Kevin Dykema: 0:02

If I want my students to be willing to take risks and to learn something, I've got to be willing to model that by taking risks of my own. There are times that I'll tell my students, I tried something new, it flat out didn't work, let's try something different. And I think as teachers, we need to model that. And we need to really keep the student in the center of mind.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:23

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. So one of the biggest math education conferences ever happens every single fall and it's happening again in less than two weeks. So I thought I would bring on a very special guest who I've never actually spoken to, but have always wanted to: Kevin Dykema, President of the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, aka NCTM. Honestly, guys, this conversation took so many twists and turns. I didn't even get to ask any of the questions I had planned. We got so deep into why people are so resistant to change in math ed and how challenging it is for teachers to change their approach to teaching when they're currently being expected to teach in a way they were never taught or never even trained to teach. And obviously we talked about my new book for two seconds. It's called Math Therapy and it's full of strategies, tools, templates, all of this fun stuff to help teachers prevent and heal math trauma in their classrooms. I'm just so excited, I had to like throw in this shameless plug because you can officially order it right now by heading to www.maththerapy.com. Also side note, kevin was actually somewhat disappointed that I didn't end up uttering a single swear word during our interview, despite my warnings that I am a voracious swearer. So I thought I would fix that right now by saying, you guys are gonna love Kevin, so let's fucking go. Kevin, welcome to the podcast. I have been like a fan of yours from afar, I think for a very long time, but I don't think we've ever had a conversation in actual person, but I have to say, every single time I talk about you or you come up in conversation, everyone's like, Oh my God, Kevin, he's the nicest guy, like, uh, and I'm always like, who is this man of mystery? So, so I just want to start by saying thank you for gracing me with your presence.

Kevin Dykema: 2:36

Thanks for the invitation. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:40

Me too. Okay. So in addition to everyone saying, um, that you're the greatest guy ever, I've been starting to like, wonder why everyone says that. And in my mind, I'm like, you know, everyone who I talk to you about knows you professionally. And when someone is so nice and emanating such good vibes, it's normally because they really love what they do. I kind of wanted to start by asking you, like, how did this rise to fame begin? Like, how did you become the president of NCTM?

Kevin Dykema: 3:07

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:08

How

Kevin Dykema: 3:08

and I hesitate to call it a rise to fame because there are, there are so many people who are so knowledgeable in the world of mathematics education. So I've been an 8th grade math teacher my entire life, over 25 years of teaching 8th graders, and I love my 8th graders most days. I was heavily involved with the Michigan Council of Teachers of Mathematics, served on their board, served as the, the conference program chair for six or seven years. And then somebody said, hey Kevin, would you run for the NCTM board? I said sure, so I ran for the board, didn't think I was gonna get picked, didn't get elected. Because when I looked at the list of who else was the candidates who was on the board, I mean, these are the rock stars of math education, these are the well known people and here I was a classroom teacher from Southwest Michigan. Much to my surprise, I was elected. So I served a three year term from 2016 to 2019. And then when there was a round of nominations for president, all of a sudden I started getting emails and texts from a variety of different people saying, Hey Kevin, we think it's time for a classroom teacher to become president of NCTM, and we think you're the person for it. I don't think it was a concerted effort because I don't know how these people knew each other, so I think it truly was just a conglomeration of different people. I had the, the, the imposter syndrome. I thought there was no way. I don't have a PhD, I'm not intelligent enough, I don't know enough about all the different areas of math education to be able to speak intelligently. I had a wonderful conversation with somebody with a PhD and I shared that and she said, welcome to my life. When I talk to somebody who also was a PhD, their specialty is something different than my specialty. I can't talk about their specialty as knowledgeable as they can. And she said, really the role of president is just to know what you don't know and seek out people who, who do know better. And I've been so fortunate that over these past two years, anytime I've reached out to anybody, they've all said, sure, I'll give you a half hour of my time and help educate you with, with a variety of different things. So this presidency has probably been the greatest professional development for me. I have learned so much about math education, learned so much about humanity and been able to meet so many wonderful people such as yourself.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:29

Oh my God. This, this is why people say you're the nicest guy ever. But like so many things, you know, you just said something so interesting, you said, I love what this person said to you, that the role of president is to know what you don't know. And I actually want to pause on that for a second because I feel like, I mean, and this for sure touches on the imposter syndrome I experience sometimes, that you feel like if you, you know, and that, you know what, in fact, we're going to get right into it because this is a podcast about math trauma. And I feel like so many teachers themselves experience math anxiety because they think if they don't know everything, they can't possibly get up in front of the room and try a new strategy and teach something. And I also, you know, so I actually want to hear a little more about that, that idea of your role is to know what you don't know. How do you navigate that with like that feeling that like, you should know more than you do.

