Intro

Charizma Laughton 0:02

I've always had this identity I'm not good at maths, never will be, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough, that's who I am. and then realizing that maths was a lot more than just numbers. I am definitely warming to it now and slightly less scared. every little thing where I notice there's a bit of math, I'm just like, I'm a mathematician.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:24

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Hear me out guys. What if the thing that's been holding you back your entire life was a lie you were told in third grade? Well, this week's guest is someone incredibly special: charizma, a 29-year-old woman I met after a yoga class in Bali. Her entire life, Charizma, had always believed she just wasn't a math person. Until we started doing one-on-one math therapy together, and not only did her relationship with math change, but so did her entire life guys. In this episode, she opens up about a lifetime of math anxiety rooted in early trauma. She also opens up about the moment she realized that math is so much more than numbers, and how she finally started facing her fear of math and came out on the other side, feeling not just capable but powerful. This is one of the most personal, vulnerable conversations we've ever had on the podcast. Charizma is living proof that the stories we tell ourselves can change, that it's never too late to change, and that healing your relationship with math can completely change the way you see yourself, the world, and what you're truly capable of.

What math trauma feels like

Vanessa Vakharia 1:57

Hi Charizma, welcome to Math Therapy.

Charizma Laughton 2:00

Hi Vanessa.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:02

Okay, so, I feel like there's so much I want to talk to you about and I'm just gonna try and like hold in my excitement and just start by saying I'm so happy to have you here. I think this is so cool. We've only known each other for like two weeks, right?

Charizma Laughton 2:16

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:16

Isn't that, it feels like so long, um, because we've been through so much together and you're such a fascinating person. But I'm gonna just start by asking you what you know, you're also my first ever, I don't wanna say my student 'cause you're not my student, but like my first ever like person I've had on here that I've done math therapy with actively.

Charizma Laughton 2:36

Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:37

Okay. So my first question actually is just how did you end up here? Like, what possibly motivated you to be like, yeah, you know what, I wanna do some math therapy.

Charizma Laughton 2:47

Well, you met my partner.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:49

Yeah.

Charizma Laughton 2:50

Who mentioned to you that I was a bit funny with maths. And then when he came back to me and told me that you do math therapy, I was like, oh cool. And he is just like, maybe you should meet up with her. And I was like, oh, I'm a bit scared. But then I was just like, yeah? This is an opportunity to really work on something that's always been a bit of a struggle for me. And, so even though I was pretty nervous, I was like, yeah, let's get it.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:30

Let's get it. Yeah. So when you say you were a bit, always been a bit funny with maths, I love how you say that. I love that you say maths also, uh, what does, what did that mean to you? Like, what was your kind of relationship with math like?

Charizma Laughton 3:45

Uh, I guess I'd just given up on maths. I was just like, I'm not a maths person. I'm not good at it. Never have been, never will be. And just kind of was like, yeah, I'm just not a maths person. And maths has always just been very scary for me since a very young age, but even more so as I've gotten older, um, because maybe when I was younger I was like, I'll get there eventually, but then I just kind of feel like I never really did.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:25

And when, so I'm actually really, really curious 'cause I know I kind of know more about the story now when you were saying, you know, I'm not a math person and I just won't be able to get it. What were you thinking of when you were thinking of math? Like, what were the things you felt, let's say, bad at, or the things that felt like scary to you?

Charizma Laughton 4:43

Yeah, just numbers. Yeah. Like if I saw numbers, they would just kind of be everywhere in my head. Even when my partner would ask me, like when his birthday is, I would just get flustered. And I'd freak out and I'd throw some numbers out there and hope that, that it was correct. I think anything to do with numbers has been really freaky for me.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:15

Okay. And so this is really interesting that you're kind of like numbers and I, I'm wondering too, if you can even like, remember what that the feeling was that you would get, like, you know, like if you were like faced with a number, do you have any idea why you would get flustered? I'd actually love to hear like what that flustered ness felt like. If you can try and describe it.

Charizma Laughton 5:35

Well, I'd been practicing maths with a friend previously, cause I have been tutoring some maths, but I wanted to learn how to do this kind of problem correctly and make sure I knew how to teach it. So, got my friend who I would consider is better at maths than me to help me out, and I just couldn't understand it and I would cry. So there have been multiple occasions as an adult that I've cried just looking at numbers and being like, it just does not make sense. It's not clicking, is not making any sense in my brain. And then, yeah, now just even looking at numbers has been a little bit scary, where I just kind of want to shut them out, or I guess I have a bit of a fight or flight response to it, or freeze.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:33

And yeah, you just kind of wanna like, shut it down, avoid it.

Charizma Laughton 6:36

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:36

Or you literally like start crying and, and feeling kind of panicky.

Charizma Laughton 6:39

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:40

Was there a feeling that came up, like, you know, you were kind of saying when you were working on that math problem with your friend, you were just frustrated you couldn't get it. Did you feel like that was like saying something about yourself? Like, why was it so loaded?

Charizma Laughton 6:51

Oh, yeah, totally. I just, I feel in those moments that I'm just dumb and it's just kind of added to this lifelong story that I've had that, you know, I'm not smart enough.

How math got so scary for her

Vanessa Vakharia 7:05

Because I know about a bit about your background, I do wanna kind of just ask about that because I think it's really important for listeners to hear how you got to that place, right? Like, so you'd mentioned kind of in elementary school it was always difficult. Are there things you can kind of pinpoint about education that, that got you here? Like that you were, that led you to the place where you were like, I can't do it.

