Vanessa Vakharia: 0:00

Okay. We just finished interviewing Dr. Raj Shah and we're gonna do a little debrief David is fidgeting around with shit right now.

David Kochberg: 0:06

You know, just producing myself now.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:07

How, what, just start sharing your thoughts. Like what did you think?

David Kochberg: 0:12

My own thoughts. What about, look at the stand I got going on here.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:14

What about the thought of him singing John Legend, you like. You said something crazy happened in his face, in his eyes, in his head region.

David Kochberg: 0:22

Oh yeah, we were talking about memories.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:24

Yeah. Maybe let's even back it up because part of the thing is we were talking about memory and something I've always noticed with you, we have a very different skillset. What's going on?

David Kochberg: 0:32

Well, we don't need these headphones at this point.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:34

Oh, well I'm,

David Kochberg: 0:34

you can't hear yourself anyways, right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:35

I'm monitoring myself.

David Kochberg: 0:37

Oh man, you're a pro. Look at you. I've trained you well, but Well, I don't need

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:40

to, I guess. No, do

David Kochberg: 0:41

it. Keep it, keep it going.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:42

the thing is with David is I've always said David is one of the smartest people I know. He might be these, oh, I can monitor

David Kochberg: 0:47

myself. Keep going. David,

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:48

stop. I honestly don't have this much time.

David Kochberg: 0:50

No, no. You continue complimenting me while I,

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:53

okay. So anyways. I mean, I think the reason I think David, actually, that's a whole other conversation we're not gonna get into right now, but like I do think he's brilliant using Raj's words, Dr. Shah's words. But what's really interesting is David and I are in a band together, as you well know, I am very good at memorizing lyrics. Like I just, I can memorize them like right before a show. Like it's just something that I can do. Whereas David. Sometimes just forgets the lyrics to our own songs. But David remembers everything. Like I'll bring up like any TV show or movie we watch, he'll be like, oh, that actor's like blah, blah, blah. From that movie from like 19 fucking 98. Like he remembers all this stuff. And so this whole conversation with Raj made me think like, why? Like why can you remember all of those things? But you can't remember a song lyric?

David Kochberg: 1:40

That's a great question. I don't know the answer. But it's also completely different things because Yeah, but you remembering think this song lyric

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:47

could be so much easier.'cause you have so much contextual information. Like you've got, like, you've got the lyrics that come before the lyrics, after things rhyme. Like you've got music. Like,

David Kochberg: 1:57

but memorizing something like a, like a song or a poem or a speech or something, like that's a, big chunk of information to commit to memory, is different than having individual memories or or storing facts in your brain. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:12

Okay. Storing, well, like if

David Kochberg: 2:14

I've watched a movie years ago and it left an impression on me, and I create these associations between different movies by the same director or if I know what actor has been in different movies. Those things. Yeah. I'm making emotional, I guess, like kind of what we were talking about, like I'm making emotional connections because it's something that I'm interested in. A band or music, like knowing all these facts. What connects those facts to long-term storage in my brain is some emotional connection.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:44

Need to. Guess, but it's like, how many times have I learned who like the drummer of a particular band is?

David Kochberg: 2:50

Hmm.

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:50

And it's like I jump,

David Kochberg: 2:52

why? Yeah. Why does that not get retain memory? I can, it does not

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:54

say in my memory. Like, but

David Kochberg: 2:56

this gets to my other point that I was saying, which is why we're on the mic here. Which is that after Pam's podcast? Well, kind of, yeah, because I, I think this whole idea, this controversial discussion about, do different people have different natural aptitudes? That idea?'cause Yes, we were talking briefly after Pam's, because that was a hot take that she dropped. and I mean, she did agree that there's no math gene, so I think it's like every, everyone's basically on the same page. But I think the idea that some people have a natural aptitude towards different things. I don't think that that in itself is a negative or limiting thing. I think it's that that can then be amplified into a limiting thing where kids can get the message that they can't overcome that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:47

Mm. I think I just need, like, I just, I need to talk to a neuroscientist or something because I feel like

David Kochberg: 3:55

not just me

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:57

like it, because I mean, I just feel like every time I talk about this with a neuroscientist or brain-based learning specialist, the idea, well, it's not that you're wrong, but they would say, like, from what I've heard, the, I, it's, it's such a small percentage of people that actually have these like quote unquote inclinations, but I'm only, I, I don't know, I feel like, but is it, that's the, I don't know.