Kevin Dykema: 6:21

Yeah, and it's a daily battle. It's something that I constantly get there, and anytime I get a media request, I have, oh, there are so many people who are much better equipped to talk to this reporter about this topic. And that just means, hey, I need to make sure that I know what's going on. I need to make sure I'm communicating with a variety of different people who have that area and reaffirm what I think I know. And a lot of times when I'm, when I'm thinking about a president's message that I'm writing, thinking about a media request, thinking about a presentation I have to give, you know, I come up with my list of talking points. Here's what I think about this. And then run it past somebody who has more expertise in that area. And then they say, Hey, yep, looks good. Or maybe you should have added this little bit to it as well. So it's been a wonderful experience.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:12

What would you say to a math teacher who experiences that same kind of thing, right? Like, who's kind of like, well, I kind of am worried about teaching this new concept. This kind of actually, to me, goes into a big question I have about professional development that I'll probably get to later, but I'll just touch on it quickly now, which is that because of the way math education is moving right now, so many teachers are expected to teach in a way they weren't taught, right? Like they haven't experienced that form of teaching themselves. They weren't necessarily trained in like their teacher program to teach that way. So they learn all these like incredible strategies during a one hour PD and they feel like that combined with their own anxiety they might have around math makes them unprepared to go try those in the classroom. What, what kind of advice do you have for them on that?

Kevin Dykema: 8:03

Yeah. So I think the advice that I'd have is the same advice I give myself all the time. If I want my students to be willing to take risks and to learn something, I've got to be willing to model that by taking risks of on my own. There are times that I'll tell my students, you know what, I tried something new, it flat out didn't work, let's try something different. Let's not just keep doing that same thing over and over and over again. And I think as teachers, we need to model that. And we need to really keep the student in the center of mind. I know that if I teach the way that I was taught, I'll reach a subset of students. And that's fantastic. But if I'm truly interested in meeting the needs of all of my students, I have to be willing to try different things. I need to continually remind myself, what works for student A is not going to work for student B, is not going to work for student C. There is no one thing that every single student is going to connect with and every single strategy or some strategy that every single student is going to be like, Oh, this is exactly what I need. I think our job as educators, is to be willing to try a variety of different things, if we're truly interested in meeting the needs of all of our students. And I think so often we say, Oh yeah, we want to meet all of our students needs. But it's one thing to say it. It's another thing to show it with our actions and being willing to try different things. And it's tough. It's tough when I try something new that's a little out of my comfort zone. And I've got to remind myself, it's okay if it didn't work smoothly the first time. It's okay if it didn't work as smoothly the second time. Change takes a little bit. By about the third or fourth time I've tried something, I start to get a better sense. Is this going to meet students needs? Is it not going to meet students needs?

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:47

You're making me think of a bit of a juicy question, this is a bit controversial, but I'm thinking what you said at the beginning. Like you said, I know if I teach the way I was taught, I'll reach a certain subset of students, but I want to reach, you know, everyone. But at the same time, there's no one way to meet everyone's needs. I mean, We know that there are a lot of people who are just kind of like, all of this new stuff is garbage, just stick to the way it was already done. And one of the arguments I hear, and I never know how to respond, so now I'm just asking you how to respond to trolls on Twitter, I'm sorry about that, but that's what you're here for, is, what about the people who say, okay, but if you're teaching in these new ways, you're now missing the subset of students that was serviced by the old way of teaching. Do you think there's anything to that? Or do you think it's like, no, the whole point is these new methods encompass more students?

