Rebecca MacLeod: 0:03

The goal is to have an experience. To be in the experience of the unknown. Is math really the outcome here or is it learning to trust yourself when you don't know what to do? It's okay to listen and to breathe and to ask for help, And what do I learn when I get it wrong? This isn't who you are. Your test score is not who you are. This is a way for you to get to know yourself.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:29

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay. Let me ask you something. What if math didn't have to be just about getting the right answer? What if it could actually help you connect to something bigger, like your intuition or your creativity, your true essence, or even your soul? Well, today I am talking to Rebecca McLeod, an artist, intuition expert, and generally magical human being who has one of the coolest perspectives I've ever heard about how we can experience and engage with math. I met her while I was in Indonesia this winter, and I just had to have her on the pod, the first of two bonus episodes we're sharing with you this month. Today you'll hear us talk about how intuition belongs just as much as logic in the math classroom, what sacred geometry is, and how it can help us connect with math on a spiritual level, and what happens when we stop pressuring students and start inviting curiosity. We also get into how fear shows up in learning and how to tell the difference between fear and intuition, which is actually so important because most of us have been taught to ignore both. If you've ever felt like math just wasn't for you, or you've had like this gut feeling, there's more to it than memorizing formulas, this episode is gonna blow your mind. Also, if you're a longtime listener, you're probably thinking"what is even going on with this podcast? Episodes are dropping in a random fashion, which I cannot comprehend." And you're right, but I have a surprise for you guys. We've been working behind the scenes to turn this podcast into something much bigger and more consistent. I'll tell you more at the end of this episode. Rebecca, hi. Welcome to the podcast.

Rebecca MacLeod: 2:27

Thank you so much for having me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:29

Well, this is so cool because I have not done an in-person interview since our first season. And it's so cool to just talk to someone in person. And actually, I was just thinking about this today. I was like, we just met randomly on the steps of a coffee shop in Bali.

Rebecca MacLeod: 2:43

Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:43

Okay. And where are you from? Like originally

Rebecca MacLeod: 2:45

I'm from Halifax,

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:46

Another Canadian in our midst, two Canadian girlies in Bali. I love that. For us.

Rebecca MacLeod: 2:50

Yeah. There's a feeling when I meet a Canadian, there's just like a soft feeling of home.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:56

Um, so I wanted to have you on, because I remember you came up to me a few weeks ago and you were like, oh, I hear you do work with math trauma. And you said you read Vedic astrology charts, correct? And that, you know how to see that in a chart?

Rebecca MacLeod: 3:11

I do. I mean, primarily I was looking at my own experience with math and using the tools that I have to just look back and say, oh, I have a better understanding of what happened with me and math over time, because it definitely changed.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:27

Was there a way that math was being taught to you or school was happening for you that didn't align? Like was there, were there specific things you could be like, yeah, these were the things in class or the, the way I was being treated as a student that didn't align with my way of being?

Rebecca MacLeod: 3:42

For sure. I would say there's a disconnection from what I was being taught and how this makes sense in a broader way. Why am I learning this? And what is it for? Why do I need to know these formulas? And so actually what I did get into was economics.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:01

Really?

Rebecca MacLeod: 4:01

Yeah. I, I majored in economics actually.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:03

What? Okay. That's a big plot twist I was not expecting.

Rebecca MacLeod: 4:06

Yeah. And because the logic of it appealed to me at that time. This makes sense. Now, I, I did all of that and my opinion changed dramatically of it. But, uh, but what I needed was a broader context for what I was learning. And so I came back to math quite recently, by studying sacred geometry.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:29

Oh my God. Tell us more.