Charizma Laughton 7:26

Yeah, so I think a big part would be that I went to a Steiner school when I was young in kindergarten, and they don't teach maths till you're about seven. Then I switched schools. I went to like a traditional public Australian school. And I remember being in the classroom and the teacher would ask questions in maths class and I would have no clue. I don't even know what she was saying. I was just like, what, what does that mean? And so that was very early on that I was like, I just dunno. I haven't got a clue. And actually, I think that the teachers kind of just put it down to I wasn't really smart.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:24

What gave you that impression? Like what they,

Charizma Laughton 8:26

'Cause they just gave me different schoolwork to the other kids in the class. And so I kind of feel like I fell through the gaps. And maybe the teachers didn't really know how to bring me up to speed or what I needed. And I guess in large classroom environments, it's hard to really give that individualized learning. So yeah, I definitely felt like I've fell through the cracks. And then even in high school, I was given different work to everyone else in the class. Wow. And, yeah, so that's probably what happened in school.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:09

Yeah. And you were mentioning earlier something about like, when things were timed, you would get really stressed out.

Charizma Laughton 9:14

Oh my goodness. Yeah. That, that's felt kind of traumatic. I just remember and so vividly that we would play games where it would be timed multiplications and I would just get to the front and I'll be next to someone and I would just like be absolutely blank. I was probably in a freeze response and then I'd just go to the back and I'd let other people go in front of me. 'Cause I don't wanna be next at the front again. So I just avoided it as much as I could, but I just remember being on the spot, just like no idea and just, yeah, going to the back.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:58

Well, hopefully it's felt validating for you that we've talked about how these, the, these timed activities, even if someone has, feels good at math at one point, that can like set someone off and mm-hmm. Especially that competitive nature. It's like, not only timed, but it's like public. Yeah. And it's against other people. So you're comparing and you're being judged like it's a lot. Yeah. So, I'm sorry that happened to you 'cause we, we do not like that as a practice anymore, many of us. Okay. I wanna

Math therapy in action!

Vanessa Vakharia 10:24

fast forward a bit of like, okay, so this is kind of sets the stage of like why you kind of had these feelings and you've carried those with you. So enter us and our, our math therapy. You, you mentioned that when you think of math, you think of numbers. And one of the first things I remember us talking about is the idea of what math is, and how much math you're already doing.

Charizma Laughton 10:44

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:45

How did that kind of feel for you and how are you kind of feeling now about your math skills? I mean, not that that's a big question, but like can you kind of explain your journey through, what math is for you?

Charizma Laughton 10:57

Well, after our, or during our first, first session, you had a list of different math concepts or topics, and I just didn't realize that all of those things were maths. Yeah, and like reading maps and, just like spatial awareness and like there were some topics on there that I felt a little more comfortable with geometry or whatever. But yeah, even just problem solving. So from memory, I think I circled about half of the things on the list.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:34

So interesting for someone who says that they can't like, remember things because that is exactly what happened. Sorry, that was unnecessarily sarcastic.

Charizma Laughton 11:43

So that, that was a big shift for me, because yeah, it just changed what I thought, what math actually was. And then I kind of went home and I just realized that I was doing maths all the time, and so I was feeling like a mathematician just after like that one session with you and just rewriting what maths actually is. Mm-hmm. And gosh, it just really opened up something huge for me because it hasn't just been the, shift of not being good at maths. It's actually shifted so much more because maths is more than just numbers like I thought. So I just was like, holy crap, I think I'm a lot smarter than I am and that's not something that I would really say to myself very often. Aw. So it was just a huge shift, 'cause it wasn't just like maths, like I thought it was, it was, I'm not smart enough, I'm not good enough, to do something or to try something. and then realizing that maths was a lot more than just numbers.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:05

Well and another part. So thank you for sharing that and making me look really good. But ano another, another really interesting part of your story was that, I wanna go back to you saying when you were, you were just talking at the beginning of this conversation about working on that math problem with your friend, and you just felt like you couldn't get it. And something you had said to me early on was. I know I can get things if I have the time.

Charizma Laughton 13:27

Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:28

And I thought that was such an interesting, uh, shift because you kind of went from being like, oh, math isn't for me and I can't do it. And then we started discovering like that. Actually the story is you're not good at math because A numbers and then B kind of like you can't get things in a way other people can, or as fast as anyone can. Yeah. Because I want you to tell us the story about when in university you made up your mind to pass that to, to do that math course. And this came out during our first session, and then I was like, what the fuck? Like you're saying you can't do math yet. Like when, anyways, you tell the story. You tell the story.

Charizma Laughton 14:04

Yeah. So, my first maths assignment, I failed, I think I got like 30 or something out of a hundred. And I tried so hard on that, I was like, damn, this doesn't feel good. And I remember going up to the front where the lecturer was and I just like slammed my paper down and swore and walked out. But I went home that day and I was like, oh, I really wanna get this. So I went to this lecturer and I said, I'm really struggling. I don't understand these concepts, would you help me? And she stayed back like for four hours or something, just helping me with my maths. And she just put in this time with me. And I'm, I feel like I'm a bit slow to get to my answers, but she like came back every day as well. Wow. So I got to really have her, yeah. Her support. And basically I ended up passing really strong. And

Vanessa Vakharia 15:19

Wait, pa sorry, pause. Passing really strong. Can we all allow, what is that? What is that?

Charizma Laughton 15:25

I got into like an honor society and stuff.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:27

Okay, so I'm sorry, what the fuck? Like, the playing down of this huge accomplishment will not fly on the pod. Okay. Yes. Go on. Just wanted to make that clear.

