy out here, but I a doctorate in business. So, you know, I can get another doctorate or, hey, if I want five doctorates just pay for it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:27

This seems really inexpensive. This sounds like the most American thing I've ever

Dr. India White: 2:30

Look it up. I'm so serious.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:32

I'm going to look it up.

Dr. India White: 2:33

They call them honorary doctorates. And you do a ceremony and everything. The only thing is

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:38

No, shut up

Dr. India White: 2:38

I'm not lying. They do a ceremony for you. They give you a robe, everything, like you actually went through school for four years at a university, and they honor you. And the reason why they do honorary doctorates, I think like Missy Elliot or someone had an honorary doctorate, the reason why they do it is because they understand like certain people are in the field and they're famous, they're the experts, they're good at what they do, and they don't have time to go to school because they're so busy servicing everybody else. So they say, well, you deserve a doctorate. Some people really do like some people they serve 25 years, 30 years, they've gotten great results. Okay, great. Like for instance, if you give Mark Zuckerberg a doctorate in information sciences, probably well deserved. Um, you know, Oprah, doctorate in media, something like that. But there are some people who have served in fields for maybe two years, but they're like, eh, I want a doctorate too, shoot, you know, well then, go, go get one, 450 dollars, you can get a doctorate. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:34

The best part about this is, we've not even started our interview and I feel like you're already doing what you do best. Like, I literally came on here, I said I wanted something, and in five minutes or less, you've told me exactly how get it.

Dr. India White: 3:47

Yeah! That's it. That's why I'm here. Here to help.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:52

It's, this is so fucking funny. I

Dr. India White: 3:54

Hey, we could get doctorates together. You want to apply?

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:56

Let's get them. Like,

Dr. India White: 3:58

Hey, I want a doctorate in business.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:01

In business and I want one in therapy. Okay. And we'll do like a whole photo shoot. Okay. I love this. So this is happening. Great. How are you so good at this? How have you already convinced me of what I need with my life?

Dr. India White: 4:11

I don't know. I think, well with the honorary doctorate thing. I think everybody's been in that boat of, Oh, I want a doctorate, you know, but I really did some research because, you know, and then of course, you know, after getting a real doctorate and going through that, whoa, I saw a lot of people that were like, you know what, we saw what you went through and no thanks, so, where's the easy way out? So, I don't know, I think just from experience and hearing people's stories.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:36

Okay. But you are, I mean, you're an author, you're a speaker, you're an educational consultant, and you're a coach. And I feel like you have literally just coached me. I want to kind of talk about this, I feel like you're doing so much in the educational space, and I really don't know you, and literally within three minutes, I'm like, oh, my God, like, you are actually a superhero. You've like simplified this great big thing and just factually told me how to get it. You've made me feel not bad about paying 450 dollars and for everyone's going to call me doctor by the time this episode comes out. So how do you like, what, what is your role in doing this in education? Who are you coaching and what are you coaching them about?

Dr. India White: 5:14

So after spending many years in the classroom, and knowing that I had the it, I had something, but I just couldn't really pinpoint it. Um, I was like, well, maybe I'm just good with kids cause I just know how to communicate. Or maybe I just know how to have a good relationship. But then it was deeper than that. When I started to see students that had level one test scores come back to me with level three, level four, level five, level five, level five, level four, level five, level, and it was just like, okay, it's deeper than that then. It's not just relationships, I'm actually able to further results, um, and help people get what they want. And I think it's because I understand how to teach and how to motivate and uplift students, teachers, and principals. And so it spilled out from just the classroom to actually teaching teachers, because I had a wonderful principal in Hillsborough County in Tampa, and he was like, India, I see more than you, you know, you just staying behind these four walls. You need to be out there. Like there's more to you than just this. And the look in his face, he was dead serious and I was like, Hmm, maybe I need to give this a shot, but what does that look like? But I knew that, through teaching grit, teaching how to be passionate about what you want, and then of course, removing limitations and barriers. Because I don't think it's fair that we need to go through life feeling like we have oppression on us or feeling like we can't evolve into some great superstar, which all of us have in us, we should not feel that we have to be limited by someone else or by someone else's opinion or by some mistake we made in our past. We should not live in fear, we need to live beyond that. We need to walk in faith, we need to walk in greatness and we need to own our greatness and own our purpose and fulfill our purpose through grit. So my thing is, I know I have the tools, the resources, the research, and the experience to come alongside wonderful teachers, principals, superintendents, to really help develop and motivate students through grit and also through implementing equitable math practices in particular, to close the achievement gap. So that's my purpose.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:26