Rebecca MacLeod: 4:31

So I like to embroider things. Okay. And so I, one day was in Uluwatu and I embroidered a simple pattern of four circles, and it's uh, sacred geometry pattern, a very basic one. And I didn't know why I was doing it. I just did it. I was like, oh, that's interesting. And then I went to a bookshop and there was a book and it had the Flower of Life on it. And I said, oh, perhaps that's for me. And I flipped it open to a page and the first word that I saw was the word"coptic". Okay. It doesn't matter what the word is about, but the word coptic had been repeating in my head for about three months prior.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:10

And you didn't even had never heard that word?

Rebecca MacLeod: 5:12

No, I had no association with it at all.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:13

Wow.

Rebecca MacLeod: 5:14

And I was curious because, uh, when things come in this way, there's, it usually is like a little wink, a flag, something to pay attention to. And so I knew when I saw this word like that is the association, that was the intuitive association. And I knew the book was for me. And so the Flower of Life, uh, is probably the first book to bring sacred geometry to humanity again.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:43

Okay. So I wanna hear like, what is Sacred Geometry?

Rebecca MacLeod: 5:46

So, sacred geometry is what underlies our experience of reality. The Flower of Life pattern is said to hold every possibility of experience within it. And you can derive any geometry from the flower of life. And so this was kind of, for me, a reentry into the world of mathematics because I said, oh, this is something that makes sense to me. I wanna know how math relates to experience.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:14

Who, I'm getting like, such goosebumps. There's so much exploding in my mind. Keep going. Sorry to interrupt. Go, go, go.

Rebecca MacLeod: 6:21

I think that's, that's it really. Well, I mean,

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:24

I love it.

Rebecca MacLeod: 6:24

Something about, there's, so relating to geometry in an intuitive way, you can learn so much by drawing sacred geometry figures, and you don't need anything to do it. You make a straight line and if you can make a circle, you're away to the races. You don't need anything else. It's obvious what to do. And in the doing of it, I find my energy becomes very elevated.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:47

Right.

Rebecca MacLeod: 6:48

It's alm, it's, it's meditating, but it's tuning into a greater field because this is what creates our experience.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:57

I'm having a moment of going back to your younger self being like I need to learn the context. Like why am I learning this stuff? I need to learn the context. And actually, we talk about this a lot in math education of being like, students need to know why they're doing something and how to apply things to real life. But what I'm kind of hearing now, and I don't wanna project, so let me know if this is what I'm hearing, is it wasn't necessarily that you need to needed to know, like, I need to use this formula when I calculate like the distance between blah, blah, blah. You more wanted like a purpose of the math, like a deeper meaning. Like it didn't have to be like, I can apply this formula to something. It sounds like you're like, I wanted this connected to my human experience, Yeah. which is so fucking mind blowing because it's like, I do think we miss the boat a bit when we're like, all we need to do is create a math problem like with watermelons or like, you know, we're calculating like how many TV shows this kid watches that's relevant. Whereas I've always believed that kids, even though they're kids, or. they you know, when, when we look at the blue zones and what gives people meaning, often it is purpose, it is meaning, it is like a deeper, more intangible thing, like a connection to our real lived human experience on the planet. And that doesn't always come in the material, you know, sometimes it does come in the spiritual realm. So you kind of like, I, I kind of even wanna know a little more when you're kind of talking about sacred geometry and how that spoke to you so much. How, because I also think the word spirituality gets a bit of a bad rep. You know, we're kind of like, oh, spirituality woo woo. But what I'm hearing from you is spirituality is connected to my lived experience as a human, and its deeper meaning.

Rebecca MacLeod: 8:33

Absolutely. And for me, it's, it's simply an exploration. Spirituality is me connecting to parts of me that are unseen.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:46

Mm.

Rebecca MacLeod: 8:46

But incredibly potent. What said the word Coptic to me and led me to that book?

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:51

Right.

Rebecca MacLeod: 8:52

That's an interesting question.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:53

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I love that, like that curiosity that wonder that awe, which is so ironically what we're always wanting our students to feel in math class, but then we're delivering the content to them in a way that shuts that down.

