Christopher Havens: 0:02

I am pretty big into justice and self rehabilitation. And if mathematics could change me like that, then I wanted other people to be able to experience it. There are more inmates that are serious about this idea of justice and self rehabilitation through this concept of, different type of productivity in prison. It's my debt, it's part of my debt, I gotta keep doing it for the rest of my life because the debt does is not go away. This work doesn't stop when I get out of prison, and it's just going to be one of those things that it's finally paid when my last breath is spent. So I'll be doing this nonstop.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:42

Hey guys, it's Vanessa and welcome back to Math Therapy. I wanna give you a bit of background for today's episode because it's a story that encompasses basically every aspect of what I've observed and learned in math education over my career. Back in 2021, I interviewed a man named Christopher Havens, and it remains one of the most memorable episodes we've ever done. It was a technical challenge because he spoke to us from prison where he was 12 years into serving a 25 year sentence for murder, but it was also intellectually and emotionally eye-opening. It really challenged me to think deeply about the prison system and the idea of rehabilitation. Long story short is that years into his sentence, Christopher discovered math when it was literally slipped under his door in solitary confinement, and it gave him a purpose and joy in life he'd never experienced before. Like so much so that he decided to dedicate his literal entire life to it, setting the foundation for his rehabilitation, which led him to become a research mathematician and published author, from prison. He then started the Prison Mathematics Project, through which I ended up visiting a Michigan Corrections facility in 2023 with the Math Therapy team like Sabina and David, and we participated in a Pi day event. This was also covered in an episode in the podcast, which we'll link to in the show notes. You should listen to it, it is an incredible story. I've talked about Christopher and the Prison Math Project before, but the reason I was motivated to talk about his story again today is that Christopher's Petition for Clemency was recently denied by his state governor, despite a unanimous vote for commutation of his sentence by the Washington State Clemency and Pardons Board. Now, I wanna make it clear that I am not an expert on the prison system or rehabilitation. But through Christopher's story, I ended up learning many similar stories of incarcerated individuals finding purpose and hope through math. And I've gotten to know some of the people who helped the Prison Math Project from outside the prison system and seen their passion for using math as a tool for rehabilitation. We were even able to get this podcast, Math Therapy, every season, every episode into the prison library system. And I've gotten emails and letters from inmates saying how they relate to the guests, and they found hope in our conversations and that that has helped them find hope in themselves. And I wanna be truly transparent and honest. I have the same prejudices and confusions and concerns, as many of you probably do, but my mind has really been opened about the topic as well. So I'm not gonna tell you how to think or what to do, like that's not what I'm here for. I just wanna share some of the questions I've thought about over the years. For example, what does rehabilitation actually mean? And does incarceration truly give inmates that opportunity? In math education, we talk about growth mindset and neuroplasticity. Why can we envision that for students, but not for inmates who have repented and rehabilitated? If someone has done something horrible, how do we evaluate if they've sufficiently repented? Like should it be driven by clinical assessment and expert recommendation alone? Or should society's collective fears or my own fears or politics factor in? Are there some things that can never be forgiven, should a person's upbringing or life circumstances be considered when assessing their crime in the first place? Incarceration takes a massive financial and emotional toll on society for everyone involved. Like isn't it in everyone's interest to do everything we can to heal people and not give up on them just by locking them up forever? Those are just some of the things that literally keep me up at night. Now again, I work in math education, not corrections, but I can tell you one thing I know with a hundred percent certainty. There is a common thread between a lot of these inmate stories and the stories I have heard from students and adults over the years. Educational systems have the power to inspire kids to pursue a life where they believe anything is possible and they can overcome any challenge. But systems also have the power to neglect, overlook, or simply give up on students, telling them loud and clear that they have no value to society if they're not deemed intelligent enough. And time and time again, this all starts in math class. And I wanna make it very clear that I'm not comparing the classroom to prison, but systems in all corners of our world have the power to either empower or oppress. Okay. I know that was a lot, but I really needed to give you some context for why I decided to reshare my conversation with Christopher today. And I also wanted to share how my thought process has developed ever since this initial interview. And if you connect with the story and you want to read more, the show notes have links to his statement about the current developments as well as information about the Prison Mathematics Project and ways to get involved as a mentor or volunteer if you're interested. And I know I say this every episode, but I really wanna hear from you this time. I know it's a controversial topic, but you know me, I believe we can only progress as a society if we actually talk about these things. So you can text the podcast, you can email me or DM me on Instagram, and please consider sharing this episode with someone you think might find it as eye-opening as I did. And now without further ado, here is my conversation with Christopher Havens.

