Vanessa Vakharia: 0:03

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, so the fans have been asking. Who is this David, and how does he put up with you? And if you're not a long time listener, you might be like, who is David? And David, guys, is our producer. Like you hear him in episode. He'll pipe up when I'm talking too loud, or my bracelets are jingling, or when I say something that might get me canceled. He's the man behind Math Therapy. And I thought it was time to get him on the podcast. This conversation was wild. We talked about Joe Rogan. We talked about how math education has been weaponized. We talked about what David, who is not an educator, really thinks about the"math wars". Most importantly, though, we talked about my new book for like two minutes. If you haven't heard it's called Math Therapy. it came out on September 2nd, Keanu Reeves' 60th birthday. And it's finally available for order, if you head to maththerapy.com. It's a book for teachers on how to help every single student heal their math trauma in their classroom. Anyways, you're not here for that. You are here for David, just like I am. So without further ado. Let's get to it. Okay guys, I know the fans of the pod have always wondered about the man, the mystery, the legend, the wizard of Oz, the wizard of Math Therapy, David Kochberg. He is our producer. He's my long time bestie. He's my ex-boyfriend. We're in a band together. I know that you guys are wondering. How do you make it work? What is it like? What is it like behind the scenes? So I thought. I would interview David, and that's what we're going to do today. So David, welcome to the podcast.

David Kochberg: 2:07

Vanessa, it is a delight and an honor to be here.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:11

I just want you guys to know that before we started even recording David started having a full panic because he's like, well, I don't know what to do. I'm not even in, I'm not in control. I can't see the wave form on the screen. And, and, you know, I think that's a really good segue into, what is it like with us working together, working with somebody, David you, yourself, who is such a perfectionist, so detail oriented. And you having me to produce, who is so not detail oriented. What has it been like? Let's start there.

David Kochberg: 2:43

It has been a learning curve, but as you clearly, and in great detail, explained our entire history together, we have gone through a lot together. So I know you very well, and I know how to work with you. We'll have our little spats. Uh, we'll have our little,

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:03

What do we fight about? Like about what, what are we disagreeing about during the making of the podcast? Run the fans through it.

David Kochberg: 3:09

Well, We have opposing forms of anxiety that both annoy and compound on each others.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:18

Sure.

David Kochberg: 3:18

So it's just a matter of us just going through those motions before each recording session. I get anxious about is it going to sound good? Is, I, is the room going to be too echoey, is there going to be some noise from outside that the mic is going to pick up? What's the lighting, all this stuff. You're sitting there freaking out about all the questions that you're going to ask, or you don't even know what questions to ask but you've written a thousand questions, and then when we get to the interview, you don't ask any of them. You then just end up chit-chatting and shooting the shit with the guest.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:50

First swear word on the podcast episode. And it is from David Kochberg. Okay. So that's really, really good to know. Thank you so much. I mean, I think what's really interesting is you, so you get roped into this podcast. Can you take yourself back to when we started this, which I think was 2020, 1st season, four years ago. What you were thinking when I was like, I want you to produce a podcast called Math Therapy. Like what, and I ask this because you are not a math teacher, right? You're not a math educator, you're an engineer, which so you're kind of in STEM.

David Kochberg: 4:22

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:22

But very different than being in the education world. What were you thinking at that time about what the podcast was going to be about? And like, did you care? Like, were you like, whatever, like I'll just produce something or were you interested in the idea of math therapy?

David Kochberg: 4:36

Well, to be precise, I came on board after you had already recorded the first season's interviews.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:44

What? Who produced it?

David Kochberg: 4:46

Well, you and Sabina started the podcast and you had recorded all of these episodes, and then you needed someone to edit them and turn them into a podcast. So then that's so yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't involved in the very early germination of the seed. Seed is that a right analogy?

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:05

Obviously, I'm not going to know. So, well, so when you start editing these episodes, what are you thinking? Like you're hearing these stories. What's going on.

