Rob Baier: 0:03

You coming at any educator, saying why aren't they teach in the way that I learned, my question to you is, did you like math? Do you want us to still teach it the way that you learned it? So you're saying you don't like math, you hate math, math isn't your thing, math isn't your jam. But you want us to teach your kids the same way. That's crazy.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:25

Okay guys. Oh my God. I just got back from 40 days on the road speaking to educators across North America about Math Therapy, and I feel like I've just like arisen from a fugue state. Like what just happened? I literally left sunny Palm Springs, 10 hours later, I was in snowy Toronto. It has been a wild ride. It was just so cool to see so many teachers wearing their new Math Therapy merch, and I literally almost died when I found out that my book sold out at two of the conferences I was at. Like, what? Huh? Thank you guys so much. I don't know, I just, I learned so, so much from all of you and all of the teachers there and all of the incredible educators. And I also have to say that what I really learned is that our collective obsession with the six seven situation is not slowing down anytime soon. It's ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense. We all hate it, but when life hands you lemons, you make a podcast about it. So before we get into today's interview, I wanna try something with you guys.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:24

If you or a teacher or parent you know has found some way to incorporate this like six seven nonsense into your kids' learning, I want to hear about it. I've heard some stories about this and I thought this is a great example of meeting kids where they are and incorporating what they're interested in to get them invested in learning, no matter how completely ridiculous we think it is. So, text the podcast with a brief story or send a voice note by Instagram DM or by email to vanessa@themathguru.ca. Links for those are in this episode's description. I wanna hear from you. Alright, onto today's episode.

Vanessa Vakharia: 1:58

So this crazy teacher conference tour I've been on has been truly incredible, both for the thousands of inspiring teachers I've met, and also the incredible network of other innovators in the math ed world trying to fix the broken parts of the system. That's why I've been so excited to have Rob Baier on the podcast because guys, he's one of the most passionate, inspiring math educators I know. And honestly, I love him even more for the authentic, loyal friend that he is. As I've gotten to know Rob more and more over the past 40 days, I've realized how rare it is to meet someone who always stands up for what they believe in, won't back down when they sense bullshit, and truly has his heart set on what is best for those around him. And that's why today's conversation is so special because Rob does not hold back. As usual, I went in with a plan and then instead of following that plan, I just asked him the first thing that popped into my mind, and that sent us down a rabbit hole debating how our assessment systems contribute to math anxiety and trauma, why we became so obsessed with getting every student into calculus in the first place, and what student learning has in common with binging an entire season of Ginny and Georgia. Rob shared so much practical advice for teachers and generally like made me snort laugh multiple times in this episode.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:09

Remember, if something makes you go, oh my God, you can always pause, share this episode with a friend you want to yell about it with, and text the podcast if you have any thoughts by hitting the link in the show notes. So guys, here we go. I cannot wait for you to meet my friend, the one and only Rob Baier.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:29

Hello Rob. Welcome to the podcast.

Rob Baier: 3:31

Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:36

You host your own podcast, don't you?

Rob Baier: 3:38

I do. Is this how we're gonna do this? Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:41

I don't know. That's just what came outta my mouth. I just,

Rob Baier: 3:44

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:45

just occurred to me.

Rob Baier: 3:46

own podcast with Chris Luzniak, who is, his book is Up for Debate. Our podcast is called Debate Math. I don't know what to do with my hands.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:55

Okay. The reason I brought, first of all, this is an audio podcast. No one's gonna be watching the video, so don't even worry about that. Okay. The reason I brought that up is a, it just occurred to me, and I just say the first thing that comes into my mind, because I have no filter, this is just how it works. But it occurred to me as I said it. I was like, okay, you host your own podcast called Debate Math, which is all about having conversations and talking about the nuance of topics that can feel very heated.

Rob Baier: 4:20

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:21

This is a nice little segue because we've interviewed Pam Harris on the podcast, and the reason I know Pam Harris is because we both debated the value of algorithms on your podcast. One thing that I think is really cool about you now that we've like kind of become friends is you and I love talking about things and kind of dissecting them and being like, well, what about this side? What about that side? And something I've always admired about you is that you share a quality I have, so really I'm just complimenting myself, which is that we're often able to see many sides of something. So we don't like to jump to conclusions like we're, we don't wanna write something off. We're very often like, well, yeah, I can see that side, but then am I overthinking it and am I do it? Like we talk a lot like that, both of us. I kind of wanna know what is the thing in math education right now that you feel like you're kind of on the fence about, that you're having trouble picking a side? Is there something you can pick more than one, but right now, what's top of mind when I say that? What's the thing for you?

Rob Baier: 5:18

Wow. Um, Maybe around this idea of, of assessment like, what is assessment? are we assessing for? And it kind of comes out as is like grades. then I'm like, okay, well then it sounds like it's not an issue within, do we have assessments or are we assessing, the issue is the educational system, the focus and impact on grades. So like, how do we shift that? Like my, so me being on the fence is like, do we have to play by the rules because of the rules that are, that were dealt with. And how do we continue to honor, like what actual assessment is, like assessing do students actually understand a certain concept? And are we in the moment where you know, I, I believe in like spiral learning trajectories and are we in that moment where we're assessing the student for on mastery, but they're not in the moment of mastery? it is kind of a nuanced discussion.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:18

You said a bunch of words that, okay, I'm gonna need you to define a few of the words you said. 'cause you just like casually were like, I believe in a spiral curriculum. What is that?

Rob Baier: 6:26

Spiral learning trajectories. Okay. So a spiral, oh, This is perfect for this podcast. Let's talk

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:34

Okay.

Rob Baier: 6:35

Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:35

Oh my God, I can't wait. Yeah.

Rob Baier: 6:37

I am curious for you, what's something that you're binging right now? Like that, that you sit down, you've binged, like what's

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:43

Yeah.

