Steve Leinwand

Steve Leinwand 0:03

We know how to significantly improve the teaching and learning of mathematics and nothing drives me crazier than how hard it is to bring that to scale.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:18

Okay guys, it's me, Vanessa, and to be honest, I have no idea how to properly introduce today's guest, Steve Leinwand. I really don't even know what happened in this interview. Like all I know is he showed up like he always does. Cutting through the bullshit and asking the tough questions like, why can't we reform math education when we know how to fix it? Why does some PD feel like a waste of time and money, and how can we make it more useful? And finally, and most unexpectedly, what is the point of my podcast and why did I ask him to be on it? All very fair questions. TBH. Steven Leinwand has been a driving force in math education for nearly 50 years, shaping policy, curriculum, and teaching practices at the highest levels. He's held major leadership roles with organizations like the National Council for Teachers of Mathematics, and the National Council for Supervisors of Mathematics. He has advised on national initiatives like, the National Assessment of Educational Progress, and worked with organizations like the American Institute for Research, earning multiple national awards along the way. But what really sets him apart is that thousands of educators around the world have experienced his work firsthand and have changed their teaching because of it. Today I am gonna take a page out of his book and just get right to the interview. I need to know what you guys think of this convo, so please get in touch. You can text the podcast, DM me on Instagram@themathguru or email me vanessa@themathguru.ca. All those links are in the show notes in your podcast player. Okay, buckle up and brace yourself for the one and only Steve Leinwand.

Steve Leinwand 1:53

My question to you as way of introduction and framing this is what's the purpose? What's your purpose in doing this? You invited me yesterday. I said sure, I'm on vacation, but I'm never really on vacation. Um, I'm intrigued by this whole thing. I'll talk to any audience anytime in any place about mathematics and about education and about how screwed up this world is.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:15

It's true.

Steve Leinwand 2:16

And there's my wife saying in the background, it's true. And she's absolutely right. So you got the whole carnival sitting here and, and so you have to answer that question. And then the, the floor is yours.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:26

Well, thank you so much for giving me the floor on my own podcast. Um, okay, so. That's a great question. What is the point? What is the purpose? And I would like to also just add a little framing that Steve has now been on here for 45 minutes while we sort out technology, because we are recording this in the middle of a Mercury retrograde. Everyone, what is the point? Um, great question. I, I don't know that there's a point to anything, but the reason I invited you specifically on the podcast is because Steve, there's a lot of hype around you. You know, like in the math ed spaces, people are like, that's Steve Line Oneand, that's Steve Line Oneand. And I've always been like, who is this man? So as you know, I came to one of your talks'cause I was like, I wanna see what the hype is about and I believe I came up to you after that talk. And I said, you know what? The hype is real. And the reason I'm having you on is I just like your vibe, but also the thing about you that I love is there is zero bullshit when it comes to you. Like you are, you've been around, you know what I mean? Like you've, been in policy, you've been in the classroom, you've been in every like, almost every single math education space. And I feel like you have a wealth of knowledge and a delivery method that we could all benefit from because you're just gonna tell it as it is. And I've got some questions for you. Is that a good answer?

Steve Leinwand 3:44

That's a great answer. I mean, it, it's a great way to start. I mean, it is really wonderful that there's this hype and this vibe and all that stuff. I just am who I am. I also believe that it's much more important to make a difference and sometimes piss people off than it is to just be nice. And so once you don't feel like being nice is important, then when people tell you, I thought you were an asshole the first time I met you, and then even the second time. And then it got to,

Vanessa Vakharia 4:10

And the third time

Steve Leinwand 4:12

find out, well, usually by the third time they go, you know what, that's just who you are. And that's not what's important. So, you know, it's nice to hear all those things. I believe that it's my, passion and my experiences that make me of some value. Um, I probably apologize more than anyone else that you know, because I, I say things that maybe I didn't think through or I do things that I probably shouldn't have done. Um, I sent a memo off to the office of the state superintendent of education. I'm on a task force in DC for doing high school stuff, and the first line was, allow me to begin by apologizing for my rant the other day. Allow me to be more rational and coherent in my three page memo that sort of says the same thing, but a little with a smile. Okay, so that's what,

Code-switching: being your full self in math ed

Vanessa Vakharia 5:02

Oh my God. I mean, what an intro, you know? Okay. I have to say something that I never thought I was gonna say. I think we might be more alike than I actually thought. What you just said really struck me about how you are the same person in every space you're in. I think we might be similar in that way, There is so much energy involved when you have to code switch. And to say not everyone has the privilege of being the same person in every single space, of course. But you know what you're making me think of, is you're making me think of math identity. Because one of the biggest things when it comes to math identity is this feeling that I've always had, but I've never acted upon, that you need to be somebody different when you're in a math classroom or to belong to a math world. Most people feel that. I think you and I for some reason, are just who we are in every single space. I think that is a, I don't know, I'm gonna have to think about that because when you said that, I was like, yeah, me too. And I've been criticized a lot for it. And it seems like you have to, but here we are. Well, first of all, do you agree that there is this feeling out there that you need to be a different person in a math space than you are in your quote unquote real life?