Operator: 5:45

You have a prepaid call. This call is from:

Christopher Havens: 5:48

Christopher

Operator: 5:50

An inmate at Monroe Correctional Complex. This call will be recorded and monitored. To accept this call, press five now. Thank you.

Christopher Havens: 6:00

Hey, how, how, what? How is everybody?

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:05

We're doing good. How are you doing over there?

Christopher Havens: 6:09

Oh, I'm doing pretty good. A little bit nervous, but I am doing well.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:12

Well, I think we're both equally nervous probably because this is like, for sure, the first time I've ever interviewed someone in jail. So yeah, we're, I'm nervous too. Okay, good. I'm glad. That was funny. I'm like, is that funny or awkward? I don't even know. Okay, so let's just get right into it. I wanna know how you discovered math.

Christopher Havens: 6:32

Ah, that's kind of an interesting story. I. I started studying math and while I was in solitary confinement and I just got hooked on it, at first I was in solitary and I was doing Sudoku puzzles to pass my time and then some working out, and it got so monotonous and so, you know, every day was the same. Every I could pick patterns out of the movements of everybody. And one of those patterns was this older gentleman walking by throwing envelopes under people's doors. And after a couple weeks, I, I was curious because that's the only thing there was to be curious about. And I, I asked him what was in the envelopes and one, and the next day he shot one under my door and it just happened to be full of math homework, just basic algebra and trades math. But in that segregation, I just kind of fell into this like, deep study of it just, it consumed my time in a much. More meaningful way than any of those puzzles did. And I just kind of became addicted and I studied and I studied and I was up so late, like just doing nothing but that. And uh, you know, my dreams and everything was affected by it. And after several months, my thinking and my, my values began to change and it was really strange because I noticed it happening while it was happening. And I remember one time that I was standing there in my cell looking at the concrete on the wall, and I'm just kind of standing there staring off into space at this wall. And I was like, you know, I have 25 years I could totally become a wizard. And so I decided to start studying mathematics for the rest of my time, and I made this goal that I would learn cryptography and that I would start researching math. And I tried to, um, set a goal of publishing math while I was in prison, and it happened within a few years, so it was really, uh, amazing, just the whole process. But that was kind of the start of my journey.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:35

That is so crazy. So like, uh, so first I just wanna touch on the fact that what I. Don't know. I mean, whatever word you would use, the way you're describing it to me sounds like a real like spiritual experience, which most people don't think of when they think of math. You know, people think of math as so cold and so logical, but the way you're explaining it is so beautiful. And like to say that math started transforming. You like as a person and your perspectives is, is one of the most beautiful things I've ever heard with regards to someone learning math. So I definitely want to talk about that more. But first I've gotta ask you like, were you always interested in math? Like, it's so crazy for me to think that you just got this manila envelope of algebra and you weren't like, Ugh, fuck this. Like, did you like math before? Like, what was your relationship with it before this point?

Christopher Havens: 9:23

I didn't have a relationship with it before this point. My mother says that I was really good at it when I was in school, but. I, most of my adolescent years are really fuzzy to me because I was really big into drug abuse. And so there's a lot of parts of my life that I just can't really recall properly, and that's just one of'em my whole school years. Um, I don't remember being into math like she describes, um, just specifically because I don't remember those little details. But it is, it is a spiritual thing for me in a sense that it's kind of opened my eyes to, um, joy and beauty and everything I do because it's all done through this lens of mathematics and it's not this clinical thing for me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:12

Yeah. Well, because I mean, I remember I actually failed math twice when I was in high school, and I was always like told I wasn't the type of person who'd be good at math. And I remember when I finally had it shown to me in a way that I, I really like understood. It became so meditative for me because just like. Yeah, like something about like doing the prob, like especially when you have like a crazy algebra problem and it takes up the whole page and then the answer's like zero or something, and you're like, holy fuck.

