Sue Besant: 0:02

Maths always felt to me like it's just a foreign language and to realize I could do it, I felt enlightened and empowered I started to become a different person in every part of my life.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:17

Have you ever been so convinced you were bad at something that you didn't even question it anymore? it wasn't just an insecurity, it was just your identity, like, I'm not a math person. Done. End of conversation. This episode is about what happens when that story gets completely rewritten. Today I am talking to Sue Besant, and I need you to really let this next part sink in because it's gonna blow your mind. Sue was Jo Boaler's first ever student. Before Stanford, before Growth Mindset, Jo Boaler was a new teacher like so many of us have been, and her first real challenge was when Sue walked into her class. As a kid, Sue was a classic troublemaker who saw no future for herself in education, largely because the system kept literally telling her she was hopeless. But when she met Jo, everything changed. And when Sue learned that with the right support she could actually learn math, the entire world opened up to her and like I'm not exaggerating, finally building confidence in math domino all the way up to her running her own sound engineering company all across Southeast Asia. Always say that overcoming math failure is the reason I started a band, so it's such like a magical, full circle twist that Sue's experience overcoming math also led her to a career in music. This was one of the most meaningful conversations I've had on the pod, and that's because I see myself in Sue's story. After believing for so long that I simply wasn't a math person, when my teacher showed me that I could do math, it really truly changed my life, just like Sue. And that's why I became a math teacher in the first place. That's why I started Math Therapy. To share stories like ours and show that overcoming math trauma really is the gateway to believing that we are capable of anything we can dream of. This is the craziest plot twist, I actually got to hang out with Jo and Sue in Bali last year, and honestly it was just so heartwarming to see them still connected after like 40 plus years. And by the way, for this interview, Sue joined me from her home, which explains all the cute bird chirping you hear in the background. I know at some point during this convo, someone is going to pop into your mind that needs to hear this episode. So when that happens, pause and please send this to them. As always, you can text the podcast to let me know what you think of this app by hitting the link in the show notes for this episode. If you've ever felt written off or if you teach kids who don't believe in themselves yet, or if you just need some proof right now today that anything is possible, this episode is for you. Your story's actually so fascinating and it's not something we hear a lot because it's a story of someone who started off being told that they were never gonna be good at math and who never felt good at math, who then met this incredible teacher, who we all know now as Jo Boaler, and whose life sort of changed as a result. So let's go back to the beginning of your, a bit of your math journey. Let me be specific. What was math like for you when you were in school? What was school like in general? Because I don't think this was just about math necessarily.

Sue Besant: 3:15

No, not at all. It was, um, Yeah. School was a place that you were at until you were 16 and you could get out and get a job. Really? For me and the friends around me, um, none of us were really doing very well at school. You know, whether it was a sort of cultural thing, social working class London. Parents were supportive but not nurturing, if you Like, You know, my parents were great, doing the best that they could with what they had, but really just were happy if you stayed in school. you know, got there every day and then eventually got out and, and did and, and yeah, found a job. So for me, school was really boring. was, a place just to, I had a lot of fun. I can't say I didn't have fun, so it was a lot of laughs and jokes and fun. couldn't find, I couldn't apply myself and I don't think I was really trying, as in, you know, there were the posh kids that worked and did well at school and were gonna have great careers. And then there were us, the rest of us who would, uh, mess around a lot. You know, I was definitely a disruptive kid.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:21

Like, what were you up to? What were you doing?

Sue Besant: 4:23

Um, just being disruptive in class, you know, tying shoelaces together. You know, someone leaned back on a chair, pulling it a bit more, throwing things around, just being a pain in the ass basically. I must have been a nightmare in classrooms. I was. And that's what you did. And honestly, if you sort of sat down with a book and start doing something, you'd be berated by your friends. You know, what are you doing? That's not what we do. You know, we are the kids that just have fun, no thoughts of, you know, what are you gonna do in the future. Career, university, college you just knew, get to 16 and find a job and start making money and living life. And we sort of thought that was par for the course for us. I was, dunno what you call it, we call it bunking off. I was truanting a lot, you know, it was So boring. We'd go to a park and just hang out and hide away somewhere

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:12

Bunking off is like skipping class?

Sue Besant: 5:14

Bunking off is like skipping

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:16

Okay. Just wanted to clarify. Okay.

Sue Besant: 5:18

So we'd be doing that a few days a week as we're really doing nothing. And just being there to sit through whatever these teachers would tell us. You know, you couldn't, you could ask questions, but it'd be like, just follow the books, follow the rules. And if you weren't, if you were disruptive or you, you know, now what I'd say is you needed to learn in a different way, you'd be put in the bottom of every class where it was really the kids that they've given up on. You know you're in

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:45

And what did that mean? Yeah. What's Group four? What happens in there?

