Intro

Nat 0:03

Math has really bad I can't explain to my kid why they're learning or why it's important. what I really would wanna say is, just get through this. You're gonna use a calculator for the rest of your life.

Cat 0:13

at some point we dim their light and I think teachers and parents, we have the power to like ignite it or dim it. We grind, we grind, we grind them for the sake of what, I don't know. it should be joyful,

Vanessa Vakharia 0:27

Okay guys, you know I'm all about clickbait and being very dramatic about literally everything, but I am not joking when I say that today's episode might be the most controversial one we've ever shared. Why you ask? Well, because I interviewed two moms who have seven kids between them and give zero fucks about making it a hundred percent clear that in spite of all the numbers I just threw at you, they hate math. Catherine Belknap and Natalie Telfer, AKA Cat and Nat, are two powerhouse mom influencers that have created an entire "mompire", dishing real talk about raising kids in the modern world, their bestselling authors and podcasters, and they do not hold back. And this interview was no different. On Math Therapy We're usually talking about what's happening in the classroom. But I wanted to talk to Cat and Nat about the parent perspective because when it comes to math, we're finding that this generation is growing up with the same bad relationship with math as their parents had. And it doesn't have to be that way. Now guys, when I say this convo will be controversial, I really mean it. I can already sense the steam ready to blow the AirPods out of your ears, but I truly believe you need to hear it. And here's why. If you're a parent, this episode will validate you. If you think you're a horrible person for thinking that school math sucks, and that the way we teach it is bullshit, and you also feel helpless when it comes to helping your kid, Cat and Nat will make it very clear that you're not alone. If you're an educator, this episode might sting. It certainly did for me. But Cat, Annette remind us that students are bringing their entire lives into math class and parents are treading water. Trying to just keep these little humans alive and out of trouble. And if parents are still struggling to understand why we need to learn math, how are they supposed to justify it to their kids? If you're none of the above or all of the above and you've struggled with math at any stage in life, this conversation will hopefully put a lot of what you've been feeling into words. I'll be honest, it was really hard to listen back to this interview. I could like feel the very raw, real stress and anxiety that Cat and not deal with every day. And I get it when you're worried that your kid's gonna get pregnant behind the circle. K, you are not worried about trigonometry. Thank you, by the way, Cat, for painting that picture for us. But guys, I firmly believe that just because the math education system is broken doesn't mean we give up on it. We need our kids to develop numeracy and critical thinking skills, and I know we can teach in better ways so we can all stop like losing our minds and conversations like these ones are a big part of the solution. So thank you for listening. I wanna know what it brings up for you, and I encourage you to share it with a parent or teacher in your life that needs to hear it too, because hard conversations are often the catalyst for change.

Parents carry math trauma too

Vanessa Vakharia 3:07

I wanna start by acknowledging, 'cause I think we may have forgotten because now, you know, we know each other ish that when we first met it was because you two were hosting breakfast television and you admitted without hesitation that you hated math. And I loved it. Like I loved how real it was because you two represent so many parents out there, right? Like parents who are raising children, who did not have a positive math experience, and you're kind of carrying that baggage and trying to manage the two. This is the first time I've actually had parents on the podcast. And I think it's so important because so much of my audience is teachers, and one of our biggest questions as teachers is, what about the parents? You know, how do we help the parents? And I don't think any of us fucking know. So you two are the experts, you're the moms, and we're gonna obviously start with your math trauma. But before we do, I just wanna say thanks for being here so much.

Nat 3:55

Oh, Vanessa, we love you. We would be here for you anytime.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:58

Ugh. So should we start with a little, I kind of wanna know where your math trauma began for both of you. Like do either of you have a specific memory or just experience with math, or do you wanna just tell us a bit, because I'm just coming on here being like you hate math and I'm sure I'm simplifying it.

Cat 4:12

Is it possible to not like it? can you just not like it? Like, I don't like caviar

Vanessa Vakharia 4:18

Yep.

Cat 4:19

and I don't like cilantro and I don't like math.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:23

Yeah.

Cat 4:23

You know, I think people have different brains and I really tell my kids this and I think that you can't be good at everything, and school expects you to be good at everything. And, you know, we've taken out the word hate in our house and we've put in not a lot in common at the moment with. So I don't have anything in common with math. I don't like the way it looks. I don't like the way it sounds. I don't like the wording. I don't like stupid puzzles that tell you to look backwards, step upside down, and then figure out the math problem without just saying three plus three is nine. Johnny didn't go to the store and do three twirls. Like, just tell me what I'm looking for.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:58

Yeah.

Cat 4:58

You know what I mean? Like, why are you trying to complicate me? Don't do that. She's actually really naturally good with numbers and common sense numbers and like banking and stuff, but to me it just makes me wanna barf.