I'm like so fired up. I feel like I'm going to like cry, but I'm also like really excited. Like, I don't know what I'm even feeling right now, but other than like, I believe you. And I, I have a question. Like, so you've mentioned grit and equitable practices multiple times. Can you define what equitable practices mean to you and what grit means to you?

Dr. India White: 7:46

So NCTM did a wonderful job back in 2000 and they said that equity is when a leader provides reasonable, um, accommodations and supports to students as needed to promote access and attainment for all learners. And so what that says is that I'm going to meet that student where they are and provide the services that they need, no matter if they're deaf and hard of hearing, no matter if they are a student with a disability, if they are emotionally, if they are visually impaired, if they are dealing with trauma, if they are two years behind, if they have a various linguistic or cultural backgrounds, I am going to fill in the gap to make sure that all students can have those services that they need. And so when you're doing that through equitable math practices, there's so many different ways that you do this, not just math practices, you could do it in any, uh, scope of education, whether that's, you know, English class, science, whatever, by just giving them various ways of understanding and various opportunities to learn and various opportunities to express their learning and to express how they're understanding a concept. So for instance, you could do a project based learning activity around Pi Day that is also even culturally responsive, where you're tying in different ways for students to express themselves and express how they've learned the math, how they understood Pi, how they understand the background of Pi. Instead of doing a boring worksheet where you just say, okay, here's Pythagoras, okay, yeah, da da da. No, spice that baby up, okay? You're talking about Pi Day. This is one of the most important parts of math culture that we celebrate in our math classroom. Do you wanna talk to us about a specific thing that has been built in your culture around math? Then let's bring it out. That's an equitable practice. If the students are like, I don't feel comfortable learning math in just this structural, um. you know, desk and all this other stuff, can you maybe spice your room up a little bit? Can you maybe put some things on the wall where they do learning walks when they're able to go and they're able to see what each other have put on the wall and learn from each other? How are you helping your student feel comfortable as they're learning and assisting them where they are, at that specific moment. Those are just some slight examples of equitable math practices. You have so much with like cloud computing, which means you're uploading things on the cloud. You're giving students QR codes, to stimulate their interest and to give them knowledge in a way that's not just a boring worksheet.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:01

I'm listening to this and I think like, equity's gotten such a like weird, people are so weird about it. They don't understand, they think it means one thing. So as you're explaining it, I'm kind of like, okay, hold on a second. You're basically just saying like, give every student a shot.

Dr. India White: 10:16

Thank you. That's it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:17

Right? Like

Dr. India White: 10:18

This is not a racially focused thing, and I'm going go right there for the main elephant in the room. So people always emphasize equity to mean servicing black students or dealing with black issues or Hispanic issues and always highlighting race. Yes, even though race is one lens and even gender and things like that are lenses of equity, that is not the whole approach when you're dealing with equity in the area of education. When you're talking about equity and education, you are talking about this student needs to learn 1 plus 1 equals 2. What resources do we have at the table today that will help them learn 1 plus 1 equals 2. It's not that, here, let's learn about, you know, this whole different, historical, cultural thing that has nothing to do with this particular lesson, no. And I'm not knocking culture and I'm not knocking cultural relevance. What I'm saying is put things in proper perspective and, and, and they have to stop believing that everything is indoctrination, it's not. Okay, whenever you are doing equity, you're saying, I am doing what I can as a teacher to meet the needs of that particular student each day. Do they need a pencil? Then give them a pencil, please. Do they not eat? You got some, some, you know, peanut butter crackers or something you could give'em from the, the cupboard or from the nurse? You know, did, did the kid cut themselves? Well then do you have a bandaid or a bandage where you can assist that? Those are equitable practices. It's not all race related and it's so annoying. I am African American, and yes, this is, Black History Month, I'm thankful to be African American, I love my race, but the attack of, Oh, equity is only dealing with race, it's a false narrative. And I want to, I want to dish hope for everybody here to let you know that as an educator, if you are doing equitable practices, continue to love your kids, continue to do what you know is best for your kids and learn how to chew the meat and spit out the bones whenever you're looking at certain things