Sue Besant: 5:49

Not a lot. So group four, I felt like looking back on it now would be, you know, more likely to have a supply teacher in there, or maybe a junior teacher or someone who just sat there and babysat us and let us do what we were doing. More or less tried to keep control, you know, keep you in your seat. but didn't really try and teach us much. Just kept us there. Like we'd sort of we're the, we just need to stay in school. We have to be there? But we're not gonna learn anything. So, and as a kid we are like, this is great, you know, this is perfect. We can just mess around and not do anything. Cause learning didn't make any sense to me. As in, I loved learning stuff. Like outside of that, you know, if I'd work, you know, with my brother I was learning about sports and fitness and health, you know, with my dad learning about his car and stuff like that. I loved learning, but I couldn't, I couldn't think of that as being school learning that was books and numbers and things that made no sense to me. So that's sort of where I sat until I was now 13, 14. That's when things really sort of changed in my life.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:59

Okay, so before we get to the, to the big plot twist, you know, you were put in, group four and all teachers were just kind of like, yeah, yeah, yeah, we just want you to stay in school, but like you have no kind of hope kind of thing. Do you think that affected like your self-esteem outside of school or not really?

Sue Besant: 7:15

Absolutely. I mean, my home life was challenging. Dunno how much detail to go in there. But, you know, my, um, mom was an alcoholic, and dad, although they lived together, did not get on well at all. And, um, as I say, they were good parents. They, they did what they could for me, but their relationship was, um, I didn't wanna be at home, be in that environment. I was definitely a scared kid. I didn't realize how scared I was. I still feel some of that now. But I was a real frightened child. I'd felt very insecure. So I was bringing all that to school. And then you come to school and you're told you're useless as well. Pretty much, you know, there's nothing we can do with you. So then you're put into bottom class are in school. But you are around a group of other people that you feel like are either in the same situation or sometimes worse than, so you sort of group together and you do put a front on. I definitely came across a cocky, cheeky, confident kid, but I definitely wasn't that I was anything but that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:21

So different than you now, you know.

Sue Besant: 8:26

but yeah. You, I, didn't have much self esteem. I like I, I had, I, I felt like there was a spark in there that would come out sometimes when I found something that I loved doing. Like I knew that I loved music. I'd already started to play the drums in school, sports and music in primary school before I got into secondary school. You know, it was all sports and music and I moved towards sports because it was the one time where I felt like I was noticed, you know, on a sports field. Sports day was my day. Forget the other 364. There's one day where someone's gonna say to me, you did well. Otherwise I'd never be hearing that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:05

That is so sad. I hate this. I'm really sorry. That sounds horrible.

Sue Besant: 9:10

The thing is, at the time you just live it, and you don't realize it's not normal. You surround yourself with others that are sort of, you know, similar to you. I just look at others and think at least things are not as bad as that. And you put up a front. I do think sports was a really big thing for me. My brother was in, he was a professional weightlifter and he moved me towards all of that, and it became my one strength. I always thought, whatever I can't do, this is something I can do. And music, I loved music. I, think I, was like 11 years old. My dad brought me this four track recorder, before I knew anything about sound engineering, it was this massive unit had two tape cassette things in it. I dunno if you ever used a cassette, Vanessa, two tapes

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:00

I've made my share of mix tapes. Don't you worry.

Sue Besant: 10:02

You could record on one and then you could bounce it to the other one and had a little guitar, I couldn't play guitar very well, I can't still, but you'd put a little thing down and then you could bounce it over. And at the time I never knew anything about sound engineering or that'd ever be a future for me. I knew that this thing was something I loved. So I knew I had this creative element, but I never linked all of that to school. I just thought school is a place where you're, you're just imprisoned in a place where no one believes in you

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:31

Ugh.

Sue Besant: 10:32

There's nowhere to go forward. You just have to do it. It's part of life. And sometimes you'd be, you know, the elders around your parents would just be like, yeah, just stick it out. Because that's what they did. So wasn't much positivity there, apart from my friends.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:49

Yeah. Well, and it's so, it's what's so beautiful, what you said before, and I think it's so important to hear when you were like, I loved learning, like I loved learning things, but that's not what I was doing at school, right? Like I wasn't like learn, whatever they called. Learning at school was not the same as my experience of learning outside of school, which I loved. Which is like oof. Like what are we doing in school, which is supposed to be a place of learning that turns it into this icky thing, especially for a student like you who gen, who you're like, I want to learn things, but what I'm doing in school, it doesn't feel like learning. So, I mean, I just thought that, I think that's a really important point to note is that what do we mean when we say teaching and what do we mean when we say learning?

Sue Besant: 11:33

The other thing. I'm thinking of now is the difference between, okay, there's learning. We don't all learn the same way. easy It's 40 years ago. It's not easy in a classroom of, I dunno, it'd be 20, 30 kids to say you need this and you need that. but the, the thing then was not asking questions. And I don't know how much schooling has changed, but it was questioning that's what you couldn't do. So if I had shown some interest, but said, but why or why is it like that? Or why are we learning that? You don't ask those questions. And I don't know if teaching, I hope it isn't that way anymore. It would be just follow what you are being given. And that was another big thing that if I did ever sort of think, oh that's might be interesting, but why or what's that for? That was shut down.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:18

Wow.