David Kochberg: 5:14

From a technical standpoint, I was curious about just, how does one edit a podcast? And then, because we are in a band together and over the years, I've gotten into a lot of the production, I have learned a lot about audio editing and mixing and stuff like that. So then that's why I thought, well, maybe I can try editing this podcast. And I edited all those episodes and it was a lot of fun.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:38

But what did you think of what you were hearing? The content, like these stories about math anxiety, like where you kind of like, were you interested or were you just like, I'm just editing this girl like a yammering on.

David Kochberg: 5:49

Well, I'm quite used to you yammering on.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:51

Right.

David Kochberg: 5:52

Just in general day-to-day life.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:53

Sure.

David Kochberg: 5:54

And when you yammer, you are very interesting and insightful. And coming from a STEM background myself, I found the conversations interesting. And on that first season and on subsequent seasons since you always have quite a wide variety of guests from all these different backgrounds. Like some people who have math anxiety, some people who are doing the same kind of work that you are. And it is interesting talking about education.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:23

So, you know what I'm, I'm curious for you to just actually tell us a bit about your history with math. Like what is your math history like? I, we obviously talk about math trauma on the podcast all the time. Would you say you ever had any math anxiety yourself or have experienced any math trauma yourself?

David Kochberg: 6:42

You know what, as a matter of fact, I do recall a specific instance.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:48

You do?

David Kochberg: 6:48

Yeah. Um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:50

But you were always good at math, right?

David Kochberg: 6:52

Well, so this is, this is interesting because yes, I, I think I always had an aptitude for it in elementary school, but in elementary school like, I didn't do very well in our school for various reasons. And, then for high school, I went to a gifted school, which is never a fun thing to say out loud, but alas. But however it balances out by the rest of the story, because I came in there thinking like, oh, I'm gifted. I'm really good at everything.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:26

This is why we don't label students, everyone. Go on.

David Kochberg: 7:28

Anti labels. If there's one thing I've learned from listening to hundreds of Math Therapy interviews is that labels are very damaging. Uh, so yeah, so I rolled into the first day of class there, thinking oh, I'm so advanced and I'm ahead of the curve and I'm so good at math and blah, blah, blah. And, I think I discovered that everyone else in that class was way further ahead of the curve than me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:56

Really.

David Kochberg: 7:57

And I remember the first day, I think the first day of school going to math class. And the teacher starts doing this, like this exercise. He's just shouting out numbers and he's like five plus two times seven minus three divided by seven and he's going on and on. And it's like a kind of brain test for everyone.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:18

I'm getting anxiety.

David Kochberg: 8:19

So then I got anxiety. And after like a few numbers, I'm like, I can't keep track of all this stuff. And he goes on for like a minute and then a few of the people in the class got it. And then, then they start going through the actual curriculum and then they're like going through all of this stuff that I've never seen before and all these other people are getting it. And then also it was the kind of school where. I think you could move ahead grade levels if you were advanced. So then there's kids, who's like three years younger than me who know more stuff than me. And so, I remember like, getting home that night, and my parents are all like excited about me going to this new school that we were both excited about, and me being challenged. And I'm like in tears, because I feel like I'm so far behind all of these other kids and all of a sudden, I thought I was so smart cause I get into this gifted school and actually, I don't know anything. And I feel like I was hopeless. So. I do remember that initial shock of math trauma.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:18

It's funny because like, okay. First of all, I never knew that story. And I'm thinking about how many different things there are in there that I'm like, oh my God. So, you know, using timed, timed, quick frantic ways to measure understanding. Number two, being labeled. Number three, you know, comparing yourself to everyone. Like these are, these are things that can cause math trauma, right? Like there's just like a whole bunch of them. And just this idea of like you leaving there, feeling like you're so much less than. Did that stick with you? How did you, how did you move on from that moment? Like where was there a shift?