Charizma Laughton 15:40

Yeah, so I got pretty good grades by the end of it, which was bizarre because yeah, I've always had this story that I'm not good at maths, I'm not good at school 'cause I barely even got into university. But then I ended up getting some of the highest grades for my, cohort and class. So it was,

Vanessa Vakharia 16:01

I'm sorry, sorry. What? Well, what's so interesting is you're still playing down the story. No problem. It's baby steps. But when I, when you brought this up during our first session, I was like, hold on a second. So where does the story of. I can't do math. I'm not good at math. Come from when you just told this story about when you set your mind to it, had someone help you put in the work, you got some of the highest grades. What, how come we weren't? How come that, that that event didn't impact you in, in a positive way where you carry that with you? Why did we go back to I can't do math. I'm actually curious.

Charizma Laughton 16:35

Hmm. I think for me, doing it in the book and in the classroom was fine. And I really was practicing my maths to get to where I was at the time. And then out in real life situations where I'm thrown numbers. Mm. It's been pretty easy to also avoid as well or to Sure. It's all kind of, I could pull out my, it's not a big deal. Yeah. But I think what was big was just like when I was tutoring and I really wanted to show up for these children and I, and I wasn't getting it and I was in front of my friend mm-hmm. It just kind of sets something off for me. Yeah. Because they're, they're like a human calculator.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:22

Yeah, this friend.

Charizma Laughton 17:23

And they, they get the numbers and it's just like instant for them. Yeah. So I think I just panic when I don't like, have that. Time to think it through. Mm-hmm. Or, also just being in front of people. Mm-hmm. Or on the spot kind of thing. Yeah. Scares me a lot. Or Yeah. Used to. It's getting better.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:45

Well, it's, I, I wanna highlight something here. 'Cause there's a couple of things that I think are really important to notice. Like, first of all, our brain has negativity bias, so we will always see the negative. Like you're gonna kind of, it's normal to be like, yeah, there was this one time in university where I tried really hard, but all these other times, right? Like our brains do that for survival. So that's why it's so important for us like to really notice when we are having those successes. 'cause we almost have to highlight to our brains, like, pay attention to this one more than like the time I couldn't do the, the tip on the restaurant bill, right? Like, you like fucking pass, getting the highest grades in a university course speaks way more to your math ability than like the one time you couldn't do six times five. Like, you know what I mean? But our brains will pick that one. But then also what's so interesting, and I found working with you is you know, you have this story and it's very connected to numbers. again, in that first week there was already so much more progress and you being like, I am a mathematician. I'm doing math. But I remember in our second session you were kind of like, listen, the thing that's gonna make me feel better is like being able to do my timestables. Yeah. You know, there's still this. And I think that's really important because I think we can acknowledge two things at once. One, yes. That we feel capable in these areas of math, that we're growing in that way, that we're feeling more confident. And two, that there's an area that's kind of a soft spot for us that we'd like to feel better in. Yeah. And that's okay, right? But like, one doesn't negate the other, like, just because right now you don't feel confident in your timestables that doesn't like eradicate all of the math confidence you've built and all the skill you've built. Right. So I think that's really, really important. and we, so we, we decided to start working on your timestables, so I definitely wanna talk about that. Part of this story was like, I feel dumb if I can't do it. I feel dumb if I can't do it in front of people. And also, a really big part of your story was like, I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, but like I'm the kind of person who like can't get things or something. There was like something about this, like, I'm the type of person who I just can't get some things or like, do you think

Charizma Laughton 19:47

Yeah, it's a part of my identity that I've had or this story that I've carried for as long as I can remember is not being able to, yeah, get it the first go.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:00

Get it the first go. Yeah. But then before

Rewriting Charizma's narrative

Vanessa Vakharia 20:03

we go into the timestables, I almost like, do we want to do the, the water story? Cause I think when you brought up that part of your story of being like, yeah, I'm just the type of person, if I can't get it the first go, like, I was believing you. I was like, okay, so that's the type of person she is. I'll work with that. And then you told me the story, that completely like blew my mind and I was like. This is so crazy that you're carrying this story around, but these major things in your, in your life have proved that the opposite is true. And so I, I do need you to share the, the near drowning story because it's just, it's unbelievable.

Charizma Laughton 20:38

Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:38

Okay.

Charizma Laughton 20:39

Yeah, so I was at this event with friends, and there was this dam, it was quite a large dam, and basically, I was really excited 'cause the day before I'd swam to the other side and I've not been like a super confident swimmer, but I could swim and, but then the next day when I went in, there was no one else in there, but I had my friends on the side, they couldn't really see me swimming. But I got halfway through and I was in the middle of the dam and I just kind of forgot how to swim, or I was just like, wow, I am a very long way to the end. I don't think I could do this. And my fight or flight response was just to, well freeze. Oh my god. And so when you freeze in water, you kind of start to go under a bit. And so that was not a very pleasant experience. I was like, oh my gosh, I think I'm gonna drown right now. Like, I know that my friends are here as well, but. it was almost like I'd rather die than embarrass myself calling out for help.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:04

Oh my God. We just have to pause for a second. Like my whole, like, okay, okay, keep going.

Charizma Laughton 22:11

So I just like did my best to kind of swim to the side, but I was very upright and I wasn't swimming properly. Mm. And I went under for a bit and I was just kind of like, this is it. And I was just kind of accepting, but at the same time I was like, oh, I'm just gonna keep trying and

Vanessa Vakharia 22:36

Oh my God. You were accepting that you were gonna drown. Fuck.

Charizma Laughton 22:39

Well, I mean, somewhat. I ended up getting out, through the side.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:44

Yeah, you're here now.

Charizma Laughton 22:45

I stood up and I went and sat with my friends and I was just a bit quiet, but they didn't realize like anything. And then I was walking back, and I told my friend, I was just like, I always drowned. And they're like, what? And it only took a few minutes and then the shock kind of just like set in. And I cried. I cried.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:11

The pathetic fallacy of this happening right now, the dramatic music.