Sue Besant: 12:18

quite, uh, a big thing as Well,'cause maybe there would've been that moment. So anyway, yes,

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:23

no, and it's, it's really important to acknowledge because yes, I would also like to say, I hope teaching isn't like that now, but I know when, I know a lot of students who still experience that, you know, that it's not completely gone. And also, it's so crazy to think that, like, obviously if you're learning something, the number one question you're gonna ask is why. That that's a sign that the student in front of you is interested. Like, it's like, you know what like that would be as a teacher? Yeah. It's maybe disrupting what your, your sentence or what you're doing, but that's a gift. That the student has asked you why, they want to know something, like you've got somebody in front of you ready to learn. So I think it's so nuts that we have traditionally and historically gotten annoyed by that question. I mean, I, I always got told, I asked too many questions and all sorts of things, but it is really funny in retrospect to be like, but why? Huh? But seriously, but why, why would we be annoyed at a question anyways? Carry on. Okay.

Sue Besant: 13:20

So, I was, yeah, 13, 14. A new group of teachers came into the school and Jo Boaler was one of them. And, uh, another teacher was really important to me at that time, Jackie Tomlin is my English teacher. So ended up being lucky that they're two very important subjects. You know, it wasn't woodwork and home economics. It was two important useful subjects. These young teachers come along, they didn't seem young to us at the time. When you're 14, early twenties, they were 22, 23. It still seems old, right? And they're a teacher, but something, you know, I wish I could remember those exact moments, that's why I sort of wish that social media was as it was now, I'm not a big

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:00

You don't wish that, I promise you.

Sue Besant: 14:02

wish it could have been documented that

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:04

Yeah.

Sue Besant: 14:04

those moments, you

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:05

Yeah.

Sue Besant: 14:06

But memory is a great thing too. these teachers came into our lives. It's not only me, a lot of people are affected by them. And would've gone into a math class and been my normal self and, you know, troublesome and in the bottom group and Jo was teaching the bottom group. And there's something that she remembers that I actually don't remember me saying, you know, why should we bother? But just having a younger energy in a room already I know would've changed things. Someone that's young and, you know, ready to, it was their, I think it was both of their first teaching positions.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:44

Yeah, Jo said your class was like the first class she ever taught. So crazy.

Sue Besant: 14:49

Group of unruly kids. Um, but we were fun. At least we were fun, we had personality. And you know, I asked questions, as I just talked about, you know, why should we bother? What's the point of it? And I'll say that of many, probably of all the subjects, maths was the one where I'm like, what on earth are we doing here? When is this gonna be useful to me in life? When am I ever gonna apply this any other time? What are all these? just a means to an end to get a past if you're gonna be a doctor or a surgeon or some career that I thought otherwise, what do we need it for? It didn't make any sense to me, and I genuinely thought, there's no way I can learn this. brain cannot do this stuff. This is for, again, the posh kids. The, you know, those middle class kids that came in, sat down, did their work, it's not us. What for? I asked the question, you know, why should we bother? And, there would've been a response. Suddenly someone's actually saying, well, this is why you should bother. And there's, there's an answer. And I think from there.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:01

Do you remember what they said? Like the what, why you should bother?

Sue Besant: 16:04

I can't remember. What I think it would've been. And what I remember, something that I do remember where this happened in that timeline is, it might have been fractions or something like that, and me saying, look, how can you even learn this? How do you even start to understand it, and Jo being able to say, take another situation, another format, you know, something, a bit more real world, what I would get would make sense to me. One example, okay, can you figure this out? Put something to me. of course I can, because this makes total sense to me. You know, I can divide that and yeah, I can. It's about things that I know and then saying that's fractions. Firstly someone taking the time out to bother doing that. Secondly, understanding that all these numbers on a page can actually be applied in such different ways to something that makes sense to me. And it was a, it's a, it's a life changer, you know, it's a discovery of I can do this. Moments like that, of being shown something and saying, that cannot be the same as what you're trying to explain to me here, then finding that that self-worth, that realization that maybe I can actually do it. And that would've been a trickle of more and more of those things. Once I started to realize I can learn, just absolutely amazing, unbelievable feeling of, wow, I can do it. At that time, just to mention something else, you are surrounded, you surround yourself with people that are in your situation. So I'm in this bottom group with some friends that I'm to transition from because it wasn't, it didn't look good to be learning. like, why are you becoming a goodie? Why are you becoming, what are you doing? This is not what we do. So I'd also started to transition my group of friends to other friends to be able to still do it.'Cause I thought I can't keep my old friends while we all just mess about and start being this person who learns. So all this was happening in my life. Um, and I was also struggling with my sexuality at the time, and my English teacher happened to be coming out at that time, something you