Nat 5:12

I mean, I guess I didn't really think too much about math, up to like grade five, let's say. And then I, applied to get into some private schools and I didn't get in. And then, so during grade six, my mom put me in, math and English tutor twice a week to prepare me for the test to get in to try out again for grade seven. And during that time, because I was not only learning what I was learning in school, but I was learning like advanced, it was the first time that I was in class and my teacher would be like introducing something and I already had heard it before and I felt so smart for like the first time. Because I remember my teacher saying, how do you know that? And I don't know why my mom was like, just don't, my mom, don't tell anyone you're a tutor. Don't tell anyone you're trying out for the schools, just so if you don't make it, it's not gonna be. So I go, oh, my older brother taught me, but I had done it the night before and I was like, it felt so magical that I actually knew what they were talking about. Fast forward, get into the school. Go to the private school and I start falling behind just because, you know, at this point I'm in grade nine and I just don't care, not not doing my homework, but in this private school, if you're not doing well the teacher was really like, I think you're capable and I think you've fallen behind. Called in my mom. We had a meeting, we made a plan, and I ended up being tutored, but the teacher also gave me a peer tutor and for that moment when I had her as my peer tutor and my teacher and people literally babysitting me for a very short period of time, I understood math and I got it.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:36

Okay.

Nat 6:37

Leave the private school, go to the public school, don't understand anything the teacher's ever saying ever again for the rest life.

Cat 6:46

I think kids learn math differently. I don't think it's a universal way of teaching. And I think that that's where we have roadblocks is we were taught differently. Mm-hmm. Than, than our kids are learning right now. So we actually can't help them because it's not correct the way they're learning. And we go to help them and they're like, that's not how we do it. And you're like, well, okay. So it's changed, so we're, we can't help. And then they'll go to a math tutor and they won't do well necessarily, because that math tutor, it's not absorbing the way they're learning. It's the one subject that's cumulative each, each chapter is cumulative and I think that it's a really big disservice because there's no, it's black and white and so there, if you forget to add a one or care, not show your work properly, 'cause why one son's school taught him mental math and the next school is like, you need to show every step or you're gonna lose marks.

Nat 7:35

That's frustrating.

Cat 7:36

There's no consistency. And so why do we get frustrated with math? Because people want to over complicate it rather than make it simple.

Nat 7:43

Or they're, or someone's simplifying it and then someone's making it more complicated and they're doing it differently. And then the kids sort of just feel really overwhelmed. We can get to the kids. I know you were asking about our trauma, but um,

Why do we bother teaching math?!

Cat 7:53

We have calculators. We have calculators. Yeah. So if we have a calculator. Tell a kid, we're teaching you this for this reason, for your brain. Don't just say there's no, they don't understand why they're doing it. Mm-hmm. Because every, they have access to technology everywhere. So if I can go on a computer and do it, and when I get older, every, every accountant is U using ai. Why are we not teaching them how to use these things with their brains and teaching them more? That makes sense.

Nat 8:20

That actually is a question that I, I'd like to ask you is, why do they take math?

Vanessa Vakharia 8:24

Oh my God, this is so interesting because obviously I, as a teacher, I'm listening to this and like so many things are happening, like my heart's breaking. I'm like, oh fuck, she just doesn't have anything in common math. Then I'm listening to half this stuff and being like, no, like that's not okay. And then I'm like, oh, but they don't understand. And I actually think this is gonna be so triggering for the people who are listening right now, who are teachers who are like, but, and I actually think that's why this conversation exactly needs to fucking happen right now, because this is a real thing. Everything you're saying, I want you to feel validated for. I'm just sitting here being like, yep, of course that makes sense. That would feel shitty. I actually think, I bet you teachers have their backs up a little bit right now. I know I did at some of the comments being like, well, hold on. But no, this is a real experience of students and parents and we are here to serve students. That's literally the job of a teacher is here to help a student build a healthy relationship with math. And if these are the things that students and parents are feeling, we need to acknowledge that. So, let me actually just answer that question. When you say why do students take math, I think most teachers can agree probably with the fact that like, we're all like, like, 'cause I, I'm assuming, and tell me if I'm wrong, that part of your question is like, why are they learning half of this shit?

Nat 9:38

You know when they say like, you learn cursive writing because it helps develop a part of the brain. So I assume up to there, but like, let's say, why do they have to take grade 10 math? And also because I feel like everyone that I know, including a lot of parents who are trying to help with grade 10 and math, like they don't know if, they don't remember, if they don't use it. So why are they, why do they have to take it?