Kevin Dykema: 10:41

Yeah, I think, I think different methods, it encompasses all of them. And we need to, to really make sure that we are paying attention to the needs of all the students. Not just those students who have historically been served and not just those students who are great at the sitting and getting with a variety of different things. I also often think, you know, when you talk to most adults, most adults, when you ask them, what was your experience with math? Do you enjoy math? Most adults say, I hate math. I was never good at math. So that's a great reminder to myself of, even if I have an, a parent, a caregiver who's saying, Oh, why are you trying different things? I can just remind them, Hey, you told me you hated math. You told me you're not good at math. So what can I do so that your child, the person that you're caring for, does not have that same experience. And I think we need to do a better job as a math education community of engaging our students, caregivers, and recognizing that change looks different. It's tough for us, but it's tough for a caregiver at home who's trying to help their child, when math is being taught differently than the way that they were taught, and the way that they absolutely hated. But that's their knowledge base with, with that. And, you know, especially when I think about elementary parents and caregivers, they don't want to tell their second grader, I don't know how to do your math. One of the beautiful things about teaching middle school, most of my students caregivers will quickly tell the student, I don't know how to do this, go ask your teacher. That doesn't happen, though, in the primary grades. Instead, it gets to be the parents start to feel agitated because they feel insecure in helping their kids with their homework or help provide some of that support at home that's so necessary at times.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:26

Okay. So I actually think that's really interesting because I've noticed the same pattern where like, you know, you have all these adults saying, no, don't change math. But these are also the same adults who hated math. And I've always been like, I don't understand here. But you bring up a really good point, which is that perhaps part of the reason is that if there's any hope of them helping their kids with their homework, it needs to be taught in that traditional way. But like, what a mess, because they hated that traditional way and they don't even understand. Like, The other thing I noticed though is that there are all these adults weighing in who have grown kids or like, I don't even think that's the thing. Do you think they're just like resistant to change? Like what would the resistance be?

Kevin Dykema: 13:10

Yeah, I think it's a, for some, it's a fear factor. It's a fear that if math education changes That may affect the way that I've always done something. That may affect who's taking my class, if I'm a professor. That may be a job security type thing for some. And for some it's just the change is unsettling, that the way that the school structure has always been worked for me, so people just need to adapt because it worked for me. Not recognizing sometimes that, hey, it worked for me. My K 12 math education worked fine for me, but if I'm truly interested in meeting the needs of more students and helping have a math literate society, reducing the number of people that freely admit they're horrible at math and they hate math, I've got to be willing to change and to adapt and to try different things. That does not mean that the Kevin Dykemas of today are going to, who would have done well, no matter what, my needs are still going to be met if I was a student, I'm still going to learn that content. But now instead of it being a relatively small subset, we can argue how big of a subset of students it is that needs to have been met in the past, now we're increasing, and we're having more people recognizing the value of math, and seeing that math is useful. It's not just a subject to memorize a bunch of procedures, and then flush once you get to the test, memorize a new set of procedures, flush when you get to the test, and then never do math again. I want people to recognize that math applies to the real world, that math can be used as a language to describe real world phenomena.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:51

Oh, you're an inspiration. You're, you truly are. And this, this actually really leads me though to the next big question that I have since you're, you know, such a big part of your life is, is professional development and being in that world. Like, I've always wondered this, here we are talking about how teachers need, you know, there's been a quite a drastic shift, I'd say, in math education over the past, like, what, how many years do you think?

Kevin Dykema: 15:14

Five, ten years,

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:16

well, yeah.

Kevin Dykema: 15:17

and it's, yeah, I mean

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:19

Okay, let's say five, ten years.

Kevin Dykema: 15:21

I think there's been a greater focus or a greater recognition that we're teaching students. We're not teaching content. That in the past, so much of our professional development was on, how do you teach fractions to students? How do you teach algebra to students? Now, I sense there's a shift of, how do I teach students algebra? How do I teach students fractions? That's not everywhere, but I think there's starting to be a recognition that, that student A may have different needs than student B. They may have different lived experiences. They may have different, different community environments. And we need to, to recognize that, honor that, celebrate that, and adapt how we've done things, To better build on the strengths that every single student brings to the educational classroom setting.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:11