David Kochberg: 9:56

That, is a good question. I don't really know because

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:01

Did your parents say anything to you? Like did someone like,

David Kochberg: 10:03

Well, I think it was a matter of like, Hey, this is the first day. Let's give it a little bit of time. There's going to be a transition period. And this was a very different school. And I guess that's something I've always related to your story that you, that you always tell about your academic journey and how you didn't fit in at the quote unquote regular school. And then when you get, went to an alternative school, you were able to find yourself academically more. And so that is what happened to me at this school. Kind of the identical story where in previous schools I had not really fit in and I hadn't felt challenged or there wasn't the same kind of attention or it just didn't, it just didn't work for me. for whatever reasons, but then at this school, I did end up fine. And it was a much smaller school. They were small classes. So we got to know our teachers really well and there was so much one-on-one. So I think those kinds of things are actually a parallel between our high school journeys. And so I think just initially that initial shock was a turning point. And then I, we just were like, let's not panic. Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly. Let's give it a bit of time. And then over time I did get into it and I was able to catch up to everyone. And then, and then at that school, yeah, like we would do all those, those Euclid or whatever tests like. Yeah. So they still had those. And then I started to really enjoy those because those were very problem solving oriented. And, I came to excel at math and science and really enjoy it. And then that's why I ended up going into engineering for my bachelor's.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:42

Well, for those of you who don't know, no joke, and I'm not just saying this, David is probably the best problem solver I know. Not that there's like a best way to be a problem solver, but like, I, it's actually incredible to watch you because literally any problem, whether it's figuring out how to record the podcast or even for this interview, trying to figure out how to make this one mic work for both of us while we're still being videoed while we're in the same room by different devices. Or whether it's like, I can't figure out how to, like, put a tripod together. Or, I mean, it's, it's crazy how your brain works to me. And to me, whenever I think of what math is about, I think of you. I think it's about, um, teaching somebody the skills they need to be able to creatively problem solve in any circumstance, not teaching someone how to put together a tripod, but teaching somebody how to be able to look at any problem from a variety of angles so that they can solve any problem. And I really wonder, like, have you ever considered that your ability to do that is a math skill? Oh, my God. I'm coming up with such good questions. Look, I'm stumping you.

David Kochberg: 12:49

You are a professional. Well,

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:52

Before, before this podcast, would you have considered that a math skill?

David Kochberg: 12:56

Probably not explicitly, I wouldn't say that it would be math. I wouldn't think of, and I'm trying to decide if I do, if I still, if I think now,

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:05

Oh yeah, sorry.

David Kochberg: 13:06

I think problem solving, is a component of math in general. but yeah, you get, this is getting into the semantics of like, of what is math. And so you can say math is problem solving. You can say, like some of the guests in, in recent seasons have said, that math is pattern recognition and you can draw a parallel between pattern recognition and problem solving. So there's definitely a lot of overlap. Yeah, probably listening to your conversations and to you and other educators dive so deeply into what is education? How do kids learn? How do we transfer learning and knowledge to, to students? I probably wouldn't have thought so deeply about that kind of thing, but yes, I definitely think that problem solving and math are intertwined.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:59

So the other really interesting thing I think is that you're not an educator. You're not a math educator. You like, I would imagine that before starting this podcast, you were like, how much is there really to talk about in math education? Like you go and teach math. Am I right? Like, and where I'm going with this, just to give you the full framing of the question is I'm really, I'm so curious, like now that you've seen me behind the scenes and like, you've heard all of these conversations and you've heard about all of the like crazy math wars on social media, I'm wondering how your perception of math education has changed over the past four years.

David Kochberg: 14:34

Well, one thing that popped to mind just, I've been through a lot of different education. Like I did a bachelor's and then I've also done a master's. So I, and I'm very curious about academia and I like learning just about how the world works. And I, I enjoyed learning about the academic world. And then also it occurs to me that my mom was a high school teacher and the language department head or something for many, many years. So I also have that kind of perspective of just knowing what her life as a teacher was like. Both in terms of education and then also the social and political influences on teachers and on education. In terms of the world.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:16

Say more!