Vanessa Vakharia 9:54

Okay, so the first thing I would say that I think is really important for parents to know is it's actually not your job to teach math. And I know that sounds really hard, like Cat, when you're saying like, we can't even help our kids with math because it's being taught in a different way. Of course, as a parent, you want to help your kid, so like, I hate that and, and I get why, because often parents are like, well, I've gotta teach the math to my kid because my kid's not fucking learning it. But I think we should separate like, teachers shouldn't be teaching math in a way that the parents understand, just so the parents can help, if that makes sense. And so I say that to be like, 'cause I know sometimes it's like, well this new math, the idea hopefully is that a lot of our new strategies are going to be more helpful in the, in the real world. So for example, like. Why are students taking math up to a certain grade level? A lot of what should be taught in math is critical thinking, the ability to think through problems and find solutions. However, you're totally right. Half of the math we see is like, Johnny went and bought 40 watermelons, dah, dah, dah, dah, duh. Fill out this formula. There's no thinking in that. All we're wanting kids to do is to take a number, plug it into some shit they've memorized and spit it out. That's not cool. They don't, they don't need that skill. I think what hopefully will bring hope is that in the math education community, we're trying to move away from all of that. We're trying to get away from like memorizing and rote learning and getting into like, let's really focus on kids thinking skills and processing and understanding numbers and quantities and numeracy. So when they like go into the re world and are given some bunk statistic, they can be like, that sounds like bullshit. You know, like, but. But to be fair, and you know this 'cause I tutor so many kids, we haven't caught up to that and I'm sure you're seeing that. You're seeing a lot of shit math and you're like, why are they doing this? The only other thing I'll say is when we're like, well, why did they have to take math up to, let's say, grade 10 or something? The truth is, again, let's not focus on how fucked the curriculum in schools are, but the fact is that many university programs require math as a pre-req

Nat 11:56

Right. It's like not counting things out, like keeping you in the game until like long enough whether your brain might, might wanna know what you wanna go into.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:04

Yes. And I will say I've, I've personally seen so many students that have been written off, like, let's say in grade seven. And you know, they, we used to be able to stream them in grade nine, like, oh f fuck it, just take the workplace math. And I've worked with them and they've, they've seen that, oh my God, I actually like math and I'm good at it and have ended up like going to med school or whatever. And I hate the idea of being like, let's write a kid off when they're like 10 or 11. Like, you know what I mean? Like, let's give them the option. But also to your point, if you hate it and your life sucks and you don't understand it, to just keep being like, well, you gotta do this till grade 10 and we're not gonna support or help then there's this whole additional anxiety. So I think, anyways, hopefully that answers the why, but are we doing it the right way? No, in many ways. Now I kind of wanna like Cat, you said at the beginning, I loved it, right, 'cause you're like, well, I just have nothing in common with it, and you listed some things that were math, right? Like you were like twirling around and doing this kind of thing and we have calculators, so why this and that. And that, that broke my heart a bit, only not because I'm like you, you can totally not like caviar and not like math. I don't mind that. It pisses me off because I'm like, so many of those things are not like what I would even call math. Like it's almost like kind of to Nat's question of like, what are we teaching? Like you're right, we have calculators. So if we were literally saying to kids, hey, guess what? We're just gonna do mental math forever and ever, even though you have this tool, that seems kind of pointless. Right? But like, ideally, like I'm kind of thinking about all the things that are math that we never share with kids or Cat, that you never like identified as math and just sort of, I don't know.

Cat 13:44

That's real world though, right? Like I think where the, where you're seeing breakdowns from parents is their kids are frustrated, time is time is small. We don't have a lot of time. When they come home with a worksheet of a hundred questions and it's like, you know, they have to write like the multiplication a hundred times or a hundred different ways, or whatever it is you, and you see their frustration, it becomes your frustration. So I really think that if they struggle in math, it becomes a contentious point because if you can't support them, then you have to go elsewhere. The kids have no time anymore, like there is no more time and they're in school from, you know, eight 30 to to three 30 or four, and then they're coming home, you're jamming a dinner in their throats, trying to get them to do something else they might like, and then going back to the books to possibly do more schoolwork, when they're children. You know, so I think it's really not maybe about the subject because this might be someone else's plight in English, or this might be someone else's plight in French. I think it's more where do your kids have pain points? And the frustration often is math, you know, and then you have parents who are going to do Russian math on the weekends from kindergarten. And it's actually called that, like I'm not,

Vanessa Vakharia 14:52

Yeah. it's the Russian School of Math. It's actually a

Cat 14:54

It's a Russian school of math or you know, Spirit of Math, but they're already good in math. So now you have kids who are so far ahead in math, like it's like the teachers can't win because no one's subscribing to a program that supports everybody. You have kids that are off the chart and then you have kids who are just not naturally inclined to math. So it's like this thing.

Nat 15:16

And then some teachers, it's like, you know, your kid kind of connects with them. When the teacher speaks, they can hear them, but. Not every kid is gonna feel the same way about the way a, a teacher teaches. So, um, I, I find it's math because it seems it is probably not to you, but it feels really like abstract when you see all these letters and numbers all in the thing in brackets, and none of it looks like anything that is a part of the real world. I feel like kids would need to be in small groups to learn based on their learning style. But there's not enough resources, that's not enough resources.

Cat 15:50

And my daughter did a project, like she defined rent, see how much it costs. Mm-hmm. Like go grocery shopping, get a bill. That wasn't in math class.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:58

What,

Cat 15:59

A no, it was in one of the grade nine, you

Vanessa Vakharia 16:03

is math.

Cat 16:05

but that's not what math does.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:07

Yeah.