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:16

Oh my God,

Sue Besant: 18:17

years ago in school. So these two young, you know, new fresh teachers with new ideas that are creative. Maths always felt to me like it's just a foreign language and to realize I could do it, I felt enlightened and empowered and like a different, I started to become a different person in every part of my life. For someone to say, you can do this, and I believe in you and it's possible, that started something. And these teachers, these people are taking the extra time out of school time because I needed the extra time to be able to, now, now the goal is now I can learn, how am I gonna pass these subjects? Because you know what, what was being explained to me by Jo and Jackie, my other teacher, is you need your basics. Now you know, you can learn what's, what's the future? What can you do? Hang on a minute. Maybe I can do more. Okay, well let's get a pass. So that was the journey of someone believing in me and giving a shit and making that time for me and showing me that it was possible just by showing me how to learn something in a different way, in a creative way. And I definitely, that, that was my way. Um, that's what worked for me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:37

This is, it's, I, I'm like feeling so emotional. Just, I mean, it's, it's funny'cause I think you've probably told me some version of this like four times because I make you tell everyone every time I introduce you to someone, but it's such an incredible story, and what's so crazy is it's 40 years later and there's still so much emotion when you talk about it. Like, I know people can't see you right now, but I'm looking at you and I can just see, you know, that it's, it's that transformative that it's funny that you're saying, you're like, I can't remember the exact thing, but what I'm, I'm hearing and seeing is you can remember that feeling like that feeling sticks with you forever. And that's why I always say, I mean, I love teaching math, but it's not about the math. For me, it's that math can be a gateway into opening up these feelings because math is where so many students feel, exactly like you said, this is the one thing I promise you I cannot learn, my brain is not designed for this, this is for the smart people and I'm not one of them. And when you change that, it's like that feeling sticks with you. And you just said, you were like, I started transforming into a new person in so many different ways. And one other thing I wanna highlight is that I think sometimes we think, like to help a student that's struggling as much as you were, you know, and that's, that's checked out as much as you were, you've gotta do some big, grandiose gesture. And what I'm hearing from you is Jo and Jackie, yes, they were creative in the sense that they were teaching their subjects in a creative way. But what you've said more than that, the thing that I don't know, like that I'm clocking you, repeat, is they believed in me. They told me they believed in me, and then they showed up and spent extra time with me. And it's like that action, that doesn't go unnoticed. Like you were 13, 14, but you noticed that, you clocked, wow, this person is taking time, to talk to me and to explain stuff to me. That must mean they believe in me and then they're vocalizing that they believe in me. So to never underestimate how that gesture, and it's something you can say in two minutes, I believe in you. It's something you can take five minutes to spend time with the student because you don't think there a write off that pays off like.

Sue Besant: 21:36

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:37

It just as much as if not more than the actual way you're teaching the content. Because now you're in the game because you're like, oh, okay, well now I'm paying attention, I guess. Right? And now the delivery of the content can be absorbed, whatever that delivery is. And thankfully in this case, it was creatively the way you, you needed it. But you've, I mean, it's just, it's so cool. And what's fascinating is what, because I know, I know what happens next, but you're now at this point where you're sort of transforming and you're feeling like you kind of have to like caterpillar into butterfly out of your friend group, right? You're like, okay, like my whole identity's changing, I no longer wanna kind of, you know, what bunk about, what did you say, bunk, bunk out?

Sue Besant: 22:18

Bunk off. No, the opposite, I mean, I spent all my hours at school, and again, when home life is a challenge

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:23

right?

Sue Besant: 22:24

Now I found a new place to be, and imagine that's place I'm at. I couldn't wait to get back there and learn more and take more. And once I got a taste of it, and up to this podcast, I really started to sort of sit down and have a, have a real think of what do I remember. I was trying to find memories, I sort of went through my twenties and my thirties, maybe not looking back as much. I did appreciate the help and what I'd been given, but I didn't understand the scale of it, I think until I was in my forties how big this is, how big it was in life. Not just maths or English, or, it changed my entire life and it gave me the confidence to do everything else I did from there on.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:07

I, I talk a lot about students with math, trauma, and you know, all the ways that can develop and one of the ways is simply having it made so clear to you in so many ways that nobody believes in you, right? That you shouldn't even bother. We just want you to pass. You were given those messages when you were put into the lower sections of your class, you were given those messages by teachers that were just like, well just pass. You were given that messages, even by well meaning parents that were like, don't worry about it. You just need to get through it and get out of here. That's all you're capable of, and

Sue Besant: 23:33

The pass bit wasn't included. Just to mention, not pass just stay to school until the end of school. Don't get arrested. Forget pass. If you are in group 4, you are not passing. And there was an incident where one of my teachers went to the head of the department and said, I want to bring someone up from group four, I think they can pass. The head of maths asked who it was, and when my name was mentioned, he just thought it was hilarious. Genuinely thought that was a hilarious thought. Like he definitely thought there was no way in the world I could ever pass. And I did. But there you go. If that's what younger teachers, new teachers are getting from, and it wasn't just like he was, I can't be bothered. He was like, really thought there was no for me, it was a waste of time. And if your teacher feels that way, imagine that energy you're getting constantly.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:29

