Alison Mello

Alison Mello 0:03

teachers wanna be seen and heard and valued. Like it just comes down to that. And they deserve that. They work really hard. Maybe I don't understand fractions, and all of a sudden there was this model in my new program that I've never seen before in my life and it triggers my math trauma to go right back to, I'm like the kid. I had a teacher tell me recently, she stayed late after our session and said, you just healed the third grade me's math trauma. You know how like custodians have a lot of keys on their key ring? That's how we are as teachers. We have all these keys and our job is to figure out how to unlock each student and they don't all unlock with the same key. And so you might not have found the way to unlock your brilliance yet. That's all.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:40

Hello. Hi, it's me, Vanessa, and welcome to your weekly hit of Math Therapy. Let me ask you a question. Have you ever been in a school or a meeting or even just a convo where you know something needs to change? Like you can feel it in the air, but no one is saying it out loud and everyone's just like continuing on as though everything is fine. And maybe you're sitting there thinking, okay, but if I say something, am I overstepping? Is this even my role? What if I don't have the answers? What if I make it worse? You know, we talk so much about how to teach math better, but we don't talk enough about the people who actually create the conditions for that change to happen in the first place. Leaders! And not just the, I have a title kind of leaders, but the kind who actively create environments for the people around them to feel safe enough to speak up or try something new. And today's guest is going to tell you exactly how we can develop more of those leaders and how you can become one yourself. Dr. Allison Mello is the expert when it comes to leadership and math education. She's the one you call when you're like, SOS, my school district is falling apart, what do I do? This badass B has 30 years in education with experience as a classroom teacher, instructional coach, curriculum director, district administrator, and math consultant. She even has her own math conference, guys. It's called Get Your Workshop On, and it's like a cool conference with a different theme every year, and actually I have to tell you this year's theme is Christmas in August, and I'm one of the keynotes, and there will be hot chocolate and gingerbread, and you can register right now and early bird pricing ends at the end of the month, so check the show notes for the link. Now, Allison and I talked about what it takes to be an effective leader, what it means if a leader has their own math anxiety, and the three things she believes every leader needs to know right now if there's any hope of changing math attitudes at the student and teacher level. So if you've ever thought, why isn't anything changing? Why are teachers still overwhelmed? Or why are the kids still anxious about math? And maybe why are my teachers still anxious about math, this episode is for you. And if any moments in this episode make you spit out your coffee and scream, "oh my God, exactly", then remember you can text the podcast by hitting the link in the show notes, and please share this episode with someone that needs to hear it. Okay, let's get started.

How to be a great leader

Vanessa Vakharia 2:53

Welcome to the podcast.

Alison Mello 2:55

Thanks for having me on the podcast. I'm so excited.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:57

There's so much I wanna talk to you about, but I think, because honestly, you have been such a great mentor to me, and I know a lot of your work is in leadership, I kind of wanna talk to you about that today. Because the top, you know, the leaders who are in charge of so much, that ethos and their perspective and their decisions trickle down to all of the educators that they influence and that we talk to every day.

Alison Mello 3:22

Absolutely, like nothing happens without them first creating the conditions for it to happen. So they are very important in the equation.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:30

Nice. Already starting strong with a math pun.

Alison Mello 3:33

Mathy, I know, it's so mathy!

Vanessa Vakharia 3:34

One of the things I believe that last time we talked, there were three things that came out of our conversation and I kind of wanna hone in on like your top three, like things that leaders need to know. And I also wanna say this guys, if you're listening to this and you're like, Ugh, I'm not a leader, this doesn't apply to me. Alison, the coolest thing about Alison is when she talks, she's speaking about her area of expertise which is education, but we are all leaders in some respect, in some aspect of life. So I feel like the coolest thing is that this is going to apply to yes, leaders in an educational setting, but leaders everywhere.

Alison Mello 4:07

If there are teachers listening and, and anyone else from any other walk of life, they are very affected by what leaders do and how leaders make decisions. And so whether that's in your office environment, if you're not in education, or if it's in your classroom environment, if you are in an education setting, we all know that the people who supervise us really affect our day-to-day. So I just wanna frame it like that way. Um, I have been in education for 30 years. This is my 30th year. And I was so happy in my little district for 15 years. And when I resigned, I really wanted to get back to this place of spreading joy for teachers and supporting math. And it was very noticeable to me almost immediately that some things and conditions were different than I had been used to in my district. So these are the three things that I've really just continued to come up again and again and again. So often leaders are really trying to promote change and so, in math education, often the fastest way to try to get things to change for the better is to adopt a new program. Does that like sound familiar? People talk a lot about HQIM or HQCM or whatever,

Vanessa Vakharia 5:17

Just for those listening, HQIM, I have learned means high quality instructional materials or high quality instructional curriculum.

Alison Mello 5:24

a high quality curricular materials. Yes, either or. Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:27

Okay. Amazing, amazing, amazing. So yes, this is a huge thing. I will even say as somebody in the, in the education space, the number one word I hear is curriculum, right? people are always talking about like this curriculum, that curriculum, program, program, program. So like, I actually love that you're bringing this up.