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:13

What does that mean?

Dr. India White: 12:13

On in social media. So when you chew the meat and spit out the bones, say you have a piece of chicken or a piece of steak or something, you get the good part and you spit out the part you don't need. You spit out the parts that are distractions. You spit out the parts that are irrelevant, the parts that are damaging. You spit it out. That's what we have to do as we're doing this work of equity because we know we're doing what's right for students. And so we have to ignore the noise. You have to ignore everything else that is saying that we're harming someone, that it's abuse. No, it's not. When it comes down to equity in a classroom, please keep it in the right context. Some people are taking it and blowing it way out of proportion and making teachers feel like they are In handcuffs. They can't do their job. They can't love kids. They can't give a kid a pencil. They can't ask a student, hey, that's crying, hey, what's wrong with you? Is everything okay? Those are equitable practices. And so I think that it's because people aren't doing the, they're not doing their own research to realize the difference between equity and then other, you know, terminology that they've heard that is very triggering. And now equity has become a trigger word where people feel like they're being punched upside the head whenever you say the word equity, they feel like they've done something wrong. And it should have never gotten to this point, because we do equitable practices every day, whether we want to or not. Look in an airport, you go to the airport to simply check your luggage, get up the ramp, get up the escalator. The escalator is an equitable practice. An elevator is an equitable practice. So, students with disabilities that can't get up to, you know, the classroom on the stairs because they have a wheelchair, you have a ramp. When are we going to start having these right conversations? What we're doing is we are harming the experiences of students and opportunities for community leaders to even come in and support at a greater measure, whether that's fiscally or coming in and, and donating and things like that, because they're afraid because they don't want to get canceled and they don't want to, you know, be a part of this hate stuff and I don't blame them. I think it's sad that they have to now cower out in a corner because people don't understand what equity is. It's providing resources and accommodations. Why is race the pivotal part of that. It should have never gotten to that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:23

My god. I'm so

Dr. India White: 14:24

And the thing is, if you take away equitable practices, what are you going to replace it with? Okay, so you say, I don't want equity. I don't want equitable practices. Okay. Tell me what you want then. So if you don't want a student to have pencils, or, you know, they're hungry, you don't want to support them. If the student, you know, needs a ramp for the wheelchair, and you're taking away ramps now, you're not giving funding for that. Come on now, because when they cut funding, that's what they're doing. So if you're cutting that, if a student, no habla ingles, and you're cutting the funding for that student to be able to transition, what are you replacing that with? That is question.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:00

Well, what's the answer? What do people want? What are people saying?

Dr. India White: 15:02

There is no answer! There is no replacement. It's, we cut this from you, and that's it. So how are you to service, how are you going to service our babies? What are you going to do? That's my thing is how are you going to help them if you take away all of the accommodations and resources that we, we're giving our students a fair and a free and appropriate public education. If we have signed up for that, then we need to do what it takes. Seeing that parents have trusted us with their kids 8 hours plus a day. Those kids, some of them will get hungry. Some of them will mess their pants, you know, in the grades K 5, some of them will forget their pencil at home. So what are we going to do to fill in those gaps? Those are equitable practices. What are we going to do? What are we going to do to take care of schools that have safety hazards students, that have to be in environments where the students, the there's bugs and roaches and rats and all this other stuff as they learn, what are we going to do to accommodate for these kids? That that's my biggest question.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:14