Rebecca MacLeod: 9:09

Yeah. It's, it's true. It's, when you have a room full of 12 students though, it'll be interesting to see what lights one child up versus another. And somebody may be really interested in sacred geometry, but someone else might really wanna know how this relates to how many watermelons to buy.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:28

Totally. Yeah.

Rebecca MacLeod: 9:28

What's happening in the stock market and what have you. So, I think though, not having math as an abstraction is important. That's how it felt to me. It felt disconnected from everything when I was presented with it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:42

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And okay, so, so thinking about it in that way, it's so, also so funny that you set a room of 12 students because now teachers have literally 35 to 40 students in a classroom. It's so wild. Yeah. I was like 12 students. That sounds like a dream.

Rebecca MacLeod: 9:56

Totally. totally.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:58

But it, I think that's really important is that idea of student centeredness of being like, what? We're not all the same. The things that give us purpose and meaning are actually very different. You know? Again, it doesn't always have to be connected to this very deep spiritual thing, but this idea of what gives us meaning and purpose and how, because you're, the way you're talking about it math already is that we don't have to force it to be that it is a deeper thing. It does connect to everything that's important to us and to our experience, but we need to find a way to present it that way to the people we're teaching. Mm-hmm. And we need to find a way for students to, to feel that. And I wonder, like a lot of this, again, ties into what I'm hearing from you is intuition, you know, when you saw that word, Coptic, you intuitively picked up that book. You know, you started drawing those circles. Someone wasn't like, Hey Rebecca, here's an assignment. Draw these circles. You were just exploring and playing. And I wonder how could we empower teachers to tap into their intuition when they're teaching something? And then the second part I'm just gonna ask you both at once is like, is there a tool or something they could teach their students in terms of how to tap into their intuition when they're learning math? Like how does intuition come to play in the classroom?

Rebecca MacLeod: 11:07

I think intuition serves on a moment to moment basis.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:10

Love. Yeah.

Rebecca MacLeod: 11:12

And in it purest sense, it's a yes or a no.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:16

Woo.

Rebecca MacLeod: 11:18

And it, it comes not from evaluating which math that we're evaluating, but it's, it's, it's a, coming from another place. I focus, I, I literally will ask my heart if I'm curious about which path to take.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:35

So let's, can we like play out a scenario like you're solving a math problem. Let's say like you're given a math problem and you, for most students, what happens is they see the math problem and they don't know how to do it. They can't remember the formula. They're like, I don't remember learning this. And because so many students do have a deep math trauma and have, are coming from a fear space. Like, that's the end of it. Right? So how could we guide a student with math anxiety, using intuition through just approaching that problem with, intuitive curiosity. So like, I'm giving you a math problem and you have no idea how to solve it. What would you do?

Rebecca MacLeod: 12:14

I think that I would encourage students to remember that it, it is not only logic that solves problems.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:24

Oh my God, I love it.

Rebecca MacLeod: 12:25

It is not the data processing that you have done so far in life that you can exclusively rely on, first of all. There is a higher knowing that you have access to. There's a part of yourself that already knows the answer. Now, going into a, a public school in Canada and saying this kind of thing would be an interesting experience, but why not? Are we

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:47

Yeah.

Rebecca MacLeod: 12:48

Do we want to change what we're doing or not? Yeah. So perhaps it could be an, an exploration. Um,

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:53

And and I think too, like, I, I don't think you're like saying, and correct me if I'm wrong, you're not like, I could give a grade four kid a calculus problem, and they they know how to solve the problem and they know the answer. But like, are you more kind of saying like, there's a higher knowing there's a part of themselves that might very, really have a gut instinct of at least the next question to ask?

Rebecca MacLeod: 13:14

Absolutely. And how do you listen to it? Well, then you need to be quiet.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:20

Hmm.