Oh my god, this is making me think of 4, 000 questions, but I need to like just keep my brain on track. So, okay. This is so interesting. You said this because I'm also thinking like you said 5, 10 years. In the history of teaching that is like a very quick time frame and I'm even thinking about this Like I published a book with Scholastic in 2017. Okay? And that book, which I don't talk about because I don't want to get cancelled, I'm kidding, it's still a very useful book, okay, Scholastic, I love you, but it was called Math Hacks and the whole point was, it was all about like, how to teach tricks, right, like how to teach math tricks. And also, alongside that, there are 40 pages of content about identity. So stuff like pep talks for students, mental health. And it was the first math book published basically where you'd have math content alongside like, work around socio emotional learning. Sorry, I'm whispering that cause I know we're not allowed to say that in America. Anyway, so you'd, so it was like this whole thing, but it's funny cause fast forward, what, it's been six years, fast forward to now, I can't even talk about that book because the idea of a math trick is like the opposite of what we're doing. Like you said, we're trying to like, Really dig deep into how students think and emphasize the learning and all of this stuff. So that is a very short time span for me to have published this book that was like we were all about it and six years later we're like no absolutely not. Which leads me to you're a teacher, like imagine you're a teacher, a teacher who's been teaching for six years and suddenly like the whole landscape has changed. You're out of your teacher training program because it was six years ago, you've now been teaching in the classroom, and now you're expected to teach in this completely different way. And this is where I'm like, okay, so what are your options? Like you, it's, it has to be professional development, right? Like, it's not like you're, you're going back to school.

Kevin Dykema: 17:56

It's got to be sustained professional development. It can't be this professional development where you have a speaker come in for an hour and say here's what you need to do and then you never have any follow up with that. I mean, I think about a lot of the professional development I received in my career I sit in the hour session and say, Oh, what a great idea! I go back to the four walls of my classroom and like, what in the world does that look like? How do I, how do, what does that really mean in the context of my eighth grade math classroom? So I think we need to have these sustained professional developments that, you know, you get a new idea. But here's what it looks like, and oh, let's come back and let's revisit this idea again in four weeks. What have you done in the meantime to try out this new strategy, to try out this new thing? I think it's also the recognition, you know, you talk about math tricks. It's gotta be a recognition that when we used to teach really promoting math tricks, it wasn't like we were trying to be harmful to our students. It's just that we have now learned better. We have learned that that's not leading to a generation of people who are, who are truly appreciating mathematics. Right. I also think part of this move away from shift, or the shift from, you know, really utilizing tricks to get into understanding, is really because of technology. Technology has evolved to the point where students are saying, why do I need to learn that stupid trick? I can just say, hey Siri, how do you do this? And Siri will tell it correctly. Or there's an app called Photomath that I'm fairly positive that no secondary teacher says, hey kids, go home and use Photomath. But our students know about it and they're doing that. So our students are seeing this disconnect when we're trying to teach math as tricks. They're like, why? Technology will do that. And I think we're starting to recognize that when we've taught math as tricks, what I think with the message we're really sending our kids is math is so incredibly difficult to learn. And in fact, it's so incredibly difficult that I have to use tricks in order to help you succeed and get the correct answer. I'd much rather have a student who says, Hey Siri, what's the quadratic formula? And Siri can spit it back out at them, but knows what the quadratic formula is actually doing. I'd much rather have a kid that says, Hey Siri, what's the formula for the area of a triangle, or the area of a trapezoid, but understands where it's coming from and how to use it to answer real world situations.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:20

Oh my God. Yeah, this is really making me think because, you're totally right. And I also wonder, like, we're so polarized. I don't know if you know this story, but I was on like a morning television show last year and I showed the hosts, you know, the nine times table tricks with your hands. And they like, these are like two really math anxious hosts, like they hate math and they were so excited. Like their eyes lit up. They were like, Oh my God, does this work with other numbers? They were asking great questions, right? Like, does this only work with the nines? Like, why does this work? This and that. And then we got into like the divisibility rule and like, whatever. And I got so much hate. Like I had, I would wake up to a hundred messages every day being like, I can't believe you're teaching these tricks, like that's so damaging, like a teacher actually wrote to me and was like, I used to love your work, but like I saw you on TV doing a math trick and it's, and I was like, okay, let's, can we just take a minute here? Like, I get what you're saying, Kevin, right? Like, I completely get what you're saying, and I get the message that sends. But is there not a world where we teach the knowledge and understanding, and then we also have in our back pocket to reach the students who just can't get engaged this trick to have them asking, but why does it work?