David Kochberg: 15:17

Well, just like the, just budget cuts from provincial governments in Ontario that greatly affected her work and life and her fellow teachers, and just knowing the kind of stress that politics can impose onto the education system. So that, yeah, I think that all that kind of stuff has, is just part of me as well. And so that's why I think I can relate to and find interest in all the conversations that you have with your guests, about what, cause they, the same things that happened 20, 30 years ago are, have been happening the last few years. And that does lead to the math wars, which is, it's crazy. And it is really interesting that education is such a. a hot button topic or it's, it's like, to observe how heated things get is pretty crazy, where instead of people, I mean, you and the people you've talked to so far on the podcast are having very constructive conversations, but in other spaces, it's just yelling at each other or like tearing each other down and scream, and it becomes very political and argumentative as opposed to problem-solving oriented.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:36

Do you have more or less hope in our ability to change math education after listening to all these stories?

David Kochberg: 16:45

Deep, deep sigh.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:47

Like, you know what I mean? Like, are you kind of like, oh my God, this is way more of a mess than I thought it was. Or are you like, oh, look like all these people are really hopeful and wanting to do good work.

David Kochberg: 16:56

Hmm. I guess more because you do have a lot of really constructive conversations. And knowing, and also knowing the feedback that you get, that we get as a podcast, just from teachers who email you to tell you how either an episode really impacted them or when they see you at a conference and then you get the feedback that they got so inspired and that they're going to bring these strategies and perspectives into their classroom. Then you have to have a hopeful perspective that, that those little changes, even just one teacher treating one student better, that that improves the world, even if it's not like the entire overhaul of the education system or something. So it is hopeful to know that you and your colleagues and these guests are doing this kind of work. I think it still is very easy to be cynical, just because it's the way people, the way other people argue. But then also that I do feel like this is just like any other field or

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:05

is it? I always wonder this I'm like, is this like, when I think about it, I'm like, oh my God, math education is so crazy. I'm like, but hold on, this is just like the music industry we're in. Really the exact same thing, but.

David Kochberg: 18:17

Well, that's different. No, because there, I think it's anything in which politics is involved..

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:23

Right, right, right, right, right, right.

David Kochberg: 18:24

So because politicians can weaponize these kinds of things in the effort to get elected or stay elected or to sway voters. And so, like whatever, without being partisan or whatever, it's like, you can get one, party or something saying, oh, it's this other party's fault that whatever test scores are low or something. And then it just becomes, like with so many other things that are impacted by politics, it's just becomes a sport. And then you've got the people who support one party against the people who support the other party, as opposed to those people really wanting to learn, well, what is the research, what does the research say about this, this teaching method or about test scores or about timed test or something. Like, I mean, that's something as an engineer that I have always been drawn to and I feel like it is part of problem solving for me is evidence-based strategies or, or something like that. But I also recognize that many people don't think like an engineer or maybe don't have a, a STEM background where.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:33

They just don't. I'm not, I'm kind of speaking for myself here in a way of like, I don't think people don't care. I think there's so much information. There's so much overwhelm of like, how do I find actual research and dig into the fact and make sure it's not fake news, that people just can't like, they just go with something.

David Kochberg: 19:51

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:52

It's not that I don't think people care, honestly. I think that you have the people who care about evidence-based and they find evidence and I'm using air quotes from like some fucked up source, and don't even know that it's like fake news or don't care. Or B they're like, yeah, I would love some evidence, but like, I can't possibly like figure out where to dig and find actual evidence. So I'm just going to trust this person who I trust, who happens to be this politician because I'm on their side.

David Kochberg: 20:16

Yeah, it's tough. It's very hard because you talk about, I mean, what, what you were describing was a combination of media literacy and numeracy, um, and, it is very difficult, I mean, I think about this, I think about this in, in terms of society as a whole, but working with you on this podcast has helped me to think about it in terms of math education which is very interesting, I mean when, when the COVID stuff came out and like you've got science communicators trying to explain what's actually happening. And then, I mean, even me who is an engineer and understands stuff is, it was so good.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:55

Who is an engineer and understands stuff.