Rob Baier: 6:44

What is it?

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:45

Ginny and Georgia.

Rob Baier: 6:46

Okay, so, and like you sat down all in one setting, like setting and like you've like one where like you may

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:51

over three days?

Rob Baier: 6:53

three days you watched like a whole like series or something like that, right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:57

Yeah. Like I couldn't stop. I was like, oh my God, I can't wait to watch. Yes, yes.

Rob Baier: 7:01

if a month from now, if we came back and I said, Hey, what were some of the things that happened during that? Like what were some of the details you wouldn't be able to recall all of it. You'd be able to recall parts of it, but what you would remember would not be as much as what you would remember right at the end of it. Correct.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:18

Okay. Yep.

Rob Baier: 7:20

Way back when we were younger, back in the day when

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:22

Hmm.

Rob Baier: 7:23

was weekly things and we're talking about like, let's say Thursday nights, you know, I know this is gonna date myself a little bit, but Thursday nights Friends is on. Right? Or

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:33

And Who's the Boss?

Rob Baier: 7:35

the

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:35

Yep.

Rob Baier: 7:36

Meets World or you know, like all of these

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:38

oh yeah.

Rob Baier: 7:39

you know, Fresh Prince of Bel Air, like that was Friday nights. But like, the fact that I

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:43

You remember the days of the weeks? Why do you remember that?

Rob Baier: 7:47

on like ABC or whatever and

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:48

Oh, yeah. Okay.

Rob Baier: 7:49

So anyway, so when we're, when we're thinking back to that, like what happened between like an episode and another episode, we had time in between. Right? And that time in

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:00

Mm-hmm.

Rob Baier: 8:00

socially, what were we. We were

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:04

Talking about it,

Rob Baier: 8:05

And we are processing

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:07

like, oh my. Yeah. Okay.

Rob Baier: 8:08

conversations and like, you know, throwing things out there because like, oh, I wonder what's gonna happen next? And like, you

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:14

Yep.

Rob Baier: 8:14

all this stuff. Right.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:15

In between weeks. We'd be talking about the episodes. We'd be like, oh, I can't wait till next week's episode. What do you think's gonna happen?

Rob Baier: 8:20

Yeah. So full circle back to what is a, spiral, trajectory. it, it's where we're teaching students like not to mastery in the moment, but we are, building something that continues to circle back and cycle back. And in between they're applying like the, the little skills that they're learning they're having conversations and like, you know, it's not, and this can happen over weeks and as we're building towards mastery as opposed to, you know, like teaching in units, similar to binge watching where students would have a lot more success right after a unit, right, on an assessment or on, you know, in how they are having success and like math. That's the difference between the two. Like the one's like a more unit like driven, the other one's spiral where it's coming back, learning trajectories are how students learn mathematics, like if this, then that. So, for instance, you were at our session at NCSM when we built the 17 times tables.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:19

For People who dunno what we're talking about, it was very, very cool. Like no one knows their 17 times tables off by heart. So Rob was showing us a way that we could build the 17 times tables tapping into knowledge we already have, as opposed to mastering them by memorizing. So for example, we could probably, most of us could say what 17 times one is,

Rob Baier: 9:41

Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:42

It's 17, we already know that. How can we use that to figure out what 17 times two is? We could even add them together if we wanted and get 34. Now it might be hard to get to 17 times three, but if we have 34 is 17 times two, we could maybe use that knowledge to go to 17 times four, because we know it's doubling. That's prior knowledge. Okay. Anyways, I don't know if that was necessary. Go on.

Rob Baier: 10:07

actually a hundred percent necessary. A learning trajectory would be things like, you know, we, we skip count, coming out of, you know, second grade we are able to skip count by twos and fives and tens, right? So it's natural to start when you start to introduce multiplication to go back to talk about doubling, because the idea of doubling is a foundational skill for addition. And so we can start with doubling and counting by twos. and then we get into building the twos timestables. So we're multiplying by two. And then once we multiply by two and build the twos times tables, we're not mastering, we're just building those. And then we build the five times tables. And once we know the twos and we know the fives, and we also talked about doubling the natural progression would be fours because twos and

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:52

huh.

Rob Baier: 10:53

we know twos and fours, natural progression would be eights.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:58

Eight. Okay, but sorry, back me up. What does this have to do with spiraling?

Rob Baier: 11:02

This is the learning trajectory piece. How students should learn mathematics or can learn mathematics like in a sequential way. Like if they know

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:09

Okay.

Rob Baier: 11:09

know this, then they know this, then they know this. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:12

We're building on prior knowledge.

Rob Baier: 11:14

knowledge. So like once you build the twos, then we learn the fours

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:18

Okay.

Rob Baier: 11:19

the idea of like how we were all taught, we're gonna learn the twos, now we're gonna memorize the threes, now we're gonna

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:25

Right. Okay. Okay.

Rob Baier: 11:27

memorize the

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:27

I got it.

Rob Baier: 11:28

and so on. um, and then for whatever reason, sevens, you know, are right after sixes. Right? Well, in learning trajectories, like when we start thinking about how the brain actually, you know, is processing this. Sevens are last,

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:40

Why are sevens lost?

Rob Baier: 11:41

Twos, fives, fours, because we got two and four. Once we go fours, then we go eights

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:49

Because we're doubling every time, so we already understand that.

Rob Baier: 11:52

we come back

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:52

Then what?

Rob Baier: 11:53

back to threes. 'cause once we know twos and fours, we can use deduction, deductive thinking to get to threes. Now we know twos and threes, so naturally it's gonna be six. And then once we

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:07

Oh, 'cause we can now double the, we can double the three to get to a six. Oh my God, I love it. Okay.

Rob Baier: 12:11

And then from sixes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:12

okay. And then.