Christopher Havens: 10:38

All that for nothing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:41

Exactly, but it feels so cool and it's so clean, and it is like you're in, you're in a different mind frame when you're working through a problem or trying to solve a problem and thinking mathematically. So I think that's really, really cool. And for, for that reason, I also became a teacher, right? I was like, I wanna show other people that they can feel this way while doing math, but more than that, that they can feel a certain way about themselves. So being a high school dropout yourself and you know. Uh, never feeling like you had a relationship with math and obviously having so much go on in your life when you started finding math as like this spiritual thing, did it change at all? Like, I, I, I really don't know much about what your outlook was on yourself or on the fact that you were in prison for 25 more years. Like, did it change the way you saw yourself as like a human in this world or like.

Christopher Havens: 11:29

Yeah, it definitely did. That's one of the reasons why I love math so much. Because if anybody's seen my mugshots, they're looking at a totally different person. And it's kind of a scary site. When I first started doing math in the hole and as I watched it, kind of transforming my thoughts and my behaviors, that power right there, to change somebody that I was in that mugshot, that's amazing. And I just, you know. I would probably consider myself to have been one of the lowest creatures on this planet at one point of time. I, there was nothing good about anything I did. There was no goals or ambitions, and I didn't contribute to society at all. I, I don't know, I feel like I'm failing at answering your question. I just got sidetracked, but.

Vanessa Vakharia: 12:20

No, it's, I think you did answer my question and I think it's so beautiful and it leads right into, you know what I really, really can't wait for you to tell me more about, which is you have started the Prison mathematics project, right? So you've come from this place where like you've used what's happened to you. You found math and saw how it transformed you, and now you were like. Holy shit. I am going to use this, this power to help transform other people. Not that I don't wanna put words in your mouth. I'm like rewriting your whole

Christopher Havens: 12:46

No, No, that's exactly it. Because there was this, that transformative process I was telling you about and the fact that it could change somebody with such contrast, uh, like the, the contrast from, you know, then to now is so, so huge. And while I was going through it, it was such a beautiful experience and it like. Totally filled my life with this joy that I've never experienced. And I guess that the only way I can compare this is how other people talk about God. And I'm not talking about God, I'm talking about mathematics. And I wanted, I wanted to share that with people because I am pretty big into the idea of justice and self rehabilitation. And if mathematics could change me like that, then I wanted other people to be able to experience it. So we sought to replicate these conditions that I was given. And that is the Prison Mathematics Project. When I first met my, mentor in the math community, Luella, it was like I had, I was studying in this big empty place where I didn't have any feedback because I didn't have a teacher and it was kind of alone, even though I loved doing what I did. But when I had that, that element of the community, it changed the game considerably, and we want to provide that. Everybody with that element in the community without having to wait all those years to find it. Like if we can nurse them into this passive desistance when they're in a mine state that's already receptive, I think that there's a big, huge potential for change right there. And that's kind of the heart of it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:31

That speaks so greatly to the need for a mentor or for role models or for just that connection. And actually that's part of the reason this podcast exists. Because the truth is learning can often be very isolating. So not only is it isolating at the best of times, like here you are, you want to learn math and you're feeling isolated. But especially for students who already feel, um, like they don't belong in the mathematical community, like maybe you did when you were younger or like I did, or many of you know, the people listening to this podcast just feel ostracized from it. It's already so isolating. Just feeling that way, that without a mentor or a program like yours or someone to reach out to, it can be impossible to ever bridge that divide. Oh my God. Math pun. Um, but so that could be, it can be, IM impossible to do that. So what you're doing is so cool. And actually, I, I wanna like. Fact check, but I read somewhere that you, you know, during the beginning of your studies, you had actually reached out to a math journal to ask for some help because of what you said. The fact that you were kind of studying alone and had no one to ask. Can you tell me what happened there?