David Kochberg: 20:58

That's on that's on my diploma. Bachelor of engineer and guy who knows some stuff. Yeah. yeah, even for me, I, even for me, a genius. I was

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:12

A gifted,

David Kochberg: 21:13

A gifted genius, with multiple degrees, it was very confusing. And so I think about, yeah, with, with these things about politicians using these issues as kind of political wedges, it's very frustrating because, because, yeah, I feel for the people who are swayed by these arguments, because they don't have the training to understand a statistical analysis or, yeah, this whole, the anti-science movement or something, or like, that's what I was saying before, how I, found it interesting, like doing my masters. I didn't do a research based master's, but I was exposed to other colleagues in my, in my group who were doing that. So I could see all that stuff and I could see how things are peer reviewed and understand what is a meta analysis and understand how, and I also took, like, I don't understand statistics now, I couldn't do a statistical analysis now, but I took a course back then. And so I, I have a, a foundational understanding of how statistics works. So then that gives me confidence in, what a scientific paper says now. Whereas someone who doesn't have that kind of training, it's like, no wonder someone who doesn't have a STEM background, like, having a, having a, having blind faith in science, it is hard for a lot of people, if you don't really know how it works and, and it's hard to, yeah. Is this making any sense?

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:47

That makes sense. And the thing is I'm just listening to you being like in a way, politicians are weaponizing privilege.

David Kochberg: 22:52

Um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:52

Because you're, you're saying all these amazing things, but I'm listening to you and I'm like, wow. Yeah, you have the STEM background and you have these degrees. And like, I'm not saying this is the only way, but it's like, so much of that comes, you know, like there is a privileged position and being able to obtain all these degrees, and like all of this education, like we already know that. So I'm like, I, it's not like politicians don't know what they're doing, or like these like fake news movements don't know what they're doing. They know that many people have no idea how to interpret stats. So like they're kind of weaponizing our societies and numeracy. And I do think that many people, like advertisers included, like, know what they're doing. They. They should know that people don't understand the math behind a lot of the science, and they're going to use that to their advantage, to sell whatever they want to sell, whether that's a new curriculum or policy or product. Okay. I think we.

David Kochberg: 23:41

I think yes. I think your point about privilege is very fair and apt. And I think, I think it can also be, I think, a big aspect of the social divide in general that politicians can then kind of amplify or feed off of, is this idea that the word"uneducated" can sound so insulting and you can, because it's so easy to like, look at, look at the other side, look at someone who thinks the opposite you or votes for the other person and think like, oh, they're stupid, they don't get, but, I don't think, I mean, I don't think every, everyone feels that way, but there's definitely some people who are like that person, how can they vote for such and such? They like, they must be so dumb. But my point more so was like, being uneducated, I think it's not necessarily like a dirty word or pejorative or something. It is a fact. And I guess that rolls into why this, like, why all your conversations about equity and diversity and taking into a class, a account class and privilege and stuff like that in education system is so important because if people are educated to understand these kinds of things, then they have the foundational understanding of how society works, and like that basic level of, of literacy and numeracy and media literacy, but that's all, that's a lot of work that the school system has to do. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:11

Uh, okay. I mean, I was thinking like, you know, this kind of, this whole rant started with the math wars and you know, the one thing I've wanted to do is be the Joe Rogan of of math education. I've thought of us doing a season where I invite guests on specifically that I don't technically agree with. Right? Just thinking of the math wars, obviously there are sides and I really do believe that there are so much common ground that has never discussed because people want to polarize. And everyone is like, you're either on this side or that. And I've thought of having this season where I specifically bring on those who I disagree with. That's what I mean about Joe Rogan. I mean that he's not very discerning with what guest.

David Kochberg: 25:50

No, I get it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:51

I wouldn't say I'm a fan. I'm just saying that, that format. What do you think of that idea? Should I, should I do that?

David Kochberg: 25:58

Well, uh, I mean, I can advise you about how to structure an episode. About what order of guests we should put the season in. Um, you know, I can help you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:13

Are you going to answer.