First of all, I really have never looked at equity that way. Like, that's why I actually wanted to speak with you. I don't understand equity. You know, you read all the books and whatever, whatever, but I still like, I must be missing something because it's either too simplistic or I don't understand why everyone's so mad, but you've put it in such a good way. But my question is, cause as you're talking, I'm like, so what the fuck is everyone's problem? And I wonder, are you, like, into Brene Brown at all? I'm really into this like scarcity, abundance stuff. And I'm like, one of the things she talks about is like so much of our, and a lot of people talk about this, but like the idea that like, when we're trying to take stuff away from other people, when we don't want give other people stuff, it's from our own fear of scarcity. And I wonder if you think yeah, like the reason, like, I don't want these kids to have these accommodations is because I can't have, and if I can't have them, do you think there's something there?

Dr. India White: 17:05

It's a fear. It's a fear of, there's a couple of theories and I'm not saying I I'm with any of these. Um, there is one, kind of way of, seeing this that I've heard on, on the street, um, basically that says, Okay, so since we've provided these, uh, resources and accommodations, students of color or diverse students are now getting the positions that, you know, everybody else, you know, Europeans were supposed to get. And now the Europeans are out of a job or out of an opportunity because the quota has to be met to let someone of a marginalized, a diverse community come in. And so some people say that that was a buzz around why affirmative action was cut, was because some others, right, some people were afraid that if we continue to have those opportunities, then the marginalized communities are going to be our bosses. They're going to take over and they're going to have, they're going to have the wealth. And I think to be honest, I think if people stop living in fear and just did what was right by their neighbor and, um, gave everybody a fair chance. The cookies are going to crumble in an equitable and a just manner.

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:22

Yes.

Dr. India White: 18:22

We We won't have to worry about, Oh, I'm not gonna have job. If you are marketable and valuable, you'll have a job. Now, if you got a job and you weren't ever competent, karma will meet you, and you're not going to have that job anyway. Um, you know, whether or not somebody is going to take it or not, you'll, you'll eventually lose it because you're not competent. So my thing is, I think people should focus on their own sense of competency and value and, and what they bring to the table. Stop trying to pull down everybody else that they see have worked hard, that pulled themselves up from their own bootstraps or no bootstraps at all and made something out of their lives. You should be happy and proud of that person and cheering them on and saying, Hey, how can I come alongside you and support you, and is there anything I can do? And you know, the opportunities that have been afforded to me to help service you. That's what we should be thinking. We should be having a pure heart by this. I think people, they need someone to blame. It's almost like I can't get ahead because them. And it's like, wait, wait, wait, wait a second. Especially when you're talking about diverse people, especially in particular, African Americans, who built much of this country, and you're worried that they are a threat, but can we really keep it real? African Americans have never really even tapped into wealth until the 1950 ish sixties, you know? So, I mean, we've had all these other years, right. where African Americans did not have access to wealth or to building, um, their communities. And they even had times where they were attacked in their communities. Rosewood is an example of that. And so we've had attacks in the African American community, but yet African American outliers continue to bounce up and do great things. And then they're like, they even assimilate. They assimilate. They culturally assimilate to be a part of society and to be accepted and to let people know we are not a threat. We are here in peace. Can I say something on behalf of the African American community? We are here in peace. We are here in peace. Our skin color should not be a weapon. We should not walk into the room and be a threat. We should be welcomed with peace and love. And with people saying, you know what, I want to give you an opportunity and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt. And I'm going to give you a fair chance. And see you face value and not be afraid of you and not feel like, okay, now that you're here, how can I cancel you? Or now that you're here, how can I take your ideas and put my face on it? Or how can I see how I can slight you not pay you for your work? Or how can I say that you feel the stereotypical norms of being loud and brash and angry and hard to deal with and difficult? How can I instead grow beyond that and walk in love and walk in support? I don't know where we missed it, our nation in particular is really going through, I think it's, it's, it's a scary place where we really have to start looking and seeing, okay, are we going to continue to do this liberty and justice for all? Is that still going to be a part of the pledge of allegiance? Are we still going to, um, treat everybody the way we want to be treated? Like what really is going on now, America, that is the biggest question. Can I choose to go above hate and choose to love people that look different from me? I can't tell you, how many jewels and blessings I've had from people from diverse backgrounds, European, Indian, Asian, African, beautiful people that have molded me and helped me as a leader, that I would not be where I am today had I not had those wonderful, beautiful people who are still a part of my tribe today, like I would have missed out on a lot about life if I hadn't given people a fair chance.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:09