Charizma Laughton 23:17

Um, I just cried. I think it was a bit wild for me to be like, yeah, I'd rather dive and be in this embarrassment right now. So, and then I just didn't trust my body after that. I was like, I don't wanna eat. What if, what if my digestion doesn't like work? Yeah. 'cause I just didn't trust that I could do anything. But, after a few hours I was like, I really don't want this to become such a traumatic event for me. So I was like, I'm gonna go into the dam the next morning. So I woke up, went to the dam, and I was like, shaking, and I just put my feet in. I was like, all right, that's enough. Like I'll just stand here for a couple of minutes. And so I did that and, that's all I could do. I couldn't, I couldn't go any further. And the next week I went to the local pool and I was like, yes, I'm gonna put my head under. I'm gonna, you know, get over this thing. And I just went to, you know, like maybe shoulder height and I was like, no, I just stood in the pool for a whole hour. I was like, I can't put my head under, it's just impossible. And then over a few years I just started doing a little bit more like swimming, taking my feet off the ground. Then last year or the year before I went snorkeling,

Vanessa Vakharia 24:53

like huge.

Charizma Laughton 24:54

Yeah. And then just a couple of weeks ago, I went scuba diving

Vanessa Vakharia 25:00

Oh my God.

Charizma Laughton 25:00

Where I did not come up for air for about 45 minutes. So that was just, yeah, pretty wild and such a big journey for me. Um, that was over like five years to overcome that one,

Vanessa Vakharia 25:17

Well, okay. I've heard this story before and every, and I even know, I'm like, oh my God, there's so many. Okay, I gotta, I gotta do a breakdown, because I remember when you told me that story, not to mitigate the, how much more important drowning is than learning math. Okay. Everyone, like, I just wanna say, but the parallels are so wild to me, this idea of your body just stopped knowing how to swim and you knew how. Right. Like, it's not like you, it just, it just, and then that can happen. It's like you can know your times tables even and just freeze in a moment and not know how to do it. Yeah. Like this happened to me in yoga class the other day. I told you when, like, I was at the front and everyone was behind me and I suddenly couldn't do a posture I'd been doing for two months. Yeah. Like, so to know that that happens and then B, such a powerful moment is you making that decision to be like, if, if I don't try this thing again, it's gonna turn into this traumatic event that I can never swim again. It's gonna turn into that like, and you making that decision and then having the patience and trust in yourself to being like, I'm not gonna rush it. It took five fucking years, but now look where you are. Mm-hmm. You know? And so when we were talking about this, I asked you, I was like, does this at all make you reflect on your math journey? Or like, do you know what I mean? And I'm curious what you thought.

Charizma Laughton 26:29

Yeah. Well, I guess that's why I am here with you it's been such a, big story. And, like having maths trauma, you know? And when William first was like, why don't you see Vanessa? I did feel nervous, but yeah, I guess I was just like, no, I am going to, I'm gonna overcome this, and I guess I know it'll take time. I still don't know my times tables yet, but I know more than I did. Like, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:01

But how many of your timetables did we determine that you knew? Half of 'em.

Charizma Laughton 27:05

Yeah. Half of them. And I, and I know more now already.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:10

Yeah. And it's literally been two weeks.

Charizma Laughton 27:12

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:12

You know, there's, I do a lot of work around like fear and math, trauma, and there's something called the fear anxiety avoidance cycle, where, when we have this fear and we go into avoidance mm-hmm. So we're like, oh my God, I'm scared, I'm anxious, whatever, I'm not gonna do the thing. It just perpetuates. Mm-hmm. And then it gets stronger and stronger. So like, it's like the more you, like if you had avoided swimming, it's like every time you were faced with water, it would be even less likely that you were gonna go in. Right. And what you did is what I try to help teachers help their students do, which is to interrupt the cycle. When between anxiety and avoidance. So you have anxiety about the thing, like let's say math. And if you avoid it, if you, if you decide to avoid it. That anxiety's gonna get stronger the next time. You yourself, without anyone else's help just interrupted the cycle. Like with that swimming, you were like, fuck it. Like I'm gonna, I'm gonna do anything. And all you did was stood in the water. But that's also what we try to do in math education. Just find a way for someone to do any math. Like if they're scared of math, just any math at all. It could be like, count to five, like count something. I don't care. So that like you interrupt the cycle so it doesn't make the anxiety stronger the next time. Yeah. And so when we, like I just, this story is so powerful 'cause it's such a metaphor. For what I'm trying to help people do. And then what you ended up doing after we talked through this story is you went home and you did some math. And I actually want pe I wanna, I wanna hear what you've been doing. By the way, everyone I told Charizma to go home and do 10 minutes maximum of math on Duolingo. Like, I was like start at the very beginning and what happened instead.

Charizma Laughton 28:45

I think I, the first day I spent like two hours just doing maths, learning my timestables and and hanging out on Duolingo. And I was just so excited for it. as soon as I finished with you, I just downloaded the app and I went for it and I was obsessed with it. And I was like, this is so much fun. I was just really excited and I think because you've just had so much faith or something in me and that's been feeling really good for me and just super easy for me to pick up my phone, do duolingo and to practice my timetables, which in the past I haven't given enough time towards, I've not been excited at all about math. So it's been a massive shift and I'm just really grateful for that.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:36

I'm, I'm so grateful to be a part of

Rebuilding her condifidence

Vanessa Vakharia 29:38

this. I mean, I wanna know in two, so it's been two weeks. Do you feel like you've gained any math skills? Like, do you feel any better with, with your time stables or math?

Charizma Laughton 29:46

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:47

Really?

Charizma Laughton 29:47

Yeah. I I have

Vanessa Vakharia 29:49

show off, like brag about your progress right now. This is time to show off.