Rebecca MacLeod: 13:21

Close your eyes. Perhaps give the child a or, you know, the, the teenager, a breathing exercise. Something simple, something that calms. What is, what is going to be calming? And ask them to listen. Just listen. And they may get a, a nudge of some kind, however, it'll work for them. It could be a word, it could be remembrance, it could be an image. And then they can follow that and say, ah, yeah, wait. Ah, okay. And then proceed in this way. What would happen with me in high school is that I would be so nervous. It was performative.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:57

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Rebecca MacLeod: 14:00

Who am I if I get it wrong?

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:01

Right, right.

Rebecca MacLeod: 14:02

And that gets in the way of remembering anything.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:05

A hundred percent. You know, so many students actually do know the answer. They do know, you know, I used to be like this when I, my math anxiety would pop up in tests, where I'd intuitively start doing something and then my brain would kind of get in the way and be like,"no, no, no, erase that". Like, wait, like, maybe it would, you know, it would go into this really cerebral place. And it would turn out that my intuitive answer was the right one. You know? But I had ignored it to be like, I should be doing this and, and this kind of thing. So how, what's also interesting, I think, and I've been working a lot on, with my therapist, is like, how do we know the difference? Like, we have these students who are coming from a fear space, they are anxious around math. These questions are popping up. Who am I if I get it wrong? And that shuts them down. How do we discern the difference? This is a big question right? but how do we, what's a tip to discern the difference between fear and intuition? So a student who's, for example, like my intuition is telling me not to try this because like something horrible is gonna happen. Uh, versus being able to be like, that's just fear. That's not like a deep inner knowing. That's like a, or I don't know if I'm wording that correctly, but you know what I mean, like how, how could, how do we do that?

Rebecca MacLeod: 15:13

Mm-hmm. So this is something I've been exploring, I, would, I would say for 10 years.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:22

That shows like it takes work, right?'cause we're not conditioned that way.

Rebecca MacLeod: 15:25

Mm-hmm. It is what, what is, am I in a picture right now? A picture being, uh, a moment in time where I had a negative experience and I'm trying to protect myself again from that experience.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:39

Oh my God, I love that.

Rebecca MacLeod: 15:41

Or am I connected to something else? And normally if you are in a space of fear as you're speaking, oh my God, I shouldn't do this, I shouldn't do this, I shouldn't do this. That's not to your intuition speaking. That is you doing your best to protect yourself from having, a negative experience again. And intuition often is direct, clear, soft, and it's very often the first thing comes in your mind Before you evaluate it. It's the drop in, it's the thing you receive. And then you know that part of us that says, well, yes, no, maybe pros and cons and historical experiences. That's not intuition, that's mechanical.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:29

I really love this because I think, one of the things that kind of comes up. In the a a broader cultural sense is this idea that certain of us have math ability and certain don't. But again, we are all born with, you know, there, there really is no scientific studies to, to back that up. Like there's no like brain scans being like, some people have these, brain, you know, whatever. And the idea that I really think intuition could be a tool into like actually allowing everyone to tap into their natural curiosity, their natural sense of like question asking and creative thinking and, and you know, our recognizing that so much of what we do in life is tied to this beautiful math is just not necessarily evaluated in the classroom, which to me is just proof and evidence that we have mathematical intuition. And I think maybe'cause I love the idea of being like, here's a problem, you know, you put this in front of a student, here's a problem. You have no idea to solve. First instinct. What would you do? Like, just like, you know what I mean? Don't even think about it too much. What would you do? Now the likelihood is a lot of times that will happen and it will be the quote unquote wrong thing to do, let's say. Right? Like some, you know, sometimes it won't lead to the, the intended outcome that the teacher has or the answer. And I actually think that's a really good exercise to be like, even if it doesn't lead you there, that that's okay and that's part of the process. But how would you frame that for a student who's, you know, we're constantly told in math class that the goal is to get a right answer. Yeah. What's a good like, reframe of, of this? Because I really like your, this idea.