Well I hate that you had to come on my podcast and announce that you come in peace. And I hate that you felt like you had to do that, but i'm so happy you did like I'm so beyond happy you did, but I'm so sorry that like you have to. Like that fucking sucks.

Dr. India White: 22:27

It's tough. It's tough because, um, because of what people see in the media, what they hear, there's this underlying assumption that there's that angry black woman, black women just, they just something under their craw, they're just so ticked off all the time. Some of us are happy, some of us loving. Sometimes people fight you, through what their ancestors went through or like history, like, I don't know if they're trying to be noble to their grandparents, like, I don't, I don't get it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:55

you were talking about affirmative action and you're like, you know, people keep saying things like, Oh, people of color are now like, you know, in these positions only because we have affir, only because we made these accommodations. Does this ever happen to you? Cause it happens to me all the time, both in math ed or in my band where people are like, Oh, well, I saw your keynoting this thing. Like, great. I guess it really works that you're a woman of color. And I'm like, does that happen to you?

Dr. India White: 23:18

Unfortunately, yes. Um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:20

Isn't that f, oh my god I'm swearing more than I've ever sworn.

Dr. India White: 23:23

1 of the 1st times, I was a senior in high school and we had just got our acceptance letters of university. And so I had a 4. 25 GPA. I was a senior. I had 32 credits. I only needed 28 credits. I was in 13 clubs. I worked part time. And I applied to all the universities, every university I applied to, I got accepted in. Well, the one I wanted to go to was University of Florida. And so when I got my acceptance letter, go Gators, at the University of Florida, one of the students in my class says, Oh, you're going to University of Florida? Because he also got accepted to University of Florida, um, and he's a white male and he said, Oh, you got accepted, he says, must've been affirmative action. And

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:10

Oh my god I just choked myself. Ugh! What did you do, what did you say, how did you feel?

Dr. India White: 24:17

I was the only Black. So I silenced myself. I was muted. A lot of your"only Black" are seen as tokens and are seen as the only one, and so we're treated sometimes like tokens. It's horrible. Because it's like, yeah, you're in this space, but you know, it's affirmative action. Like it can't be from your own merit. That's the hurtful part, when people say stuff like that, it's like, they assume that upstairs is just empty. Like there's just some peas running around. Like, I don't have a brain to formulate thought to process stuff. So that's the only annoying part for me is like, when people are like, oh wait, you actually are smart, like, well, actually

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:58

oh my god, people say that to me all the time.

Dr. India White: 25:00

You actually got a doctorate, like a real, like a real one or,

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:05

not the one that Vanessa bought. Oh,

Dr. India White: 25:10

Drtoday.com, 450 dollars. We need to start something like that. But anyway. Um, so, you know, my thing is, just having your intelligence dismissed. Or you're black, so your work is non scholarly. You know, I've had that said too, your work is non scholarly. What do you mean, my work's not scholarly? I did the work, I did the research. So this is what Black people go through. Is you get in the space, but then it's like you're totally slighted and discredited and you go through discriminations and abuse and biases and then you're muted and then you don't have a, an advocate. So there's no one that's going to say back off of her, back off of them, don't say that to them, it's not right. And that's the hurtful part. And that is why people ask, why do certain students not break away from the fold and actually pursue a path of education? Why would they? Why would they leave their culture, and those that love them, and opportunities among their culture, to try to climb these ladders where it's lonely and it's painful. And even when you attained a doctorate, you're still seen as incompetent and that you don't know what you're doing. You're non scholarly and that you're just the token. So let's talk about that. Why, why, why the token mentality? Why can't it be, you know what, I see everyone face value, every African American, every one of a diverse background is amazing and has the competency to put out a wonderful product.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:39

It's insane. It's, the whole thing is so crazy and so wild because like, I'm listening to this and like, I am on the same page. I always have been, but what I don't understand is how anyone could listen to this and be like, well, like, what would your possible counterargument be unless you legit were like, well, I think they're dumber than white people, like literally that would have to be your argument, you literally think they're inferior.

