Dan Finkel: 0:01

Math is basically supercharged common sense. My perspective is we're all born to love it Seeing young kids naturally wanting to play with math, none of them are like, ugh, math, why do I have to do this? They just want to count, they're interested in shapes, they're interested in patterns. Kids just naturally want to play, and they naturally learn better from playing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:20

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, I cannot believe that Season 6 is over. Like, that flew by. Over the last nine weeks, we've covered some of the biggest and most pressing topics in math education today. From building trust in the classroom and giving students real purpose, to the true meaning of equity for literally everyone, and today's finale, with math educator Dan Finkel puts a beautiful bow on my favorite theme for this season: the inspiring movement towards amplifying the joy, wonder, and curiosity that fuels genuine learning in our students hearts and minds. I don't know about you guys, but I've always been confused about the idea of like, play in math. I can't put my finger on it, but sometimes I get skeptical about how those kinds of lovey dovey ideas can actually help kids. Which is strange if you think about the fact that at my tutoring center we make the students tea lattes and bedazzle their calculator, so like, I don't know what my problem is. So if even I get put off by trendy terms, I can only imagine the average classroom teacher out there rolling their eyes at some of the educational catchphrases we've been throwing around on this podcast. Well, Dan is here today to bring us down to earth and get practical. He's the founder of Math For Love, and I have been a huge fan of his forever. We talked about the role of play in learning and therapy, and Dan shares his belief that we are all born to like math, we just need the right supports to stay engaged with it. Dan, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for your, what's that sports term where you like put someone in?

Dan Finkel: 2:12

Oh, the pinch hitting.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:13

Yeah. You're pinch hitting right now.

Dan Finkel: 2:15

Where, it's where I like to be. That's right, just dropped in. No prep, all improvised. It's great.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:20

I'm really, really glad you're here. There's so much I want to talk to you about. I don't know what those things are yet, but they're going to come to mind. I kind of want to start with what we were just talking about when we forced David to press record.

Dan Finkel: 2:30

Well, I think one of the things you said is you were interested in, I'm always promoting this idea of a play based approach to math education. And you were saying, I'm a high school teacher. This doesn't even make sense. What are you talking about? So, Yeah, so let me let me try. So

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:46

I love that I'm getting you to ask your own questions. You're doing all the work. Okay, yes, go.

Dan Finkel: 2:51

uh, so, so I started out as a high school teacher, interestingly, and the longer I've been working, the younger I've been working with. So yesterday I led a session for pre K to third grade teachers.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:01

Oh wow. Oh my god.

Dan Finkel: 3:02

And I've been doing work with this nonprofit called Early Family Math, it's like birth to eight. Because even when kids are showing up in kindergarten, there's like already differences in math education, like a huge amount of important stuff happens. You know, five and younger. But part of the influence of that area for me, the working with young kids is that play ends up being this super important part of it. One of the things I like to say is play is the engine of learning for young children. This is really well understood, in a way, and, you know, there's been studies that have compared, like, for four year olds, you have a play based approach versus a very didactic, everybody sit down and stay still and then I'll tell you what to do. And and the kids just naturally want to play, and they naturally learn better from playing. And my perspective is that this is especially true when it comes to mathematics, which I think is more likely to be abused in the sense that people will say, ignore your common sense. Don't play around. Don't experiment. Just do what I tell you to do. And like, if it doesn't make sense, whatever else is happening, just ignore all that and just repeat what I just told you. And at the same time, I think playing with mathematics and mathematical ideas ends up being incredibly productive. And the best working mathematicians that I can think of are the people who are into games, into playing around with things. I used to have a professor when I was studying math who would say, like every problem he was like, here's the game. Because he would basically translate the problem into a game, and then you had to, like, figure out what the rules were and play the rules to get your ending situation and translate it back into the problem. And so, just the idea of, like, you're always playing games, you're always messing with puzzles, that is somehow one of the key skills. You know, one of the great inspirations from an earlier generation was Martin Gardner's Scientific American columns, which were called Mathematical Games. That was the vision of like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:00

What was that? Can you explain for us, you know, Gen Z over here?

Dan Finkel: 5:05

Yeah, no, this was, this was like impacted a whole generation. He wrote probably, I'm not going to get these dates right, but he wrote for decades in Scientific American from like the forties to the late eighties or the early nineties or something. And it was the place where people would go for mathematical inspiration. It's like, here's what's going on at the forefront of the field. Here's magic tricks, cool new ideas, here's puzzles. It was all in one place. He corresponded with like, everybody in the field and just sort of was the one who was writing for a general audience and he inspired a generation of mathematicians, engineers, scientists. But it was through a very playful, play based approach

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:48

Is this like an escape room situation?

Dan Finkel: 5:52

I would say not exactly in the sense that escape rooms come in many flavors, though maybe there's a piece of it there, but I think there is something about the popularity of escape rooms or, you know, Sudoku or all these things where something in us that craves this.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:05

Huh.