Steve Leinwand 6:07

I think that the, I have to be grows out of, I am a different, it's the sense that I have a different brain when I'm in math. Well, my brain is different, and so I have to act accordingly. I think that the thing that you just said that resonates the most is this notion. Of code sharing. Code sharing is exhausting. It's being different people. It's why I, you can't find me ever lying, okay? It's a terrible thing to have a marriage where you don't lie. I bite my tongue sometimes, but most often. I just say it, I, I don't lie. I never have to think about what I said or what I didn't say. Um, and that's why I have to apologize so much because Yeah. You know, I did say that that's right. And that was probably pretty stupid, you know? But I just think that, we know how to significantly improve the teaching and learning of mathematics in this country. I you talk about it. I talk about it. We've seen it in classes and nothing drives me crazier than how hard it is to bring that to scale.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:05

when you say, we know, what is it? What do we know?

Steve Leinwand 7:09

We know that every single school and school district has to have a clear vision of the teaching and learning of mathematics. It has to be written. It's probably two pages. It not just says what we are doing, but it says we're doing this in order to achieve these ends. These goals, and therefore we are not gonna do. So, in fact, a vision says that if you are talking for more than five minutes, you are probably practicing inappropriate behavior. If you are giving kids worksheets that have any more than four problems at a time before kids get feedback. Um, if you are not giving kids to talk and turn and talk to each other and share those answers, if you're not doing a formative assessment to sort of do the hard lifting of, did the kids learn what I wanted them to learn? I mean, I'm in a hundred classrooms or more every single year and, and this year it's, it's been down some, so I think I've only been in like 60 separate classrooms. Kindergarten through 12th grade. I've seen four. Four formative assessments. I mean, that's just malpractice. And so, and, and then I blame principals who really, you know, are afraid to make any kinds of changes. And then I blame the, um, the chairman of the Board of Education whose only interest is protecting the privilege of her own kid. I mean, it's, it's a sick system. And so I just, I've, I've seen so much of it. I'm so frustrated. But the flip side is I can take you to any number of places that ignore all that stuff and are serving kids magnificently. I mean, I'm so honored to have worked with the Success Academy Charter Schools in New York City, 95% black or brown kids. They're the highest performing school district in New York State. They outperformed Scarsdale and Chappaqua, and Bronxville and all those places. How? They have a clear vision. They implement the vision. The principals are never in their offices. They're in classrooms. They're in meetings. They are coaching teachers. They're help helping with teachers. They are encouraging teachers to visit each other's classrooms and learn from each other. There is a coherent curriculum. There is alignment. Like in Singapore, between what is taught, how is it taught, and the assessments. I mean, we know how to do it. And we've written about it. We've talked about it. I mean, these are discussions that I've had with Dan Meyer and with Joe Boaler and with Phil Darrow. The real people that we have to look up to, those are, those are the people whose shoulders I stand upon and, and none of us have found the key to it. And that's what motivates me still.

How do we assess that students actually learned?

Vanessa Vakharia 9:28

Okay. My first question, just in case,'cause I want us to all be on the same language. I wanted to find a couple of things. We've talked about. We've talked about code switching and I wanna say I wanted to find my terms like a good mathematician. That is when you switch to a different set of traits, personalities, you might dress different, you might talk different to be in a different environment. And it is well documented that a lot of people feel like they have to do that in math spaces, right? They have to dress professionally, they have to speak academically. As an example. Steve also brought up formative assessment, and just in case, can you just briefly wink, wink, define formative assessment for us formative versus summative? Give us a quickie.