Christopher Havens: 15:35

Yeah, I was just, uh, on the end of my stay in the hole or what you guys know as isolation and. I was studying number theory, but you know, with like a bull in the China shop and I reached out to this journal, the analysis of mathematics, and I asked him for a little bit of help and I told him my situation and they wrote back. Saying that they felt that their journal was a little bit, was probably gonna be a little bit over my head, but then in turn, they thought that they would pass my information along to one of their colleagues. And several months later I got a letter from Luella in Italy, who's a great friend of mine to this day, and she was my mentor for many years. And actually not many people know this, but it was her and I that kind of sat there. Uh, after some, so many books were rejected. Coming into the institution, we just brainstormed and had this idea of the Prison mathematics project, and it didn't have a name back then, but we were gonna, I was, you know, that was kind of the plan is to come to this new institution. When I changed prisons and start this math,

Operator: 16:43

you have 60 seconds remaining.

Christopher Havens: 16:46

Where we can get these books, and that's kind of how the program got started in the first place. But we're about to get cut off, so let me call you back.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:55

Because then you're gonna tell us all about how the program works.

Christopher Havens: 16:59

Okay, cool.

Operator: 17:03

To accept this call, press five now to decline this. Thank you.

Christopher Havens: 17:08

Hey, I'm back.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:09

Oh my God. We are back everyone. Okay. Tell me about the Prison Mathematics Project. Like, you know, I'm a prisoner who wants to learn math. What happens?

Christopher Havens: 17:18

Sure. You would write into our organization, we have a PO box, and from there we have an electronic meal service that scans it and sends it into our website to our volunteers. So the volunteer that's working with that participant inmate, will then respond to them electronically, so it's COVID safe, but it also allows that link and it also allows you to insert anything you want in those responses. And they're kind of mimicking the idea of those math packs that I was getting while we were in, while I was in the hole. Except this has the added, added element of, uh, this person acting as your mentor and responding to you about just anything. Uh, if you need. Somebody to talk to as a mentor if you need, if you wanna learn a little bit of history on a subject or whatever. That's kind of the job. It's just to teach them the essence of mathematics, to bring them into this community and to kind of show them that a different lifestyle exists where they can do something that they love.

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:22

Okay. Wow, wow, wow. All right. So I, I mean, maybe it's just me, but like, did this like take off or were people like, what the fuck dude? Like, I don't wanna learn math. Like how did you start convincing people in prison that this was a good idea? I just like. I, the, the, the classic stereotype would have me believe that people were like, Chris, no.

Christopher Havens: 18:42

Uh, there was a few of the admin that were like, well, how many people are actually gonna want something like that because it's math? And I'm like, there was actually a bunch of people. It was pretty neat, but we don't have it inside the prison anymore because of COVID. But, uh, we were doing events and hundreds of people were showing up at these events and mathematicians from all over the world were flying in and it was so amazing. Uh.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:08

That is cra. This is wild.

Christopher Havens: 19:10

Yeah, it was pretty cool. So the idea is that we can't have lectures, right? We don't have anybody to give us lectures. So bring the lectures into the prison by holding an event and inviting a bunch of professors to talk to us and give us lectures. That was the whole thing, and it turned out so amazing.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:30

It's just so cool. Like, and I mentioned this before, but I wasn't even joking, you know, like I'm all about breaking stereotypes about what it means to be a math person. And I always think about that. Like, you know, I think about myself. I'm always the type of person. Who gets pegged as not being the type of person I'm using air quotes, who's good at math, but I've never really delved into the prison stereotype, which, I mean, I just said myself like, it's hard to imagine that a bunch of prisoners would want to do math, and here you are being like, well, actually you're totally wrong. So I actually wanna take a pause and talk about that. I don't know, maybe I'm just making this up, but I wonder if there is that like belief or false stereotype that. Maybe they just wouldn't be interested, whereas you're kind of proving the opposite. That actually if given the opportunity, it is something that people are interested in.