Dan Finkel: 6:06

And has a hard time identifying it as math and is looking for it guises. But anyway, so what I'm actually hoping is that this play based approach, sometimes explicitly through playing with games, playing with blocks, manipulatives, those kind of things for young kids actually starts to influence upper elementary, middle school, and high school, and we start to see what is still a playful approach to mathematics, but in more and more rigorous technical problems. But, but that, for me, is one of the things that makes it really fun, is when you have these problems that feel very playful and very game like, puzzle like, whatever it is. but they're still very, like, just interesting math problems in their own right. That's part of the fun of it for me. Recreational math, I guess.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:53

But hold on though because You're proposing, are you? I don't want to put words in your mouth, are you proposing that you're like, you're still teaching the math concepts that you're wanting to teach, like, don't worry, you're still going to teach kids how to factor quadratics, we're just going to do this in this place. You are. You're, Dan is nodding everyone. This is a podcast. Okay.

Dan Finkel: 7:09

No, no, absolutely. Yeah. And which is not to say, which is not to say that you never have to, sometimes you actually just have to do a lesson and it's like, okay, this is just kind of a little bit of a drier topic and I need to just tell you how this thing works. That certainly happens sometimes. But I think there's a huge amount of untapped possibility when it comes to just interesting problems. that are very playful, puzzly, interesting, have that quality from recreational math. And then, I think also what's really powerful is the skill to take things that are dry and actually see what's interesting and see what's fun about them. I mean, in a way, what we really want students to do is not get to the end of a problem and say, I'm done, what do I do next? We want them to say, oh, I finished, but I was doing this, and then I had another question. Like, something else happened to me, and I wonder if I play around with it like this, what would happen? And those are the students who, when I see them, I'm like, Oh, yeah, you're going places because, that skill to Oh, no, seriously, well, it's like, if you can ask the next question

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah,

Dan Finkel: 8:08

and be like, I'm not satisfied because I just did what the teacher did, but I actually, I'm going to play with this myself, then they're the ones who are owning it and really gonna, I think, have a success in the field.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:20

But it's interesting too, because I'm not, I'm even thinking of it further of like, great, they're going to have success, fine, but more like, it's, it's not only like, oh, they're, smart and I'm using air quotes, like smart enough to ask the next question. They actually give a fuck, like they care enough to like, keep going. And like, isn't that a huge problem in math right now? Is that so many kids don't see any value or purpose in what they're learning that they're like, why would I keep asking questions when I can just be finished?

Dan Finkel: 8:47

Totally. Well, and this is one of the reasons I've gone down to work with younger and younger populations also, because my perspective is young kids never feel that way. They love math. Because they're living in a chaotic world, and math is this incredible tool that's helping them to impose order on the world. So, so it's like, this is just, math is basically supercharged common sense. It's like, yeah, just what you do to make sense of the world, but now we're gonna help you sharpen that, and so you get more and more control and more and more power. And so it's natural for people to feel like they own it. The reason that so many people are traumatized is they go to school and that control is essentially wrestled away from them, right? They, because, my perspective is we're all born to love it. Like this is meant to belong to us. And if we go and see a teacher who says, okay, yeah, you have some perspective, whatever, that doesn't matter, ignore that, now, just listen to what I say. That's a fundamental perversion and inversion the natural state, which is, no, this was my thing, and now you're telling me I should ignore, like, shouldn't make sense, the thing that I use to make sense of things shouldn't even make sense. Like, so that is why people I think either love math or hate it, and so rarely between. We're born to love it, and if that's denied and that's stymied and that's taken from us, then we learn to hate it, but we're never neutral,

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:08

Oh my god, I have full body goosebumps right now. Well, no, because I'm really like what an interesting way to look at it. So first of all, this is a podcast about math trauma and healing math trauma.

Dan Finkel: 10:19

Which is something I've thought about a lot, you, as you can imagine. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:22

Which is so cool. But like, I want to go back to this idea of like, we're born to love math. We're born to love math. And this reminds me of all the nature versus nurture arguments that are out there consistently of this idea, well, can anyone do math? Can anyone be good at math? Like, is there a math gene? When you say we're born to love math and then that's taken away from us, that is such a powerful sentiment. But I guess my first question is, what do you mean by we're, all born to love math?

Dan Finkel: 10:53

Yeah, I mean, again, like, seeing young kids naturally wanting to play with math, like, none of them are like, ugh, math, why do I have to do this? They're like, they just want to count, they're interested in shapes, they're interested in patterns, because it's helping them make sense of things and feel more in control of the world. So it's just like, that's just there from the

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:11

Wait, stop, say that, like, let's talk about that though. Like, it's funny because I, I hated math for a long time, I failed grade 11 math twice, and then when I, you know, things changed for me, one of the things I found so, like I found math really meditative. There was this sense of order and this sense of like poetry and this sense of like, everything has its place and when you can reduce a giant algebraic expression down to like one number, like it was like, so like complexly simple. But there's two things, like, you're kind of saying, like, kids use math as a way to control and make order of the world, or math is used as a way to control them.