Cat 16:08

So if they had put real world, okay, so let's budget this, let's balance this budget sheet, let's figure out taxes. How do you do your taxes? That's math. This is what we're learning is abstract. You know, if you gave them a formula, I'm like, eventually you'll plug this into Google Sheets to, in order to get your balance for your household and your taxes. Well, great. But like nobody's doing that. We're hiring accountants.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:35

A hundred percent. I remember reading this book, it was such an amazing book, and he was like, imagine you'd never heard a song in your life, like you'd never heard a song in your life. So you go to this thing called music class, and they're like, okay, so what you're gonna do is take this paper with lines and you're gonna draw these black dots. Like, don't worry, you'll understand why later, but just memorize where everything go. Like you'd hate music. You'd be the fuck is this? Like, and that's the problem with math is we're always like, you'll understand one day. Whereas if we could actually show them like, math is actually very cool. There's all this cool shit. But like you can't access that until you like go to university in many cases and by then you're fucked.

Cat 17:11

Teach them their algorithm numbers and like how much they can, what's an ROI? What's your return on investment? Teach them things of their language that they're, you know. Like someone should make a lesson up with six, seven in it, you know? Or like something where it's all of these things that they're saying that they can relate to, but we're just expecting them to level up to a place where isn't, it's not interesting. No one's making it interesting. So maybe math is very interesting. Yeah, it, it is because we do use it every day, but they don't use what they're learning at all, and we don't use what they're learning at all.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:46

Oh

How Cat and Nat really feel about math

Vanessa Vakharia 17:47

my God. So can I ask, are either of you, would you identify as being like anxious around math or are you just like, no, we just don't like it?

Nat 17:56

I would say I don't feel anxious or it's just that I don't like it. I just feel like it is so out of my, like, out of my league of the way that I think and the way that I understand. And I miss, I've missed, so I met, like, I really didn't gain any knowledge, somehow I got through high school, but I didn't take anything, I didn't take anything from math.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:17

it feels so crazy to say the words, you know how there are always those things like, are you smarter than a fifth grader? And like, it's meant to make you feel stupid for being like, I can't answer this grade four question. You guys know I'm a high school math teacher, so I could teach you like calculus? Well, okay, that's a bit generous. I haven't done that in a while. But I could teach, like, you know, I could teach grade 12 math. I wrote two kids books for Scholastic and it was the hardest thing. I was like, I have no idea actually how to use a protractor or like to explain why a decimal works. I was like, I don't, like you put the.in. Like I don't like, it's actually, so just to be like,

Nat 18:53

Pie. Pie. Just

Vanessa Vakharia 18:55

Just

Nat 18:55

just. Just.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:57

it's you. 'cause we don't learn why. So it's like, it actually was hard. Like, I was like, this is grade three math. And I was like, you know, I, I will not tutor below grade nine math because I actually find it very challenging. So like, I just wanna also be like, it doesn't mean like we're dumb or something 'cause we can't do something. A grade four is learning. It actually is. Quite challenging in a completely different way of thinking. 'cause a lot of that stuff we just like do, like you go to buy a pizza and you're like, I don't know, like cut it into quarters and you know what you actually mean. Like, you know

Cat 19:26

Mm-hmm. Yeah. And also, uh, numbers don't belong in num in math. There's no numbers in math, but there

Vanessa Vakharia 19:32

can you please explain that statement?

Cat 19:35

Sorry. There's no letters. letters belong in math.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:39

I was like, pardon? I was like,

Cat 19:40

Could you please expand? There's no letters that belong in math. Letters don't belong in math. Numbers belong in math. Not

Vanessa Vakharia 19:48

agree to disagree on that one, but that's okay. That's

Nat 19:50

Do the letters represent like things like it's y. An example for like a car. Like all those letters represent thing.

Cat 19:57

Just put a picture of a car.

Nat 19:58

Oh God. Write a little visual of a real thing.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:02

Yeah. I, I feel like that would challenge the people who like, feel like they're, they have like art anxiety to have to draw car instead of the letter

Cat 20:09

Oh, a stick figure.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:11

Yeah, it's something to, it's for sure, something to think about. Um,

Cat 20:16

I your open-mindedness. gonna listen to that feedback. I'm never gonna apply it, but okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:20

What? I used to, when I taught Algebra to Kids instead of X and YI would use hearts and stars, and some of them just liked it so much better. Like, I'd be like, because you're like, you get all caught up on the fact that it's an X, and again, no one has explained it to you. Like if I explained it to you, like I actually feel like you'd be like.

Cat 20:36

But X and Y look too much alike too. It should not be x and y that they.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:40

hot take.

Cat 20:41

They look, they look really similar on paper, and it's, if you, when you do two different symbols, they look very different. Much easier to remember. I would mix up X and Y no matter what, because they look alike. They're, yeah, they're the same thing.

Nat 20:56

Star, makes, I mean, I, I can imagine would like, that's so much easier to remember.

Cat 21:00

X and Y are black in my brain. Heart and a star are color, so you know what I

Nat 21:05

in different shapes.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:06

It change. I, I agree. Again, it just makes things interesting. It spices things up, like you need something to, yeah. And then it's not that hard to draw a heart.