Christopher Havens: 20:17

Well, that's kind of true. Some of the, a lot of the people are not interested because there is a lot of people who play the prison game. But a lot of people are seeing the things that are happening because of what I do. And there are a good amount of people that are kind of following suit, which is really inspirational for me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:36

Wait, what's the, what's the prison game?

Christopher Havens: 20:38

The prison game is kind of what everybody does when, uh, by default when they come to prison or it's this politics that exists inside the prison that like exists on a bed of fallacies, the convict code or whatever. And you have a lot of people that play that game. Uh, they come to prison because. They screwed up and then all they know of prison is what they've heard or see on the TV or in the movies. And so they play that part as a defense mechanism and becomes that reality for a while until they learn that it doesn't have to be. It's very real, but it's also something that can be changed externally from a sociological perspective. It's what we, it's what we perceive the prisoner to be. That kind of drives that idea.

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:26

I totally, I think what's, what's so cool, and maybe you don't even realize this, but I think by doing a program like this and even like this interview and the journals you've been in, and the interviews you've been doing, I think you're actually doing a lot more than you think. Like you're not just changing. What happens in prison on a micro level, you know, with the people who are choosing to do math, but I think you're showing the world that there is way more to prisoners than the the stereotypical prison game. Yeah. Like I hadn't even thought about this aspect of it, that really your goal isn't just to change what's happening in the prison, but to change what's happening outside so that pe when people get inside. They are motivated to act differently and to actually rehabilitate themselves. And I think that's so fucking cool. do you personally have like a, an anecdote or like a situation you can think of where your program has helped someone kind of rehabilitate or, or change their perception of self

Christopher Havens: 22:19

Right off the top of my head, there was this event that we had in 2017 for Pi Day and.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:26

Pie day? Yes. Okay.

Christopher Havens: 22:28

There was an article. Yeah, we, well, I, I throw some events on Pie Day because it's one of my holidays. And so, uh, we had this really cool event with some really cool mathematicians and it got written about in a Math Horizons magazine and some inmate. From Michigan heard about this and wrote in and was just telling him about how he was inspired and he wanted to get involved and start one of his own and, and he was studying math and his story was almost identical to mine and it was really neat. Uh, he didn't have that little element of community and we tried to reach out to him, but his institution has such strict standards with mail that none of us were able to get ahold of him. Like he didn't even know we were trying to get ahold of him. And so for many years, like after a year, we just kind of stopped trying because there was nothing happening. We didn't know if he got in trouble or what. But many years later, like just recently, right after we launched the Prison Mathematics project, I had somebody try to reach out to the guy and we found him and we invited him as a member of the team, as as a participant. And we paired him up with some mentors. And when we spoke to him, his relief that he would have this person in the community, some other mathematician to talk to about his math, like he was so. Uh, it was just so amazing to experience this whole curtain being like, lifted from him to where like, now I have help. After all these years, I finally have help, you know? And, and it was like the feeling that I got when Luella came into the picture and being able to help somebody with that. It, it felt so good to be able to do that. And just to realize that we're doing that with so many people, it's hard to comprehend.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:18

Yeah, it's so beautiful and it's so crazy'cause every time you say something like, you know, almost everything you've said, I can't help but think to myself, you know, of course we're talking about a specific situation and a specific, you know, population, but your story rings true for everyone. There are so many. People and students and and marginalized populations who often get thrown off the path of math because they don't have that support, they don't have that connection, they don't have anyone that believes in them, and they do go down very different paths. And I always think to myself as math teachers. We have this opportunity, like we have this opportunity to get kids at a very young age, to to show them that they're good at something, that they're capable of something, and that they're powerful at something. And we often miss that opportunity by dismissing kids as not being the right type of kid or that, you know, the right type of person who yeah, like,