Dr. India White: 27:02

some people, unfortunately they do have that bias.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:07

they do! It's funny because I do so much work with like women in STEM and I'm using air quotes because people are always like, well, how do we get women involved? And I'm like, what fucking teenage girl is like, Oh, I know I want to go into an industry where people are sexist and there are microaggressions and it's hard for me to, like, why would you want to do that? Like, no one wants to do that. So it's our job to make these spaces more inclusive. But, what I really want to talk to you about now, because this is like, we don't even have that much time left, but this ties in so well is like, because we've talked so much about what is, what is so beyond important. I didn't even plan to talk to you about this today. And I'm just like, I'm so glad we did because I needed to hear it and everyone needs to hear it. But one of your big things is grit, and listening to you speak, I'm like, well, no fucking shit. You've had to develop an entire practice around grit.

Dr. India White: 27:51

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:52

Tell me

Dr. India White: 27:52

about it,

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:53

go, tell me

Dr. India White: 27:54

about grit. You know, as a first generation student and, you know, learning about grit, the light bulb really connected when I was studying persistence, um, and understanding persistence of first generation students in my dissertation at the University of Florida. And I found that intrinsic motivation and grit was definitely some of the factors that contributed to their success. And that's when it, boom, it hit me. This is what I've had my whole life. I went from a homeless shelter into a college dorm overnight. Okay. I was homeless those two years, it was crazy, but I was in calculus while homeless, and still was able to pull out I think a B in that class, and then go on to University of Florida as a homeless kid and major in math and now here I am today, wrote 45 books and it was all

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:36

What?!

Dr. India White: 28:37

and,

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:38

45 books? That's insane!

Dr. India White: 28:41

Yeah, 45 and counting. And so, know, it's, it's just one of those things. I just decided, you know, we only live once on this side. I do believe in God, I do believe in eternal life and all that, I do believe in that, but I'm saying you live once in this life with everybody around you, you have one opportunity to make impact. So why not do it with a bang? Why not contribute in a way that will leave a stamp when you're gone, that people will say they did that thing. And I said, what do I want my legacy to be? I want them to say that girl had grit. She taught us how to have grit. You know, yeah, she loved God too, she taught us how to have grit and, and that's, that's what I want. So I have to be the first example. So when I was studying that at University of Florida and I found from the first generation students, grit was it, I was like, this is a well kept secret and I am going to expose it. And then I love Dr. Duckworth and her work on grit. And I just kind of wanted to champion her work as well. And so I had the opportunity to do a TEDx. And they came to me and they said, you know, apply for this, see what happens. And then when I saw it, it was like the power of, and then you fill in the blank. I'm like, well, the power of grit, everybody knows you need grit. And I went on to do that. And it was like, I'm now fulfilling my purpose. And whenever I see people are able to bounce back from low motivation and people are able to try again, and people are able to make great things happen in their lives, I know that grit is it. And I'm helping them to become grittier and they're developing their grit.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:13

Okay, so what does, I wanna know, so it's funny, like I'm writing a book, Math Therapy, now, and I,

Dr. India White: 30:18

Good for

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:19

It's, it's, thanks, that's so nice, India, it's interesting because I, grit gets such a like bad reputation now, I find, like I've had people, right, like, so what do define grit as to like a math student?