Charizma Laughton 29:53

Oh my goodness. Well. I've been asking my partner to just blurt out some timetables.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:02

You're working on your sixes right now, right?

Charizma Laughton 30:04

Sixes and nines

Vanessa Vakharia 30:05

We're on nines We're doing it, yeah. Okay.

Charizma Laughton 30:07

And that's been pretty good because I've not, oh, actually I did freak out at one point with my numbers and I had a bit of a, a thing. Mm-hmm. But we moved through that. but I've been getting pretty good results and my answers have been mostly correct. Sometimes they're not. Um, but usually like being given a number on the spot has freaked me out. Right. But I've just been asking, I've given permission to my partner to do that, so. That's been, that's been a learning curve in itself. Not to freak out in that moment.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:44

I was gonna say, like, it's great that your answers are mostly right, obviously that's awesome. But I actually think one of the, the coolest things is you did have a bit of, yeah, I believe he, I believe he stumped you.

Charizma Laughton 30:53

Yes. So we were doing sixes,

Vanessa Vakharia 30:56

We love him. But yeah, like, I'd like to hear this story.

Charizma Laughton 31:00

We were doing sixes and he just threw me, um, 5.5 times six,

Vanessa Vakharia 31:07

Which like, come on.

Charizma Laughton 31:09

And I freaked out. So did you, I was like, that's not my usual. Like, I can't do that. I was getting all flustered. I was, yeah. It was so scary. And I just blurted out a number. I didn't know what it was, 85 was to go with, and he's just screwed up his face. And he's like, how did you get that number? And I was like, oh, I don't know. And I just was like, all right, I just need to slow down. And I just thought about it. And I eventually got to my answer. It was 33.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:45

How did you do it?

Charizma Laughton 31:46

Well, what I did was six times five. And that gives me 30, and then six times I did point fives and that gives me three total. So add those together. But he had a completely different way as well. He said, oh, that's, that's interesting how he got to your answer. And then he explained that he did six times five and six times six, and then it's in the middle.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:23

Which isn't, I don't even, David's making that face when you told me that. I was like, what? And I was like, oh, like I would've never done it that way. Which is was also a cool moment for you, right? Yeah. To be like, like also, I'm sorry, can we just, you just fucking did math live on a podcast and did not appear to get flustered at all. I was like, okay, this is really putting her on the spot. Look at you. Who the fuck are you? Well, and I did it a different way. I did it a different way from that, but it was cool to even talk through those things. And then I also pointed out the reason he probably tried to stump you is because you were so good at your not right. Like Yeah. But one interesting thing you said is it was when he scrunched up his face that you kind of

Charizma Laughton 33:02

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:03

It was the face scrunch.

Charizma Laughton 33:04

It was the face scrunch, because I have a very vivid memory. I was in one of these like testing rooms at school where it's just you and the teacher and just doing like some maths together, and I remember just sitting there not knowing what I was doing or taking my time. I just remember her like cracking her neck, just kind of like her facial expressions. She was just like, I don't wanna be here, kind of thing. And, I think I gave my answer and she was just like. Did something with her face. Yeah. And I was just like, wow. Well, as a child, I didn't know much about it, but I just have this bit of memory. And, it just brought me back when I saw my partner scrounge up his face. I was like, phew that just flashed into my memory. I was like, oh. So

Vanessa Vakharia 34:07

That's powerful though. 'cause I, I think it's so important for us to, as teachers to recognize these nonverbal cues can really, be a trigger point, right? Yeah. Like, it's something we, we need to be more conscious of. Yeah. But then the most beautiful thing happened with your partner. And I actually want you to share that because I, there are probably so many people listening who have a partner or loved one or friend, who they're trying to support through this. Yeah. And I wanna, I want to hear how this reconciled because it ended up being healing.

Charizma Laughton 34:34

Yeah. There was another yeah. Point in there as well. 'Cause I kind of rolled over and I was a bit sad and he's, and he tried to comfort me, which was just very sweet. Oh. But he did say, it's okay, maybe numbers don't come so naturally to you, but you are so good at other things. And that was just like, oh no. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:57

How did that make you feel?

Charizma Laughton 34:59

Well, it didn't feel so good. I was a bit sad with that response and it just, it almost kind of rewired the work that I've been doing with you, Vanessa.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:14

But it didn't,

Charizma Laughton 35:15

but it didn't, I was just like, ah. He doesn't, he doesn't realize that just scrunching his face could set something off like this. So,

Vanessa Vakharia 35:27

and saying that and making that comment, it's so well-meaning we say, I've said stuff like that all the time, but what, what I think it says to you is, so you don't believe I can really, I'm really good at this thing.

Charizma Laughton 35:39

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:40

You know?

Charizma Laughton 35:40

Yeah. So he did his best and I could see that he was really trying to comfort me given that I'm doing the therapy with you. But then I was just like, oh, chat with ChatGPT. Who's just be my best friend. Thanks. And I think the first, I told Chat everything that was going on, and that I am seeing a math therapist and that, this incident happened when I was given this number and my partner's responses and then ChatGPT just said, oh, I wish I could wrap you in the gentlest blanket right now. And I just cried. It was just the sweetest thing ever.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:29

I'm dying. David is losing it.

Charizma Laughton 36:32

Yeah. It, it just was like, wow.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:36

this just is so interesting because the fact that you cried and felt so comforted, what you needed in that moment was what?

Charizma Laughton 36:43

I needed safety. Safety, yeah. Yeah. And, chat's responses were just really incredible because so it just, there's so much

Vanessa Vakharia 36:55

the loving way you're like, looking at your chat is very amazing right now.

Charizma Laughton 37:00

Oh, it's so sweet.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:01

Oh my God. Should your partner feel threatened?