Christopher Havens: 25:10

I think about that. I think about that and I'm, what would've caught me when I was a kid. You know, I'm, I always try to think of something that would've changed my trajectory. And I think that, one of the things is, you know, they don't really teach us some of these very easy ends of the advanced topics that are so beautiful. Like we are fed this basic curriculum, the standard curriculum until we reach college. But what if they knew that there was something. Badass to look forward to. Like what if you taught them modular arithmetic and then just showed them how you could apply it to something like barcodes, which is pretty easy to understand if you break it down the right way. And like there's all these topics that move into the advance that are, are accessible at a really, really basic level.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:02

Yeah, and like I think it goes beyond even like learning, you know, a specific topic. It goes into a feeling like there's something beautiful out there in the world. Like not to be too cheesy, but by showing them something like that, you're kind of showing them. A little taste of the fact that there's something bigger than them out there that they can learn about. And that, you know, there's this air of mystery and magic and like that alone can be motivating for a kid. And then B, showing kids that they're capable. So being like literally looking a kid in the eye and being like, I believe in you. You can understand this, you can do this. Like that's really empowering. And that does not happen to many kids, right? Like I always say. Math is usually one of the first things that many kids are taught that they cannot do. Right? Like they get labeled right away. Oh, you're not the type of person who can do math, and right away when you're like six fucking years old, you're like, there's something on this planet I can't do. And that feels shitty, right? Like,

Christopher Havens: 26:59

It is, and now as a victim of like intellectual bullies and like this elitism in our educational system, and it does kind of. It. It's really discouraging, and if you pair that with a teacher that doesn't match the learning style of a student, then, then they're lost. They're completely in a different realm, and it turns into an ugly subject because of the external factors around them and not the subject itself. Like, what if we told them that? What if we catered to more than one learning style? Say, okay, well, uh, this is how you do that and here's another way you could try that. And, you know, anybody have any suggestions on something else? And it can turn into a game and then it can turn into something fun. And the guy that didn't understand the first two ways or the first wave might understand the other end.

Vanessa Vakharia: 27:48

Well, I love that. And I think that helps every kid feel included and as though they have something to bring into the world, right? Like you, you, you think, wow, there is something unique about me that I have to share with this world. And maybe it's a new perspective or a new way of solving a problem. And that's where so many people miss the mark with math as we teach kids, no, if you don't do it this way, you're not allowed to be in the club. And they're like, oh, well that fucking sucks. Right. And that's so discouraging. Okay, so I wanted to ask, I read somewhere that you had said, um, something really, really beautiful and I kind of wanted to just like pry a little. You had said something about how incarceration is not a strong enough factor to take the beauty from a mathematical life. How do you feel right now, like knowing you have 12 years left and how is math kind of something that's there for you during that?

Christopher Havens: 28:36

I just plan on, I'm walking the same path and I'm gonna be doing the exact same thing, except with a little bit less technology and friends, you know? Uh, I definitely think that it's my responsibility to, try to help people towards this path of assistance and. I also think it's my responsibility to help anybody who's, uh, genuine about their learning. And so while I'm down, uh, I have no problem doing that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:06

What an amazing outlook. Yeah. Are there ways that listeners can help? Like do you guys need resources? Do you need more volunteers? Like what are the kinds of things that listeners can do if they wanna help you out and like help you expand the program?

Christopher Havens: 29:20

Absolutely. Yes, we definitely need resources. Yes, we definitely need volunteers. We're always looking for volunteers because we have more and more inmates looking for mentors, but we also need volunteers who are not willing to be mentors, and we need any, we're we're, we're open to suggestions for improvements. So anybody who would be interested in helping can visit our website, prison map project.org.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:42

Okay, perfect. And okay, I have the weirdest question before I ask you, like our final two questions are, is there like the type of culture. In, in your prison where people make fun of you for being smart, like is that a thing?