Dan Finkel: 11:47

That's exactly right like it's something we have to learn, but there is an instinct towards it, like there's an instinct to want to make sense of the world, to want to find patterns that will help us understand how the world works. So the problem that you see in high school, I think, of kids being like, why do I have to do this? Can I just be done with this? I'm saying that's not a problem for first graders. They're, they're just interested. And even younger, the more, like, the younger, essentially that is a special type of ignorance that is learned in school.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:14

Yeah. Oh my God. I love that. I love that. Well, yeah, because it's almost like once you label something, it's like when you like are really enjoying hanging out with someone and then they call you your, their girlfriend and you're like, Ooh, wait, what? That's what we're doing?

Dan Finkel: 12:28

Yeah, maybe I have to think about that metaphor. Uh, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:33

Cause you're like, Oh, like you're having fun. And then someone's like, you're doing math. And then all of the connotations that come with math and your inability to do it and what it means, do you

Dan Finkel: 12:43

My experience, like when I worked with high schoolers, I feel like I would get kids who were in this category of like, oh, just tell me when I'm done with this. It was possible of almost all of them to show them some beautiful result in mathematics and have them still say like, wow, you know what I mean? And I just felt like, wow, it seems like it's so universal that there's something in us that responds to the beauty of the subject and to the power of the subject. And it would be so much nicer to not have to try to undo all the damage happens, in school, like when kids are in high school or adults, and instead just kind of do it right in the first place. And I think play for me is the central ingredient of this, because play has a lot to do with owning things. It has a lot to do with making your own choices. The things that you can't play with are the things that aren't yours, and the things that are yours are the things you can play with, and the things you can kind of break and mess around with. And there's just a deep connection between play and ownership, and some big part, I think, of liking math and also success in math has to do with feeling ownership over it, feeling like it's yours, feeling like, you know, you're on board with this project. So it's true, there are all these hypotheticals of like, well, what if this way leads to success, but this way leads to people feeling better about it. I think most of the time, the same approach can give you both of those things. usually not a fundamental tension there, fortunately. If kids didn't come in already liking math, it would be a lot harder. But the kids do arrive at school ready to just like math. So,

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:19

Well, I guess like at certain ages, yes. But as you were saying, even like in kindergarten, like, I run a tutoring center, like, that's what I've done for, almost 20 years. And I actually find that, I think this is for a variety of reasons, but like more and more lately, do I get kids who are like, parents are like wanting a tutor for their three year old. And like, the reason is because they're already anxious about math or they're already saying the words, I hate math. And they're three.

Dan Finkel: 14:45

Gosh, I haven't seen three year olds saying they hate math, that's tough, that is hard. But, There certainly are huge differences when kids are arriving at school that I'm aware of, and I think that's zero to five.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:57

Like what?

Dan Finkel: 14:58

I mean, kindergarten readiness is just a huge issue, and there's kids who show up.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:02

It is?

Dan Finkel: 15:02

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:05

Like, what are you, aren't they three? How old are you in

Dan Finkel: 15:07

Kindergarten starts at five. Yeah, this is in the U. S., yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:11

So what needs to happen?

Dan Finkel: 15:12

Well, there's some kids who show up knowing their numbers to 20 or beyond, who are just comfortable playing around with numbers, who have like, played with blocks a lot, and kind of have a sense of how shapes fit together. Often, like, number lines, like the proto number line skill is like, have you played Sorry or you know, Shoots and Ladders. Can you advance a piece on a board in a

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:35

What?

Dan Finkel: 15:35

line? Parcheesi. Kindergarten teachers will tell me, like, Oh, I know the kids who've been playing board games at home where you have to move a pawn on a board, and those who can't. Because some of them intuitively get number lines or related types of things, and some of them don't. And, so, again, this is like this play based approach. If you've been playing around with things. a lot of the early math topics are really natural and feel straightforward. if you haven't, then you're basically already kind of behind in kindergarten in the sense that you've got some kids who are just ready to start thinking about numbers and, Oh, what if you put them together? What if you take them apart? Sort of addition, subtraction, counting up higher. And then you have others who are still trying to grasp like numbers within 10, just basic counting and cardinality.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:24

That's so crazy to think that at that young of an age, that there's already, like, this difference building, and so much of it has to do with, what's happening in the home, because I can imagine that must be so stressful for parents. Like, I actually need you to give my friend parental advice right now, I didn't think of this, but she was, she was saying her daughter, she's like, well, we try to do math games with her and stuff, but she just doesn't like to do them, like, she'd rather do, like, role playing games more like story based games. But it's interesting because my friend hates math and is like so anxious around her own math. So I'm kind of like, is this a thing where it's like your daughter's just picking up on that? Is it a thing where like she legitimately doesn't want to do it? Like, what do you do in that situation?