David Kochberg: 4:21

and and the other thing is I think everybody probably comes at this debate from their own personal perspective'cause how can you not? So it's very subjective, but, so what I was gonna say, because you were talking with Raj about, you guys had talked about drawing and or being good at art, being good at drawing. So if I think of myself and my skills, many of which you noted, thank you very much. But yeah, drawing is not one of my skills. Now look, I took art classes when I was a kid. And I loved art, but at no point in my life, like I could draw I mean, still at this point, like an a ridiculously childish Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle cartoon. His handwritten actually not very great either. I'll be honest. Yeah, I know. Honest. But so yeah, my, my ability. I would never, I, I don't think that I have a natural ability for drawing at all. Whereas I, I feel like I've met people who've had no training in drawing, like you, have you ever been, have you ever taken lessons or like learned how to draw?'Cause I've seen you draw or paint before and you're really good and I

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:26

It's true, but, okay. Is it like,

David Kochberg: 5:28

is that something that you ever learned?

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:29

Um, I've taken art class, I took art classes and stuff when I was younger. Like I always liked drawing. I, I see, this is the thing'cause it's like I have a million questions for you then where you're like, I, at no point was I ever good at drawing. I would be like, how much of your free time when you were younger did you spend drawing versus doing other things? Did you spend a lot of time drawing or did you only draw in art classes? Did you spend, like, I think my point is, but

David Kochberg: 5:53

did you spend a lot of time drawing? Yeah. Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:55

a lot. I loved drawing. That's like what? Like one of the things I did a lot, I drew a lot. I doodled, I like, I did take, it's not like I was taking like professional art classes, but I was always actually in some sort of art thing and like I, I also, like, I had a sketchbook and like, you know, I was like this emo kid, so I was always like making all these drawings and sketches and because I had ADHD that was my way of focusing in the classroom. I always drew while the teacher was talking. I've always done that. So like, it was something I spent a lot of time doing. I would, I would also argue, I think one of the reasons this is such a hard discussion is we cannot test it. Because we can't put two babies, like I was always like, if we could put two BA babies in, like on a desert island or like in a box, like I would never do this, with no context, then we could tell we can't parse away. This is like what Dr. Sarah McKay said. In a way, it's like you can't really remove, uh, the way someone is from the experiences and the environments they've had. And you can't just say, well, two, we both grew up in the same household. Because even if you both grew up in the same household, you watched different shows, had different friends, people said different things to you, may have been treated differently based on kids get treated differently based on a perception of natural inclination. Like a parent will be like, oh, he was counting his toes, he must, I'm gonna buy him Lego like, oh, she was doing this. I'm gonna buy, like, I'm just saying there's so many factors. It's really hard to say, were you born with a natural inclination? How could we test that? Yeah. They've done these studies with twins, by the way. Yeah. They've done these, these studies with twins who like we're raised by completely different people like this, that the other thing. Yeah. And they've turned out complete. But again, you're not saying that. You're saying Yes, I guess. Well,

David Kochberg: 7:32

so what I'm saying is that I wonder about this conversation is once again, just like what you were discussing with Pam, when people debate this stuff, how much of it is really just coming down to semantics. Where when I'm saying a kid might have a natural aptitude, or a natural inclination, I'm kind of using those words interchangeably and I'm, and my, I'm using them to say, what is it that draws a kid to something? And I feel like it's a natural affinity towards something like a kid. Just like you're saying, you were drawn to drawing. Pun.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:16

But I, no pun intended, but I can't say that. I can't say that's why. Like what do you mean? I was drawn to,

David Kochberg: 8:20

you used that example of drawing and saying, when I was saying that I didn't spend that much time drawing, so that's probably why I'm not a good artist.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:27

It could be one reason.

David Kochberg: 8:28

Yeah, one. But you're saying by comparison.'cause I had noted that you are good at it, but it weren't like trained. But you were saying you just spent, this is more than 10,000 hours thing, like you just spent way more time drawing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:39

So I wasn't allowed to watch tv.

David Kochberg: 8:42

Oh, well I spent a lot of time watching tv,

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:43

but, so this is what I mean, it's like what's a natural inclination there Is this not, I wasn't allowed to watch tv, so I had a lot more time on my hands,

David Kochberg: 8:50

but I've never been drawn to expressing myself through drawing, whereas. Like May, maybe it's'cause I didn't discover that. Maybe if we had both discovered that, oh, you could process your feelings through drawings. Maybe if we did that at the same time. Or maybe, maybe I

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:03

saw someone do it and I was really taken by that. Like maybe I literally walked down the street during a fair and saw a caricature artist. Like we're influenced by all these tiny, and maybe that got me interested in it.

David Kochberg: 9:13

Yeah. But I feel like both things can be true at once. No, but you're

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:16

saying natural inclination, which implies ner nature because.