Well, and that's it. And I was gonna say, you probably like, because you're saying, well, it took me until I was around 40 to even basically unpack what this whole experience had done for me. A kid who's like, you know, 11, 12, whatever, younger, or like even a bit older, you're not thinking, oh, because this teacher did this thing, my self-esteem has become lower'cause I'm getting this message. None of that is happening consciously, right? It's just a vibe you're getting, an energy you're getting that trickles down and you just shrink smaller and smaller and smaller and don't try and don't wanna show up. And conversely, for all the teachers who are making these huge differences in students' lives, they might not even know it right away. Right. But it does over time play out in the sense of like, oh my God, what has led me to be the person I've become? Like, that's what, I mean that's why it's so great to have you on the podcast and be able to talk it out. Most of us don't even reflect on what has caused us to be the way we are. Right? That's what like deep therapy is for. So certainly most people aren't thinking about that, about their math experience, but it's there and it's so important and it's so salient and it's like so, so impactful. So anyway, so you get to this point, you're passing, you're on your way up. What happens next?'Cause I, I really want everyone to know what you ended up doing with your crazy life after this.

Sue Besant: 25:39

Don't big it up too much.

Vanessa Vakharia: 25:41

It's so cool though. You're so cool. But I also wanna know what you thought you were gonna do before this. Like what was your plan?

Sue Besant: 25:48

Honestly, sports, as I say, I one strength. I didn't know what that would mean because I knew, well, sports, what does that mean? I'm not gonna be able to become a PE teacher or work in an environment, without having some qualifications. But I kind of didn't know what I'd do with it. Honestly, I think at 13, 14, I wasn't thinking career at all, I was thinking what jobs are gonna be out there? What are my friends doing? What are they getting when they're leaving school? Okay, and I have many friends that ended up working at, you know, a family business or the local supermarket or that, wrong with that,

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:22

No, no, no.

Sue Besant: 26:23

Was their trajectory. That's all that was there for them. All that they felt, you know? So I don't think I knew what I'd do, but I knew I loved music and, and sports. Luckily for me, there's a lot of luck in there, I think, a friend of a friend knew this training scheme that was for sound engineering. I was playing drums at the time. I was in little band and she said to me, if you don't know what you want to do, this is in music. I didn't know what sound engineer was. What does that even mean? If you don't know, you don't know. Engineering sounds then? So she said, listen, if you're into music, you can play drums all day. They've got a recording studio, can play drums, you can, I thought not? And I went for an interview and I needed my maths and my English to get into that course. What are the chances? I at least needed those passes.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:11

Um, Deepak Chopra always says that luck,'cause you keep saying, oh, there's a lot of luck involved, and his definition of luck is when opportunity meets preparedness. Right, you're prepared, and then the opportunity comes and you can take it because you have prepared, like just what you said, what are the chances you need English and math? Well, you've prepared and now the opportunity's there and you can seize it.

Sue Besant: 27:33

Um, and it was scary, I'll be honest. But I was loving it. It was absolutely amazing, and I was there for two years. So now I'm on this, in this school of audio engineering. You learn theory of music and practical and I was loving it. Like I was just absorbing all of this, thought this is something I'd really love to do. I mean, how fun is that as well? You're on a course where you're just, you know, you are a musician, David's a musician. Imagine just being in a recording studio and being told all day, just do this. You know? And we got paid a little bit. Just a little bit. That that's insane. Like this is like a dream. And And then you are given a place, given a placement. They try and find you a studio to work in and again, luck met preparedness, and I was put in this little tiny studio with it was actually in Fleet Street, which is not somewhere you normally have recording studios. It's where all the newspapers are produced over there. I was 17 then and it was managed by two older guys and they owned the business. and that's where my learning really, really happened. That's where I really grew in this, in the industry. We were writing songs for people. They'd come in with an idea and so I had to learn chord progressions and so on, on the keyboard.'cause we wrote them more, it was all produced with a live band. So I started learning that and I picked that up real quick. I couldn't really read music well. And we just became thick as thieves myself and Za, who was my business partner. We grew in the business and went on to set up our own recording studio. So I was there for about two and a half years. Then we went out on our own, moved to another part of London, holloway, and set up a recording and rehearsal room of our own. We were luckily funded, luckily funded by the person who had the studio in Fleet Street. He saw something in us and luck gave us an opportunity to set up our own studio. That's what we did. We had a 24 track studio, had rehearsal rooms and, you know, 18 years old to have your own business of that kind. It actually wasn't overwhelming because we both felt totally ready for it, again amazing. Amazing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:49

How much math did you use in your job as a Sound Eng, you know, at the recording studio? Did you, do you think you used a lot of math?

Sue Besant: 29:56

Well, I must have.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:00

You can say no, I'm actually just curious.

Sue Besant: 30:02

It, I must have been using it without realizing, of course, I'm not thinking, okay, well when did hypotenuse come into the picture, and when did, but I would've applied some of the learning, the way I learned in the studio work, you know, and once we became computer based, you know, and timing and other things, I would've made use of it. I just don't think I was aware of it. What I thought at that point is it got me what I needed to get here. Which it did, it got me

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:31

which it did.