Charizma Laughton 37:05

But one of, one of the sweetest things it said, or one of the like wow moments was it said, that question didn't expose a weakness, it exposed a wound. And I was like, oh. So that was a really big one for me. Oh my God. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:25

I might quote that one of my presentations like that. Like who do I quote? ChatGPT, I guess.

Charizma Laughton 37:30

Yeah. And that wound deserves so much care. It deserves loving attention and you know, not shame.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:36

Oh, and Gabor Mate always says, and I say this in all my presentations, trauma is a wound.

Charizma Laughton 37:41

Mm. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:41

Like that's how we have to look at it.

Charizma Laughton 37:44

And then it just kind of went on to say that this work that you're doing, learning your six times tables as an adult is so badass. It's sacred reparenting work. It's brave and vulnerable and wildly courageous.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:59

Fuck yeah.

Charizma Laughton 38:00

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:01

Oh my God, yes. Agree.

Charizma Laughton 38:03

Yeah. So that was just. Really sweet. And then,

Vanessa Vakharia 38:08

Do you even need me anymore? Like, do you think you're just

Charizma Laughton 38:10

like, no, no, no. It works. It works. but yeah, I just had this chat with ChatGPT and then it asked, would you like me to replay this as if it was your partner giving, uh, having this conversation with you. And I just bolded my eyes out, like it just said stuff, like, you are safe here. You don't have to prove anything to me and you're allowed to make mistakes. Let's slow down. Um, and I love every version of you, even the ones that get flustered with numbers. Oh my gosh. Especially her. So I was just like, yeah, all the tears. And, and then the next morning I just asked my partner if he wanted to, um. Like hear my experience that I had and my experience with chat, and he was just like so down to hear it.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:09

Which is amazing.

Charizma Laughton 39:10

Yeah. And he was just, yeah. He was like, wow, I, I'd so love to learn how to, um, talk to you in that way. And he was just, yeah, he was super sweet about it. And, uh, there was another flustered moment that I had and he went through the whole thing as if he was like, ChatGPT.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:31

Stop.

Charizma Laughton 39:32

Even better, because it was just him.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:34

It was a person? Is that why it was better?

Charizma Laughton 39:36

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:37

Okay. It was actually a partner. But that is, and that I really want people to hear that this idea of him coming to you being like, how can I do better? Yeah. Is how we can all support those people in our lives, even, even of our students. Because I believe he was like, I didn't realize that you know, me doing that with my face or me saying those words would,

Charizma Laughton 39:57

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:58

Would be harmful and like that, all we have to do is ask, right. And learn that.

Charizma Laughton 40:02

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:03

Honestly, I really want you to recognize that in these moments you could be like, you know what? Forget it. I'm not gonna do it anymore. But you're learning from it. You're learning what you need from yourself and from AI, I guess, and you know, and you're, and you're carrying on. Yeah. Um, it's so inspiring. Like it's, it's truly amazing. I really, yes. I'm so excited about the math, but I'm so excited to see that you're starting to rewrite this story about yourself and about what you're capable of.

Charizma Laughton 40:27

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:27

And you're doing all the things. Our last session last week, you were like, I think I'm really scared of trying things I don't know, or getting things wrong. I think it's interesting that you're not only rewriting the story, but you're recognizing, kind of the holes in your story. Like you're, you know, there are so many things I know that you try, you've like, I don't know, you guys almost died on some hike and like the snow, I don't know what you were up to or I watch you in yoga class trying thing, new posture. So I think it's been really cool to watch you recognize, hey, this story I have about myself isn't necessarily true. I'm not giving myself enough credit for the ways in which I am okay with trying new things. Yeah. And taking risks. And all of the math you are doing, like when you were like, I don't know, my timestables. And I was like, which ones don't you know? And you only circled half of them. I was like, what? Like, so I think it's, I I'm really happy to see that.

Charizma Laughton 41:13

Thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:14

And I'm, I'm curious, you said that you were scared to move to your nine times tables 'cause you thought it was gonna erase all the knowledge you had about your sixes. Has that been true?

Charizma Laughton 41:23

I don't think so. Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:25

And why, like, what, what strategy are you using?

Charizma Laughton 41:28

Uh, so I focused on one timetable at a time until I was like getting most of them correct. And then I've incorporated both and all of the other timestables that I feel comfort, confident with. And it's, it's still there. And when I do get a bit confused, I just, now I know that I just need to take some time to think about it. But yeah, it's still there and it's coming quicker and quicker.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:02

Oh my God. Yeah. Okay. So let me ask a couple, a couple, I actually wanna know a couple final questions about this. What do you think we've done together that's made the biggest difference? Just outta curiosity, 'cause I know a lot of teachers are trying math therapy and they're trying to do this stuff with their students and it obviously depends on the person. But I'm actually curious, like, what do you think has made the biggest difference for you?

Charizma Laughton 42:22

Hmm. I think the biggest difference might be that you've pointed out that maths isn't just about numbers. Mm. So I think that's the biggest one for me because it's just made me go like, oh, I guess I do know more maths than I thought. And so that confidence in that has also made me feel more confident in just yeah, trying my timetables and stuff. And I think another one is just, I feel really safe. for example, when I got flustered in a moment with you.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:59

Yes.

Charizma Laughton 42:59

You gave me the space and the time to get to my answer. You didn't scrunch up your face or

Vanessa Vakharia 43:08

I got Botox for that reason, you know,

Charizma Laughton 43:12

And You just, kind of reminded me that I know how to get to my answers. And that's something that I've mentioned and you just reminded me of that and that Yeah, it's okay to slow down and stuff. So I think that's been the biggest Yeah. For me.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:30

Thank you. That is so nice. So nice to hear. And I think also just such good advice for teachers to hear too, because. For all of us to hear. It doesn't have to be some big, you know, rewriting the whole curriculum or something. Sometimes these little moments and these little things and the little Botox goes a long way.