Dan Finkel: 17:03

Research seems to suggest that kids do pick up on it at very young age. And yeah, and usually by like around second to fifth grade, girls have a sense of like, math is a boy's subject. That is, and often the parents, it's like very powerful, the signaling. Um, however, so I've been working with this organization, Early Family Math, EarlyFamilyMath.org, if anyone wants to go, there's like tons of free materials there. The goal being like, how can we help people have a good time with their kids around math from a young age? And the line that is the most widely known thing that I've ever said is what books are to reading, play is to mathematics.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:37

What books are to reading, play is to mathematics.

Dan Finkel: 17:41

The point being that we all know we're supposed to read at home with our young children. There's this campaign of like, what do you do? Hey, you want your kids to read, read to them, get a book. From the moment they're born, right, so then it's like, okay, well, what do you do for math? And the answer is you've got to be playing with kids, but it's a type of playing that has to do with counting and organizing, but also like patterns. In a way, jokes are kind of mathematical in the sense that you,

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:12

Like the formula of a joke?

Dan Finkel: 18:14

Yeah, you set up a pattern and then you break it. You know, it's always like the first person does this, the second person does this. But the third person, you know what I mean? It's always like, um, And I had a really interesting experience with this because I have now written a children's book, which is called Pattern Breakers. And I read it in my kids preschool class. And the game is there's a little girl who is looking for these monsters called the pattern breakers and they're hiding behind different colored dots. But they always break the pattern when they hide. So it goes purple, yellow, purple, yellow, purple, yellow, purple, yellow, blue. And she's like, wait, what does that blue one doing there? And then there's a little monster behind them. And that's, and so it's so simple, you know, very, but what happened when I read it is when we're doing this, the kids were erupting in laughter and they weren't erupting in laughter because the monster was there. It was just that there was a pattern that set up an expectation that then switched. And that was all they, yeah, and so it was like, that was so funny to them. I was like, that is really surprising

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:12

This is insane.

Dan Finkel: 19:14

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:15

I love this because people always ask me what should you do with your kids and you're always like well do math with them in the kitchen like do, but you're right, you're just like, play games.

Dan Finkel: 19:23

Playing games is huge. Anything with dice, anything with cards, anything where you're moving pieces on a board. It's like, anything where you're keeping score, like all of that is like involving numbers in a place where just kids want to do it. But then even more basically like, when I had, you know, a kid under one year old, I feel like I was always doing little fun, like, pick up and kiss kind of games, but you do it on the count of three, right? Like, one, two, three. Then maybe you go to four sometime, and it's a surprise. I have videos of, like, my nine month old, and I literally, you say, one, and like, they just jerk to attention because they know something fun is about to happen. Then two, and they're just like waiting for what's going next. And it's just to have that built in where it's like, this is part of what organizes time, organizes our, our time together. So we, while we play, because if I hadn't done that, then it would be less fun. There'd be less anticipation if they didn't know there's this regular sequence that always has something fun happen at this point.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:21

Yeah I just interviewed Francis Su and he was saying similar, like totally different, but he was talking about how he does something similar where he uses his fingers and he goes, so I'm holding up one finger right now and I'm up another, and he'll say, you know, well, how many fingers do I have on this one hand? And the kid will look and say one. And on the other hand, one, and then like doing this and the, and his little kid will be able to say two. Okay. We delete this because this makes no sense. Okay. Anyways, go listen to Francis. Go.

Dan Finkel: 20:48

All visual, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:49

Anyways, the point is that like, I think it's really cool because these are all, I don't want to say like easy, such a bad word, but I think these are accessible things that basically any parent could do. Even if you hate math and are the most anxious, you're probably doing it anyway, it's more about like, right?

Dan Finkel: 21:03

Yeah, this is one of the main things is math is in all our lives in these small, these small ways and just to identify it as like, oh, I'm actually doing it in this little way and it's helping me. And even like with young kids, just even talking about over under, positional stuff ends up being very important for math development. There's a lot of little technical things that are like, Oh, if they count something, you like, say how much they count at the end. It's like 1 2 3 4 5. And you say, Oh, yeah, there's 5 Cheerios or whatever, that sort of emphasizes that, like, that's a technical point about like, Oh, the number at the end sort

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:37

means

Dan Finkel: 21:37

the amount of the whole thing. But playing is really the key element.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:41

So, okay. So I think it's really interesting because like, I got into like a lot of internet trouble, a lot of hot water, shall we say,

Dan Finkel: 21:47

ok

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:47

a few weeks ago, because I was talking about the times tables on TV and I said, I believe kids need to know the times tables. I don't believe they need to memorize them. And what I meant was like, yes, you should have math facts stored in your brain, but like rote memorization is not necessarily the way to get there. And then what I said, you can disagree with me by the way, but what I said was, I said, it's like when you learn not to touch a hot stove, it's not because you've memorized that rule in your head, it's because, you figured it out or you've actually done it and it's been hot and you've learned a lesson or like dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. You hate it. You hate that.