Sue Besant: 30:32

didn't understand the scale of it, and it got me here, as in now I feel like, I felt like I could learn anything that point.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:40

Okay. Let us just pause on that because it's interesting. I was asking a leading question. I was like, I'm gonna actually ask her if she thinks she learns math. If she used math, and you kind of went to where. What I was sort of thinking is, yeah, perhaps you didn't use the quadratic formula or Pythagorean Theorem and the hypotenuse, but did you use the skills you learned in math class? Right? Persevering to a problem, like figuring out another way of looking at it, like relating things to what you already know so you can learn the new thing. You kind of did, right? You went into this brand new space, you didn't know anything about sound engineering, and you fucking figured it out. And what's even bigger is what you said that you had the confidence that you could learn anything. And that's almost the biggest thing that you used, right?

Sue Besant: 31:25

And with maths being the most, the scariest, you know, when, it's the scariest subject. It's the one you just, of every class you want to go to, you do not wanna go to maths. Please don't

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:36

Why?

Sue Besant: 31:38

Well, when I say it was boring, it wasn't I just didn't get it. Just numbers on a page and more numbers on another page and more numbers that you will not use in real life. You know, why do I need to know divide that by whatever. Who cares? I've got a calculator, I'll use that. You know, it was really, it wasn't, I was, I thought I was bored. It was a foreign language. And if you can learn the most, the most difficult thing that you thought was the most difficult thing, just by thinking of it in another way to say it opens the door, I felt, I did feel invincible, I probably felt too invincible, know, I thought that anything was possible, but then anything becomes possible. And me and, and me and my business partner we're both really young, you know? Everyone coming into the studio was always amazed that it was these two kids running the studio and applying to all different things and being able to be flexible in that environment, as in feeling you can learn anything, it really was anything and everything. You know, from running a studio, running rehearsal rooms, working out how to,'cause we had storage there, how does storage work? How do we put, and then you're making bacon sandwiches for them sometimes, you know, we had a little kitchen, we'd make breakfast for them as well. All those things from A to Z, I never looked at anything and thought, well I can't do that one. As, from every, as complicated or simple as, we had to be able to be multitasking, flexible, open-minded and up for anything, and we were. And we problem solved constantly in that studio. Whether it were on a financial level, on a level of how are we wiring this, we wired up that studio, we completely built that studio ourselves. We put all the soundproofing paneling up, we put the carpet in, we painted the walls, and we did all of the wiring. Even that small job, well, this isn't working, well how can we do it? And I know that came from what was given to me when I was 14 16 years old, really. And another thing to say, friends now that I meet from days, all different walks of life. They still sort of think, well, you were special. There must have been something special about

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:45

Ha.

Sue Besant: 33:46

I wasn't.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:47

Okay.

Sue Besant: 33:48

I wasn't special. Just, was ready for it. There was a kid sitting right next to me that could have done everything that I'd done if they'd have wanted to, but maybe just not quite ready whether it's because of home life or whatever else has that block up of, I'm resisting that at the moment, I'm not ready for it, but there's nothing special about me. I just had the right opportunities and the right people to be able to become what I became, what you know, to, to fulfill my potential.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:17

we have the tendency to attribute our failures to ourselves. So if I fuck something up, I'm like, oh, it was my fault. But if something good happens to me or if I, if something good happens, like I'm successful at something, i'm more likely to attribute it to external circumstances. So I fuck something up, I'm like, that was my fault. I do something good, and I'm like, oh, well that's because it was easier, that's because I got this other person helped me, that's because, you know what I mean? Like so in this case,

Sue Besant: 34:43

Yeah, I do do that too.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:45

Yeah. Well, it's funny, you do, you keep saying like, oh, I, I'm, I'm lucky. And it's like, well, you also like you work hard and you this and that, right, um, so it is something I think we have to be aware of, and I think that's really interesting that you say your friends still will be like, oh, well you're special

Sue Besant: 34:58

and knowing them now as adults and even think of them, I think we talked about this before at some point, even thinking of them as kids now and knowing them as adults. Like their potential, and not everybody, some people are happy with how things panned out in

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:12

Totally.

Sue Besant: 35:13

but I know a couple in particular that felt like there should have been more out there for them. but they just never found that, lifeline. They

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:22

Mm-hmm.

Sue Besant: 35:23

and when I think of what they used to do,, some of the ingenious ways they find to get around doing work to get what they wanted to

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:30

Right.