David Kochberg: 9:20

And that's why I just don't think it's such a bad thing to say that because, but it is.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:24

If you, you're but, but you and I

David Kochberg: 9:25

are different people. Every single person is a unique snowflake and has.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:28

Yeah, but the difference is if you're saying someone's born that way or not, if you're not saying that, which it turned out Pam was not saying, then I can get on board. If you're like, yes, we develop different inclinations based on environment and experience. I'm down with you. If you're saying people are just born with different, talents and inclinations towards things, I am just not convinced. And I think it's problematic because then we get into being like some people are born better at things than others. And then, I don't

David Kochberg: 9:57

know, but that's a value judgment that that then is being placed. And I feel like it is being placed in, in a, through no fault of your own, but like I feel like that is, is coming from like a defensive place because you are overall trying to combat traumas and anxieties around math that kids really for sure go through. But I feel like it doesn't have to be like the pendulum swinging all the way to the other end of the extreme, because you hear, I mean obviously I don't have kids, but like lots of my friends have kids and like I often hear parents talking about their kids and can say their personality was evident from when they were a kid. So that's the thing is yeah, some things about us, like you can say, I know I think of, one family, like two friends of mine who have four kids and all four kids are wildly different. Right. And I mean, I don't, I don't know their entire kid's life story, but like, think where theres no I what you're saying, but there's where there, uh, Two of the kids are extremely outgoing. Like one kid is, uh, insanely outgoing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:00

Yeah.

David Kochberg: 11:01

And just like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then one kid is so shy and introverted. Now, I don't know, maybe there's like reason, I don't know the kids that well, but like maybe there's reasons that they, maybe in relation to one another, but like through their whole lives as I've known these, these kids, like seen them like every year.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:19

How old is the introverted one versus the other one?

David Kochberg: 11:22

Younger, a few years younger.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:24

Okay, so can you, couldn't it, but how much couldn't it be that the loud uncle, but like, I can remember one takes up it, it has MA has affected the other one. The other one's introverted because they're under the shadow. Like the shadow of I anything could be. Sure. But, but that's, it's important to be like, is it an environmental thing or is it just the way they were born? That is important. Yeah. Because when you talk to people this way, because what's gonna happen is these parents very well meaningly are gonna be like, oh, you were always this out. You were always this introverted, whatever. And people get it in their heads that then they're born this way. It's not that they can't overcome it, but you know what, that's my, like, I was born like this, it's gonna be harder for me to be extroverted and like did like I, I know what you have wrap. But that's more of

David Kochberg: 12:02

like a messaging thing and that's,

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:05

well, and we also don't know if it's true. once again, I think it comes down to semantics where we are sort of arguing semantics, because I think both are true. I think I do think like nature is a thing, you're right. I do think people are born in certain ways, but I don't think that that means that they are necessarily imprisoned by those things. They're not. But I think that there are fundamental things that. Are part of our personalities at birth, even though we're little babies. I do think that there just are ways that we are, it's just like, just like physically, like you're born with a certain face. Correct, correct. And the face is totally different from every other face. So I think similarly, emotionally, intellectually, you're gonna have a different brain than every single other person. And we do. It's true. Yeah. But so then

David Kochberg: 12:53

I don't, I don't think of those as a, a prison, but I think it's a starting point. And then I hundred percent agree that your environment and what you're exposed to and opportunities and privileges or lack of privileges and the way and what teachers you encounter and what if you've got Scrabble Lego representation and Oh yeah. Like what you see on media. Like for sure you're influenced by all of this stuff. And so that's why, yeah, of course. I agree with your overall message and premise that it, so yeah, I see, I see why it is a message that you're fighting against the idea that kids are born a certain way and popped out of the womb, as you say, being good or not good at math. So I think it is just an interesting complex,'cause it can't be proven necessarily, exactly. So it's an interesting philosophical discussion, this one. Which is, is it something that's so important to like, dispel or like eliminate this concept that kid could be born with a natural affinity towards something more so than another kid when, as long as what you're fighting for, ultimately, that we're building education systems and supports to teach kids that regardless of how you're born, if you want to be, let's say, quote unquote good at math, or if you want to like master math, it doesn't matter if you are more naturally inclined or not, it's like, I dunno, just with dance, like if, think of some kid, or skateboarding or something, like some kid might, there's lots of kids out there who love skateboarding and they want to be the best skateboarder in the world, but you just see them and they're like not that good. Like they don't have, they don't just like hop on a skateboard and instantly are awesome and doing kick flips, whereas some other kid has