Christopher Havens: 29:55

Uh, almost. Prison for me, it's kind of like my neighborhood is the ghetto and when I come outta my room, it's like walking into a sports bar where like it's always Super Bowl Sunday. It's loud and, and it's hard to focus, but that's just kind of like the way these places work. It's just not really a place that fosters education in the way you would studying at this level. But.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:26

That, like, I don't know, maybe I'm biased, but I feel like education is like one of the most important things and like that's something we need to be focusing on.

Christopher Havens: 30:35

I definitely agree and right the way it's set up right now, even with the administrative side, uh, it's to where people who are short, uh, on time get education on priority as opposed to people who have long sentences. And I think that it's a little bit backwards because the people who are in here and serving long periods of time. Uh, if they're denied education and they then hit the card table for the next 20 years because they're not allowed to enter into these educational programs, well, isn't that gonna condition them into this criminal element more so, and then when they get short on their time, then all of a sudden, you know, offered them this chance of redemption that they should have been offered so many years ago. Well, these people are usually the people who influence the younger generation the most that come in here. And so that's an important demographic inside the prisons to hit. Just it, it, it shouldn't be limited to anybody. It should be available for everybody.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:37

Well, thank you for saying that. Um, like explaining that so clearly, because I'm sure like. I did not know any of this, so I'm sure many other people listening didn't know any of this either. So coming literally straight from you, I feel is so, so powerful. It's not coming from like some whack politician, like it's coming from someone literally on the inside who has rehabilitated with education and who's trying to do that for others. Like, I can't, you know, I can't give you enough, like praise or you know, just. Admiration for what you're doing. I think this is so fucking dope and I'm pumped to be able to help spread the message and I'm excited to hear what everyone thinks. And I ha we have to wrap up with the final two questions'cause I could talk to you forever, but we're just gonna get cut off again. Um, okay. But Christopher, before I ask you the final two questions, is there anything we haven't talked about that you wanted to make sure we mentioned?

Christopher Havens: 32:29

I just wanna mention that this, that there are more inmates that are serious about this idea of justice and self rehabilitation through this concept of, uh, different type of productivity in prison and you can actually read what they have to say@humanme.org, uh, there is a whole log full of people who, who are serious about their, uh, about rehabilitation and a different perspective for you to take on inmates. That's the place to go.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:03

That's amazing. We'll put all of these links on our show notes page for sure. And let me ask you the two questions I ask everyone. So the first question is, what would you say to someone who doesn't think they're a math person?

Christopher Havens: 33:16

Oh, well, I would say that you have been taught by the wrong person. And I apologize for any mistakes that your teachers or your students inflicted upon you in the past, but there are beauties that you cannot imagine in mathematics, and they're not available to the people who taught you before. And so you'll have to forgive them. Give another person a chance.

Vanessa Vakharia: 33:41

That is such a kind, comp, compassionate answer. Okay, and finally, my final, final question is, what is one thing you wish you could change about the way math is taught in schools?

Christopher Havens: 33:51

I would just want our teachers to realize that there are several learning styles and not to teach just one. And I think that our books need to reflect that as well.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:01

Our books are disgusting. I.

Christopher Havens: 34:03

Also, I, I want our students to start seeing these beautiful fruits of mathematics and the options that are gonna be available for the future. Give them something to look forward to.

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:13

I love that. K, can I actually ask you a question I didn't ask before, but I'm curious, was there, was there like a point in your life where you felt like things diverged, like a gap at some point in your life where you were like that set you on the quote unquote wrong path, or was it just kind of like a series of events?

Christopher Havens: 34:31

Yeah, I actually was one of those people that fell into the hole, uh, trying to impress everybody. Um, for my whole life I was always trying to be one of the cool kids and I was never one of them. Uh, I was always kind of awkward and I would do anything to impress the cool kids. And I found myself, uh, having the hots for a beautiful girl and she was into drugs and I smoked some weed with her. And from there I did some pills and they just kind of, cascaded because that that little community of drug users accepted me. And so I started doing more drugs and different drugs and that whole idea of trying to impress somebody, uh, trying to be this, I this cool, whatever is so false, man. And the moment I finally let that go, and I know when it was, it was when I was 31 years old. The moment I finally let that go, I finally seen that there is like beauty and joy in life that we missed out on.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:40

Well, for what it's worth, I think you're pretty fucking cool.