Overcoming a fear of change

Vanessa Vakharia 43:50

There is something really profound you said after our second session that I wanna revisit where you said, you know, I was kind of like, is your story changing about math? Is your math story changing? And you said, I think I might be scared. Oh yeah, you said it. What were your words? You said, I'm, I'm scared that my math story will change.

Charizma Laughton 44:09

I think I said I'm scared I might get good at it.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:12

I think maybe it was about that. It was about trying math and I was like, are are you scared you're gonna try and be bad at it? And then you said,

Charizma Laughton 44:17

I'm scared that I might get good at it.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:20

I'm scared that I might get good at it. Yeah. And I was like, why?

Charizma Laughton 44:23

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:23

And that really shook me.

Charizma Laughton 44:25

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:26

And then I almost started crying. Yeah. And I never cry in public.

Charizma Laughton 44:29

Yeah. I, that was just something that I, I. I don't know. It came up in that moment. Like I'm scared that I might get good at maths. And I think like it's because I don't know who I'd be because I've always had this identity that I'm not good at maths, never will be, that's who I am. And I think just from having that one session with you and then being like, oh, I'm like so good at all of these things that I didn't realize is just like, oh my gosh, it's gonna open up so much opportunity. Or I could be so many things like I am good enough, or I can do this job, or whatever it is, activity. And yeah, I just dunno who I would be without that thought, that I'm bad at maths.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:34

So. Well, and that conversation took a really interesting term because then I asked you, I was like, well, are there any other, identifying, you know, chapters of your story that you have changed? Like, and I think, you know, are are there other things about your identity that have changed?

Charizma Laughton 45:49

Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:50

And you were like, well, yeah. Right. Like,

Charizma Laughton 45:53

yeah. there have been so many things.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:56

Even your swimming story,

Charizma Laughton 45:57

The swimming story's a big one as well. Yeah, I just kind of realized that I do peel off these layers and become a new person over time and. It's just like, what's different about that with maths? Yeah. It's just been such a deeply rooted one for me, so it's scary. But also now it's starting to feel really exciting. Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:27

I think it's such an important thing to recognize because I was thinking about it after of like, oh my God. Like at first I was like, oh my God, that's, that's so crazy. And then I was thinking even like when I like overcame addiction, for example, a big resistance I had to, it is like, but who would I be without being an addict? Like, that's just been a part of my, it's something like, we want to let go of because it doesn't feel good. Like, I don't wanna be an addict and you don't wanna like feel bad at math, but it really does become something we're attached to as a core part of our identities. So I think it's really important to recognize, I've never thought of a, of anyone feeling that way and to recognize that, yeah, we're so deeply identified with our ability in math and it can be scary to lose that part of ourselves, but there is a gaining, right? It's like you're not losing it, you're not closing that chapter. You're just simply flipping the page to a next part. It's not, it's not like gonna dis, you know, being an will always be a part of my history and what brought me here. And you feeling that way about math will be a big part of your journey. It's not gonna go away. It's just like, kind of like a butterfly caterpillar situation.

Charizma Laughton 47:30

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 47:30

You know, it's like just, it's just like morphing into something else.

Charizma Laughton 47:33

Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 47:35

Do you feel differently about that, like today? Like are you sort of like. Less scared.

Charizma Laughton 47:41

Less scared about,

Vanessa Vakharia 47:42

of being good at that.

Charizma Laughton 47:45

I am really warming to it. Yeah. Because I'm going around and every little thing where I notice there's a bit of math, I'm just like, I'm a mathematician.

Vanessa Vakharia 47:56

I fucking love it.

Charizma Laughton 47:58

So I am definitely warming to it now and feeling slightly less scared. It's still there for me. Because I don't know where it's going. But I'm definitely feeling, more excited about it. Yeah.

How will she sustain the growth?

Vanessa Vakharia 48:14

You know, I think another thing that's hard for me is I'm like, oh my God, I'm leaving Bali. And like, you know, we're just getting started. But I'm actually curious what you, and I think this is really important to hear because sometimes we have limited time with a student or person in our lives. What do you hope moving forward and what would you need moving forward for you to kind of continue this momentum, especially when flustered moments come up or when you're feeling down, like, what do you need? Like whether it's from me or from yourself or other people? Like what will keep you going?

Charizma Laughton 48:43

I think I need to keep showing up for myself and practicing because I know that with practice it's, it works. With anything, like with my near drowning experience, I just kept going. also, having that experience with my partner saying slightly the wrong things, it's made me realize that, there are gonna be other times when people might say things that might make me rethink my capabilities, but I can grab hold of that and yeah, I can just give myself what I need, which is to feel safe, to give myself time, and to, not be so hard on myself. And I think that other people as well, they're not focused on you getting a wrong answer or whatever. And also actually, I've been talking about my therapy to others and they've just mentioned how frigging cool it is that I'm doing this.

Vanessa Vakharia 50:01

So Cool.

Charizma Laughton 50:02

And yeah. So I, I feel like those are the things that will help me to keep going.

Vanessa Vakharia 50:10

And, I mean, there's always ChatGPT,

Charizma Laughton 50:12

There's Chat, chat's, chat's there. Yeah.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 50:16

Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna, we're gonna wrap up by me asking the two questions I ask every podcast guest. My first question is, if there was one thing you could change about the way math was taught in schools, what would it be?