Rob Baier: 12:13

then from sixes we go to nines. And then, uh, the last one is sevens. 'cause sevens doesn't really have a connection unless you're a massive American football fan. You play Madden and you just count by touchdowns.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:24

I dunno what that means. Okay, great. So what we were talking about is really the idea of, as we started this talking about assessment, just to bring us back and the idea of when we're as teaching by unit, we are then assessing at the end of every unit we're assessing mastery. But the problem is the unit on quadratics is over, now we've moved on to trigonometry. Months later a student has to take an exam and they're like, wait, what the fuck? I don't remember anything I did before because I've never looked at Quadratics again. Now that we've moved on to trig. Whereas with spiraling, we would slowly be introducing these pieces. We would circle back, we would move for opioid, you know, can I just tell you that one time I actually walked into a PD session called "Spiraling the Curriculum", I think it was called, and I read it as spiraling over the curriculum and I was like, oh good, this is gonna be about like anxiety and like freaking out about the curriculum. And I went into the session and they were showing all these diagrams of how you could teach this stuff. And I was like, fuck. That is not, that is not what I thought I was doing here. Um, okay, so, you, you're on the fence about the idea of assessment and why we're doing it in a way, like, it's like, is that it? This idea of like, what is it for?

Rob Baier: 13:32

no, I think I'm on the, the, it's more about being on the fence on do I wanna fight the fight against grades or do

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:40

Well, my God, yes.

Rob Baier: 13:41

and,

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:41

Okay.

Rob Baier: 13:42

then, but that, see, but that's a, it's tough because like in education, I think many of us, would be wanting to fight against grades. But then you have like the social aspect of grades, and then there's also like, you know, like schools are still ranking in high school and like, there's like all these things that we kind of know are not really right, you know, in the grand

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:03

well.

Rob Baier: 14:04

But like, we still overemphasize grades and we overemphasize other things. And it's like, okay, so, but, but assessment for like, what assessment really should be is like, what does a student know, coming in, what do they know now, how can we, you know, like find out where they're struggling and, and you know, and help 'em.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:26

Okay. I have a question though. I'm really actually glad you brought up grading because I've been wanting to ask someone these questions. You can tell me if you're like, this really isn't what I wanna be talking about right now, but when you say fighting the fight against grades, me and David were having this debate 'cause he is like, you know, he, everyone kind of brings this up. At one point or another in an interview, someone will casually be like, and well, you know, like grades are bad and like, you know, we should get rid of grading. But I've, I've always in the back of my mind wondered, can someone play, paint me a picture of what the vision is without grades, because I actually don't think I understand what it wa is, that's not you, you don't wanna paint it, you don't wanna do it.

Rob Baier: 15:02

no, I think, so our mutual friend Nolan, Nolan Fossum, he, you know, was, was working around like un grading at one point and

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:13

Yes. What, what is it?

Rob Baier: 15:14

well, and, and it posed some, some problems where he was providing feedback in the process and, the problems that, that he was getting was like, it's still like, it's a pushback from like a community and like, you still have to put grades in, especially as a high school teacher, because then it's like how, you know, if kids are on their way to college and university, like they need it on their transcript,

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:37

Yeah,

Rob Baier: 15:37

that makes grades important for that. what he was doing was, providing, an assessment score on what they know in that moment, that can be improved on and should be improved on as you continue practicing that skill over time. it, like

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:54

so, okay.

Rob Baier: 15:55

what he was thinking about, right. And like, I, I didn't get to dive too much into that, but for me, a world without grades, like, I don't know what it would look like. I think it's more out of feedback and like knowing where they, where students are and what they know and what they're capable of doing. Like, like let's think about like, And like we're adulting right now. Like we are in the middle of adulting. That's what we're trying to do, right? This whole

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:18

Like, what does that mean? Like living life as an adult?

Rob Baier: 16:20

adult. Like it's, that's not the fantasy land that kids are in. Like we

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:25

Okay. Yeah,

Rob Baier: 16:26

of adulting. Like I, I'm married with three kids. That's adulting. Like, that's, and,

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:31

but I'm not married with three kids. Am I still adulting?

Rob Baier: 16:34

Adulting because you are grinding with, with your, your band. You're going on tour, you're, you have books, you are speaking engagements. Like you're doing all the things. You know what you're not doing? Worrying about like, okay, oh, I'm going to eat, you know, these meals, I'm gonna go hang out with my friends all the time. I'm gonna, I have no bills. I have nothing to pay for.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:55

Okay.

Rob Baier: 16:56

very kid oriented. Remember those days?

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:59

Like we're responsible for caring of ourselves.

Rob Baier: 17:01

It's the worst. it's the worst.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:05

Okay.

Rob Baier: 17:06

Okay. So, so in the, in the adult world, like we don't receive grades, like

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:13

Okay.

Rob Baier: 17:14

receive feedback, like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:16

Hmm.

Rob Baier: 17:17

feedback then we learn from our feedback, like feedback that's provided. When you and I present, we will receive like feedback, whether it's through social media or somebody emailing us, or like, I always put up a QR code so that way they can provide me, you know, feedback in the moment to what they like, what they didn't like, like, then I learned from it. Within feedback, like we learn as adults, so like why are we giving kids like the status grade as opposed to like valuable feedback that could learn, you know, lean into something. Like, I also think you know, people who sell things on online, uh, whether it's through like Etsy or like Amazon or wherever, like wherever you're selling Facebook marketplace, um, if you're doing any of those things, like you get feedback, people are

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:01

But you got grades also. You got, yeah, but you also got a five star, you got a star system.

Rob Baier: 18:05

okay, that's a star system. Is that a grade that's not really a status symbol. It's like, Hey, you did

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:09

Why isn't that a grade? Hold on a second. It's out of five.

Rob Baier: 18:13

a grade that's more of like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:14

Well define A grade. Okay, I'm sorry. We should really have started with what is Define A grade then. What's a grade?