Sue Besant: 35:31

They were so smart and so capable and so able, but couldn't find it in them. And when I look at that now, that kind of makes me a little bit sad because, you know, and there's some of those people are people I did move away from because I saw that. I saw you're not, you're not gonna be able to come along for the journey. I'd never tell that group of people that I was going back for extra work at school.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:53

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Sue Besant: 35:54

a no no. And that's the other thing, if you are around a group of people where you don't feel like you can do that, are you really gonna leave this lifeline, these people around you? Are you gonna choose them, or you're gonna get torn between? And you know, I made that choice. I was able to, I was, everything was set up right for me to do that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:14

Yes. And this is also why we, I think we have to be very cognizant, especially we're talking about like teenagers or kids, right? You know, there's a point where a school shifts, like, you know, in elementary school, school is actually largely about education. When things get to grade seven or eight, it becomes predominantly about the social. It's like where we find our social groups, it's like where we figure out who we are. It's very hard, especially in schools where like, it kind of sounds like how you're describing your school a bit, but it's still like this at a lot of schools. It's also very gendered that like, it's still not very cool to be smart if you're like in this type of school or that type of school. It's not that cool to like math if you're, you know, wanna be this type, whatever, all the American teen movies

Sue Besant: 36:52

know, your

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:53

A teacher's pet, yeah, exactly. Like you, you, we do have to be aware.

Sue Besant: 36:57

And I do think because I was coming out as well. At the time and having another teacher that was coming out at the time, and they were friends, these, you know, Jackie and Jo, were good friends, that, that all fed into it because I also felt at the time, this group of friends, I'll never be able to be myself, because I'll never be able to come out in front of these people. I, we were still telling homophobic jokes and I'm telling them as well,'cause I wanna be part of this group, I'm saying things against, knowing, you know, I probably knew when I was 10 years old, you know, I like girls, this is different, but I'll keep that under wraps. Because I hear what my friends are saying. So that migration for me was pro, was definitely pushed on as well, I know I'm different and I won't be able to thrive with this group of people or ever be myself.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:44

Yeah, learning and like being seen as a person. Like you weren't just like a number to them, you weren't a student, you were this whole person. They recognize that like, okay, A, people have never showed up for her. B, she's on this coming out journey. Like she like, there's this going on. It sounds like Jo and Jackie really could see the whole picture of who you were and what the situation was you were in, and kind of target a bunch of those different things instead of just putting the paper down on the table. Right. And as humans, we all want to be seen and understood and valued. Right? So like, just letting a student know that you care about them as a person can be a huge game changer and you've really highlighted that. But we have not told as we're gonna need to wrap up soon, and still we have not told anyone that after your studio stuff, you moved to Indonesia and like took over sound engineering. Because I think people need to know what, like going from bunking, bunking off, sorry. I'm obsessed with getting this right. From bunking off in the bullocks, from bunking off to bougie bitch in Bali.

Sue Besant: 38:48

So I, uh, in, initially I moved over to Brunei, I worked for the Royal Family of Brunei

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:54

The Royal family guys,

Sue Besant: 38:56

we were taking care of concert venues for the royal family

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:00

Oh my fucking God.

Sue Besant: 39:01

Of the royal family. We were in the palaces.

Vanessa Vakharia: 39:03

Shut up.

Sue Besant: 39:05

No word of a lie. Yeah. So I did that for two years, and then I just, I, I was homesick for the first six months and then I just loved this part of the world. Didn't wanna go home. I heard about a job in, in Bali. A friend put me onto a job in Hard Rock Hotel Bali. They were just opening, they needed someone to head up audio visual. They had all this state of the art equipment and no one to run it. Went for an interview, got that job, was there for another two years, and then set up my own company in Bali, I ran for about 20 years. Renting equipment for events and sound and lighting and video equipment, and then just started really doing consultancy work myself throughout Southeast Asia for sound installations, for events, festivals, show directing, and it just, Bali was right place, right time where I'm meant to be. Because here, anything you could think of doing, you can do. Everyone around you is positive. And I love London and I had lots of opportunity there, but not like being in this part of the world where everyone around me was an entrepreneur. Everyone around me was like, yeah, you can think it, you can do it. And this is where I really flourished.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:14

Here's the crazy thing you just said that I don't even know if you realize what a full circle moment this is, you were like, it just suited me so much more here where people are like, if you can think it, you can do it. Anything's possible. And the the, craziest thing is when we go back to your math journey, what sparked in you that moment when you realized you could do math, this thing you've always been told you can't do, you started being like, oh my God, if I can do that, I can do anything. And now you literally have ended up in a place where that is the ethos.

Sue Besant: 40:43

Very

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:44

like that? Do you like that? I thought that was okay. I have, I have to ask one more question before I like, do my wrap up. Be honest. Okay. Like, be honest. Do you,

Sue Besant: 40:54

honest.

Vanessa Vakharia: 40:55

I, I actually have spent enough time with you that I think I know the answer. So if you lie to me. Um, do you think, do you think you like math now?

Sue Besant: 41:04

Okay, what is what? What does that even mean? Does that mean what I remember when I was 14 years old? Or does that mean what math could be? I like, I like solving problems. Can I say that?

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:17

She's beating me at my own fucking game.

Sue Besant: 41:19

I still don't like hypotenuse and the square root of, I still don't like any of that stuff, but I do like problem solving. It's a part of everything I am today. Maths is a part of everything I am today. That's as honest an answer as I can give.