Dan Finkel: 22:20

Well, no, no, I know exactly, I think I know exactly what you're saying and what you're, where you're coming from. This is a tricky communication point because I think it has to do with the word memorize. So in math, there's this big question, like, what things do you need to have memorized and what things do you not? And I think people can disagree on that, and people do. I personally believe that multiplication facts are something that you definitely need to have in your, like that needs to be automatic at some point because it just slows you down too much later, it's too hard to not have that. And how do you get there? And I think what you're saying, when you're saying don't memorize them is you don't want it to be like disconnected facts. You want it to be like, Oh, here's just like 6 times 8, 48, that's just like I learned this little rhyme.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:02

Exactly. You don't even know it's six groups of eight. Like you don't know what it is.

Dan Finkel: 23:06

Exactly. like, we have this with square numbers for people like, Oh, know, 6 squared is 36. But like, Oh, it's actually a square and like connecting that to the area of a square. Like, Oh, I never thought that that was connected. Um, so what we want is the automaticity to be growing, not just out of rote practice, but out of a sort of a connected, contextualized understanding where you're actually learning what the things mean and have a different representations for them in different ways to understand them, but then also get them in your memory at some point and have them down cold. That's where I fall on that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:37

But so fine. Yes. I agree. But this isn't even, so that was one argument. But the thing that I wanted to bring up is what people kept commenting, one of the comments, like other than calling me like an idiot and saying that I should get off the internet and girls with sparkly eyeshadow shouldn't comment on math. Other than those comments, People kept saying, this idea of like. it's in our genetics or like it's in our biology to, to not want to touch something hot. But that math is not something that's like in our genetic code. And you, you, I'm still on this point of your, you being like, as babies, like we are all, born with this, I

Dan Finkel: 24:17

Well, it's an instinct towards math

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:19

Yes, yes, that's

Dan Finkel: 24:21

it's true, and now suddenly I want to be careful because it is true that the deeper you go in mathematics the less natural it does feel and

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:30

Sure, but we were talking about, like, patterns in the just Like, we're talking about math.

Dan Finkel: 24:35

I think there is something fundamentally appealing about that and we are fundamentally drawn towards like the symmetries, the patterns, the sort of sense of like simplicity and beauty that comes out of those things. I do think that is that has an inherent appeal. Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:51

And this isn't a science podcast, for everyone, not like we're like, oh, there's research, just talking about what we know, and what we, who we've talked about, and like, whatever, and just pondering this, so no one cancel us and everyone chill.

Dan Finkel: 25:02

I mean, partly, I'm also aware of how easy it is to be misunderstood, I think, when you, like, put something forward.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:09

But we've always counted, like, there's always been, like, a need to find pattern, order.

Dan Finkel: 25:15

But this is an interesting point also because, you know, there are some cultures which don't have, like, number words that go beyond three, say.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:22

Ok.

Dan Finkel: 25:22

It's like one, two, many. And this is going really deep in the weeds now, but there's like, there seems to be a hardwired understanding of number that goes up to maybe, three or four, and then there seems to be another sort of hardwired sort of estimational ability of like more or less in larger groups, but that's not connected to like the actual literal number. But then I think we develop the tool. So so how do you say this? I think there is a fundamental instinct towards mathematics that has to do with the draw to patterns, and being able to make sense of the world through simplifying and through finding underlying order. And then there is also this instinct towards the beauty of it and towards the power of it and just what it gives us in that sense. But then a lot actually does have to be developed. And the development doesn't necessarily happen on its own. I don't know what this tells us about the arguments you are having with people online about the times tables.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:20

That I'm right about everything.

Dan Finkel: 26:22

I don't, Yeah, I don't, I don't have enough background to even totally get what are saying there. But, um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:27

Okay, what you need to know is the internet a cesspool and we're moving on.

Dan Finkel: 26:29

That I agree with. That I think is clear, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:33

So I, do, do people ever say to you like, Oh my god, Dan Finkel and his math play. Like, are people ever like, we don't have time to be playing around.

Dan Finkel: 26:42

Yeah, I get that less than you would think. I actually would almost expect to get it more. But I think, this is again a communication thing. I never want people to hear"play", that just means, oh, we just mess around and we don't care. What I'm trying to say is, I actually feel like math, as it is often taught, the math, I guess, that traumatizes people, right? The math that people need therapy for, uh, is the math that because it's so not playful, but it's actually a much more superficial kind of math also. The math is much less deep, it's much less interesting. The understanding that comes from it is much more fragile. It's the kind of thing where it's like we spent so long saying, here's exactly how to do this kind of problem. And then the test has one word different and everyone misses it on the test and the teacher's like, why did they change that one word? Like I've been teaching them that every time they see the word difference it means this

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:35

Yes.