Alison Mello 5:47

Because at the end of the day, I feel like first of all, math programs are great. They give us like some coherence, some clarity, some consistency, but it's the teachers who actually have to deliver the program. And I don't think that we stop to consider what they are coming to the table with. Do they have their own experiences with math that weren't really positive? Like that's why I immediately thought of you. I'm like, oh my gosh, how many teachers have their own math trauma that has never really been discussed, addressed, unpacked, and then they're sitting in these like, PD sessions like afraid to show anybody that they don't know. And like no program is gonna fix that for them. All they're gonna do is follow a script. And I actually saw this quote recently that like a teacher started crying in front of her class because she was teaching something that she didn't understand, like that shouldn't happen.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:35

This is such a, like, okay, I was trying to think of an analogy and I was like, you know what, I, what came to me right away? Just because your husband told me to make tomato sauce last night and I did it. And I just would like everyone to know that I am, I don't wanna be pejorative or, and yes, growth mindset, but I don't identify as being like, a cook. Like I make stuff, but like I have very little knowledge of like kitchen things. So I remember your husband was like, okay, just make some sauce. And I was like, but like literally what do I do with the tomatoes? Like I don't know what to do. And I was thinking, like, handing someone a program is like someone handing someone a recipe who has no knowledge of what to do in the kitchen, maybe has some anxiety around like not knowing, maybe it's had some bad experiences because every time they followed a recipe, it hasn't turned out the way they wanted it to. There's this amazing Schitt's Creek episode, maybe you've seen where in this recipe it says "fold in the cheese",

Alison Mello 7:28

yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:29

of them are like, right, everyone's like, well fold the cheese. And they're like, but yeah, like you just fold it. Like, what does that mean? And it's like, the program is only as good as the training you get or the person holding it. Like it's, it's a recipe. But if you don't know what half the words on the recipe mean, or if you don't have the knowledge to, like, you're literally just following the words on it. Not thinking like about the fact that like it says something that might not make sense. You're gonna end up with sauce that tastes like shit. Which I didn't, by the way. Actually, my sauce was amazing

Alison Mello 8:00

You killed it. You killed it. Okay. I had no idea you were gonna gimme a, a recipe analogy, but can I just say, when I am working with districts, I'm always like, your program is the chicken, but you have to add the spices to make it taste better. The teacher is the spice, right? So like. You might not have all the right ingredients. You might not know your standards, or you might not know the questions to ask, or you might not know how this math is connected to other math. So then, yeah, your lessons are like, I don't wanna say your lessons taste like shit, but like your lessons are like gonna fall super flat. And as leaders, they often are like, well, that district over there got that program and, and they're, they're doing great. Why are they doing great? And we are not. And that's the conversation I'm having over and over again.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:45

Oh my God. I love this because also like programs cost a lot of money, right? Like

Alison Mello 8:50

Hundreds of thousands of dollars. Oh yes. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. So huge investment. And then not to mention the investment of time, like for the training that you get with the program. Like think of what you're investing. Your teacher's trust. that's a huge thing that we could talk about too. Like they're trusting you with this thing and trusting you with their time, and then they're sitting there and then does it, does anything change? Does anything get better? Like that is so much of the work that I'm doing, like trying to shift this lens from like pd, which is teachers often feel, I'm gonna let you in on a little secret, they often feel like it's being done to them, not for them. And so they resent it sometimes. I don't know. Have you ever encountered that phenomenon?

Vanessa Vakharia 9:31

Oh my God. This, I am already picturing the clip I'm gonna post on Instagram of just this mic drop. That was really good, Alison.

Alison Mello 9:37

Well, it's for real though. Like have you ever seen the meme? This could have been an email. Like so much of that. Let me figure out how to use this program like through training, but like when am I gonna learn like the real stuff about the pedagogy or the math content or the stuff I don't get? Like maybe I don't understand fractions. And all of a sudden there was this model in my new program that I've never seen before in my life and it triggers my math trauma to go right back to, I'm like the kid. I had a teacher tell me recently, and I don't wanna take this credit, this is how she said it to me. She stayed late after our session and said, you just healed the third grade me's math trauma. And like she had tears in her eyes and I was like, oh my gosh. Like amazing.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:16

to stop you right there. We are recording this episode on International Women's Day, and I think we can all agree that it's an odd thing Alison just said of, I don't wanna take the credit for the compliment someone literally gave to me. So I would like to, as one of the, your favorite women in your life, hand you the credit. You may have the credit, it is yours.

Alison Mello 10:38

I'm going to receive it because we've been working on this as friends.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:42

Yes. Please receive it. Um,

Why PD fails teachers

Vanessa Vakharia 10:45

there's a couple things I wanna bring up here because this is so powerful and I'm trying to, there's like three different things I wanna ask you. The first is something you brought up, which is the idea of teachers bringing their own math trauma to the table, uh, unintentionally, obviously.

Alison Mello 10:58

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:58

I think this is really important that you're, and let me make sure I'm, I'm hearing what you're saying, but you're basically like, okay, cool. You've got all these teachers. You're thinking as a leader, Hey, this other district is doing so well with this curriculum. I know what I'll do. I'll purchase that curriculum. I'll give it to my teachers, and hopefully I'll get the same results. However, the people you're handing them to. There's a whole bunch of stuff going on. One of the things that's very well documented that we know is going on is that so many teachers have their own math trauma, and anxieties around math. How can handing them a new curriculum, so a new set of practices with which to teach content, how can that exacerbate their math trauma? Like, spell it out for us. Like, how can that make things worse? Because I think most leaders are very well intentioned in thinking this is gonna help, but what is the, what are they missing here?