Rebecca MacLeod: 18:02

The goal is to have an experience. How about that? It's, it's to be in the experience of the unknown. So is math really the outcome here or is it learning to trust yourself when you don't know what to do? Getting a right answer, sure, that's a nice outcome. But if that is immediately the concern, then it's restrictive. You've put a boundary around the situation, so if you can make the focus as well on it's okay to not know and to listen and to breathe and to ask for help, then there's a different energy around it. And what do I learn when I get it wrong? Does it matter? Maybe I've learned something. Yeah. Maybe I've had the experience of seeing myself be in fear and then get it wrong and then I'm okay on the other side of it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:03

Yes. Oh, I love the way you're, you're putting this because I do, you know, that's such a big part of my work through math therapy is this idea of even like, you know, practicing doing things that you're probably not gonna get the intended outcome, like getting into that space. And I really love the tie in that you're making between intuition, it's that, you know, if you have an intuitive gut instinct, which is so hard for, for us to listen to, just listening to it more, and I'm just even imagining like, because I'm imagining someone being like, okay, I keep listening to my gut, but it's always like, you know, it's never leading me to the answer. But that there, there is learning in that, you know, and that learning of being able to tune into your gut, being able to tune into your intuition is always going to get you closer to action. And action is better than the stagnant place of fear and freeze. Right? Like, am I onto something?

Rebecca MacLeod: 19:55

I think you definitely are, because what creates the stagnation is the fear of failure.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:03

Yeah.

Rebecca MacLeod: 20:03

But why does it matter? Like, okay, well I've gotta get a B or an A to get into college. Well, that matters. Okay. But are we, are we in a learning process right now? The, the future oriented concerns, that's what creates the anxiety. And that's what will constrict the moment. And so the learning process being more spacious, I think is crucial. So to move into a situation with curiosity, I think is everything. I, I like to paint and make art, and sometimes I get caught up in thinking, well, what do people want? What will sell, what will they be interested in? And immediately my creativity has walls around it. That's a future concern.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:01

Could not be more relatable to me as a musician. Keep going.

Rebecca MacLeod: 21:05

Sure.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:05

I need, I need this talk.

Rebecca MacLeod: 21:06

Yeah. And so do you make something novel and of you, of your essence? in that moment? Or are you making something that's probably going to be similar to what's already been made because that feels safe?

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:18

Oh my God, this could not be more applicable to math. Like, could not be more. Because again, when we're in school, we're not doing it for ourselves. Often we're doing it for the teacher in the room or for the adult or for the grade. And we're trying to be like, how are other, we say a lot in math, that up till now most students are taught how to mimic, like you're taught how to mimic not how to think. Like, do it this way. It's called like"I do, you do" from the teacher. Um, and you're right. Like there's, there are immediately walls around that.

Rebecca MacLeod: 21:49

For sure. And it stifles the, the creativity of problem solving. I mimicked my way through college. I got an economics degree. And, you know, I would go to stats class and be like, what the hell is this? And memorize the formulas, do it in a test and be like, this is bullshit. This isn't anything.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:05

Yeah.

Rebecca MacLeod: 22:06

You can fudge, you can fudge any statistics. Yeah. But some, some students may not take the questioning that far. They may just mimic their way through and then at some point wonder, well, where, where am I? Where am I in any of this? So if, if at an earlier point it can be beyond the rote memorization of something, then I think you're going to unlock more in a student.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:31

Oh, this is beautiful. Did you, at any point, you know, when you were, uh, going through your own school experience, did you feel like you were incapable of doing math? Like did you For sure. Yeah.

Rebecca MacLeod: 22:41

Yeah, yeah. I did. I would look at something and I would feel like a, a, crunch in my mind or a confusion or a reaching for what's the right thing, what did I do last time? And I don't quite remember it. And I would be so nervous that I would be cut off from even my, my, my access to what we learned in class. And I would be frustrated, therefore I wouldn't study, and therefore I would keep showing up in a a, a way that was not, not fulfilling at all. It was, it was totally fear based. And so had my learning been in a different environment, things could have been very different. Not only, you know, math as a concept, what is this, but am I approaching it from fear or am I approaching it with curiosity?