Rob Baier: 18:20

I, I think a grade is more, of like a status thing at this point, like the stars are more like based on I think that's feedback on, like it's a review of, of you and your process.

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:32

Hard disagree because if somebody goes to look at like at, okay, you know what, actually this brings up a very good point. 'cause you know what really grinds my gears and I don't understand, you know what I don't understand is when people say, we've gotten rid of grading. We did this in Canada last year, in BC. We've gotten rid of grading. So now students only get a number between one and four, that's a fucking grade. And all the parents are like, okay, so they've gotten rid of like a, B, C 90 80. But I'm still looking for the one to four. And I would agree that I would also add, when you go to Amazon or Google or something, you look for something with the highest rating to tell you how good that thing is. How is that not a grade? What's the difference?

Rob Baier: 19:16

That's a good question. know what really grinds my gears? no,

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:22

What

Rob Baier: 19:23

I, I actually, this is, um, this is a very nuanced conversation and I, I don't see myself as a grading expert at all. Okay. I wanna be very

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:31

Totally.

Rob Baier: 19:31

transparent with that. So I don't like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:34

Sure.

Rob Baier: 19:35

I, I, I would much rather us have a, continue the conversation on what is a grade, let's define a grade like are, are five star ratings a grade. Like, that's like, I would rather have a conversation with around that than, know, anything else about like, oh, you don't know what grades are. No, I don't wanna talk about that. But I think we need to really focus on like, okay, like we are giving star ratings, right? The uber Lyft, like, like we get star

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:03

Yeah.

Rob Baier: 20:04

on whatever, but else are we giving feedback? So maybe, maybe what we're unpacking here is that A grade, when you have a report card, whatever, there's no feedback to it

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:16

Mm-hmm.

Rob Baier: 20:16

a number maybe attached to it. Like, Hey, you have a 98 A. Okay, great. What does that mean? You got an A? if I have a five star rating or let, let's say I have a four and a half star rating. Well, why do I not have a five? Oh, let's look. And you can actually see like comments and you can see things like that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:32

Yep.

Rob Baier: 20:32

I think that's different. And this might, you know what I actually think. Maybe I'll start doing like star ratings, for my presentations when I do presentations, like have somebody rate me like, well zero to five stars, and then provide feedback just like I'm a an Uber driver or a Lyft driver. And, and then like, maybe I'll create an app. Maybe this is my million dollar idea where I'll create an app for educators, for, uh, people who are presenting that if they want feedback and they wanna learn more, like, because like, let's be honest, I've seen a lot of presentations in schools. We should probably have a star rating. Like there should

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:07

I love this idea. There should be a start.

Rob Baier: 21:10

I'm glad this is

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:10

You've started,

Rob Baier: 21:11

I said it first.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:13

you've also started with maybe un grading to like now let, we don't receive grade as adults to be like, let's actually give more adults grades. That's what I'm hearing has happened. Well,

Rob Baier: 21:24

no, I know.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:25

I dunno.

Rob Baier: 21:25

No, no. What I said was, we should give, we should give more star ratings with feedback because like, if you think about this, okay, let's think about this, okay, on the dating scene, I haven't dated in years, but on the dating scene,

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:39

David has David get in on this.

Rob Baier: 21:41

hop in on this.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:42

He's so pissed.

Rob Baier: 21:45

I have, you know, like friends who, who have been dating and things like that, and somebody who just got back on the dating scene and, and

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:51

Oh yeah.

Rob Baier: 21:52

they were like, would you be nice, like if, like, hey, you could pull up like this person's a, a five star person. Like they're a great person. Okay. Hey, this person's a two and a half stars. Why are they two and a half stars? Massive red flags.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:03

Based on what? What would you base that on? You could see how that could go so wrong in the dating world.

Rob Baier: 22:08

could be, yeah, for

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:09

We're riffing we're

Rob Baier: 22:11

We're riffing on this.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:12

that could,

Rob Baier: 22:12

I like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:13

that's a very per,

Rob Baier: 22:14

on some things, let's give stars on everything. Right? Like,

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:17

okay. Okay.

Rob Baier: 22:18

this

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:18

That's a hot take.

Rob Baier: 22:20

You ready? This is where Debate Math comes into play. So,

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:23

I was gonna say this would be great for Debate Math. What is a grade is a,

Rob Baier: 22:27

well, I'm gonna go a different direction on this because reason why Chris and I do the podcast is like, we want to have reasoning, right? And so whenever you say, you know, you, you, you're allowed to have opinions, but you should also have reasonings with this. So provide reasoning. So this is a healthy conversation about something that we started with, you know, like no grades to now, like we're doing five star ratings on dating profiles. But, but with, with all of this, all I'm saying is like, we have tried to unpack and, and, and provide reasoning to, to everything that we were just talking about. And when you asked me, well, aren't stars, you know, grades, wait a second, what are grades? I think that's probably where we need to start. From anything. So what, what,

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:13

I agree.