Nat 21:13

think of kids who are like neurodiverse and they see like or processed differently. X and Y are the exact same thing.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:20

My God, I feel like we're already, I mean, the, even the, the grade 12 teachers are gonna have something to take away from here, from someone who professes to not know anything about math, but is really getting into the algebra of how it should be taught, and neurodiverse students. Okay. Um,

Parents are worried about way more than just math

Vanessa Vakharia 21:33

I have a question just to, to move on from this very algebraic conversation we're having, which I did not expect to get into, but I'm excited about. Your community is a community of moms, right? Like that's primarily. Do you guys talk about this stuff? Do you talk about math?

Nat 21:48

No, it's usually an, uh, if, if we're talking about math, it's usually with frustration and then people are,

Cat 21:53

it's homework, it's homework,

Nat 21:54

it's homework. We're never like, we're never having a positive, fun conversation about math with our community. You know, one of my, one of our, one

Cat 22:02

of our kids schools gives time.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:06

this, this conversation is insane. Sorry. Go on.

Cat 22:10

One of our kids' schools gives time in each class to do the work, right? So there are four hour, four classes in a day and it's like an hour and a half or whatever, and they have like 40 minutes to do their work. Genius. Because, genius, because the teacher's there, yeah, if you are self-driven, you can get it done, some don't like, you know, but if you learn that self-regulation skill, you can be, I need help with this. Like put out office hours in the times that they're in school rather than all of these other times because there is no time. Like, it's like, you know, as parents you have so much to worry about. Your kids have to be well-rounded, do extracurricular, do sports so they don't get addicted to drugs. Then go and be, then have friends. Then get a job then, you know, and it like you, it's, you are worried they're gonna get pregnant behind the Circle K at the corner store if they're not doing other things. That's the messaging we get. Right? So he we're then we're like, sit down, slam your homework in your mouth. Oh, and have great mental health, but also look amazing. Then have a big group of friends go do the things on the weekend. Get straight A's. 'cause you know what, you're not getting in if you don't get a 99. Because you know, hundreds aren't getting done these days. And keep your GPA up all school 'cause they're looking back to grade nine for your grades. Like the whole thing is ludicrous. So I think that math is part of a frustration of parents trying to juggle their kids over mental health and balance in life that doesn't exist and it falls on us to make things go right, when there's just not time to make things. And then, you know, tutoring's hard because you're paying extra. You're trying to find the time for them to get to class, to go do it. It's winter, it's snowing, they're freezing, and you're like, go do another hour of math at eight o'clock at night.

Nat 24:00

Oh God, though, it just sounds really overwhelming,

Vanessa Vakharia 24:02

I'm so stressed out

Cat 24:05

Yes but that's what we deal with. That's what we deal with.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:08

Well, and I'm also thinking as you, like math pales in comparison to like the potential of getting pregnant behind the Circle K. Like who the fuck cares?

Nat 24:18

I know, but you gotta keep, you gotta keep, 'em busy. You know what I mean?

Vanessa Vakharia 24:22

it's Like you don't have time to worry about their math identity.

Nat 24:26

the other thing I find confusing was, my daughter was in I guess it was a grade 10 math, and she walked out with like a, a really bad mark, like just a pass. When she walked out of grade 10 without the building blocks, I was very worried about her grade 11 math. So I decided that if she was at a school where her math class was three people and she was walking out with a very low mark. In order to pass this grade 11, I wasn't even too worried about how well she did, I'm not gonna leave her to a class of 30, which is, she went from a class of three where she got 50 to a class of 30. I'm gonna take it in my own hands and I am going to get somebody to take the information that she learns at school and teach it to her the way that she learns. And that's what she did at Math Guru. She met with a girl who she really connected with, and she met with her two days a week. And that girl somehow, Taylor's just like, I don't understand how all of a sudden I understand it. I think it's her, but I don't know if the content was different, I couldn't believe that she ended up getting an A, but I don't even know how she did and I never looked at what she was learning and I just, I can't imagine that she went from having no, like 50% of the knowledge, to the next year understanding it.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:42

I'm kind of hearing like, there's just so much emotion around, really, appropriate, I think emotion around being like. It is actually really upsetting to think like, my kid might just be a number to someone and the only thing they care about is whether they achieve this benchmark that somebody has decided is like a good benchmark here. And we're not taking into account like what they're interested in, the fact that they might feel like they're struggling, the fact that they're working really hard, they, they should be rewarded and embraced for being like, wow. Like guess what? You got a 40 last week and today you got a 41. That's fucking awesome. You know, like.

Cat 26:19

We're not built that way though. And our, our, like our post-secondary is not built way. And that they're, they're number, they are because that's what you apply with is numbers

Nat 26:27

and you are the way, how you talk about and think about math and for the people, the teachers that will be listening to this, they're like you. I do think there are some teachers, oh, amazing teachers, end up being, yeah. But I do think there are some, like these are the ones that care, like really care. Do I, we have experienced ones that became teachers, like in any job and they're just, just trying to get through, they don't, I mean, obviously they can't walk.