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:30

Okay, a couple more. We're, we're reaching, I mean, I could talk to you for a thousand hours. This is so fascinating. Okay. There's another big thing I wanna talk about and I know this is gonna seem kind of in the weeds for some of our listeners, but everyone listening to this knows how much I love astrology. And one of the things that drew me to you is that you study Vedic astrology. And you mentioned that, you really believe that astrology played a role in your own math experience and in, in your, in the way you were relating to math when you were long younger. Can you just tell us a little bit about that?

Rebecca MacLeod: 24:03

So,

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:03

and tell us what vedic astrology is first, a little brief snippet.

Rebecca MacLeod: 24:07

Sure. Vedic astrology is a system of astrology. It came from India and it can help us to understand ourselves in any given moment. It's. It's like understanding what's happening with the weather, but your internal weather.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:22

I love that.

Rebecca MacLeod: 24:24

And there's something called the hermetic principle:"as above, so below"

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:31

I have that tattooed to my arm. Yeah. Oh my god. TANC, stop. Yeah. Okay. Yes. Love, love.

Rebecca MacLeod: 24:36

So I think that's the, the basis of astrology. You're like, what the hell does Jupiter have to do with anything? It's over there. Mm. Well, maybe Jupiter is also inside. In, in the realm of science, there's increasingly an understanding that life is coming from us. It's not happening out here, it's coming from us. So astrology is a way to get inside. Okay. And say what's happening outside is also what's happening inside. I'm related to the cosmos.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:06

I love that. And so tell me a bit about, looking back now, you know, we've heard about your journey through math and what was happening in school. How you've kind of been able to reflect on that from that perspective?

Rebecca MacLeod: 25:19

Right. So in Vedic astrology, you can look at different parts of your life and see dominant energies taking place at different times in your life. And you can look at your chart to see this. And as I was learning Vedic astrology, I looked back and I saw these different chapters of my life and how different strengths or challenges emerged over time. And so during a certain phase, I was very, very strong in math. And then it changed to another phase, which was more challenging my life. And I could see how math became utterly difficult for me, confusing. essentially the self-confidence changed.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:06

Like literally your relationship with it.

Rebecca MacLeod: 26:08

It did. I, I, I was no longer confident in math. And I didn't understand why I was learning it. I questioned it and I struggled to connect with it. And I could see through looking at my chart why that was. Which is an interesting thing to do. That's an interesting part of astrology is you under get to understand this system. It's actually called a Vedic mathematics.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:35

That's right. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Okay.

Rebecca MacLeod: 26:37

So it's, it's a system of probabilities, essentially. Based on an understanding of different energies, what is more likely to occur during a, a period of time or not. Now, we have free will within that, but, we can say that there are certain impressions that happen on the mind at a certain period of time, and that will impact how you live out your life. And so I, I saw my math journey in, in what I have learned so far.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:01

Wow. And you, and not to get into the nitty gritty, even though, you know, I want to, um, you, this particular thing just had to do with the moon phase you were in and the Mars phase you were in.

Rebecca MacLeod: 27:11

That's right. So the moon in my chart is very happy. It's in a good position. It likes where it is. It's exalted. The moon is the mind also, it's, it represents the mind. Okay. And so I was excelling in school. Very, very good at math. Very good at everything. Good. You know? Yeah. Good.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:28

She's using air quotes, everyone.