Kevin Dykema: 21:34

Yes. And I think, I think in math education, and probably education in general, you know you spoke to it a little bit ago, it's the polarizations. Either you're on this end, or you're on this end, and I would argue so often, talk to a real classroom teacher. Most classroom teachers are not on this end or this end, they're somewhere in the middle. They're recognizing when do I use this approach? When do I use this approach? And I think there's a lot more nuance that's involved than what a lot of people want to admit. And I think it comes back to this notion of there's no one strategy that's going to work for every single student. And if I had that student that I've tried this repeatedly and it's not working, maybe I need to try something different to get them engaged, get them starting to recognize, all right, I can do mathematics, I can start to make sense of that. And I would argue if we're going to use some tricks, some mnemonic devices are great, I mean, there's lots of things out there, we need to make sure they understand when to use it, how to use, why to use that and engage them with that and we can't give them a steady diet of that. We've got to give them a diet that has a wide range of different things.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:48

It's funny because earlier you were like, yes, the, the way to this for teachers, since most of, you know, any teacher that's been teaching for basically over like, you know, five, 10 years was trained in a completely different way, probably has different practices. You said it's professional development. You said it's sustained professional development. And I have to be honest, Kevin, I don't, I don't know any, any teachers, I know maybe a few, but I don't know many teachers who have sustained professional development opportunities in their schools. Isn't this something that's like really lacking?

Kevin Dykema: 23:17

Very much so. Very, very lacking. And there are some places that, that say they're going to do that, but in so many different districts, it's sort of a flavor of the month. This month, we're going to have professional development on this. The next month, something completely and totally different. The next month, something completely and totally different. And as teachers, sometimes we sort of say, Ah, nice idea. Push it off to the side because we know next month, next year, there's going to be a different focus. Those places that have started to really say, all right, here's our focus for the year, here's our focus for the next two years, has started to see some, some improvement with that. And I think so often professional developers, and I'm just as guilty of that as others at times, we think we need to have this big, new, shiny object. We need to have brand new things. It's okay to say there was nothing terribly new in here, but let's put it in a different context with it. Let's take what we've known to be true for many years and let's just keep reminding ourselves, this is what it looks, give examples of what it looks like in the classroom. Allow teachers opportunities to share their successes, their challenges with each other as they're trying out a variety of different things. And at the same time, recognizing the world around our students is changing. We've got to be willing to adapt to meet the needs of our students. The technology that existed when I started teaching in 1995 looks tremendously different than the technology that now exists in 2024. I mean, email wasn't even really a thing when I started teaching. I was so excited my first year, because our principal got to select eight teachers to get an email address from the district. And I was one of those eight teachers, and I thought it was all hot stuff. Well, now we all have email addresses. We have multiple email addresses. But yet, if I'm going to keep teaching the way I started teaching in 1995, I'm not meeting my students needs. I'm not preparing them to be a productive human being.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:19

I'm just like stressed kind of like, I'm really putting this together in my head of like, if you didn't have this consistent professional development you're talking about, there's no real way for teachers to learn the new things they're supposed to be doing unless they literally on their own time go like do research and look it up. And then in my mind, and I know because you're someone who's really invested in equity, which I actually want to talk about in a sec, I'm imagining it costs money for these boards to do this professional development. And like, like, so then in my mind, I'm like, isn't there such a lack of equity? Because the only teachers who receive this professional development from their boards and schools have to belong to schools that can afford it. Am I wrong here?

Kevin Dykema: 26:02

Yeah, I think there's, I think there's lots of different pots of, of money within school boards, within school districts to, to provide some professional resources for their teachers. And I think when you do have those, those teachers who are going out and actively maybe using their own dollars to, to read books, to listen to a podcast, go to a webinar, go to a free virtual conference, there's a lot of things that don't require travel and don't require other things. But then it's on those teachers then to share some of those ideas with their colleagues. And I think when we have more of those peer to peer conversations, you don't always need to bring in a so called expert to help move the needle to meet kids needs. You've had a classroom teacher who may have read a book about math education and shares some of their big key learnings with some of their colleagues. And I think that's the direction that we need to keep moving in as well. And then all of a sudden, instead of it just being one teacher being affected, maybe you have two teachers who are being affected. Then maybe it grows to three teachers and four teachers. We have to be willing to share with our colleagues and help them learn right along with us.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:13

Do you think like that's asking a lot of teachers? Like, I'm actually just wondering, like, do you think this happens in any other profession like a bank or something, a banker, they're expected to go out and use their own resources to learn more about how to be a better banker and then to come back and teach it to the other bankers. Like, maybe I'm wrong, but like, do you think, do you think this is unique to