Steve Leinwand 10:07

if we just look at, at, the research and all the, people who have talked about formative assessment, it is the one tool that allows us to answer the question, to what degree did my students learn what I set out to teach them today. I believe that math has to be 60 minutes. I think that the 42 minutes and the 47 minutes is again, totally destructive. I need an hour so that with five minutes to go, in every class I ever teach, I smile and say, awesome. Five minutes to go. Let's go pencil, pencils down, close your computer. Turn to tell your partner what you learned today. I start with metacognition. I start with that wonderful question. I model that in all the demonstration classes I do. Teachers mouths go. I can't believe what the kids, one kid says something really important. Some kid says a crazy thing. One kid sort of says, I learned today that you don't wear a tie when you come in this room and you just go, yes. So the kid that has, ADHD is able to talk about it as much as the kid who like is 10 steps ahead of everybody else. That takes two minutes. Did, did. Nice. Nice, nice. Good, good. Let's see if you really did learn it. Then we have one quick problem, one task. That is artfully chosen not to be too hard, not to be the simplest, easiest thing, but then I'm able to sit there and say, oh, cool, you know, one of the most amazing lessons I ever watched someone teach, ended with a really cool formative assessment that so drove the next day's lesson.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:34

What was it? Tell me what it was.

Steve Leinwand 11:36

Oh, it was, um, here are three equations with expressions that may or may not be equivalent. And that question is if they're equivalent, explain why. If they're not equivalent, fix it. in three questions done in about four minutes, we knew that 16 of 19 kids got it. They just got it and, and others didn't. You know, and again, this is, this is an example from Success Academy where they just managed to, to do all the right things over and over again. But then again, you know, Success Academy schools, you know, the ones that I hang out in, um, certainly the middle schools start at um, eight o'clock. And from eight o'clock to nine o'clock, the kids are doing dance movement, drama, chess, debate. no one gets that late because they don't wanna miss the most important part of the day. Right. And they're not being codesharing. All they do is they say, look, look what I did with dance and movement and energy and all that stuff and focusing, or, no, I did chess and I learned this move and oh my God, wait a second, I screwed up, moving that pawn was really dumb. And there, go now, the rest of the day is easy compared to that. We know how to do things a whole lot better than we do.

Why's it so hard to fix math education?

Vanessa Vakharia 12:41

Yeah. Well, and I, okay, so I love what you said there, and I, I'm, I'm even thinking like, imagine what you're describing here is like, yes, you're describing movement and things that might seem a little less transactional, but in doing that, they're literally practicing the skills that we wanna see in math class, making mistakes, collaborating, right? Like, so it's like now you've kind of framed the day with that in mind and in your body, and then you bring that same attitude to math class. So I love that. You mentioned earlier, you said, we know what we're what to do, but only, you know, in the, in the 60 schools, you are in only four schools were doing it. For, for example, even this idea of formative assessment. What is, why, so like, this might seem like a weird question or like simplistic or maybe way too large, but like if we know what to do, what is the reason in your opinion that we're not doing it?

Steve Leinwand 13:27

I think there are a whole lot of reasons. More and more I think that the tests drive us towards a bunch of mindless, multiple choice recall and not thinking. I think our pedagogy and sharing the power with kids is very hard for a lot of teachers to do. You lose control when you ask kids why, how do you know? Turn and talk to each other. And if you don't have classroom management, you don't have discipline, it can destroy things very quickly because the kids see as an opportunity to just screw off. I think that the biggest reason is that we just have a terrible, terrible system of professional development. I mean, we run people through these things after school, they, they bring Vanessa in, they bring Steve in for what? I don't do anymore. I, I just don't do the, the, the one day, one shot kinds of things. Because it has no impact except on the same people who are already doing most of it. Um, and they get, they get validated, that's all. So that's great. But, we don't have a mechanism to use videotape in our department meetings, in our PLCs, in our faculty meetings. I know some amazing elementary principals who ask teachers to videotape some of their work on their iPad and then use it in a faculty. It's their kids. And look what they're doing. And, and when you sit there without this sense of I am, um, embarrassed or all, and, and in every school I've ever seen people do it, they all go, oh my God, you got such guts that, I can't believe you did that. And so they get all kinds of, of wonderful feedback. And the classroom visits. You know, I mean, this is not just an NF one, but I was in a school doing connected math sixth grade, hard stuff before the common core. Sixth grade math, connected math is as hard as it gets, and this kid's 23 years old and it's January, and he is teaching like a master teacher, and I'm going, what the hell? Who's a first year teacher doing connected math and always says, oh, it's easy. He says, I was having so much trouble the first two weeks of school that my principal says, well, you know what? We are gonna take your first period and take your study hall and you're gonna go co-teach with Lisa. Lisa's been teaching connected math for a bunch of years. Lisa is great. He co-teaches first period. I mean, that's the best professional development you can have. He's there, they're co-teaching. She's helping him, he's learning it, and by the time he gets to second period, he's got his own class. He's a different human being. So in other words, we really do have answers. Now, you can't do all of them, but I marvel at how little time and effort goes into that kind of stuff. Although you got to college, you got into teaching degree. Alright, you're all set. Go do it. It's absurd.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:57