Cat 26:52

That's a lot of work with very little resources. I don't underestimate that. I just think that, you know, it's like a systemic issue because we're dealing, we are dealing with numbers and we're trying to pump these ki kids through, and we have bell curves and we have, they feel the pressure. They get mixed messages because they're like, oh, it's what's holistic here. Nothing is like, it's such bs. And the kids know exactly what's going on. They know some kids, they all know the, the grades that are padded. They like, everybody, it's like this game we're all playing when everyone's like, oh, it's how hard you work. No it's not. Because the grades, you take your top six grades and apply with that. That's what you apply with. That's, that's the end of the day. So, you know, I think that the pressure they know now of getting into university is not what any of us experienced. Like it was not like So, and I don't think we can validate what they're feeling 'cause we didn't live it.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:44

Do you think if we like just imagine a world where there were no grades? Okay. Oh, this is very hard to do, but just like imagine 'cause actually like getting rid of grading is, not happening, but there's a lot of experimenting with it happening. And like, you know, like in BC for example, they're not giving grades until grade nine. Like you don't get a mark on anything. Like pretend there was no grading and like somehow math class was just like, let's all like learn progress over product. Like what way do you learn, let's try teaching you this in a bajillion different ways. It's relevant. Like do you think there'd be some hope there? Like what would be the thing that like would give us hope that maybe

Cat 28:22

I think you ever get rid of grades. I think you just have to weight how hard that child's working. There will be some kids whose product who pr, whose input doesn't match their output and they will always lose. Right? Like that's just the way life goes. We have to validate that, you know, they're, like you said, if a teacher can take the time and be like, wow you, I saw how hard you worked on this test and I know the result maybe wasn't what you hoped for, but I like the skills you learn in getting there are gonna take you so much further. And I think that's on us as parents too, to let them know, like the fact that you didn't give up when it was really hard is what I look for as an employer. You know, and I think that a, what we all have to know is AI will decimate math in a lot of ways, and it's the way that you learn and how you are able to process or work hard or have relationships within math, right? So I think that those are all real conversations because those people will win. I think that we, we just have to like, you know, we're not learning for the future and we're not igniting their learning lights. And I think that that's what as parents we get frustrated with is we want their learning lights to stay strong because little kids are so inherently, so excited to learn. Yeah. Like they to learn. So badly and they get so excited about learning new things

Nat 29:39

And they can tell when their teacher has a passion or if their teacher, teacher is just reading from the book. They can really feel that.

Cat 29:46

And I think we, we, so at some point we dim their light and I think that everyone needs to look at why their lights dimming. And I think teachers have, you know, and parents, we have the power to like ignite it or dim it. And I think that that's, I think we dim it each year. They get more and more. We grind, we grind, we grind them for the sake of what, I don't know. I don't know what, why we grind them so hard. So they become older people who just are stress cases going into a like I'll never under, it should be joyful, you know.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:18

Yeah, and I mean, just to like validate that whole thing. I mean the, like the reason school was started was because of the industrial revolution. The whole purpose of school was to build like skilled assembly, sign workers, assembly line workers that could follow rules. Like that's what we needed at the time. And the craziest thing is. It really hasn't changed that much. Right.

Cat 30:40

said that. She's like, I'm 80 and they're doing the exact same thing. This is the only industry that hasn't changed. She's like, this is crazy.

Nat 30:48

And the classrooms still look the same, smell the same.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:51

I think this has been so good. I can, this is such a triggering convo and I fucking love it because it's like, math just has continually suffered from the worst fucking communications PR crisis of all time. There's no like, the target market, like here you are and the kids, here's math education over here. There's no communication. So it you're, it's almost like, you know how you're saying it sucks that kids don't know what they're doing in math, so they don't like it. Now there's an additional layer of the parents don't know why the teachers are doing some of the things they're doing. Like, you know what I mean? It's like this endless no communication

Cat 31:22

are squeezed, to get in this amount before this thing. They're squeezed. Like, I feel very badly for teachers too. 'cause I think most going with the right heart and so excited to teach and they get squeezed out of too, right?

Nat 31:33

You're right. Math has really bad like, PR. and I feel like it's so true that a parent, like, I can't explain to my kid why they're learning or why it's important. In reality, my understanding of it is, what I really would wanna say is, just get through this. You're gonna use a calculator for the rest of your life. Like, this isn't important, it's not relatable, like that's what I feel like I would say to them. I'm not gonna say that to them 'cause I don't wanna discourage but I, you just have to do it.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:00

Yeah.

Nat 32:01

There was a moment where there was some really good PR about. Uh, girls in stem, girls in stem, stem, oh. And now it's steam. Like it was big for a while. I remember it. I mean, I, I don't know. And now boys are screwed. Like now we're screwing the boys, so I don't know

Vanessa Vakharia 32:19

We Okay. We that we, we are gonna have to, there's so much we could talk about here. We're gonna have

Nat 32:24

Well, you're talking just two moms of seven children.

Cat 32:27

But I, I do wanna say teachers were, I am really thankful for teachers and I think majority of them are, you know, really doing their best with not a lot. And I do not underestimate that. And I'm not saying that this is on them at all.