Rob Baier: 23:15

we have, we, there's probably gonna be, there are probably gonna be some, some misconceptions and misalignments on definitions. Once we start to define something, then we build off of that definition. We can, may still be, you know, on the opposite ends, but at least we have a clear definition on what it is we're talking about. And we can take that part out. So, yeah, so look at that full circle.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:42

That's exactly, by the way, this is actually really full circle because right before you, I interviewed Pam Harris, and this is exactly what happened to us, is like halfway through a disagreement we were like, wait a second, we're defining this term the wrong way. We were like, we've never even defined algorithm, like are we going by the same definition of what an algorithm even is. So I actually do think this is really, really important. And it's true, I didn't mean for this whole thing to be about grading, but now you've really gotten me thinking. And I just was like, we always have interesting discussions because it is this nuance thing. And I've a, I actually think it's really important to be like, you kind of started this by being like, but what is assessment for? Is it just to get a grade? And then it's like, okay, but then what is a grade and what is that even for? And I actually do think it's really interesting because now I'm hearing you be like, well, hold on a second. The five star system is different because you're also getting feedback. And then I would, I would totally lobb it back to you and be like, okay, so as long as I'm giving someone a grade and I'm writing a comment next to it, is that okay? And I don't think

Rob Baier: 24:40

I don't know if it's that simplistic.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:43

No, it's not. It's obviously not, but it's like, it's, it's an interesting idea of why are we giving grades? It kind of seems like the reason we're doing it is because we know that our, our students are in a pipeline where grades will eventually be required because we as educators, our goal is for them to learn something, right? That is our goal. So if our goal is for them to learn something, does our grading system help or hinder that? Well, it kind of seems like it's hindering that because the whole thing is we give them a grade at the end of a quote unquote unit, and then we just move the fuck on. And we're grading where they are with a concept at a certain point in time with no, motivation, let's even say as educators to help them continue to master that concept later on. And no motivation for the student to continue to master that concept later on. Because the unit's over, they're never gonna get tested on it again. So what the fuck's the point? So if our goal is for them to learn, the way we are grading, at the very least, seems to hinder that. And it provides no feedback or information. Because ideally in a world, a student would learn something, they would do whatever they would do, they would hand in their paper or whatever the assessment is, and we'd be able to say, all right, awesome. Here's how close you are to this. Here's what you need to work on. Here's la, la la, la, la, la, la. And that would be the feedback they would get so they could continue to learn, which is the goal.

Rob Baier: 26:05

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:06

Did that make sense, what I said? I think so. Okay. So it's like, obviously there's a, there's an issue here, but they're also stuck in this pipeline, so we don't know what to even do with them, because eventually they'll need a grade. And I think we just have to move on from this because we need to now talk to a grading expert who has the answers, and I guess we have to find this person. Because I'd like to even imagine, yeah,

Rob Baier: 26:23

was gonna say like, like this is exactly like where, like, this is why I'm on the fence with this. Like there's, like you,

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:30

right.

Rob Baier: 26:30

whole conversation started because you said. What, what are you on the fence on? Like with like

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:35

Yeah.

Rob Baier: 26:36

and this conversation ex, that's exactly what like, I mean there's other, there are other things that I'm on the fence with, but that this is exactly why I am on the fence with it because

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:46

Yeah.

Rob Baier: 26:47

I think school to school, teacher to teacher, like in a building, teacher to teacher, there's a different definition for grades and what should be graded and and all of that. And then there's also different definitions for assessment and what are

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:00

Mm-hmm.

Rob Baier: 27:01

and whether it's formative assessment or summative assessment and, oh wait, let's not get into that. Like what are formative assessments? Well, that could be

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:08

We can't.

Rob Baier: 27:10

Oh, but this is a summative assessment, but I see it as formative. Like there are so many nuances in education, which makes it incredibly hard to have a conversation like this and have a definitive answer. Like, all this is gonna be doing is like allowing us to, to structure a way to have more reasons. Which is great, then

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:31

Maybe that's an incredible goal though.

Rob Baier: 27:34

incredible goal, but then I love to always follow with action. And in this moment

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:38

Yeah.

Rob Baier: 27:38

there, there aren't any actionable steps because it's gonna take way more than, know, a handful of people having this conversation, having general understanding.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:50

Well, it's true, but I would almost like, as we wrap up this particular convo and move to a new topic, I actually think there is an action because I think it can be so frustrating to feel like we're talking in circles and then being like, not that we're talking in circles, but being like, oh my God, we've talked about all this and there's no answer. We crave an answer. We crave a certain answer. We want things to be black and white because it's so much easier. And guess what? That's not how the world is. They're not black and white. And I think the coolest thing is that you and I can see all these shades of gray and we can say we're on the fence. Instead of just doubling down and saying, Nope, I'm sticking to this belief because I said it once. You know? I actually think that's where the beauty is. And we are educators, so we should be constantly learning and questioning our beliefs. And I think an action at a point like this might be like, yeah, we're on the fence. We're not really sure. But one thing you and I have kind of come to is the most important part of the learning process when it comes to assessment is feedback. So guess what? Everyone, you gotta give your grades. Cool, do it. But you know what you can do. Also while you're giving grades, you can add a caveat to all of your students and be like, Hey look, I'm giving a grade because that's what I've gotta do in this moment. But also I really actually wanna focus on the learning part. Here is some useful feedback to go along with it. You know, like that is an action we can take and other actions we can take around grading as and assessment, depending on where you are, obviously we all have our own red tape, is you can allow, a lot of us have a bit of leeway to allow students to retake an assessment later down the line. You know, like I always use this example of being like a student fails a a test on common denominators. They see a failed mark. A month later they fail a test on adding fractions. They see a failure. But you know what they got right in that adding fractions test, they managed to do every single common denominator. And they never get rewarded for it.

Rob Baier: 29:33

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:33

Right? Because, because they never, so you could as a teacher be like, you know what, babe? I saw that you got all those common denominators, right? What if you just take that common denominators test again now

Rob Baier: 29:43

Or,

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:44

anyways, okay. Whatever.

Rob Baier: 29:45

or even, even more so for me, you know, they do well on the, on the common denominator test, you know, or adding common denominators. And I look at that as like, okay, so like, what didn't they do well. Didn't get the right answer? Ok. But look at the process. Where are they struggling? Okay, so instead of like an

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:06

Yes.