Rebecca MacLeod: 27:29

Yeah. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like from, from this, this way that we like to judge children. Yeah. Yeah. And uh, and then the, the chapter, it was a new chapter and this one was ruled by, by Mars, which in my chart Mars is challenged. It's not in a place that is particularly comfortable. In my particular chart, Mars is also associated with the mind. And so, things became less clear to me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:58

You know, it's, it's so interesting'cause I know we're talking about astrology and we love it, and, and we all have different belief systems and different tools of reflection or religions or spiritual manifestations. Like whatever. It's, you know, we have what the things that help us feel anchored in the world. But what I, what I honestly think is so interesting is like, you're literally just talking about phases of your life, you know, and you're using astrology to understand them. For, but for every, for all of us, we've gotta recognize that the students that we are teaching are all in different phases of their lives. Whether it's astrologically or like more rooted in the material world, or like hormonally or mentally or emotionally. Like, they're all in these different phases. And when I'm really hearing too is that like, we've gotta honor that, you know, we have to honor that and. I wonder if there is a piece, because it's so hard for a teacher with, you know, for however many students in a room to tap into what every single student is going through and what they need. You know, like how your teacher could have been like Rebecca's in Mars phase. Like, you know what I mean? Like, but I'm actually wondering as kind of a final question. We're talking so much about student intuition. Is there a way teachers might be able to use their intuition to tap into what a student needs? You know, so often we're frustrated because a student, we can tell they're in anxiety. We, we can tell they're not feeling good. They have an unhealthy relationship with math, and we don't know how to, you know, we've used all our tools and we don't know how to navigate that. Would you have any like tip for teachers of how to, how to quickly, or not quickly, how to even begin to tap into a gut feeling of what a student might need?

Rebecca MacLeod: 29:33

Well, we're talking about pressure and performance, both for the teacher and the student. Yeah. I gotta get this done. Shit, I gotta learn this versus, versus peace. And so can a teacher with 30 to 40 students in the class, I know there's a lot going on. Can they show up in a way that is loving in a moment? And create a space that's coming a little more from, from the heart. And literally just, just picture the heart or take a few moments to do that before starting. Is it possible to take a few moments to breathe with the students,

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:14

With the class, yeah.

Rebecca MacLeod: 30:15

And, and say, this is, this is an exploration we're going on together. This isn't who you are. Yes. Your test score is not who you are. This is a way for you to get to know yourself and to get to know the world.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:27

Clapping over here, everyone. Yes. I love that. And I also can't help but think, you know, so many, I love how you said pressure to perform for the teacher as well. And I, I know that so, so many incredible teachers are just, they just wanna be doing their best. They want students to feel good. And I actually really think that what you're saying, coming at it from a place of love for themselves as well. You know, like giving themselves that self-compassion to say, say, I'm just getting up here, I'm gonna do my best. I'm gonna tap into my heart center and teach from that place. will probably be really healing and peaceful for them as well.

Rebecca MacLeod: 31:01

For sure. And I think remembering that not everything is up to them and not everything is meant to go perfectly for every individual. There's lots to be learned through failure. that may be what someone is choosing to experience at that time and there's a greater, broader reason for it that has an impact later in life.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:21

I believe that.

Rebecca MacLeod: 31:22

And so it's, it's not all up to you as a teacher at all. But, to, to create an environment where people can have the experience that they're meant to have

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:32

In like a loving way.

Rebecca MacLeod: 31:33

Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:34

Oh my God, I I love that. Yeah. I think that's so important. My mantra for Bali has been,"as I let go of the need to control my life, abundance flows easily and effortlessly to me and those around me". And it's, it's funny, I've even started realizing how much I'm trying to control things that like I can't, you know, and that I shouldn't. And, and I really love that.'cause I think teachers really, they're, they're so, they want to give so much and, to really recognize we can't control everything. You know, we can give and receive. But that's, that's it. Okay. So before we wrap up, this has been just an incredible interview. So different from the ones I've had, but a conversation I really always wanted to have. And you're just so wise and coming from a place that I think is really useful. So many of us don't get to hear that perspective. It was really healing for me, even to just kind of feel like we do have an inner knowing and curiosity and wonder are the goal for students, but also for teachers and for us as humans. So there are two questions I always ask all my guests, so I'm gonna fire them at you. Ready? All right. Question number one. If there was one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?