Alison Mello 11:44

Well, there's a couple of ingredients. So one, is really not understanding that when you ask teachers to fo, I do a talk called Fidelity, the other F word, when you ask teachers to follow something with fidelity, it can be professionally insulting. Like I don't think you have any knowledge and teachers come with master's degrees, you know, education. They experience all of those things.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:05

Wait, define fidelity for us. Define fidelity.

Alison Mello 12:07

Fidelity means follow the script. And by the way, I'm actually glad you asked for clarification because I think that word means different things to different people and different leaders. But how teachers receive it, I ask teachers all the time, is that a trigger word? They're like, yes, that is such a trigger word. Like we hate the word fidelity and we don't wanna ever hear that word. And I think it's because it offends them. At the end of the day. If we really lean into teachers and say, what would be helpful? They want to know how to make learning more engaging. They want to have more fun with their kids, and they want an outcome like, I taught it, they got it. And sometimes when we start to unpack what that actually is, is, well, maybe it's because I don't actually understand the math enough to make the connections or like to use the manipulatives or the visuals or whatever. I think that's where vulnerability and psychological safety are like, and I don't wanna be all technical, but in the research, oftentimes we take a technical approach to change. Technical things are like, I get the new program, I hire the math coach, and I check the box, and I think I'm all set. It's not that it's adaptive, and adaptive works hard, like it takes a long time. We're changing teachers' mindsets. We're changing their confidence about math. I was terrible at math. It is like Steve, uh, Steve Leinwand, a colleague of mine, he uses the term educational malpractice. That was literally me when I started teaching educational malpractice. And I always let teachers know that like every mistake you could make, I made it because I want them to be safe. I want them to be safe to take a risk. So I think sometimes, and you get this program and you're looking at this math and you're like, I have no idea. I've never seen a tape diagram in my life. I don't understand what is a partial quotient. I, I don't understand these things, what they are, I've never seen an algebra tile. That professional learning needs to be something to build teachers' capacity, not to be compliant to a program.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:55

Oh my God. Okay. What I'm realizing right now, because as you were saying, like I, you know, I have no idea what a tape diagram looks like, da da da. I started getting anxious because I, I think I've mentioned this before on the podcast, nothing gives me math anxiety, like an elementary pd, like when I go into a grade three pd and then they're like, we're gonna use the things with the beads. That thing you like with a, what is that thing? rec and rec or whatever, and and I'm like, fuck, I don't know how to do this. Or we do something where we're modeling algebraic equations, but you know, with the rectangles and you're supposed to fill them in with the different amounts and

Alison Mello 14:28

The area model. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:29

Oh, right. The area model. Thank you,

Alison Mello 14:31

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:32

Right. So if I was a teacher right now in the classroom and that was in my curriculum, I would be freaking out. Because I have my own anxiety around math from past.

Alison Mello 14:41

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:42

Now I'm seeing this thing and it's triggering that I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing, let alone the fact that I'm a high school math teacher and this is elementary math that I don't understand. So what am I gonna do? I'm telling you what I'm gonna do right now. I'm gonna be like, I'm just gonna teach this the way that I know.

Alison Mello 14:57

A hundred, yes, exactly where I was going. That's exactly right. And so then they don't get the results that they're hoping to get because they're actually not using these resources in a way that changes their practice. You just nailed it. If I am uncomfortable, I'm gonna defer to what I know. And when I start to ask questions about like, how has that worked for you? Do you ever notice that kids, they seem to know it one week and they don't know it a couple weeks later or whatever. Teachers are always like, yes. It is the hardest thing to set a condition, to be able to really look at ourselves in the mirror and say, Ooh, maybe something I'm doing is contributing to that. And I really feel strongly teachers would love a better way if it was safe to get there, if it wasn't so scary.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:42

Well, and here's the thing is this is also where the discourse comes around of being like, well, we've tried to implement, like, these new practices, it's not working. So we're gonna go back to the old way. What's. Actually happened is the new ways, using air quotes of teaching, whatever are in the curriculum, those things are handed out. But actually nobody ever, you, nobody ever implements them. So then we have this fall, this is happening in Ontario right now, where

Alison Mello 16:05

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:05

It's like, they're like, but we wrote this into the curriculum and it's not happening, and therefore we should go back to basics. And it's like, yeah, you fucking wrote it into the curriculum. You handed people a piece of paper, they probably never read it, or they did. And they were like, fuck this, I'm just gonna do it my own way. It never happened. And now your analysis is, well, it's been happening for three years, 'cause it was on a piece of paper. It's like it was never happening. So please do not take that as a data point that it's not working, it's not happening. So there's that. But then there's probably the other piece, I'm guessing, where teachers are trying to teach it in this the way it is in the curriculum, but they're not doing it in a way that is productive.

Alison Mello 16:39

Well, no, if I'm trying to do it and I don't really, I'm just following a script, I'm like a robot, like that's not engaging for any kids either. So everything becomes very passive. They're following slides and they're like doing what they're supposed to be doing because they're rule followers, but it's not landing. You're not engaging the math practices, you're not doing things to, it's, you're not adding the spice, you're not elevating it to make it taste good. That's the part, I mean, I can't believe you brought up that analogy because I constantly, my teachers are always like, I know Alison, the chicken, like the program is a chicken. I'm like, right. What are the spices that you're bringing to make it taste better?