Nat 32:39

No.

Cat 32:40

I really do think that teachers are remarkable and you know, I'm so thankful for them. I just think that they're doing the best they can and we are. Don't communicate with them because they're crazy parents now, so you're not allowed to talk to them like you used to. So it is, it is challenging with communication and. I am thankful for faculty and you know, all the people who, who do their best every day. 'Cause I can't imagine how hard it is for them and how much resources they put into these things for themselves, and money they buy, an extra time and they do foster a lot of learning lights. It's just some, some, the system grinds, grinds everybody. Including kids, including

Vanessa Vakharia 33:15

I think that's so well said. And you said it earlier and I think everyone would agree that it is a systemic issue, right? It's like we're like, teachers are like at the bottom being like but a lot of what you said is, so I think we all need to hear, and I wanna ask you guys before I get to the final, like quickfire questions,

What parents want to see changed

Vanessa Vakharia 33:30

the question I get from teachers all the time is. cause you know, I talk to teachers about math, anxiety and math, trauma. So I'll be like, you know, here's how you prevent it in your classroom. Here's how you help students heal. And they'll be like, but what do we do? Like what do we do when the parents have math, trauma or the parents hate math? Like what can we do? And like, I know that's a kind of a broad question, but is there anything like for you two, since you're both like, well, math really isn't my thing. Is there something a teacher could do or say that would be helpful in terms of having to raise kids who need to do math for a chunk of time.

Cat 34:04

I think just acknowledging that, know math is hard for some, and that's okay. And your kid can still be successful even if they're not a hundred in math. But together, let's do our best to support them and make it more bearable or more enjoyable, the process so that they learn how to learn. Let's stop focusing on the number and let's help them understand that learning, isn't always gonna be perfect, but if we can encourage them to not shut down because they're just not good at it, that's a bigger lesson. And I think it's just acknowledging like, it's okay. Like let's all be okay that we're going to, they're gonna get through it, they have to get through it, so let's do the best we can to support them, rather than squeezing a number out of them, be like, how can I support you? And this is how you can support me. And you know, like if we're struggling, let's think about ways to problem solve this. And here's how you can problem solve at home. Like, this is what I suggest.

Nat 34:55

And from a practical, just literally, if, if I were to say like, how do you make this more like, entertaining or interesting is before each lesson. Try to give some sort of an example of how this would be important to either their brain, their, uh, decision making, uh, how they would apply this lesson in real life

Cat 35:16

And maybe talk about ChatGPT. Like how they can use it as a tutor. Like, you know, that's a really, that is a source some can have access to, and it really is great for kids who maybe are struggling and, you know, be, be okay with technology and how they can access it to support everybody in the house without condemning it. 'Cause I think that that's another thing, uh, an issue we're all dealing with is kids are secretly using it now and trying to find ways to go around it. But let, I think when teachers talk about how to incorporate it, they're like, oh my God, that teacher taught me this skill and now I can apply it. And, and you can actually learn from practicing in a different way.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:49

Yep.

Cat 35:50

They can teach their kids how they learn. You are winning if you can just open up, you know, you like to write it down, you like to watch a video, like get the parents to help with that.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:59

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Q1 & Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 36:01

okay, I'm about to do the final two questions, but I wanna know if you guys ever thought you'd be on a math podcast. Like, are you excited?

Nat 36:08

No, but I You're not like, you're not doing math. You know what I mean? We're having conversations. And you are literally the opposite of what I would think. Like, uh, I think every person who's interested in math would be like,

Cat 36:19

and I think every person who took math from me would probably like math. Yes. You know what I mean? Totally. So I think that you're an anomaly. Yeah. I'd like to meet more like

Vanessa Vakharia 36:26

I can't wait to teach you algebra one day with the X's and Y's and the emojis. We're gonna have so much fun, Cat.

Nat 36:30

In In in color. Please.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:34

Okay. I'm gonna ask you guys each one question. This is the final two questions I ask everyone. You're each getting one. Okay? So the first one, you guys, you guys can pick. First question is, and we've kind of touched about this, but let's say you can only choose one thing you wanna change about the way math is taught in schools. What's it gonna be?

Cat 36:51

What's the second one?

Vanessa Vakharia 36:52

The second one? I feel like that you just did a little math there, to be honest. By even just being like, I need to know this.

Cat 37:01

I reasoned.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:02

You fucking reason girl. Okay. Uh, the second one is if someone was like, I feel this is a weird question to ask you, 'cause I kind of like, but okay. But if someone said, Hey listen, I'm just not a math person, it's not my thing, I can't learn it. What would you say?

Cat 37:16

Oh, you, well, it's a choice. You two, you're choosing not to right now, you're choosing not to learn and that's okay. But you know, you have to look at where you wanna go with math and where, look at your,

Nat 37:26

an adult or a kid.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:29

I did not think this was gonna be your answer.

Nat 37:31

Because if my friend was like, my friend was like, I'm just not a math person, I'd be like, who fucking cares me either.