Dr. India White: 30:32

So GRIT is Great Resilience In Time. Grit is simply being able to take your resilience, which we all have, and saying, I'm choosing to be resilient in this moment to fulfill this particular purpose in this certain amount of time, because I have something, it's either a part of my purpose, or I'm going to get a reward, or it's going to help me for the next part of my journey. That is what it's all about. Everybody needs grit. Everybody that says I'm going to college. Why? Cause I want to become this. Why? So that I can give back or because I want to carry on my parents legacy, or, you know, I want to start that business or I want to do something new. That's why. But you have to measure it within a certain amount of time. And that's where people get lost. Grit is an innate trait that is within all of us, where when you have a trait of grit, you're able to, build that trait, like a muscle. You're able to say, okay, I need more grit, what do I need to do to harness my self control? What do I need to do to harness my emotions so that I can stay focused on this journey? Like that's what grit does is it helps you to really hone in and harness in time and harness in your purpose, so that you can really continue to move forward and not fall off the wayside, be distracted, or allow laziness to get the best of you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:51

I really actually like that because I think the way people think of it is in a way of like, Oh, when you tell kids about grit, you're blaming them for like all the systemic shit that's holding them back. And the way you're putting it is no, like, regardless of whatever your circumstances are in that moment, you can make a choice. You're not like, well, too bad, like you can all make a million dollars if you just get it together, you're kind of like, how do you do the best you can to be resilient, am I getting right?

Dr. India White: 32:17

You're spot

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:18

How do you define resilience? Like, what's resilience to you?

Dr. India White: 32:21

Um, so resilience is your ability to bounce back through a hard time. It's your ability to continue to move forward. Whenever you've had a hardship or something, your ability to bounce back and move forward. You develop an emotional or mental system within yourself to say, okay, come hell or high water, I'm moving forward. I'm going forward, I'm bouncing back, I'm going to make something great of this. I'm going to recycle the bad in this situation. I'm going to take my lemons and make lemonade. That's resilience. So the thing is grit did have a bad rap. People thought it was just like working out and things. Grit is what everybody needs. grit is what everyone has. And so I think that the bad rap, some people said it was for middle class. No, the grit is for everyone. Some people were like, Oh, grit is just for those that work out. No. Grit is for everyone and it's for each particular field of life, whether it's academic, whether it's, um, You know, a business, whether you need grit on the hospital bed, like you got to get better and you, you got to start, you know, believing that you're going to get better, whether you're dealing with grief and you have to believe, you know, that this isn't the end and, and something great will come out of this.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:31

Do you feel like this, because this, you know, my whole thing is about math therapy and math trauma and how we heal, and I feel like there's a real place for like teaching kids skills around grit in order to like, like you said, get them through the tough times. Have you had like specific experiences or applications of grit when it comes to like math trauma?

Dr. India White: 33:50

So two examples I can recall. The first one is when my brother passed away, I was homeless. And then, um, about. about a couple of months later, my brother passed and, um, I remembered having to go back to pre calculus class to take the final exam, studying while wiping my eyes, um, writing Bible scriptures, doing whatever I can to stay on top of things. It was the hardest time of my life, but I was able to bounce back and push through. Um, and I would say that that really, um, it just taught me that you can't give up no matter what. And the way I was able to bounce back was I was able to take that pain and that, that sorrow and that grief. And I dedicated the rest of my performances in the future to my brother. So I remember saying, bro, going to get through this for you. And I even said a prayer to the Lord, I'm Christian. I said, God, I said, if you can get me through this, I know you can get me through any chapter of my life. And it was a covenant that I made with God. Like we're going to get through this life together. And it was through grit. So that was one example. And then I remember, another example of math trauma, you know, being in my calculus class, and my teacher told me, he said, India, this isn't, um, he said, you're stupid. You'll never understand calculus and you'll never major in math. Why don't you go do something that you and your people can do. And, yeah. That's what he said. So I had to go to his class every day and be embarrassed, humiliated, didn't have, you know, support, but I knew my purpose was bigger than just that class and just that moment. And so I would harness enough grit to say, I'm going to ignore the noise and do what I need to do beyond this moment. Like, so I'm going to be successful in this moment and, and keep this like between me and God, and then use that to get into the next moment. And that's what I've had to do.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:52

It sounds like there's a real spiritual component to grit for you.