Vanessa Vakharia 17:11

funny 'cause Alison I know has a, a bit of like an interesting diet in that there are things she really loves and one of them is chicken. You love chicken, you eat

Alison Mello 17:22

I do love chicken, so that's what I, I always tell them, I'm like, we're making chicken cacciatore. This is literally my analogy I do with teachers. We're making a chicken cacciatore. And the main ingredient is what? And they're like chicken, great. But everyone else is gonna put different things. People are gonna put peppers, people are gonna put onions, they're gonna have different types of sauce and different types of spices. That's the work I do with teachers is like, let's make it spicy. Let's have some fun. Like how are you gonna take this and make it better? Yeah. And when they start to have aha moments about the math, they're like, they start to get mad. Like, how come I didn't learn this way? I'm like, me too. I am mad that I did not learn this the way that I could understand it. I never knew these things were connected. It's like such an epiphany. And here's the thing that you touched on. The teachers have these programs and maybe, or maybe not, they're using them or whatever. It doesn't even really matter because I've seen repeatedly since I started consulting full time teachers get a math program literally this year, and we, we work on it and then next year they get a new literacy program. It happens. I can't tell you how many times it's happened. I can't even count. And it's like, when do they get to practice and get good at something before their attention is turned over here? So that's like another thing on my three thing list is like, do we give teachers the time? Do we give them time to like work together with their colleagues? Do we give them time to work vertically with so they know where the math is going and where the math came from and like make it all connected? Like we don't give them time for that.

How to make PD more effective

Vanessa Vakharia 18:42

Okay, so we're gonna get to that in one second. But first I wanna ask for those listening who are like, oh my God, okay, like, we've got the chicken. How do I add the spice? You know, can we give, can we give our listeners a couple of options of how to add the spice? Like a leader's listening right now, they're like, fuck, I think this is what's happening to me. Like I have this curriculum, but it's just, it's not happening. What can they do? And if a teacher is listening and that teacher is like, well, I want the spice, how do I get my leader to add the spice? What can they do?

Alison Mello 19:12

Oh my God. Okay, again, easy recipe here. Number one. When we're doing professional learning, which is really centered around pedagogy, content, not program per se, it can be, it can be meshed, but it's sort of separate. The leaders need to be with us in the room and they need to be as vulnerable as we're asking teachers to be, which is really hard. Because guess what? They might have their own math trauma too. They might have some stuff in their backpack that needs to be unpacked. So that's number one is we all need to be together doing the math. The leaders who I've worked with who have done that, phenomenal results. Number two, that's gonna relate to what they do on walkthroughs. I'm not just looking for like the learning target on the board and like if I don't see that, then I ding you on the lesson, that's a gotcha. If I'm working with a group of teachers and telling them what the spice could be, here's the spice. The spice could be if you're going to say something and, and you're gonna tell kids, change it to a form of a question. If you see something that could potentially be hands-on, and even if the program's not making it hands-on, make it hands-on. You don't have manipulatives. Act it out. Use candy. Use anything that you have. You know what I mean? Like just to make it like a multisensory experience and make it more engaging, change the context, all those types of things. If I'm a leader and I come in and I see all that stuff. And it doesn't look like my, it doesn't look like I can't see the chicken as easily 'cause it's buried by all the spices. I might, it might turn into a gotcha. So like they have to be there to say, this is what, who are you hiring to do your professional learning here? And do you value them? And are your, is your staff gonna trust them enough to really do learning? And then if this person like me tells them, use manipulatives, do this, do that, and then their administrator comes in and dings them for it, they're getting a mixed message. So like, teachers are afraid sometimes to add the spice because they're like, Ooh, my, my principal's gonna come in and like, they're not gonna see this and it's gonna be a problem. So sometimes we thwart the progress ourselves, not even realizing it as leaders.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:06

I'm reminded of a couple of things The first is, in a way you're kind of like, it's not only the teachers that end up inadvertently with a recipe card and no way to ex, you know, no sort of develop like training on how to execute it. Sometimes it's the leaders that are using the recipe card as an assessment tool, almost.

Alison Mello 21:25

Yes. Bingo.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:27

Right. So it's like for the leaders to know none of us here should be living and dying by this recipe card. They need to be in the room when the training is happening so they can hear someone saying, yes, here's the chicken. Sorry, this is it. This is it. This chicken thing has really made it like, I am also really hungry now. Okay? So I'm like, you know, they need to be in the room so everyone understands what the chicken is. Everyone understands what the spice is, and everyone understands that just because the chicken is spicy doesn't mean it's not chicken anymore.

Alison Mello 21:54

Exactly. Oh my gosh, you nailed it. Because I feel like I'm like, tell them what the must dos are and what the may dos are and what the success criteria looks like and do we all agree? We make like common agreements about it. And when you create that environment, people can be safe to say, you gave me this recipe, but I have to tell you, I'm on Worst Cooks in America. Like I don't know how to cook. Like if they can be safe to say that, then we can really start the real work with them. It's gonna endure. It's gonna be awesome.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:23

I love this. And I have to also say, as a business owner, like, you know, I own a tutoring center. I have been so guilty of doing this as a leader. Like where I'm like, well, I sent them the email with all the points on how to respond to a student inquiry, and then I'll see an email that someone has sent to a student and I'll be like. What the fuck? Like that's not like, well, what has happened is they followed my recipe, but there's like no personality in it, or like, it sounds really cold, but they theoretically, technically followed the rules of how to respond to a student. And it's my fault because I haven't coached them. I haven't guided them, I haven't done walkthroughs with them. I haven't been like, here, watch me do it. Like I haven't done any of those things. So I think that's why I'm like, this really does apply to any type of leader. You know, it's like, yes, we can send out the emails and the newsletters and give them the employee handbook or whatever, but like, if you're not there with them on the day to day and you're not like helping giving them that development, it, it falls flat.