Cat 37:35

I think you just have to look at, I think you have to work backwards if you want. I always say to my kids, if you want this result, but you're doing this, then that doesn't match up. So what do you want? If you want this, then you gotta go for this. If you don't want it, then don't be worried about it. But if you wanna go and be a math teacher, you need math. So you need to get a higher mark.

Nat 37:52

Yeah, and I think the only thing that I'd like to see changed is just to, um, help. Them understand, oh, the, like, the practicality of learning and doing math

Cat 38:01

and put some colors in there and some emojis. No, I'm not joking. Make it a little more interesting for the people who learn differently.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:09

what I'm laughing at is that I said you each get to pick one and instead what you, you tricked me into giving you both, and then you both answered both of them.

Nat 38:18

Yeah, so we multiplied by a bunch and got a whole lot of, we had a sum number of four instead of two

Vanessa Vakharia 38:25

I mean, we've now done math for I'd say at least 5% of this interview. Okay.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 38:29

we are gonna close up here. Where can everyone find you? Cat and Nat

Nat 38:32

Oh, @catandnat everywhere. everywhere that they have it, it's Cat and Nat. Our podcast is Cat and Nat Unfiltered. We have catandnat.com. Just everything, everywhere. Cat and Nat.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:43

This a really important talk, I think. It was insane, but it was important. We might all get canceled. That's okay.

Nat 38:49

in the math world. I'm not worried.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:51

Well, that is where my career lies, but yeah, no problem. I can't believe I'm gonna interview your daughter tomorrow. Now this is like

Nat 38:56

I know.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:56

layer.

Nat 38:58

Well, she has a lot of, like, she's, it's been a journey for her and so she's got a lot to say and she also has, you know, really appreciated you, um, giving her like other ways to think about it.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:10

Well, we'll see. Okay guys, we're gonna say goodbye, but don't hang up quite yet. I hate this part. How do you guys say bye on your podcast? Like what's the

Nat 39:17

See ya. We'll just hang up on you. Thanks for coming. Bye.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:21

There we go. It's done. We're done. Okay, we're done Okay. I don't know what to say after that rollercoaster, like I'm still kind of speechless and as you know, that is not normal for me. I'll be honest, like it was such a challenging conversation for me because the whole time I was torn between validating their feelings as parents while defending teachers who have to work. In a broken system and the reality is that it's all true, right? Two things can be true. And I also felt like my role was sort of to listen. Like I, I, I wanted to like, not argue, but I kind of wanted to debate and like defend and be like, but this is why we do this. And I sort of realized a few minutes in. My role right now is to actually listen to their feelings, and that is the approach I always champion in math class with our own students. Our role is not to defend, it's to listen to our students' feelings, to make sure they feel seen and heard. That's often the first step to like solving the problem and changing their relationship with math. I'm so glad we did this episode because teachers and parents are partners in raising these kids and everyone benefits if we all understand each other's perspective better. So I wanna put the ball in your court. And I realize that now all of a sudden, I'm a sports metaphor person, I guess, but okay. I wanna know, what did this episode bring up for you? What did you agree with? What did you disagree with? And I also just had a thought like, do schools need to do more parent education around this? Like I know we do a lot of parent education around content and how we're teaching math, but do we need to have more parent nights around what Nat and Cat brought up? So for this week's Math Therapy homework. I'm thinking, I want you to put yourself in their shoes. If someone says, we should just be teaching math the old way or whatever, I was never good at math, it's boring, I hate it. Instead of being mad about it and getting defensive, which I am very guilty of doing, ask them why they feel that way and like see if you can empathize and then respond from that place. And I wanna know what happens. So remember, you can text the podcast by hitting the link in your show notes. You can DM me at the Math Guru, or you can email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca. I really want to hear from you. I know there was a lot in this episode, and I'm so curious what you're thinking and feeling, And if you've made it this far, first of all, thank you, you rock. But more importantly, you are in for a treat because on next week's episode, I'll be talking with Nats daughter Taylor. She was so honest about what high school is really like and was the perfect compliment to this week's episode. So make sure you and everyone you know and love are subscribed to the podcast so you don't miss it. And again, just as a little reminder, Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it is produced and edited by the amazing David Kochberg, and the music you're hearing is by our band, Goodnight Sunrise.

Outtake - bye!

Nat 42:12

bye. Bye bye.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:13

Oh, bye ya.

Nat 42:14

No, I'm saying, you're saying, how do you guys say bye? We're like, okay. Where can everybody find you? Okay, great. Bye Bye bye.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:19

And then you don't hang up.

Nat 42:21

Yeah, we hang up.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:22

See, I think it's different because they hang up and if I was gonna hang up on them it would be more natural to say bye. But I know I'm not hanging up.

Nat 42:29

Why aren't you hanging up?

Vanessa Vakharia 42:30

Because we have to like make, why aren't we hanging up?

Nat 42:35

You

Vanessa Vakharia 42:36

because we have to make sure it like, I don't know. Don't you have to like make sure it uploads or something? We have to take a selfie, like I think that

Nat 42:41

Oh, okay. Oh, we don't do any of that.