Yeah, if a leader is listening to this right now and they're like, fuck yeah, I know that this one and done PD isn't working, like I don't really know where to even start. What advice would you have for them? Like, what is a first step they could take to creating a better professional

Steve Leinwand 16:10

Build a coherent system of every teacher visits another teacher at least once every other week. That when you have music or art or we have a free period, that's it. I mean, there's no such thing as a free period. Okay? Make it Friday. I don't care. Okay. No one can tell me when not to go into a classroom. The school is, doesn't have moats around it. Nobody owns their classroom. I mean, again, you know that I am not a nice person. When I'm in a school and the principal says, oh, we're so happy. This happens all the time. The principal says, I'm so happy to hear you know that you're gonna see, you know, the math department. He says, there are nine teachers. He says, listen, we'd prefer that you not go into rooms 201 and 107. I said, oh, okay. I understand that. You know where I go first? I go right to room 1 0 7, I knock on the door and the teacher going, no, I don't think you're supposed to be here. I said, you're teaching math, right? What good am I if I don't see the people don't want me to be in the room? They're so scared. I need to see that to see what really is going on. And when that person is a sixth grade teacher in a middle school, it just screws up seventh and eighth grade. When that's the fourth grade teacher and fractions aren't done, the fifth grade teacher is screwed. And you're gonna tell me, principal, I'm not supposed to be in that room and you're gonna kowtow to that, that's absurd. So that's what I do. I, I tell those stories.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:19

What's usually happening in those rooms? Is it like, what's happening in there that they don't want you?

Steve Leinwand 17:22

It varies. It varies. Some people just don't want to, you know, they're shy, you know, and, and you get to talk. But most of the time, you know why they don't want me in the room.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:30

Right.

Steve Leinwand 17:31

It's, it's mediocre stuff. So I think that that's number one. And number two, um, is the use of video. People can't do what they can't envision. And I ask you, so how do we help teachers that we know care about kids, actually do know some math. How do we help them envision? And we don't use video anywhere near to the degree that we should. So those are,

Vanessa Vakharia 17:51

So who should we be videoing? We should be videoing ourselves? Who are we videoing? Tell me how to use the video.

Steve Leinwand 17:57

I, If I come in and do a demonstration class, by definition you're gonna video it so that we can tear it to shreds.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:02

Okay. And this is actually advice we've always thought about our band. We're always like, we should be videoing our performances. Like hockey player, like sports, they, that's what they do, they video their performances

Steve Leinwand 18:12

We wanna talk about the NFL or the major league baseball. I mean, the use of video and the, um, coaching. You know, these guys are making$17 million a year, and they have four coaches, including a life coach, and a mental coach, and a nutrition coach, and a physical coach. I mean, and, and we sit there and go, oh yeah, well we just teach, you know, we, we're not making 17.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:30

Right?

Steve Leinwand 18:31

We're the ones who need to be coached.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:33

Yeah. You know what, I, what I love that you just actually gave everyone listening by the way. You just gave all of our listeners a free professional development plan. It's free. The teachers are in your school, the coaches, the mentors, the whatever are in your school. So literally, if you're listening to this and you're like, fuck our grant this, our budget that, like, whatever. It's like, but it's all in there. Like I love, I love this solution.

Steve Leinwand 18:55

So you know what I say to coaches, Vanessa. When, when they're fighting the budget cuts and, well, the coaches aren't important. I go, so I just watched Robin. I want you to see Robin's interaction with the kids and the teachers. When I'm in a school with a coach who makes a difference, you cannot walk down the hall without that person being interrupted every third door. Oh, thanks Robin. Oh my God, that stuff, it really worked. I hope you go back to my classroom and see it. These people have value because of what they deliver and the ideas they have. And then, when you walk into a classroom with Robin, so I walk into a third grade classroom with, with Robin, and the kids just go, oh, Miss Robin is here. They know. They know that what's gonna happen in that room is gonna touch their brains. When you see that, I want people to recognize, shouldn't that be available in reading language arts and in mathematics in every school? How hard is it to have one person for two elementary schools and spend two and a half days in each, or more likely two days in one, two days in the other? And I believe that all the coaches get together on Friday when no one wants to be coached and they use video to hone their craft. That's what they do. I mean, you know. Yeah. It's like, here's a lesson. This is a lesson I saw, you know, Max teach yesterday in algebra one. Um, this class was perfect. It was perfect in the sense of there was some wonderful stuff and some awful stuff. Okay. How, what do you do as a coach? I mean, that's the kind of professional development the coaches need to have. So, so again, what's really neat, when you have been in thousands of math classrooms, over the last 50 years, I just feel like I have a responsibility to sort of write about it, to talk about it, to sort of share some of that stuff. And I've learned to do it without anger. I've learned to do it, with opportunities.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:41