Kevin Dykema: 27:36

Yeah, I don't think it's unique to teaching. My wife is a social worker and we had a conversation yesterday and her social work team, they're currently doing a book study. And they went out and bought a copy of the book for those that want to participate. They're all reading it on their own time. They're having a book club meeting outside of work hours because they just want to grow in their own skills and grow in that. So I don't think it's abnormal necessarily. I do think that that teachers are expected maybe more than some other professions, but I don't, I don't ask other professions, how do they grow professionally? So it could be a very normal thing that other professions are spending some of their own dollars and resources doing that. And it's definitely a challenge. It's definitely, there's definitely inequities involved with that and, you know, it'd be wonderful if schools were able to do all of that stuff. But I keep reminding myself, if I'm truly answering the needs of my students, I've got to be willing to try to do things differently. I have to be willing to ask my colleagues, Hey, what do you think about this? What do you think about this? And start to open up some of those collegial conversations. So that I'm not just teaching the same way as I have the last 25 years, because it'd be boring to me. I want to try new ideas. I don't, I mean, sometimes people say, how have you taught A3 that long? Isn't that boring? I keep saying no, because it's different. If I were to teach you the exact same thing every single year, I mean the content doesn't change, but the kids are changing, society is changing, the instructional strategies that I'm trying are changing, and I think we need to continually push ourselves to try new ideas.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:16

I love it. I love it. I think you're right. And I, it's so true. Like, especially for yourself. I mean, in any part of our life when we're not growing, like, even like, imagine you did the same routine at the gym every day. You'd just be like, I'm bored. Right? Like, it's like, you need to, like, variety is the spice of life, spice of the classroom, whatever. Um. You know what, I want to ask you a bit about math trauma. You know, like you've been teaching grade eight math for over 25 years, which is cray cray to me, quite frankly, but very cool for you and very lucky for your students. Did you, thinking about, you started teaching in the 90s when we weren't even talking about math anxiety or anything like Have you seen a shift? Like, first of all, do you feel like you have always seen signs of math anxiety in your

Kevin Dykema: 29:59

Oh, without doubt. Without a doubt. Now we just have a name for it. And now as a society we recognize and we value students. We recognize and value humans mental health. That we recognize that it's okay if you've got a chemical imbalance. It's okay if you've experienced some of these things. Let's work our way through it and, and let's, let's continue to, to grow as human beings.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:26

When do you feel that shift happened?

Kevin Dykema: 30:28

Yeah, that's a great question. Uh, within the last 10 or so years, really since the pandemic, it has, has really become much more, much more relevant to the human beings as a whole, society as a whole. Really over the last 10 years, the sort of the shift to, you know, came back to a conversation earlier that we're starting to shift from teaching content to kids to teaching kids content. And I think the same thing is, you know, is we have this focus, we're recognizing, alright, not everybody has the same backgrounds. Some have anxiety, some have experienced trauma in the past. And we need to recognize that and honor that. And not say, oh, here's a kid who's had math trauma, they're never going to be good at math. We need to figure out what can we do to build their identity? What can we do to help them see that they are capable of learning mathematics? And not continually do the same traumatic experiences for them over and over and over again.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:30

Well, it's so funny because like, as you know, I just published a book, Math Therapy, about math trauma, and I always think about, um, How do I put this? Like just this idea of like, okay, so now we're at a point where we all can at least, you're right, because I remember I did this talk for a bunch of professors in like 2018 and I was talking about math anxiety and they literally thought I had like made it up. And that was only six years ago. Like they were like, that's not a thing. So it's like, okay, fine. So now we can all at least be like, yes, there is an emotional component to math learning, fine. But I still find there's, and I understand why, but I want your take on it. There's this, still this prioritization of like, okay, fine, there's math anxiety, but I really need to focus on how to teach this content. And like, you know, the mental health part really needs to take a back burner. Whereas like, I think you and I are kind of like, no, no, no. Because if you're teaching math to a kid who literally has shut down, it doesn't matter how good your content is. Like, it just like, doesn't matter. So like, I'm kind of wondering when, I mean, do you think it's kind of because some people still don't take mental health seriously? Like, what is it? Like, I find there's a big disconnect.