Rob Baier: 30:06

C, D, maybe it's like a, hey, it's like three and a half stars be, and here's why. Like, your process was really good. You know, when you're doing, you know, conversions and trying to get those common denominators, like you made some, some mistakes, some calculation errors, which then made your answer incorrect at the end. Oh my gosh. As a student, excuse me, as a student, I'm like, oh, I made a mistake here. I know what, what I did at the end. Like, I know how to fix this. opposed to sorry, you, you failed this. Thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:38

Totally. I think the feedback is important and the feedback also shows our students that we believe they can improve. We're not just slapping a grade down and saying, move on. We're saying, I'm giving you feedback because I think you can take the feedback and then do something with it. I kind of wanna ask how you know, we, we talk about, this is a podcast about math trauma and math anxiety, how you think these current practices of assessment, or even the way we teach in a nons spiraled fashion, just unit after unit might contribute to math trauma in some students. Do you ever think about that? Like how that might actually like cause math anxiety.

Rob Baier: 31:14

yeah, I actually have recently, because as, as I, this, that Netflix analogy is one that, you know, internally at Innovamat we've, we've talked about a lot and it's, I think Albert's the one that kind of came up with it and it makes sense. And you know, for me, as, as I started to reflect on unit teaching, you know, if a student does really well at the end of a unit on a unit test, three months later, you know, they have a cumulative exam, maybe it's like a midterm. And they bomb the midterm. And the part that they really struggle with is that unit one stuff. And now you're thinking like, second, I, maybe I'm stupid at math. Like I knew it at one point and I forgot it already. Maybe I'm just not good at this. Like, why can't I remember it? Well, you can't remember it because it's not your fault. Like you, you learned it in a, in a block, like a block, like a unit, and then you never use it again. Like, you didn't, like continue practicing those skills over and over

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:18

Right.

Rob Baier: 32:19

right? Like, like I'm pretty, so, for instance, growing up, my dad showed me how to change oil out of a, of a car. He, he said, I need, you need to know how to do this. And he did this whole thing. He showed me once I helped him, once. have not done that again in my entire life. And. of fact, I would rather pay somebody to do it because I'm gonna screw this up. And if I were to do this now, I mean, I'm pretty sure I could, could empty the oil and then put it

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:57

I would not trust you. Whatever you're doing with your face, I would not let you near my car.

Rob Baier: 33:01

would look at, look, I, I wouldn't let me near your car either or mine or anybody's. If I, if somebody's like, Hey, I want you to change the oil on my car, I'd be like, all right, your keys. And then I would take it to somebody and have them do it and come back. But the, the, what I'm, the point I'm trying to get to is like, I was shown that in a moment, and then when I needed to help the next time was able to do it in that moment, I have not practiced that skill rest of my life. I was a teenager then. I am at least double the age that I was when he shared that with me. There's no way in the world I'm gonna remember that. Now, on the other side of that, like, I love to cook. I love to, I love to cook. I love to, like what something I, I do a lot for my kids 'cause I have a, a, a Blackstone Grill is I love to make like hibachi make hibachi

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:54

Oh my God. What? Invite us over.

Rob Baier: 33:57

like rice and, and shrimp. But it's something that like, I've been crafting and trying to work on the flavors and stuff, and I keep

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:03

Mm.

Rob Baier: 34:04

I keep getting better at it. And, it's to the point now where like my middle son will say, Hey, I, I want hibachi tonight. And like, we'll go get this stuff. don't look at a recipe anymore. It's something I know because I practiced it overover time, but I also failed fixed, failed and fixed, failed and fixed. And I was able to

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:25

Rupture and repair

Rob Baier: 34:27

Yeah. So if we wanna talk like a, like a trauma, like if somebody's like, Hey, here's, here's the keys to my car. Can you, can you change the oil? Yeah. It's, it's like a, a a, a flight or fight response a little bit. I'm like, I don't know what the hell I'm doing. Going back to math, same thing's true for like units. you don't practice those skills or tie those to other concepts within, and it's just like, Hey, here's this. Let's move on. Here's this,

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:52

Mm-hmm.

Rob Baier: 34:53

And then, you know, by the end of the year and the elementary grades, they're like, we didn't get to geometry. Third grade comes along. We didn't get to geometry because that's unit 14. Well, then kids get to 4th grade, and they go I didn't get, sorry, didn't get to geometry. 'Cause that's unit 15. Oh, then they get to fifth grade and the teacher goes, you don't know what a quadrilateral is? Because third grade and fourth grade, they didn't learn it. And then in

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:18

Well,

Rob Baier: 35:19

and this,

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:19

okay.

Rob Baier: 35:20

standard take, but then in fifth grade, now that fifth grade student, going to trauma, that 5th grade student's going, I must be dumb. 'cause I'm like, that teacher said I'm supposed to know the quadrilateral is by fifth grade. That's not their fault.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:32

Yeah, there's two different things here because I mean that that ladder example is like they literally didn't learn something, but your first example of mastering something in a moment, then never revisiting it, then being asked to do it and thinking to yourself, I don't remember it. I actually love that you brought this up because it's so funny you say this. I was literally just talking to Raj about this on the podcast. We were talking about cars as well, and I was saying, I learned how to change a flat tire once, right? Like, and I, I did it. I, I learned how to do it and I did it. I have not used that skill since, and I don't know how to do it. Now. What's happened, and I bet you there's a phenomenon for this. I wanna look it up after. It's almost made me feel stupider than if I had never learned how to fix the flat tire in the first place. Because now my story is I knew how to do it once and now I don't. Which means I can't remember things. And I, it was so foggy. It was so long ago. Maybe it was too hard. Maybe I didn't really know how to do it. Now my story is about my ability to learn things as opposed to being able to say, well, no one ever showed it to me. Maybe I could learn it. So I actually think this is a very interesting point. That we teach students in this way in which they get this taste of understanding something, but then later can't remember it because we've taught in units instead of spiraling. It almost adds to their story of, well, I was never really good at it, if I can't do it now.

Rob Baier: 37:00

Can I add

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:00

I, I actually think that's, yeah, please,

Rob Baier: 37:03

the

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:03

yeah.