David Kochberg: 26:13

Copy edit the intros and outros. Um, joking aside, I, I think it's an interesting idea. I think it's hard. it can be. risky with some guests, but I do think there's a hundred percent great value in. two people who don't agree with each other, actually

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:35

Having a conversation! Okay. So if you're listening to this right now and you have a suggestion for a guest, I should bring on, that I probably wouldn't agree with or that you don't agree with, I don't know. Just, just give us some suggestions, tweet them at us.

David Kochberg: 26:47

But even the last season, when you interviewed Chris, Luzniak, Yeah. the Debate Math Podcast.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:52

That guy is so controversial. No, just kidding. He's great.

David Kochberg: 26:56

Yes,

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:56

But what about him? Oh, the debate podcast. Oh.

David Kochberg: 26:59

Let me finish.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:00

I thought you were gonna talk shit about Chris, David.

David Kochberg: 27:02

No he's great.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:03

He's the nicest. Yeah, Chris, we love you.

David Kochberg: 27:06

Are you done? So. In that episode, he was talking about the value of people talking, even if they don't agree with each other. And, now it's one thing, if you've got someone who's just out there and is clearly intentionally inflammatory, just trying to like get clicks or likes or whatevers. That's a different story, but if it's just like, if you can get a sense that someone is arguing about something because they care.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:38

Yes.

David Kochberg: 27:39

Ultimately,

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:40

Just a different point of view.

David Kochberg: 27:41

Yeah. Not just because they're argumentative then. Yeah. I think that there is in, in education and in all aspects of life, I do think people, and this is, I think just the perils of social media, it has rewarded arguments, and people yelling at each other.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:57

Honestly, I don't know how, but it's been 35 minutes. So I know you would be telling me to wrap it up. But I know what people really want to know is what is it like working with me?

David Kochberg: 28:05

Okay. Well, I mean, it, you, we are your best friends and I, and we know each other very well. And so high level, it is a lot of fun. I wouldn't, I wouldn't spend at the, this much time working on something, if I didn't enjoy working with you on it. And if I didn't feel like the work itself is important. I think it's very, I've always been fulfilled and honored to be a part of it, because I know that there's a lot of listeners and, and teachers who follow you and colleagues and stuff who are very touched by the conversations that you have, and by your own perspective,

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:41

Okay, next, next, next.

David Kochberg: 28:43

You weren't fishing for a compliment?

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:44

No, this is a little much, honestly people are going to think that I asked you to say all this nice stuff about me. Next question.

David Kochberg: 28:48

Okay. You didn't. I'm volunteering. I was just volunteering. Trying to be nice.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:51

Thank you so much. I love it. The next question is, as you know, I have written a book called Math Therapy.

David Kochberg: 28:57

What?

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:58

And it's out and I want.

David Kochberg: 29:00

You want me to say the scripted pitch for how great the book is?

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:06

But the reason we're recording this, these bonus episodes is because I, um, wrote a book. Uh, normally we only do one season a year, but I really want to do a little something to celebrate because it's been such a huge milestone. And it all started with this podcast. And the question I want to ask you is, do you think it is dumb that I wrote a book called Math Therapy.

David Kochberg: 29:24

Do I think it's dumb. She says on the, on the eve of her releasing said book. Uh, do I think it's dumb that you, no, I don't think it's dumb that you wrote a book.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:37

What do you think? Are you like, what's the vibe.

David Kochberg: 29:40

Well the vibe, okay, but I also just, just also to attack, because you interrupted me, which is not a very nice thing for an interviewer to do. I mean, I was, and I was about to compliment how great and talented and natural a host you are. But in terms of, do I enjoy working on the podcast or what I, I also, part of it is it's a lot of fun technically. I like editing, I like assembling it, I like putting the whole thing together. It's fun. So that's another reason, you know, just for, if there are any budding podcast producers.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:09

It's for the budding podcast producers.

David Kochberg: 30:12

Go start a podcast. Pick a topic. Just hit record and then spend the next few hours just stressing over wave forms and whether or not it recorded. And if there's background noise, or maybe, maybe the fridge started humming and then you've got this little, in the background. Um, what was the question?

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:33

My book.