Kevin Dykema: 32:39

I think definitely so. I think there's also, I mean some of it's that they don't think it's a real thing. I think there's also this feeling of inadequacy. My training as an educator was not in how do you meet the health needs of a student. My training, my professional development up until recently was always on instruction, instruction, instruction, not on how do you take care of, of kids. And I think there's that, that, oh my goodness, I don't know what to do, so let's just sort of push it off to the side and we'll let somebody else take care of that. But I, doggone it, I know how to teach math, so I'll just keep teaching math and somebody else can take care of the mental health needs and do that. And I think it needs to be through a collective effort. We all need to be paying attention to our students lived experiences. It can't just be for, for the school counselor, the school social worker, we all need to play a role in doing that. And, as a consultant, I also need to recognize that isn't my training. There are people who have a whole lot more experience, who have a whole lot more knowledge, and I need to know when do I tap in to the, to those who have that professional background and those professional experiences.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:51

And that goes back to how we started this, of you saying it's important to know what you don't know. But like, okay, but now, Kevin, I'm like, you're blowing my mind even more. And honestly, we actually have to wrap up, but like, I don't even want to, because I 40 more questions. But like, I haven't even asked you anything I wanted to ask you, because I'm so into this convo, Because now I'm like, hold on a second. If we're kind of like, yeah, now there's a Recognization. Is that a word? It is,

Kevin Dykema: 34:15

If not, it's now

David Kochberg: 34:19

Recognition.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:21

if there's a recognition that like, yes, the mental health of our students is of primary importance in the classroom, I'm like, okay, but hold on. Shouldn't we now be including that as part of teacher training? I, like, I say this because I bet you there are a lot of teachers, I know there are a lot of teachers who are like, I didn't get into this for this, like, I really just wanted to teach math. Which, by the way, is completely fair. Like, I think it's fair to be like, quite frankly, the reason I left the classroom was like, I was like, I, oh, I don't want to classroom manage. That's not what I want to do. I just wanted to teach math. But the truth is you have to do both. And that's why I left the classroom because I didn't want to, I, you know, I wanted to teach math. And so I went a completely different route. So I think it's fair for teachers now to be like, but hold on a second. I actually have no interest, like, I really just want math concepts. And now I'm like, well, shouldn't we then, if we recognize how important this is, shouldn't we make this a part of teacher training and a part of like the qualification to become a new teacher? Oh my god, what do you think?

Kevin Dykema: 35:22

Yeah, I think that, I think it probably is, I think there are colleges of education that are spending a lot more time focusing in on, on the student's mental health issues and student mental health needs. Recognizing that, you know, as you said, if that kid's in that shutdown because of whatever is going on in their life, they're not gonna be learning anything. I get excited sometimes. I think, all right, from five, ten years ago to now, how much more part of a conversation is students mental health, students trauma? How much more is that, than the conversation now? What's it going to be like in five years? What's it going to be like in ten years, that I think we're on the cusp of figuring out how do we better meet the needs of all of our kids? And I think sometimes some of the naysayers say, Oh, you're not teaching math. No, we're still teaching math. But we're recognizing we're teaching math to human beings. And if we're not, if we're not honoring the experiences of our, of the human beings within our classroom, there's nothing that I can do to help truly meet the needs of every single one of them. And I need to continually look at what can I do to better meet the needs of all of my students. Not just those students who aren't experiencing any trauma. Not just those students who have been told their entire life, Oh, you're great at math. What am I truly doing to help try to improve math education for every single student?

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:43

Like, I just, you're so great. You're so great. You're so passionate. Um, I have to end this interview, but I have, I have to ask three, three questions. I do have to ask one question. Okay. NCTM is like next week. What is the thing you're most excited about for those going to NCTM? Like we want a, we want a little spoiler, you know, like a Kevin's recommendations.

Kevin Dykema: 37:03

The thing that fills my bucket when I go to NCTM and to many other math education conferences is just the excitement, the energy that's there. It's the reconnecting. It's working with other people who are passionate about meeting students needs. And for me, that's always a highlight. It's those interactions that I have with people. It's not always necessarily the sessions that I go to, and there are some dynamite sessions to go to, but it's really about those interactions, those hallway conversations, those quick little sidebar conversations you have after a session. That's what I get most excited for when I think about going to NCTM.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:40

You are such a president because that was like a politician's you know? Okay, I'm gonna now ask you the two final questions that we always ask our guests. Question number one. What do you say to one of your cute little grade eight students who's like, but Kevin, I'm just not a math person.