Alison Mello 23:19

Totally flat. It's the difference between compliance and engagement. Like I can be compliant and do everything you said, but if I'm engaged, I'm gonna bring myself to it. But here's the real question. Do teachers feel that there's room for that at the table? Because if it's set up as like a strict fidelity thing, then there is no room. So one of the things I really love that again, I don't see often is like. Do we establish feedback loops for teachers? Is there a spot for them to share their feedback about how this is going? Their questions, their challenges, their successes? Do we celebrate with them all? Like, to me, the joy can go out of the work so easily right now in education, in any, in any field, truly. But like there's, there's so many things on people's plates. Do we ever stop and celebrate? Like, oh my gosh, this was awesome. And then can I say, by the way, I also struggled with this, and maybe you're the teacher across the hall and you're gonna be like, I didn't struggle with that. I did this. And then we all learn from each other. Do we create those conditions for them to actually have that and do that? And often the answer is no. Like, teachers will give feedback, nothing will happen, and guess what's gonna happen if you keep doing that? They're not gonna give you their feedback anymore. They're gonna close their door, they're gonna go back to doing whatever they did before. Like, you know, um, I don't know if you know that the shortcut for the division algorithm does McDonald's sell cheeseburgers? They're gonna do like these things that they know because they don't get partial quotient. I know. Sorry, I shouldn't have gone there, but we're on a food kick. Um, it's like a

Vanessa Vakharia 24:38

is point number two though, right? This is our second thing, by the way. we're, we're so in it, but I didn't wanna interrupt you, but this is number two. Okay. So number one, just to synthesize like what would we call our number one point? It's the idea of you can't adopt a new program and expect everything to be solved without an implementation plan. Like, do you think that's a good.

Alison Mello 24:59

I think that covers it, and also respecting that teachers are coming to this in different places, so we have to think about getting beyond the pd, which is the program adoption to the PL that they actually need so they can become better teachers of math and feel better about math themselves.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:14

Okay. So beyond adoption and into like learning,

Alison Mello 25:18

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:19

if we're

Alison Mello 25:20

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:20

versus just because we're using a lot of acronyms, I just wanna like,

Alison Mello 25:22

Professional development versus professional learning. Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:25

Yeah.

How feedback really works

Vanessa Vakharia 25:26

Okay. Sick. So number two, establishing a feedback loop. You've just

Alison Mello 25:30

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:30

And I wanna unpack a bit because I think this is so important. Your last statement rang so true to me. If you are asking for feedback, okay, be a feedback loop is great. And you know why it's great? Because it's called a loop. And a loop. A loop means not just feedback, goes one way and dies there. It means somebody responds to the feedback and takes it. There's a difference between being open to feedback and being like responsive to feedback.

Alison Mello 25:59

Yes,

Vanessa Vakharia 25:59

It's like you can't just be like, yes, yes, I hear you and do nothing about it. So like, I think what you're kind of saying here is there has to be a feedback loop where teachers need to, number one, be given positive and negative feedback. It can't just be one or the other. It can't just be like, you're doing everything great and here's nothing for improvement. It can't just be, here are all the things you're doing wrong. And then also teachers need to be able to get feedback and get a response.

Alison Mello 26:23

I think when leaders are at the table and they're giving feedback, they have a lot more street cred with teachers because they were actually in the room and know what they should be giving feedback on. So like I create common look fors with leaders all the time. But what I was actually talking about is when teachers have a trainer come in or a program, whatever. Do they get to give feedback and does that feedback then inform the next things that happen? So I'll give you an example. I was in a district last week and I was talking to them, I've never met them before, and I'm not sure that everyone was entirely excited about it because they've had other experiences that they didn't love. And I was really grateful that it went really well and they were excited about it. So I told each level as they left, next time I come, I want you to place your order. That's what I tell them all the time, place your order. What do you need? Because I think teachers don't often get that voice to say, well, this is like maybe what second grade needs is very different from what eighth grade needs or what high school needs. And so that's actually point 3, is how do we differentiate PD to give people what they need? We ask teachers to do that every single day. We have things called WIN blocks. What I Need. Well, do we give teachers what they need? Not often.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:33

So we're gonna get to that in a second. And so TANC because my last guest, AKA, your colleague Steve Leinwand, went on a whole tear about differentiation. So this is perfect,

Alison Mello 27:41

really?

Vanessa Vakharia 27:42

but

How to give & receive feedback

Vanessa Vakharia 27:43

I actually wanna ask you about this because I'm working with a district right now, and I feel like that's exactly it. I'm like, I want you to give me feedback so I can deliver what you need. Right? Like I, I do think that's really, really important. I think this goes back to your earlier comment of being like, a lot of educators feel like PD is done. To them instead of for them, because you come in and you talk about this thing and they're like, what the fuck? Like, what I really need help with is my student is struggling and like, what? Like, you know, whatever. Like they're experiencing crazy anxiety and I'm here doing this PD about manipulatives and I really need to talk about this other thing or whatever. My question is, is I keep asking for feedback. I gave like them an anonymous feedback form, 'cause I'm seeing them, I'm seeing them regularly. I can't get a single thing. What is going what, what do I do? So like there is no feedback I'm getting, even though I'm trying to ask for it in all these different ways. I think I'm creating a safe environment. Maybe I'm not, like, what can I do there? Because I think there might be some people listening who are like, I do, the floor is open for feedback, but I'm not getting any. What can we do?