Rebecca MacLeod: 32:40

Love. That's, that's it. To, to make it not a space of, of performance, but a space of love, which is fundamentally going to lead to a better outcome. Can we be in wonder and sweetness with this?

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:59

Sweetness. I love this. I love you. Okay, amazing. And then my final question is, if someone was chatting with you and they were like, yeah, I get everything you're saying about intuition and we know, but I'm just not a math person, what would you say?

Rebecca MacLeod: 33:16

I would be curious to know what a math person means to them. What does it mean to be a math person? To be really good at memorizing formulas, to be good at acing tests, to be good at adding up your, your grocery bill. Like what does, what does that mean? Does the people think you're good at math? Because it's, it's what is this goal in, in mind that would be interesting and to say there may be some way that you can experience math that feels really cool and fun to you. And maybe you can find out what that is.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:50

Oh, I love it. So, such a you answer to, to respond to that question with a question about the person. Right. Like, I think it's great and sometimes that asking instead of telling. Is what brings out of that person, what their deep mouth trauma is and how it can be healed.

Rebecca MacLeod: 34:04

What do they believe about themselves?

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:05

What they, yeah. Oh my God, this has been amazing, amazing. Our first interview ever in Bali, like, honestly, you're such a treat. Thank you for taking the time. Is there, do you want people to find you anywhere? Like do you have Instagram? Do you like, should they, do you have social media?

Rebecca MacLeod: 34:22

I do, um, where I post highly irregularly, so I dunno how interesting it would be for them.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:28

Okay, so, no problem. Yeah. We'll just leave you as this mysterious, intuitive woman on the podcast. Perfect. Find, find Rebecca in the cosmos. Everyone, Yeah. thank you so much for being here.

Rebecca MacLeod: 34:39

Thanks for having me. And you're doing incredible work. Truly. It's, it's a gift to make a space where people can talk about this and so that people can have a more honest experience of math and themselves. Thank you. You're welcome. Should we hug? Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:59

Oh God, We've never, all thank you so much. Oh my God. Oh, I'm not saying bye. No need. She's right here. I mean, can we just take a second to breathe that all in? If this episode sparked something for you, I mean, maybe it reminded you that your intuition matters, or maybe it made you think about your own math journey in a new way. Share it. I guarantee that someone, you know needs. To hear this message today as much as you did, so send it to a friend, post it to your story, or just DM me and let me know what resonated. I'm on Instagram at the Math guru, and I'm always up for a chat about sacred geometry, student joy, or what it means to be a math person. And hey, if you're loving the pod, a quick five star review helps me reach more people and keep these convos going. Now for next week, I have something truly special for you guys. When I was in Bali, I was doing yoga like every day, searching for meaning, blah, blah, blah, as one does. And one day my yoga teacher pulled me aside and said, Hey, I know you do this math therapy stuff. My girlfriend Charizma is terrified of math. Like, you know, she cries at the sight of numbers kind of thing. Can you help her? Well, for the next couple of weeks, charisma and I went through some intense math therapy and she was brave enough to sit down with me on the mic to share her experience. I know I exaggerate a lot, but I'm actually serious that my time getting to know Charizma was one of the most absolute highlights of my work in math education, and I learned as much from her as she did from me. So I can't wait to share her story with you next week. Now, one more thing before you go. As I said at the start of this episode, we have big things in store. Are you ready? I'm actually so excited. As of this fall, we will officially be a weekly podcast. That means new episodes every week, guys. So I wanna hear from you. If there's anyone you want me to interview, any episode ideas you have, any topics you want me to explore, dm me on Instagram, email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca. I wanna hear from you because this podcast is for you guys. Math Therapy is produced and edited by David Kochberg, and that lovely music you're hearing is by my band, Goodnight Sunrise, See you guys next week and until then, go be curious, go be kind, and go be your best math therapist self, for a friend, student, colleague, or even just for you because you deserve it.