Dan Finkel: 27:35

But they use it this way. The test is doing that on purpose because they're trying to see how fragile the students knowledge is. And we want a robust knowledge where, you know, you change the word and kids like, well, I still get it because I've like, I don't just have one path. I've been like exploring all the woods, you know, and like, if I get a little off, I can come back in another way. That's what we want. And you get that from playing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:57

I'm realizing I had my back up whenever people are like, math play, it like turns me off so much. And I'm, and I'm wondering, like, now, hearing you talk about it, I'm like, Oh, my God, yes. But I guess, to me, it seemed almost like a trite, silly word. Like Oh, he just wants me to like, play with like toys or manipulatives. But that's not at all what you're saying.

Dan Finkel: 28:17

What I'm saying is that the invitation to play is what will help get into much deeper

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:22

What is my problem with the, why did the word play throw me off so much?

Dan Finkel: 28:25

In fairness, a lot of people have that, I think, and maybe I should expect more of a backlash. Maybe if I get a little more popular, I'll get more of a backlash.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:33

No, no, no. Well after this podcast, watch out. Well, I get the same thing math therapy though, right? People are like, therapy. And you're like, well, hold on.

Dan Finkel: 28:41

Though I will say, you're also, you're doing high school, that's where I started, but it's less and less my focus these days.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:46

Sure. but it's almost like even more important, like the way you're talking about it. I'm like, Oh my God, like, think about gaming, it's like teenagers love playing. They just, they wouldn't want to sit around and play with a toy, they would think that was childlike, but like, they're all playing video games, they're all like making TikToks. Like they are engaged. And I like the way you put it before. What did you say? It wasn't extracurricular math, was it? Uh, recreational math. this idea of recreational, they're doing sudoku, they're doing their wordle, like,

Dan Finkel: 29:13

Yeah, thing that I do that, like, gets the most, online views of anything is I author these TED Ed riddles sometimes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:20

Ooh. Yeah, people love riddles. People love a riddle.

Dan Finkel: 29:23

The internet loves riddles. It's funny, literally, it's like a side project and I just do it because sometimes I have a good idea for a riddle and so I've written a few of these and it's like, 2 million views, 5 million views and it's

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:33

You're so famous.

Dan Finkel: 29:35

Well nobody knows, they're animated also, like, that's the whole, that's TED really

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:39

Sure, we should put your face in there though, if you want to start getting some haters.

Dan Finkel: 29:42

I keep telling them, I'm like, just like slap my face on there!

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:45

Oh my god. Okay. Listen, I have to like wrap up soon which is sad because this has gone by so fast. Um, What do we think of play or recreational math or what you're talking about as a part of math therapy. Like math therapy to me has five steps and like those steps involve you know, learning about growth mindset, rewriting your story, unpacking trauma, like finding motivation. I feel like, this idea of incorporating play as a means for students to get to know themselves and how they think and develop this curious, like, I don't know, like there's something there for me. What do you think? Like, does play have the power to heal?

Dan Finkel: 30:19

I think yes. I think definitely. I mean, there is, for young kids, there is a thing called play therapy, right? It's a tricky question. Play requires a kind of safety. Like, if you feel like you're being judged, feel like the stakes are really high, it's very hard to play, unless you're like a professional and this is like you've prepared. Um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:37

Oh my god, sports are playing!

Dan Finkel: 30:39

Yeah. We do it everywhere, right? Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:42

We play in a band! Oh!

Dan Finkel: 30:44

Yeah, music, theater, right? You are in a play.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:48

Oh my god.

Dan Finkel: 30:49

Yeah, there is a kind of frame which defines the space, you know, the rules of the sport or the rules of the game or the lines of the play, whatever, but then there's within that frame, there is space for you to put yourself in there also, and kind of say, okay, how am I going to contribute to this? What of this would only be this way because I'm the one doing it. That's something very powerful and I think, I think it can heal in some cases, but it definitely can help grow and help you learn about yourself. Um, and I think it just feels very positive to do that. Like we all want to feel like we're important enough that like the thing would not be exactly the same if somebody else did it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:26

Oh my god, yeah, we're all so self obsessed. We all want to be the main character of our math question.

Dan Finkel: 31:31

Yeah, sure. Someone gave me this advice once they said, someday you'll have kids and you'll be sending them to kindergarten. Here's how you pick a kindergarten. Go to the school, look at the art on the wall, and if it all looks the same, don't send your kid to that school. The idea being like, that's all frame. We're like, here's the rules, first make this, then do this, and they're like, yeah, we would never do that with art. Like, we would know that that's not gonna be good for kids to control every movement they make with art because part of art is to put yourself into it, you know, express yourself, all those things. And yet math, how many math experiences would rise to that level, right? Mostly you're like, if you did it right, it should look exactly everyone's else. And I could take you out and put someone else in and it doesn't matter. Right? So

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:18

This is blowing my mind! You're speaking to like the ego in me. Like yeah, what the fuck? Why am I not, why is this not centered around me?