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:44

never tried it before and they get on, he's never tried and

David Kochberg: 14:46

they just jump on and they're like, oh, this is easy. Yeah. But then I'd be like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:48

what other experiences do they have? Do they play other sports? Like what? Like, yeah. Look, I get what you're saying and I think maybe at the end of it is because we don't fully know, although I'm gonna do a call out for if anyone has some thoughts about this, to please send them in regardless. It's the messaging around it that I think we can both agree on is the bigger issue. It's like regardless, the messaging around it should be like, okay, cool. Maybe there's some differences in the way, you know, our affinities when we're born, but they're so minor, this is what I like to say, nature for the most part, the influence of nature on our ability and aptitude is so minor compared to what nurture can do, and I think that's the more important thing is like, like you said, when you read a Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell, it's the 10,000 hours that vetoes any nurture. Not in every case. Yeah, and I agree there are, there are, you know, there's obviously disability and some extreme differences, but like in many cases, so we do have to wrap this up because you have another interview. Oh, um, oh yeah. Oh, four minutes. Yeah. But I wanna say this has been an excellent debate with you, my producer, and I'm very curious what people think. Oh, if there's someone you know that I can interview about this that would be like an expert on this, let me know if you have. Thoughts about this yourself. If you just wanna share your opinion or evidence or anecdotal evidence, send them in because I'd like to continue this discussion. I think it's a very important one, and we'd like to hear from you. You can text the podcast by going to the description of this episode at maththerapypodcast.com. That's a lie. Yes, it's not. No, it's not. You can go there. You can text the podcast.

David Kochberg: 16:18

You can text the podcast in the description of this episode in your podcast player.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:22

Great. Go do that. Oh, any podcast player, it'll be there.

David Kochberg: 16:25

Yeah. Okay. It's in the, the, like when we say show notes, like it's in the description of the episode,

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:30

it's in the description of the episode. You can also email me, Vanessa, at themathguru.ca with a voice note. If you're comfortable with us playing it on a future episode of the podcast, that'd be great. You can DM me on Instagram@themathguru. Let us know what you think.

David Kochberg: 16:41

So many ways to get in touch.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:42

How, what do you think of our discussion here? How much of our ability and affinity comes from nature versus nurture. What do you think? Does it even matter?

David Kochberg: 16:51

Yeah, the, the last thing I'll say, just'cause I wanted to, okay. Just'cause I want the last word, now all of a sudden I got a mic, so, you know, the path feel of power is,'cause I also feel like, I can't think of examples, but like there's lots of other times in your work where you're saying like, you're trying to tell students that what they see isn't the truth or something. Where it's like this, like students might be complaining about something in the, in the class and you're like, no, no, no, no, this is the way, or like, this is, this is important because of this or something, and then they're like, but this is' what I'm observing. I can't, it would be better if I had an example, but I don't at the moment. We're, we're, but I, I get what you're saying. My point is like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:28

we don't wanna gaslight

David Kochberg: 17:29

a kid might feel. They're in class, like a kid just might feel in the moment, like, my friend is getting this stuff way faster than me, have a natural ability. And you could like try to be like, well, no, brain based science says this and that, but to them they're just like. It's hard for me. It's not hard for them. And I mean, I've even been as brilliant as I am. Like, I mean, I've talked where people can listen to the other class. I mean, yeah, we can get this another time, but like I remember in, in university there were times in engineering class, what, not engineering class, but like in calculus first year I had no idea what was going on. And another friend of mine just got it so quickly and to me I'm like, yeah, I'm a smart guy, but this guy, he just gets it effortlessly.

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:13

But would it have helped you for someone to have been like, oh, proven fact. He has more natural ability than you? No, no.

David Kochberg: 18:18

My point is that like I think he had a more natural ability to just get that concept, but that didn't mean that I couldn't get it. It just mean I needed to do a little bit more work to get it. And so I think the point is for the point I'm trying to make ultimately is that, that for a kid, I don't think it does them any service to be like, we have proven there's no difference fundamentally in people's natural ability because it defies what they kind of observe their experience.

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:43

I get it. You think it helps them to be like, okay, well at least there's a reason why I'm not getting this

David Kochberg: 18:47

No, no, not necessarily. I'm just, I think the focus should be more on like, even if there is slight difference in people's natural ability or natural inclination, it doesn't matter that much because everyone can learn the same stuff. It just might take different paths for you to get there instead of focusing on like, we must dispel this myth that some people have more of a natural ability, I think. I think that that's more important and also more in line with like your overall work.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:17

I'm gonna have to really think about this.

David Kochberg: 19:19

Yeah, no problem.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:19

Cause I can see what you're'cause. As I told Raj during our episode, one of my amazing superpowers, one of my amazing superpowers is I can always see both sides. So I can see both sides. I'm gonna have to sit with this.

David Kochberg: 19:28

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:28

Goodbye everyone. We have an interview in two seconds.

David Kochberg: 19:30

Let's wrap it. Bye. Goodbye.