Dr. India White: 35:58

Yeah. Yeah, it is. Um, I think grit is, I think it's the driving force of everybody's life. When you wake up in the morning, when you choose to wake up and work out or choose to eat a bowl of healthy cereal versus pigging out over a bunch of sausages and eggs, or, you know, whatever you choose to do, the freeness of your life, the free will, when you put your mindset to anything and you take a step forward in something, it's because grit, you had enough grit, enough stamina to say, I'm going to go forward today. I'm going to make it a good day today. I'm going to choose to apply for that job. I'm going to choose to go back to school. I'm going to choose to buy my doctorate today. Whatever you do. That's

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:45

That was best full circle moment. Okay. I love it. We have to get to the final two questions. I'm so, I didn't even ask you half my questions, but it's good, this was so great. Okay, what is the one thing you'd like to see change about the way math is taught in schools?

Dr. India White: 36:59

I wish that there was more, advocating for students of diverse backgrounds so that they didn't seem like they always have to have watered down math, they always have to sit in the back of the classroom, or they always have to be on a disciplined school to prison pipeline type of, trajectory. I wish that it was more like, you know what? Let me actually listen to what Johnny has to say, or what Rashad had to say. Let me stop living in a bubble or having a pre assumption about them or a bias. Um, let me live beyond the bias and see them, you know, face value and give them a fair chance. I wish that there was just more advocacy and more agents of change that could really help bring that forth.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:39

And, and what if someone listened to all this and they were like, I love all your work on grit, but like India, I'm just not a math person.

Dr. India White: 37:46

my response to them is, uh, you are a math person, uh, you balance a checkbook, you get up every day, you check the time, you are able to, use math whenever you're cooking, you're able to use math on the road, you look at the GPS, you're able to, determine how much time you have left for a particular, uh, places you're trying to go to. And I would say to be encouraged. The reason why people feel like they're not a math person is because they've had some type of trauma or some type of negative experience. You might not be a rocket scientist. But you're still a math person. So I want to encourage everybody to say you are definitely still a math person. And if you had the right teacher, you would have been able to build that confidence even more. But even if you don't have the right teacher, hang out with people like me, uh, and we'll build your confidence over time. You'll be just fine.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:31

we'll build you, we'll buy you a doctorate in math, and you're gonna feel great

Dr. India White: 38:34

That's right. You'll get your honourary doctorate.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:37

Tell everyone where to find you. Tell us all the things. You have like a million things.

Dr. India White: 38:41

Sure. So, um, you can find me on my website, www.india-white.com. You can schedule a free strategy call with me. And then of course there's my email, india.white.123@gmail.com. And then you can also reach me on my social media, Twitter is@indiespeaknteach. Instagram is@ind1238, that's indi238 my um LinkedIn handle is@theindiawhite My Facebook handle is@msindiawhite, M S I N D I A and the word white. TikTok is@DrIndiaWhite.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:15

You have to change this! These all need to be the same!

Dr. India White: 39:20

Yeah. YouTube is@indiawhite123. What happened was some people stole some of these before so this is what I have.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:28

Ok, we'll put these all on the show notes page,

Dr. India White: 39:30

Excellent.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:31

Ok India, thank you so much for sharing so much of yourself, for sharing your passion, but also for sharing like some really hard stories. And I know that I've learned a lot, and I'm sure everyone listening has, and I just want to know so much more about you, so let's go get those honorary doctorates together and have a little ceremony and pop some champagne and hang out!

Dr. India White: 39:51

Yes! Sounds good.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:53

Okay, wow, I am capital I inspired. What about you guys? I mean, I think the biggest takeaway is the idea that equity isn't just about race. That's going to stick with me for a long, long time. I can't wait to hear what you guys thought and whether or not this has changed your thoughts about grit and how it might actually play out in a useful way in your classroom practice. So don't be shy. Let me know. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.