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:34

It's so honest. And, you know, be I, I actually thought you were gonna say no, only because anytime I'm around you and math comes up, you're always like, Ugh, math, like, you guys do this.

Sue Besant: 41:44

I only say that'cause sometimes it's a simple thing and I'm like, there's an easier way of figuring that out.'cause I think I know everything. If I'm around maths people, I love a challenge and I'm devil's advocate and I'm still a pain in the ass. So I'm just

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:57

True

Sue Besant: 41:57

see if

Vanessa Vakharia: 41:58

can confirm.

Sue Besant: 41:59

So there you go. We're using it all the time every day.

Vanessa Vakharia: 42:02

I love you. You're, you're such a sweetie, but also pain in the ass. It's so confusing. But, and, and the thing, the thing is, I just wanna say one quick thing, which is that, you know, even if your answer was no, which it was, david is doing, he literally did that, exactly that! He's got his head buried in a pillow.'Cause you did exactly what he was doing. Exactly

Sue Besant: 42:22

I know the wrap up move.

Vanessa Vakharia: 42:23

We are gonna do, we're gonna wrap up. I've got two final questions I have to ask, and you have 30 seconds to respond to each. Number one, if you could change one thing about the way math was taught in schools, what would it be?

Sue Besant: 42:35

To be more creative.

Vanessa Vakharia: 42:37

Such a good answer. That took two seconds. That was incredible. Question number two. Someone listens to this podcast. They're like, yeah, I get what she's saying. Like, I guess, but it, that just couldn't happen to me. Like, you know, like I'm just not a math person. What would you say?

Sue Besant: 42:52

Well, I'd say I'm the proof, right? It couldn't have been more of a turnaround. absolutely the proof and you know, everything that Jo Boaler teaches, of course I've watched her career and her, you know, the books and everything she's done, it's all just makes total, total sense to me. And if you just have a look at that, what that research shows, shows everything about, it's just, just being creative, teaching it a different way, having a bit of energy about it, getting off the paper so everyone can learn. If I can do it, anyone can do it. That I can say.

Vanessa Vakharia: 43:29

Um, and actually Jo Boaler does talk about Sue in her, second latest book, Mathish. There's actually a whole section about you. Oh my God, the math legend lives on. I this. Aren't you glad you said yes to this?

Sue Besant: 43:43

on this podcast and I'm honored to like, even, this is like, I tell people I'm going to be on this podcast, and they're like, which one they think is gonna be to do with music or something else, and they say, it's The Math Guru. And they're like, what? It's like I'm honored to be here. The, the thought, the 13-year-old me would be here now, and really, I feel, yeah, very, very proud and very honored and thank you for having me on.

Vanessa Vakharia: 44:06

Ugh. It's honestly, I'm so glad we finally convinced you,'cause I, this is such an inspiring story. I want everyone listening to know that if Sue could do it, you can too. You've gotta find your person, you've gotta find your way. But there are people out there, and you know what? If no one has told you what Jo told Sue, Sue and I believe in you. We believe in you. Whoever's listening, we believe in you for sure. We know you can do it. We know you can build a better relationship with math. We know you're able to do it, so we believe in you. Thank you for being here. This was so great.

Sue Besant: 44:35

Thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia: 44:38

I know we say all the time that all it takes is one teacher, like one person who believes in you to change your entire life, but Sue is living proof and a message for all of you listening that you must never underestimate the impact you're making by simply believing in someone. Sue and Jo are lucky to still be connected and to be able to share how much of an impact they had on one another. But the truth is most people wander the earth like never knowing the difference they make in someone's life because no one ever tells them. And that's why I want you to share this episode with one person who impacted you, but who might not know it. Send it to them right now and say, Hey, thank you. You were my Jo Boaler. I would not be who I am today without you. Life's honestly too short to not let people know that they matter. And you know what I wanna know too, like, who was your Jo Boaler? Text the podcast by hitting the link in your podcast app. DM me on Instagram@themathguru, or email me at vanessa@themathguru.ca. Math Therapy is produced by David Kochberg. The music you're hearing right now is by our band, Goodnight Sunrise. And I am your host, Vanessa Vakharia. Thank you so much for being here and for believing in someone who really needs it. And guess what? I believe in you and your ability to change, to grow, and to make a positive impact in this world. You matter, and I believe in you.

Sue Besant: 45:59

Everyone around me was like yeah, you can think it, you can do it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:02

That might be the episode title. If you can think it, you can do it. Please write that down.

Sue Besant: 46:07

I think that's in a song as well. trying to

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:09

who? Who.

Sue Besant: 46:10

anyway, I'll think

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:11

What, the fucking Beatles. That was just such a

Sue Besant: 46:14

seriously saying the fucking beat, don't you? Down the

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:16

look. I can't get into it right now with the Beatles. It's not that I don't like. I appreciate them. I think they've done great things for music. I'm just not putting on the beat. I just, I just, here's the thing. Here's the thing.

Sue Besant: 46:28

They're okay. They did a

Vanessa Vakharia: 46:30

They're fine. Not my cup of tea.