Alison Mello 28:40

You have to acknowledge and realize and wonder what has happened to these people before you came into the picture. Have they given feedback in the past and it has gone nowhere? Have they already made their decision about what it means to give feedback and what it actually translates to. If the feedback in your case is, is funneling through their leadership and they know their leadership doesn't do anything with it, then that's going to impact the way that they give you feedback. It just does. It's not fair, but it does. I started to be very prepared when I go places because I had an experience where I got there and I started doing my, my thing that I planned and they were like. They were so sweet to tell me that like, this is not what we thought we were getting. And I was like, well, what did you think you were getting? And we just changed it on the fly because I really wanted them to leave feeling, teachers wanna be seen and heard and valued. Like it just comes down to that. And they deserve that. They work really hard. And so if you can give them that in any small way and in the work that you are doing in particular, then I'm sure that they're gonna be comfortable enough to tell you, even if they're not putting it in a form. And I bet they would tell you if you got them on a call, they'd be like, okay, this is what we really need to do. But sometimes those forms don't feel safe. They don't know who's gonna look at it. Is it gonna come back at them? Is it gonna be conceived as they're, um, like perceived as they're complaining or it's a judgment or whatever. So a lot of times people don't, they ask me repeatedly, is this truly confidential? Is this truly anonymous? Like if I say something, is it gonna come back at me? So it could be that, I don't know, but it could be.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:01

Well, that's actually a really good tip. 'cause as you're saying that, I'm like, oh my God. You know, it's like how I feel like when sometimes I'll leave you a voice note and I'll be like, I'm voice noting this 'cause I can't text it. Even though I trust you a million percent, but I'm like, should this get screenshotted or sent somewhere? You know what I mean? But I wonder if it is that it is a form and they're like, what if somebody else sees it? And that is a really, really good point because, you know, and I've done this, there have been many schools I've done this with where the, the group of educators I'm working with have been like just FYI like, if there's any way we could have an admin free session, we would love that 'cause a lot of us are feeling freaked out, like a, you know, for a whole range of reasons. Like it might just be a bad experience. It might be because they're scared because their school is in a weird place and like there's job scarcity, whatever it is. And I have found, and like maybe this is something else for leaders to just hear that, in my experience, educators never want that because they want to slack off or like talk shit or something. They just want to feel like they can bring their whole selves and so much more I find gets done.

Alison Mello 31:04

A hundred percent. And it's, so I'm really gonna give you this whole, I'm gonna contradict myself here because when the leaders are in the room, sometimes you get a different response, but the leaders need to be in the room. So it really, what that all comes down to is relationships. So I'll give you an example from a district I'm in right now. They have a brand new principal. They love this principal. When she wasn't in the room, they were talking to me about how great she was. When she came in the room, their demeanor changed. They don't know her well enough yet to feel safe. I think she's gonna be great and not gonna judge them, but they don't know that yet. So they're too afraid. It's Brene Brown, like the vulnerability, it's a scary thing to be vulnerable. So the anecdote to that leaders is come in and be vulnerable yourself. Talk about your own. I I am self-deprecating at every turn. Right? Here's where I suck at this. I suck. And I try to give them validation. I'm sure you do this, but I didn't. I was today years old when I learned this. Even if that's not exactly true, it creates this comfort zone for everyone that's so important so that they can take a risk.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:01

What a beautiful little antidote to the whole thing to be like, well, you gotta be, we do want you in the room, but we need you to be in the room in a way that makes everyone feel safe. And guess what, Alison, this is the coolest thing. What have we been telling teachers for the past, like two, three years? Model mistake making in front of your students, right. We're like, make a mistake in front of your students, even if it's not a real mistake. Like just fudge like making a mistake, messing up some calculation so they can see it's normal to make mistakes. They can see your vulnerability so they can be vulnerable. And now we're just climbing that up the ladder and asking leaders to do the same thing. Oh my God, we're so fucking smart. Okay you

Creating agency through choice

Vanessa Vakharia 32:36

mentioned your third point and I wanna at least talk about it. Okay. So we've done point number one. Which was the idea of implementing a program is not the same as just handing somebody a program. There's like a bunch around it from, you know, in, from conception to the actual learning. Point number two was about establishing a feedback loop, and point number three was.

Alison Mello 32:58

Differentiating for the people in front of you, allowing them to self differentiate and then planning intentionally to differentiate. So, agency is something, as humans, we need. We need to feel like we have skin in the game. If you've ever had a little kid in your life and they're like, I don't wanna wear socks, you're like, no, no, you're gonna wear socks. Do you wanna wear red socks, blue socks, white socks, whatever. But you're gonna wear socks. They just have some sense of they have skin in the game. And that goes back to the fidelity. If I just have to do this and there's nothing for me to add and there's nothing for me to select, then I don't feel great about it. So when we have professional learning opportunities, like I'm a big fan of conference style, and I actually made my own conference just to do this because I really want learning to be joyful. But even in like districts on a small scale, creating opportunities where, okay, this is the session everybody has to do, and communicating that as leaders. Why, why do we have to do it? We've identified this in the data, or you've identified this in your feedback loop, or you shared it in a survey or whatever. So this is something that we want everybody to have. It's the must have. Then there's may do things just like we do with kids, and you can pick what you need based on where you are on your learning journey. And we're not gonna compare because comparison is the thief of joy. You are on your own journey. So you and I might have to split up when we make a choice because guess what? I need this and you need that and that's okay. We'll talk about it later. Like that's the easiest way to get there in my book.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:17