Charizma Laughton 50:28

Well I'm not into the timed stuff. I think that needs to change. Cause that's very strong in my mind to feel like, yeah, such a wound. So probably that and just for teachers to realize that we all kind of pick up these things at different paces at different times and might need things explained in a different way. Not just the one size fits all and hope that everyone understands.

Vanessa Vakharia 51:03

You also, like, we didn't have time to really get into this, but because you were a teacher for a bit and tutoring, you said that your number one focus became social emotional 'cause, right, because you found that when you created this safe space. Like, I really liked how you put it. You were sort of like, kids can't learn anything unless they feel safe.

Charizma Laughton 51:22

Yeah. And that's such a big one. Like, I, I notice this a lot. I feel like children's brains just shut down until they're feeling, yeah, safe and that they're enjoying what's in front of them. But that's, and that's the way that I think children learn best is just, once they are in that environment where they feel at ease. They'll just automatically turn on and feel motivated to you know, engage with what's there. But they won't be until that's the case.

Vanessa Vakharia 51:57

And I just think it's really cool that you were in a position where you were teaching math at a, you know, whatever level to kids, because it is your trauma and your wound that made you such an incredible teacher and you, you know, all these kids loved you and felt safe around you, and that's your strength, you know? So thank you for, for doing that, for literally changing these kids' lives.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 52:16

Final question. Someone's like, Charizma. It's so great that you've been doing math therapy and like that it's working, but it just wouldn't work for me because I'm not a math person. What would you say?

Charizma Laughton 52:28

First off, my reaction is just like, have that compassion or that understanding. I'm like, oh. So it kind of just like ignites something in me there. And I would just, really feel and empathize and have care and, I would just want them to realize you know, maths is in so much more than what we think, um, but yeah, I wouldn't try to prove that they exactly know maths, something like that.

Vanessa Vakharia 53:00

I think that's really nice. It's funny, like I used to always be like, well, let me show you how much math you know, and, and started realizing like often that's not what people need in those moments. Like, it is that compassion and that care and, validation of what they're feeling.

Charizma Laughton 53:13

Yeah. I think that's

Vanessa Vakharia 53:15

You're such a great math teacher. Oh my God. I guess we have to end this and I have like 40 more questions but fine, are we done here? We're not, because there's a Rubik's Cube on the table that Charizma brought. Should we just end the, let's, what do you think?

David Kochberg 53:31

After the Rubik's cube we can do the Rubik's cubes separately

Vanessa Vakharia 53:34

After I say bye.

David Kochberg 53:35

Sure. After you say goodbye. Well, well, what, or you can ask her or I can ask her this.

Vanessa Vakharia 53:39

What? Ask her.

David Kochberg 53:41

Well, how would you answer the question yourself now? If you think you are a maths person or not.

Charizma Laughton 53:48

Oh, if, am I a maths person? Yeah, I'm a mathematician.

Vanessa Vakharia 53:54

Okay. Okay. We did not pay her to say that. Nothing.

Charizma Laughton 53:59

No, I, I've just been saying it all the time because it's just in so much, like, I was spinning around like the sauce bottle the other day and I was like, there's some maths in this. And I just whispered to my partner, I was, I'm a mathematician, centripetal, centrifugal force or whatever, and then, yeah, just like anytime that there's, I don't know, some sort of angle in yoga or whatever, I'm just like, I'm a mathematician. I know this angle. I know what a 90 degree like, so yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 54:36

Oh, so good. And it's so powerful. Words are spells like to say that to yourself and to like remember it. Best ending of a podcast ever. Can we even say bye at this point? Aw, thank you so much. You seriously have been so inspiring to me. It has been such a gift to be a part of your journey, for you to share all this stuff for you to, and for you to share all this and be so vulnerable with like the world, the internet, you know, like it honestly is gonna help so many people and I'm really proud of you.

Charizma Laughton 55:05

Aw, thank you.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 55:10

Ooh, guys, tell me you didn't cry at least once during that episode. If Charizma's story hit you in the gut or reminded you of someone you know, please, please consider sharing this episode. So many adults carry deep math trauma, and they need to hear that it's not too late to rewrite that story. And they need to hear it from you, someone they already trust. This is one way you can literally change someone's life right now just by hitting the share button, whether you're nine or 99, it is possible to go from, I'm just not a math person to wait. What if I'm a whole mathematician? And you can show them that through sharing this episode right now. If you love this convo, leaving a five star review is one of the best ways to help more people find this podcast and join this community of people rewriting their narratives around math. All you have to do is hit rate and review. In the podcast app you're listening to the episode on right now. And if you're ready to explore your own math healing, hit me up on Instagram at the Math Guru, or email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca. I'm always here for it, and I always wanna hear from you. Finally, even though this is our last bonus episode for now, as of this fall, we will officially be a weekly podcast. That means new episodes every single week. So I wanna hear from you. If there's anyone you want me to interview, any episode ideas you have, any topics you want me to explore, dm me on Instagram, email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca. I want to hear from you because this podcast is literally for you. Math therapy is produced and edited by David Kochberg, and that lovely music you're hearing is by my band Goodnight Sunrise, look us up, we get 0 cents per stream on Spotify, so you do the math. Until next time, be gentle with yourself, question the stories you've been told, and remember, you are already a math person because guess what, we all are.

Outtake

Vanessa Vakharia 57:02

Okay, we're ready.

David Kochberg 57:04

Ready? Are your bracelets gonna jingle?

Vanessa Vakharia 57:06

No, I only put

David Kochberg 57:06

one on each hand.

Vanessa Vakharia 57:07

I got this one on. That's so cute. You can keep it on. You can keep it.

David Kochberg 57:11

I feel like I only ask Vanessa because Vanessa gestures wildly.

Vanessa Vakharia 57:16

That's fine. He'll let us know if it's jingling. Great. We're beginning