David Kochberg: 30:34

So I think it's great that you wrote a book, why would I think it's dumb? I think it's a natural extension of all of your work. I mean, you've got your whole life experience that has led you to your perspective on math education. You've worked closely with teenagers and students for many, many years. You're kind of like, you are a teenager in your brain. And you've developed all of these workshops and seminars that you bring to conferences around the world and share these insights and inspirations to teachers to take them to their classroom. So it is very logical that all of that stuff and the stuff that you talk about in the podcast, all can be neatly packaged in a bright pink book.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:20

And just to be clear the book, isn't like a bunch of stories of the podcast. It's how to actually take math therapy and use it in your classrooms. It's like five steps to heal math trauma in the classroom. And it's like how to do it, because I feel like in the podcast we learned about all these stories and I started realizing, oh my gosh, like math trauma is literally everywhere. And it comes in so many different ways, you know, shapes, forms, sizes, this and that, but also realizing that what we do through the podcast, this idea of math therapy, is there are actual practical applications and, well, yeah, now I'm just promoting the book, but I'm just going to do it for one minute. The point is the book is actually just 200 pages of tips and tricks and strategies and templates and resources of how to actually take math therapy and turn it into a culture in your classroom. The end, I'm done. David

David Kochberg: 32:06

Which is valuable and a great resource that teachers will have.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:10

It's out now. Go order it.

David Kochberg: 32:12

It's great that you wrote a book.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:13

David. It is time for the two final questions I ask every guest.

David Kochberg: 32:17

I was not anticipating this and I should have.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:19

Are you ready?

David Kochberg: 32:20

I guess so.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:21

What do you say to someone who says, but David. I'm just not a math person. You're so triggered.

David Kochberg: 32:29

Well, this is, it'll sound too easy, but I think the catchiest and most succinct and accurate way to put it is that there is no such thing as a math person. I agree with your tagline.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:41

Why are you saying it in that tone of voice?

David Kochberg: 32:44

I guess I just have resigned myself to not being able to on the spot come up with something original. And I'm just, I just am disappointed in myself,

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:55

But you did great, don't be so hard on yourself. Just in case anyone was wondering, David is a Taurus, which explains basically this whole interview. Final question. If you could change one thing about math education, what would it be?

David Kochberg: 33:07

Get those, get the politicians out of there. Right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:15

I think we're done. Yeah. That was actually the biggest treat. I don't, I didn't ask you any of the questions I had planned.

David Kochberg: 33:21

Just like every other interview you do.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:24

Guys. David Kochberg, the man, the myth, the legend, the Taurus, you're, you're wonderful, thank you so much for letting me do this. I know it was uncomfortable for you to be in front of the camera, in front of the mic. We all had a great time. And now is that time where I'm going to bid you farewell.

David Kochberg: 33:41

How are you going to do it?

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:42

Peace out.

David Kochberg: 33:45

Bye. Thanks for having me. Okay. Wow. That was a real roller coaster ride, even for me. And I do feel I need to say three things to end this episode. The first is, we are not conspiracy theorists. The second is I am actually really serious, and I do want you guys to send me your controversial guest ideas and by controversial, I mean like people you think I might not agree with because I want to talk to them, I want to, I want to hear the other side. And number three, well, this one is just a shameless plug. Order my book. Or at least check it out by heading to maththerapy.com. Honestly, thank you guys all so much for being along for the wild ride that is this podcast and you know what, send David some love, because he did a great, great job, and he was really nervous. You know, it takes a lot to go from being behind the scenes, to in front of the camera, and just shout out to David. We love you, boo.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:44

But I know what people really want to know is what is it like working with me?

David Kochberg: 34:48

I also have to say that this entire time, I have just been stressed about whether or not the mic is even working.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:55

How would I know

David Kochberg: 34:55

Exactly! That's how, we're not going to know until we finish until we press stop, we're not gonna know,

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:00

like the time thing says it's recording.

David Kochberg: 35:02

Yeah, sure. But what is, what is time, but a construct. Okay. Anyways, what was your question?