Oh my God. Okay, so a couple things I wanna say back to that sock analogy. There is so much research around trauma informed learning right now that shows for kids with any sort of, you know, off-task behavior or kids who are coming into the classroom with an unmet need, which so many kids are, whether their needs within our purview or like, they're literally hungry, they haven't gotten enough sleep, whatever. One of the things that can be so effective is the idea of giving them choice. Now, we're calling it differentiation, but it's just that you gotta wear socks or you gotta come to this pd, but you can pick what socks you wear, right? You can pick which sessions you go to. And there's so much that shows, even in a math classroom, for example, like, fine, we're gonna, you know, you're here, you're in the math classroom, we're gonna learn math, we're gonna do this problem. But even if you give kids a, you can do this problem with a friend, you can do it alone. You can sit it, you can do it sitting down, you can do it standing up. You can do it in the hallway, you can do it at the carpet. All of a sudden it actually changes the energy around it because kids feel like, I love how you put it, like they have skin in the game, like they're being seen and heard. And this is the exact same for teachers. You know, I was thinking, I did a keynote the other day and there were some very interesting behaviors in my keynote. There were educators that walked in and saw that an activity was gonna happen and stormed outta the room because they didn't wanna do an activity. There were educators who came in and they sat at the very, very, very back and they were on their phones there entire time. There were educators who came in, clearly did not necessarily want to be there. Now, I actually asked them, I asked them, I was like, guys, I, I'm curious how many of you are here? Just 'cause like you have to be here?

Alison Mello 35:57

Voluntold, yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:59

Yeah, you have to be at this conference, and you thought to yourself like, this keynote is in the biggest room possible. So if I go into this big room, I can hide in the back. And hands went up I

Alison Mello 36:10

Are honest.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:12

I loved it. I was like, fuck yeah. And I said, how many of you are here? Because you didn't wanna go to any of the sessions and this looked like the least bad session hands went up, you know? It's interesting because, I think you said this to me on a call, like we're adults are students, we're all learners. We're just bigger learners than the smaller, younger learners. Right? We all have these same tendencies. We all have the need to be seen and heard. We all have this need for agency. Like all of it is the same. So I think a, a really interesting thing, or like almost like a big takeaway that I'm taking right now is, if you want your students to do something, if we are told that something is good for students, if there's something you're trying to get teachers to do with their students, ask yourself, is this something I could be doing for my teachers?

Alison Mello 36:55

Yes. My phrase is walk your talk. If you say that things should be differentiated, then differentiate. If you say that sessions should involve discourse, then let people talk. If you say, you know what, you should give kids agency and trust them to make choices, then we have to do the same with teachers. They deserve that. You know, and if you are worried like, Ooh, I'm not sure I can trust them, I don't know, then build their capacity. Because if you build their capacity, then they'll be able to make those really great decisions. Uh, teachers tell me all the time when they feel like they have a choice, they feel seen and respected as professionals, and oftentimes that has deteriorated in education for whatever reason. Initiative overload, whatever it is. And I kind of liken it to the difference between, and we've talked about this before in many calls, motivation versus inspiration. Motivation, when you actually research it, like I can motivate you by giving, knowing you're gonna get a bad grade or you're gonna lose your job. Like there's not all posi, motivation feels like it might be positive, it's not always positive. Inspiration, on the other hand, when you're inspired to do something, it, you'll stay up till three in the morning. You'll do whatever it takes because you wanna do it 'cause it's for you. I think we need to get back into the inspiration business. I think we have an inspiration gap with teachers and if we can inspire them by giving them these opportunities, it's gonna change everything.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:13

Well, this is the perfect little segue into your incredible fucking conference that I will be speaking at called Get Your Workshop On. Guys. It's happening the whole point is to inspire teachers. Do you want me to talk about how great it is or do you wanna talk about how great it's

Alison Mello 38:28

Oh, you can, I'd love to hear what, what your perception of it is. Yes, please tell me.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:33

Sometimes it's nice to have someone else just boost you. So guys, Alison is having this conference every single year. She has a theme. This is my first year actually being initiated into this world. And the theme is Christmas in fucking Summertime. Oh my God. David face. That's right. So all of the talks are like themed for the holiday. She's gonna have hot chocolate. There's like a gingerbread land. I don't even know. It sounds actually chaotic and amazing. Uh, we, the whole thing is, professional development for teachers. So I'm doing one of the keynotes. It will be about redefining failure and success, but there will be a holiday rom-com spin on it. I cannot even wait to tell you what the outfits are gonna be, 'cause I don't even know. But like, it's just a whole vibe. So it's professional development where there will be lots of learning, but there's gonna be so much teacher appreciation and like fun stuff going on. The whole vibe of it is inspiration. So we all know sometimes you go to professional development and you're like, wow, I'm being told session after session about all the things I'm doing wrong

Alison Mello 39:31

Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:32

Huh. Okay. So did I, did I get it? Is there, I mean, now you like jump in with the actual facts because I just like yelled a lot, but I'm