Dan Finkel: 32:26

Well who would want? I mean, nobody wants to be like, Oh, I could just do something else and you could do it. Right. And I think that's why there's always this question, like, why do we have to do this? I finished, can I like go now? Like, is this what they want me to do? You know, it's just like, when am I ever going to use this is the classic, which isn't saying like, Oh, in 20 years, like you're going to need to grout your floor, and so this is like, you'll know how much grout to buy. It's like right now you're asking me to do something really weird, cause like. I don't even need to be here for this. And so I think that the perspective of like, we need to be framing experiences where there are really clear, rigorous technical rules, like in a sport or a game or in music or a theater or whatever, but there's still space inside where you can actually put something of yourself. And so you made something and maybe you make something and it still has to like satisfy the rules, but it, it wouldn't be the same if somebody else did it. I do think that that can be healing to experience especially if you haven't before.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:23

And just that sense of belonging, finally feeling like there's a reason for you to be, I love that you said that, there's a reason for you to be there. You.

Dan Finkel: 33:30

And I'll tell you, I, so I gave a session yesterday at, it was pre-K through third grade, but we were doing some things with pattern blocks, using actually our upscale pattern blocks developed by Canadian Nat Banting, who's, they're super cool. Anyway, we were talking about, like, there's these different sizes of pattern blocks, and we're talking about how many of the little triangles would take to cover the big one. And someone was like, well, I sort of see, once I see them in the little triangles inside them, I see how I could fill them up and do this. And I was like, oh, that's a really great observation of how it works. And they were blown away that some idea they had was like, somebody thought it was a good idea. You know what I mean? And she had this very sort of heartbreaking line, which was, she actually commented later to the group, she was like,"I've never really loved math until I guess until today".

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:16

But how cool is that for you? Like it's never too late.

Dan Finkel: 34:19

Well, this is why I think your perspective of math therapy, I have said this for a long time, but I feel like my first interaction with teachers, especially elementary school teachers is often therapy. Like that's what the first session is, but it is also a session that is play based and is very non judgmental and is something where they can feel like whatever they do, it's like, oh, there's something to learn in whatever you did. And like, you're contributing. If you participate, you're contributing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:45

Okay. I have to ask you this because I've been dying to unpack this with you and I, I literally quoted you saying this in my book, but I never dreamed I could ask you in person what you meant. So do you know what I'm talking about? You have this quote basically where you're like, it's bullshit to tell everyone that there are math people.

Dan Finkel: 35:01

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:02

Can you just tell me what you mean? Because, and I say this every time I'm like, for me, the goal of math therapy is to help every student build a better relationship with math, even if it's like the teeniest better relationship with math. And whenever people are like, what if like, they really can't do it? Or like, you can't tell kids that they can all do math. I'm like, I'm not saying that I'm saying they can all build a better relationship with math than they have right now. But we do want to be saying like, you know, there's a lot of discourse being like, we should tell everyone they're math people, everyone can do math.

Dan Finkel: 35:30

Yeah. I am very nervous whenever the messaging is like, let's all just tell everybody this thing and that'll solve the problem. Talk is very cheap, uh, in education, and fads are endemic and it's very easy to be like, you just say the right thing, and I just feel like that doesn't address what the real problem is. And it leads to a place where it's almost harder because the kids are smart, they know if the teachers are BSing them, know, you know, if the teacher says, like, you're all math people, but like, you got it right, you didn't, you're smart, you're dumb. I mean, they infer all of that. So when it comes to saying, like, are you a math person or not? Where I want people to be is I am not afraid of math. I can use it as much as I need to and that's not going to scare me. I'm not going to, like, give up on my dream of being an architect or a veterinarian or a nurse because I can't pass the requisite math courses, and I see why someone else would really love this subject. I remember I think my younger brother at one point like visited France and he had never learned another language and he's like, Oh, I see how I could learn French, but I'm not going to.

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:33

Yes, that's empowering. That's what I think too. It's like just changing your narrative to be like, I guess I could do this if I want to, but I'm going to choose not to.

Dan Finkel: 36:42

Yeah. And which is fine. Like, not everybody needs to like, go into the deep recesses of mathematical research. Like it's fine.

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:48

Do something else.

Dan Finkel: 36:49

But, but, but I had something really similar with art. Actually, I was always afraid of art. I was always really bad at art. I think I used to say, like, I was so bad that I would like make people worse at drawing just by like drawing next to them.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:01

That's ridiculous.