Rob Baier: 37:03

other layer to that, and this is bringing it back to what we were talking about at the beginning. If they're not able to not only practice the skill, but to reason and be able to share and have conversations and be able to process, that's another blocker for them that, oh, okay, I didn't, I don't remember this from before, but also like, they didn't get to practice or like process through, you know, going back to where I was talking about, you know, the weekly shows, the reason we were able to process that was through conversation and reasoning,

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:33

Mm. Right, right. Yeah.

Rob Baier: 37:35

like, I, I really believe that like, like there needs to be a lot more reasoning and processing, but also like, we can't just learn something and move on and, and like think it's not connected, which I guess, you know, takes us to an even bigger issue with, with math education and in general is like, we allow that because it's so standards driven. And high stakes testing still. And, we allow that and it's, and we, we set up, um, a sandbox that we're trying to play in that has rules that nobody really likes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:05

Is this just a, well, it's because it's always been done this way, or do you think that there's a conspiracy going on why we're keeping it this way?

Rob Baier: 38:12

I think a large part of it is it's always been done this way and it's something that's comfortable.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:16

Yeah.

Rob Baier: 38:16

years ago it was the race to calculus, which is still kind of a thing, but it was a race to calculus. But why did the race to calculus even occur? Well, it's because we were, was a space race and we were trying to get to the moon. And

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:30

What, is that an analogy, or is that real?

Rob Baier: 38:33

real. And, and the United,

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:34

Oh, oh, really? Actually.

Rob Baier: 38:35

United, like the, like the United States, we started to really push calculus and race to get every kid to take calculus because we had, basically we were trying to get to the moon before any other

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:49

When was this? Do you think people have actually been to the moon or do you think it's all fabricated?

Rob Baier: 38:56

next que

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:57

wondering. Okay. We have to, we have to wrap up. I don't know how we've been talking for this long, but this is just like gone in the oddest, but I'm so into this direction to be honest, because it's brought up a lot of really interesting things.

Rob Baier: 39:13

I am so excited to see how David's gonna edit this.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:17

I dunno how he's gonna do it. This is definitely, he's got his work cut out for him. I'll tell you that.

Rob Baier: 39:21

very

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:21

But like,

Rob Baier: 39:22

probably mad at me, but I, I'm not around him. So.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:27

I really do, honestly, the thing I really love about you, it's, it's, I said this at the beginning and then it just showed through our conversation that, you and I love, we, we are not scared of nuance. We're not the type of people who are like, no, I need to just have a right answer and know, and I honestly think that's what makes you such a valuable educator and such a valuable, like coach for other teachers because you can see all the different perspectives and ways to do things. And I know in your work with Innovamat, you have a way of teaching math that honors a lot of what you're talking about. Is that correct?

Rob Baier: 39:57

True. Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:58

If there was a teacher listening to this right now who was like, you know, I really, this spiraling thing sounds cool, but I don't even know where to start. What advice do you have for them?

Rob Baier: 40:07

Call us. No.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:09

Call Innovamat.

Rob Baier: 40:11

I mean, I, I, I think that there's a, there's a lot of research out there and I, I encourage anybody, whenever somebody tries to throw research in your face, read it yourself and then also try to like actively seek counter arguments, that way you can formalize the ideas yourself. I think start there. So, so read about what it is, how you could do it in terms of resources, like, I mean, truthfully, like, as a company,

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:36

Gimme something quick.

Rob Baier: 40:37

there's

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:38

Something quick they can do.

Rob Baier: 40:39

well, there's not really anything quick you can do. Have to

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:42

Okay. Fair.

Rob Baier: 40:43

You have to understand, like, I would, there's nothing quick I, but you need to dive into like how students actually learn. There's a lot of research there and especially with like learning progressions or learning trajectories, like dive into that. Uh,

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:58

But you guys have a whole curriculum, right? Like if a teacher was like, look, I don't wanna read the science behind this, I believe everything you said on Vanessa's amazing podcast, I just wanna do it, and I'm a grade three math teacher. Can they just like get this from you? Can they get a lesson on how to, they can get a whole resource and how to teach their grade three curriculum in a spiraled way?

Rob Baier: 41:16

that'd be a stretch, but we could try. Yeah. I, there it's not easy. This isn't an easy, like, there's, there's not an easy answer for this one, to be honest. I wish I could tell you other than like finding spiral curriculums that are already out there. There's not an easy way, because most curriculums are, are written in unit format.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:35

What's, okay, so we don't even have to put this in, but now I'm just curious. What is a Innovamats curriculum like?

Rob Baier: 41:40

Spiral.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:42

But, so I'm trying to, hello? So can you just tell people to just call you up? You're like, it's impossible. It's so hard. No

Rob Baier: 41:49

then you said, oh, just call you. But what's something easy?

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:52

Okay. I dunno what part of this is gonna be kept on. He's trying to, not self promote, but he, what we're saying here is Innovamat. This is not a pitch for a Innovamat, but there is a resource out there that has all the, all the grades spiraled for you.

Rob Baier: 42:04

I will tell you that, okay.

Vanessa Vakharia: 42:06

Is this reverse psychology? Is this like, don't call me, don't whatever.

Rob Baier: 42:10

No, no. Listen, like, so yeah. I, I, this, I was not intending to like, have any type of self-promotion or promotion whatsoever. With that said, at, at a Innovamat, at a Innovamat,

Vanessa Vakharia: 42:26

Don't cut any of this. It's so good.

Rob Baier: 42:28

We have a spiral, a learning trajectory, that is based off of how students learn mathematics. We have partnered and are endorsed by Peter Liljedahl, Vanessa's best friend

Vanessa Vakharia: 42:40

Oh, here we go.