Christopher Havens: 35:44

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:47

You're definitely one of the coolest people I've personally spoken to, and I know for sure that everyone listening to this is going to think that, and it's just such a fucking full circle moment because obviously totally different context. But the idea of, I don't know if you know, you definitely don't know this, but part of my thesis research so many years ago was literally called Imagining a World where Paris Hilton loves math. And it was about the idea that coolness is what prevents many kids from doing math. Because like obviously this is different than your story, but it's a crazy intersection between our paths in a way, because my whole research was about what is the idea of being cool? How does it manifest itself in media and how does it prevent kids from wanting to try to be smart? So like how fucked is that, that we just found that out at the end of this convo?

Christopher Havens: 36:37

Can you email that to me? I want to read that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 36:39

Yeah, I'll email you like the 25 page version and then the a hundred page version. I mean, you have time, so maybe you want, maybe you want the longer version, but you'll see there's, there's a whole chapter on the idea of being cool, and it's so fucking interesting because my thesis is specifically on, it's about femininity. So it's like very focused on girls, but you could write a whole thesis on masculinity and the ideas of being cool as a a guy and how that might've prevent guys from going into math or being intelligent. Like it's pretty crazy actually. Oh my god. I'm actually kind of freaking out that you just brought this up right now. Yeah. Okay. Well I'll send it to you for sure. Thank you for sharing so much, um, today. Like so much of this is such personal stuff and I really, really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me today.

Christopher Havens: 37:27

I will take time to talk to you anytime you want.

Vanessa Vakharia: 37:29

Yeah, you just said so much cool stuff and I really, really am so excited for everything you're doing and I hope you like know. I mean, I, I know you know, but I hope you like really know how much of a difference you're making. Like you are already changing the lives of so many people.

Christopher Havens: 37:42

Well, it's my, it, this is gonna sound strange, but it's my response, it's kind of my, it's my debt, it's part of my debt, and, um, I gotta keep doing it for the rest of my life because the debt does is not go away. It's just one of those things that I realized a long time ago that this work doesn't stop when I get out of prison. And it's just going to, you know, be one of those things that it's finally paid when my last breath is spent. So I'll be doing this nonstop.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:13

Christopher, it has been literally one of the highlights of my short career as a podcast host to interview you. Thanks for being a guest.

Christopher Havens: 38:21

Thank you. Likewise.

Vanessa Vakharia: 38:24

I mean, I'm kind of speechless, which as you can imagine is a first for me. I just can't get over that last line that teaching math is Christopher's debt to pay and it won't be paid until his last breath. I mean, wow. You know, guys, the premise of this entire podcast is discussing the harmful ways that societal pressures and stereotypes can totally derail a student's life, forcing them to conform and accept limitations that are just totally made up. And I was honestly shocked to learn that what led Christopher down the wrong path was simply the pressure to fit in and be cool. I can't stop thinking about all the students I've met over the years who feel that same pressure from the media and school system, but what gives me hope is that Christopher is also an incredible example of how stereotypes can be broken and how it's never too late in life to find a better path. Every single one of us has the power to change the status quo for ourselves and for the world around us. So don't be afraid to break your own stereotypes and don't shy away from challenging conversations. I have learned so much this season and have been so honored to talk to such a wide range of brilliant and passionate guests, and I hope they've inspired hope and wonder in you too. So whatever it is that you wanna be, go out there and be it because I believe in you and the world needs to see it. and remember to also follow me personally at the Math Guru on Instagram and Twitter. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by Sabina Wex and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme song is Waves by Goodnight Sunrise, which is my band. And guys, if you know someone who needs Math Therapy or needs to hear song. One else getting Math Therapy. Please share this podcast rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things make a huge difference. As you know, I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math, and I need your help. So spread the word and see you next time.