Kevin Dykema: 37:59

Yeah. That's a great question. And I think in the past we've just said, Oh, just tell them if you're a person, you're a math person, but they don't really believe that. And I think it's when I have that kid that says that, I need to figure out why. Why do they not see themselves as a math person? I need to then find some of those things that they are excelling at with that, find that student's strength with that. And sometimes I even say, all right, hey, let's think back to when you were a preschooler. You don't remember being a preschooler. I certainly was not your preschool teacher. When you were a preschool teacher, when you had five objects, And the teacher asked, how many were there? You had to count one, two, three, four, five. The teacher shuffled them up and said, how many are there? You didn't know. You had to count them again. One, two, three, four, five. But now, if you see those five objects, you're like, Oh, I know there's five objects there. That sometimes, you may think you're not a math person, because you don't fully understand the content that we're learning at that hot moment right there. But think back to what you learned three years ago. You feel confident about many of those skills that you have, so you are a math person. You may not feel fully confident in what we're doing right at this moment, But in three years, you may look back at this and say, Oh, I don't know why I was worried about that. Now I fully understand it. We've got to continue to push our kids to get to that understanding stage. Because it makes it so much more enjoyable for them and they start to see a purpose for it. And as human beings, I don't want to do something that I don't understand. Our students are going to be that the same way. We've got to get them to that understanding and help them start to appreciate the mathematics.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:34

I love that. And I have a quote for that, which is, I use this in all aspects of my life, which is once upon a time, you wanted what you have now. So this idea of like, once upon a time, you just wanted to understand. something you already understand today. I can't, I need to rephrase that, but like, that idea, I really, I really love that. I do, there's an activity in my book that I use for this called I Used to Think and Now I Know. And it's like, I used to think I'd never be able to count to five, and now I know how. I used to, and when you, when your students make a long enough list of that, you start being like, You You know, like the way you feel about math now is the same way you felt two weeks ago about a different part of math. I, I really like that. Um, final question, if there was one thing you could change about math education, what would it be?

Kevin Dykema: 40:22

If there was one thing that I could change, it would be to increase the amount of student to student discourse. That there are too many classrooms. My own classroom at times, so I'm just as guilty. Where the only dialogue is teacher to student, teacher to student, teacher to student. I need to get my students actively engaged. When my students are getting that student to student discord, they're more likely to be actively engaged. They're more likely to be able to make sense of the mathematics. And they're going to begin to have that increased motivation. So that's, I mean, if there's, if there's one thing that I would change, in fact, wave my magic wand and everybody would, would be focusing on that, it would be that student to student discourse.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:01

I love it. No one said that before. Way to go. First

Kevin Dykema: 41:04

Hey, awesome.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:06

This is why you're the president

Kevin Dykema: 41:08

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:09

Kevin, it was amazing having you on the podcast. Thank you so much. I can't wait to hang out at NCTM and join in the celebratory vibes. Thanks for being just as great of a guy as everyone says you are.

Kevin Dykema: 41:21

Well, thanks very much for the kind words and thanks for having me on this podcast and thanks for, for publishing a great book that helps us all learn about how can we better meet the needs of our students.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:33

I'm going to count that as an official endorsement. Kevin Dykema endorses Math Therapy.

Kevin Dykema: 41:37

Yeah!

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:38

Ok. Bye! Guys. I have no idea why I didn't swear that entire time. Like I'm going to have to unpack that later. Like that is very weird for me. I am still thinking about how Kevin said that his job was to know what he doesn't know. And I think that's going to stick with me for a long time and it's just something that we all need a little more of in our lives. If by the way, you're going to be at NCTM, I'm going to be there in the halls. I'm doing a little book signing, so you can grab a copy of my book at the Corwin booth, or you can order it now at maththerapy.com and I'm presenting once solo and another time with the one and only Peter Liljedahl, I would love to see you there. And whether you come to my presentation or not, I would just love to meet you and see you. So if you're going to be there, reach out, let me know. Let's meet up, high five, hug, grab a coffee, whatever. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us@maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally@themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi. That was so fun!

Kevin Dykema: 43:17

That was a lot of fun, but I will point out, I don't think you swore once this entire time. I was a little disappointed. I was waiting for it to happen.

Vanessa Vakharia: 43:27

Why the fuck didn't I swear? you know what? I'm going to swear in the intro.

Kevin Dykema: 43:31

Oh good!

Vanessa Vakharia: 43:31

In the intro and the outro. I'm going to make sure I'll make sure there's some profanity in this podcast because so we can mark it as explicit. Because don't want to break that pattern. And there is, don't worry, there's a ton of swearing in my book. It's all like bleeped out, but there are, there are lots of swear words with little like, but thank you so much for making me feel so seen as a human. Like, I really appreciate that. And the fact that you noticed that, that is active listening, Kevin.