Rob Baier: 42:42

and our core curriculum is called Thinking Math. We get kids to think more in math class in a, in a way that they retain more over time. And we also have intervention that is used by Chicago Public Schools and other really big schools around the country. yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 42:59

appreciate you not wanting to self-promote. I also didn't want you to self-promote, but honestly I'm also like, you know, spiraling sounds really, really interesting and very beneficial and it's cool to know there's a resource out there. So I'm, you know, that you kind of played this well because it, now it sounds like I'm forcing you to sell yourself and you had no hand in the matter. It's smart, it's.

Rob Baier: 43:18

It's not, that is not what I tried to do though. The only thing I did intentionally and I can't wait, okay, David, keep this part in. I am so thankful to be on this podcast, and I hope that this clip right here shows that Vanessa made me put her book at the top and then Chris's book at the bottom or in the middle. Uh, no, don't, you can cut all that, but

Vanessa Vakharia: 43:46

We love you. Okay, final two questions.

Rob Baier: 43:50

questions.

Vanessa Vakharia: 43:50

has been so fun.

Rob Baier: 43:51

ahead.

Vanessa Vakharia: 43:52

No, rapid fire questions. If there's one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?

Rob Baier: 43:59

Get students to talk more about their reasons for why they believe, what they believe for an answer, for a process, anything like that. Like hear what they're thinking that way we can address like what their conceptions are or misconceptions are.

Vanessa Vakharia: 44:16

Love it. And number two, someone's like, cool, cool, cool. Yeah, but I'm just not really a math person. Doesn't really matter how you teach me. I'm just not a math person.

Rob Baier: 44:24

I typically have a conversation with them about what they do for, for work. talk about like their life and, and things like that. And then literally dissect how they're doing math all the time. so,

Vanessa Vakharia: 44:36

Okay.

Rob Baier: 44:36

clearly a math person 'cause you literally do it all the time. And that's from reasoning, from organizing, from estimating when you go to the grocery store to estimating your Amazon cart as you're clicking through all the things you wanna buy to, you know, all of those things, you are doing math all the time. I'm not a math person is a bs thing to say. And on top of that, you coming at, at anybody, any educator, saying that common core and, how the standards are, like all this new math and you know, I, why aren't they, they teach in the way that I learned, my question to you is, did you like math? And do you want us to still teach it the way that you learned it? So you're saying you don't like math, you hate math, math. Isn't your thing, math isn't your jam. But you want us to teach your kids the same way. That's crazy.

Vanessa Vakharia: 45:26

Drop the fucking mic. Go off King. And on that note, that's a, why do I keep saying that's a wrap? I've said it like four times. Okay, Rob,

Rob Baier: 45:38

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 45:38

been a pleasure.

Rob Baier: 45:40

Vanessa. Thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 45:43

See you guys. I told you I was not lying. Rob is the real deal. I'm still like not over this whole space race calculus thing. I think it's so crazy that our education system is still like mostly based around society's needs from literally decades ago. If learning should be about the future, why is education so stuck in the past? And you know what, I'm also really sitting here thinking about assessment. I know it's a hot topic, but to me it's just this other thing that we do the same way we always have and like haven't adjusted to be like, wait a second, what exactly are we doing here and why are we doing it?

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:16

If you're thinking some of these same thoughts, please share this episode. Send it to a teacher who's struggling to connect, assessment to practice, or a colleague who's in the process of rethinking the why behind their instructional practices, or literally anyone who's ever thought, but why are we doing this stuff and how can I be a part of the solution?

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:33

And since I'm all fired up about assessment right now, here is your Math Therapy homework. This week I want you to reflect on the way you use assessment in the classroom and consider what it is you want to be assessing and whether or not the form of assessment that you're using actually as assesses that thing. I'm curious what you'll discover. If it's a yes, how does that make you feel? If it's a no, how does that make you feel? And is there some tweak you could be making?

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:57

And you guys know the drill. Text the podcast, DM me on Instagram at The Math Guru, or email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca. Links are all in the show notes, and I wanna know what this brought up for you. I love hearing from you guys.

Vanessa Vakharia: 47:09

And finally, remember my book, Math Therapy is now available on. All audiobook platforms narrated by me and my Math Therapy merch line is out, and I released a special little drop in the middle of my tour. So head to maththerapy.com/merch and get yourself something cute or maybe get something cute for one of your besties because the holidays are fast approaching.

Vanessa Vakharia: 47:30

And guys, Math Therapy is produced and edited by the one and only David Kochberg who's also in my band, Goodnight Sunrise. And I bring that up because our theme music that you're listening to is by our band, Goodnight Sunrise. You can find new episodes weekly of Math Therapy because we are now a weekly podcast. So what's happening next week? Who knows? You're gonna have to listen to find out.

Vanessa Vakharia: 47:54

Oh my God. Yes. Chris has picked up. okay. Sorry. I'm just recording the intro to Rob's session and we are having a debate about, we're having a debate, there we go. is it Rob Baier or Baier? Uh, are you recording this, David? We have Chris Luzniak. Is it Luzniak or Luzniak? Is it Luzniak? You go with either? All right. Oh my God. David is yelling in my ear. "He said that when you interviewed him, Vanessa." Okay, I love you. Sorry. You know I wanna talk to you more, but I have to record this. Thank you for coming in Clutch. Rob Baier. Okay, there we go. Oh, Rob is calling me back. Rob is calling me Rob, I've got, I got Rob on the horn. I got Rob on the horn. Okay, here's Rob. what I called you for is I'm currently recording the intro to your session and I said, Rob Baier and David yelled, it's Rob Baier. So we called you and you didn't pick up, so then we called Chris Luzniak. We're recording all of this. This is amazing. This is gonna be the best intro ever to our unhinged episode. Okay. We have to go. We have to go. Okay. Love you. Okay. Bye bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Okay. Okay. You can use that however you want. Okay. Here we go.