Alison Mello 39:38

No, that's what I'm going for is that vibe. First of all, it's a day in the summer, and so knowing that teachers have come year after year and are willing to give up a day is amazing. Second, it is high quality professional learning wrapped in teacher appreciation. Greeted by a red carpet, when they arrive. Guess what? They can get a drink anytime they want. They can go to the bathroom anytime they want. They can pick a session to go have a massage and some shopping because it's a small part of their day to do their SEL needs, like take care of themselves. But in between, they are choosing the sessions that meet them and they're banded. Pre-K, K, um, K to two, three to five, six to eight, so they can really hone in and get what they need. And I just have to tell you my keynote because since you talked about your keynote, my keynote is called Move Over Elf on the Shelf: Teachers Bring the Real Magic. Because that is, it doesn't matter. Like yes, you have your program, but it's you, you are the difference maker, right? You do the thing.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:37

You are the spice! The elf is just the chicken.

Alison Mello 40:41

Yes. Oh my gosh. High five through the screen here. Thank you for bringing it back to the spice. I love everything about that, so I'm really pumped about it.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:49

It's almost sold out also, so if you're listening, you need to go register. How do people do that? Tell them really quick before we wrap up.

Alison Mello 40:56

The website is called Get Your Workshop On and you can register now. Actually, the early bird pricing closes. I don't know when this will drop this episode, but it, it closes March 31st, but then there's regular, but you're right, the spots might be gone by then. 'cause we have a lot of unbelievable speakers, some of whom are like you, and like everybody knows, and others who are in the classroom practicing and taking a huge risk to put themselves out there and share their brilliance. Which is actually why I love having this platform to get their voices out there. So thank you for letting me share that.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:26

Honestly, you are so incredible. Thank you for everything you shared. There's so much I'm thinking about, like everything you said is so applicable to education, but again, so applicable to life, to all the ways we lead to anyone. Like just, anyone, everyone everywhere. And

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 41:41

I have to stop rambling now, so I'm gonna ask you the final two questions. You have 60 seconds to answer. Are you ready?

Alison Mello 41:46

Ready, bring it.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:47

Number, if you could like wave a magic wand and one thing changed about the way math is taught in school as what would it be?

Alison Mello 41:54

That everybody found the beauty and joy in it through the experiences that they have.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:00

Oh, that's so nice Alison

Alison Mello 42:02

want people to leave saying, wow, that was really cool and it's fun and it's joyful. Yeah, because people used to say that to me, math is beautiful, and I'd be like, what math are you doing? I've never seen any beauty in math.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 42:13

Okay. Question number two. Someone's listening to this, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that people bring their trauma to PD and like that might be why I'm not into this or whatever, but I honestly think, Alison, that I'm just not a math person. What's your response?

Alison Mello 42:26

Oh, I really want them to think about anytime they've learned anything in their entire life, in any realm, it doesn't have to be school. What was it about the experience that made it so good for them and it's, nine times outta 10, it's gonna come down to the person. So just because you had a bad experience with one math teacher or one math classroom, or one way of learning math, it doesn't mean you're not a math person. I always tell teachers, you know how like custodians have a lot of keys on their key ring? That's how we are as teachers. We have all these keys and our job is to figure out how to unlock each student and they don't all unlock with the same key. So like, we need to just figure that out. And so you might not have found the way to unlock your brilliance yet. That's all.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 43:07

Okay. The only thing that could have made that better is if you had, if somehow that tied into cooking a chicken. But honestly, I'll take it.

Alison Mello 43:14

You're right. I should have gone back to the chicken analogy.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:17

We have a lot of spices. No,

Alison Mello 43:20

we, well, you know what? It could be that the teachers you had made you a meal that you didn't really like the taste of. And so you have to find the other teachers who are gonna add the right spices to make it be your favorite meal you've ever had in your life. And I've had teachers say that to, I like math now. I didn't know I like math.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:38

Okay, and I'll take it one step further, that as an educator or leader you have all sorts of condiments and options to make this chicken dish, but all of your learners have different dietary requirements and different preferences.

Alison Mello 43:52

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:52

We're done. We're

Alison Mello 43:53

Yes. Oh my gosh. Drop the mic. Yes, we are done. We are done. That was amazing. Yes. Thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:59

Bye. I'll call you later. I'll

Alison Mello 44:01

David.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:02

note in a second.

Alison Mello 44:03

Okay. Bye bye. Bye.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:06

I know you're now as obsessed with Allison as I am, but back off she is mine. JKJK. I actually want everyone to benefit from her incredible wisdom because it is rare to meet someone who will actually tell it like it is, but do so in a caring solution forward way. She's truly one of a kind. As always, I want to hear from you, so tell me what did you think of today's conversation. You can now not only text the podcast, but we can actually respond to you. So hit the text us link in your show notes to make that happen. And I know there's someone in your life that came to mind during this conversation, so please, please share this episode with them too. Also, guys, Math Therapy now has a Facebook group started by two Michigan teachers, Karen Leno and Ryan Zibo, and it is popping off with good vibes, strategy sharing, and so much more. So you should join, all you have to do is type Math Therapy into your Facebook search bar and request to join, and we will let you in. A reminder that Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by David Kochberg, and the music you're hearing right now is by our band goodnight Sunrise. Look us up, give us a follow stream us on Spotify, Apple Music, wherever you get your music. We're there. We're everywhere. Just hit play. And once again, thank you guys so much for being here. I'll see you next week. Same day, same channel.