Dan Finkel: 37:02

Well, no, I mean, but at some point in college, I was like, this is ridiculous. I'm going to take an art foundations class. This just seems dumb. I learned the basics. I was like, I'm never going to be a great artist, but I could learn this and get decent at it. And it was a nice thing to just feel like, yeah, that's totally in me if I want to pursue it. So, yeah, I think we could all be decent in mathematics if we wanted to. Um, not everyone can be a research mathematician. That's very hard.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:29

I think it's actually a really important message because you're right. If you're saying to someone like, no, everyone can, fly to the moon, people are gonna be like, okay, that's ridiculous. Like,

Dan Finkel: 37:39

you know, this is, there is a part of me that even if things are right and true, I get nervous once everybody starts, once it becomes kind of like the common wisdom, like growth mindset is a little bit like that for me, where I'm like, yeah, seems totally legit, totally right. And yet, there's something in me that when, like, we're preaching growth mindset to kids all the time, just like, I start getting a little nervous.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:00

Why?

Dan Finkel: 38:01

Well, it's too easy to say it, I think, and harder to do it, and I just feel like, and, yeah, and what I really want is for teachers to maybe talk about it less to kids, but maybe work on it more themselves.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:16

100%. Oh my god there's a whole chapter in my book about this that's coming out. Because the whole thing too with growth mindset is, this is like being like, I believe I can get jacked, I believe I can be ripped, but I'm not going to change any of my behavior. I'm just going believe it can happen. It's like, no, I need to believe I can get ripped and then I need to go to the actual gym. Like, you know, it's like we never get to the behavior part. You can't just tell kids like you can do anything. You've got to prove it to them and give them opportunities to discover that within themselves.

Dan Finkel: 38:43

Yeah. Yeah. So I think that's where I get nervous.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:45

Yeah, the just saying it, like the poster on the wall aspect of it.

Dan Finkel: 38:49

Right. And education is so susceptible to fads, kind of, easy answers. There's a great line, uh, about this, which is that school change is measured, not in years, but in generations. For me, the thing it's like, okay, you could just got to be in it for the long haul and you can't just be like, Oh, what's going to fix this quickly. It's

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:06

Right now, yeah.

Dan Finkel: 39:07

Settle in, get ready for this to be like a lifetime project.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:11

Okay, final two questions. You have to answer them in literally 30 seconds. We can't do this anymore. Okay.

Dan Finkel: 39:15

But it's so fun to talk to you, Vanessa!

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:17

I know I'm having so much fun, but like actually David's gonna kill me. Okay, number one. What is the one thing you'd like to see change about the way math is taught in schools?

Dan Finkel: 39:27

Jeez

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:28

Your face is so good.

Dan Finkel: 39:29

That's like a huge question! The number one thing, um

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:34

This isn't like picking your favorite album, like just say something

Dan Finkel: 39:36

Yeah, no, no, I mean, I, coming from a sense of sense making for students, I mean, and we've been talking about play based approach. Maybe I'll say like, have more playfulness in it as a, as a short answer. But there's, I, that's like a book in itself.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:51

You look stressed.

Dan Finkel: 39:52

That's a stressful question. Because I'm like anything I say is incomplete.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:56

Yeah this is like timed Exactly. Okay. Final question. And you kind of already answered this, but whatever. What do you say to someone who's like, Dan, this is such a great talk, but like, I'm just not a math person.

Dan Finkel: 40:09

Yeah, what I usually say is, that's a very reasonable thing to feel, based on the experiences you've probably had around math. Uh, however, there, you know, that, you know, that's, that's reasonable and there may be some things in math that, you know, you would have a different experience with, like school math is not the same as what math actually is. But I think just being told like, Oh, you actually are a math person. That doesn't actually, yeah, people, people are like, you're telling me to not like trust my own eyes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:40

Right. Right. Okay. Okay. We're done. I have to say goodbye to you. Like, if you could see David's face right now, he's like, I gave you the ten minute warning five times.

Dan Finkel: 40:50

What a pleasure. This was so fun.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:52

I'm so glad that's your reaction, especially because I felt like I kind of stalked you to come on the podcast.

Dan Finkel: 40:57

Not at all. This was great.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:58

This was amazing. I'll talk to you later.

Dan Finkel: 41:00

Ok, bye bye!

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:00

Bye! I loved every second of that. And honestly, I mean, you guys probably hear it in my interviews, obviously I love math and sometimes I get so excited about learning some little trick or finding some curious little discovery, but rarely would I think of associating that stuff with the word play. But that's what it is. Who cares if it sounds cheesy? Say it with me. Learning can be fun. I am all in on this play concept. I love the idea that learning can be a joyful discovery and not just cramming some numbers and facts into your brain so you can get a good mark on a test. Well, season six in the can or in the bag or whatever people say when something's done. Thank you as always for listening. It means so much to me to know that these conversations aren't just helping me but they're reaching students and teachers and parents who just want the best for our education system and our future. I would love to hear what you thought of this season and who you'd like me to interview for the next one. So hit me up. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.