Let me ask you this, because, you know, we are on a podcast called Math Therapy and my work, as you know, is around math, trauma, and anxiety. And you've said some very useful things like the idea of formative assessment, the idea of coaching, the idea of mentorship. And what I'm wondering is if you were to pick a move or something you've seen in classrooms that has the ability to either exacerbate math anxiety or mitigate it, what would that be?

Steve Leinwand 21:04

I think that what I love most is, turn and tell your partner.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:10

Hmm.

Steve Leinwand 21:11

I think that there's just not enough of that. You turn and talk your partner, then we switch partners, you know, every other week or something like that. Um, and then all I care about is what you said or what you heard. I take the pressure off because it can be, you didn't have the idea, but your partner did and, now you have to articulate it. But I think that shuts us up and it gives us some sense of, of what's going, going on. So, I am watching a class where the question on the board was, are they equivalent or not? Six times five and then four plus two, parentheses, times five.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:55

Okay,

Steve Leinwand 21:55

Wonderful. Nice, simple thing. Turn and tell your partner. Are they equivalent or are they not? Of course. Good. Raise your hand if you, pardon your partner. Agree that they are equivalent. Hands. Go up. Raise your hands if you and your partner disagree. Couple hands go up. Raise your hand if you and your partner both disagreed. I go, oh, awesome. So convince me that they're not equivalent. If I don't ask the kids that, I miss out for the rest of my teaching career on this notion that, english,"equivalent", the same. So one has four plus two, the other has six. They're not the same. In math,"equivalent" means the same value, so who's right how we do that? If I don't catch that in sixth grade? Kids are screwed for a long time. Um, and so it's, it's that kind of listen to the kids that I just think is, is what's so important. You know, I go back to Principles to Actions and so I see the goals. It's in the book.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:54

Wait, what is Principles, can you just tell us what is Principles to Actions for those

Steve Leinwand 22:57

actions is the NCTM book that came out in 20 15. NCTM basically lost real credibility and ground because its standards were trashed. And the common core came along in the United States and everything was Common Core, Common Core. And NCTM realized that it was being marginalized. And so I had a discussion with somebody, and we said that we need to put ourselves back on the map. We are the National Council of Teachers of Mathematics, and one of the highlights of my whole professional career was working with an amazing, amazing team of, of writers and planners and smart people, and, and we churned out Principles to Actions, which all these years later is still the go-to place, it's the most cited research piece or NCTM piece. Um, it's sold more than anything else that NCTM has ever done except the original standards, I think. What it says is all it takes for us to have high quality instruction is a clarity of your goals. Often not the case, but they're there, they're stolen. Tasks that promote reasoning and thinking. Hmm, sometimes, sometimes not. I can't tell you how many classes I'm in that we've won those. I mean, people have got a sense of the goal. They deal with the materials, they've got reasonable tasks. The difference between effective and medium so effective is the questions we ask, the representations we use and the discourse that we inspire. And, and so you know what you say,

Vanessa Vakharia 24:18

Wait, are these five different principles?

Steve Leinwand 24:20

Those are the first five. Then there's also okay, struggle, fluency, and in, uh, evidence. Okay? But, but I need those out for right now because, you know, I can't worry about them if in fact there's nothing to measure because you didn't ask questions, you didn't engage kids

Vanessa Vakharia 24:34

didn't ask the questions.

Steve Leinwand 24:35

Simply great tasks isn't enough. So I mean, all these years later, that's still a guiding force. I mean, NCSM members, the coaches use that stuff all over the time. And then NCTM upgraded it into equitable teaching practices by adding some some layers to it. But that stuff is just really exciting and it's the stuff that makes me incredibly, incredibly proud.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:58

So tell me the difference between, you said, you know, I, I asked the question, what can either, what can mitigate math, anxiety, you know, what is the thing, and you said turn and talk, asking this very rich question. What is the difference between the turn and talk and the teacher simply putting those two equivalencies or non equivalencies on the board and asking students to answer the teacher versus taking the time to turn and talk.

Steve Leinwand 25:21

When you ask the whole classic question, you know, half the kids just shut their brain down. They don't have it. I don't care. I don't have to do anything. Why work? I mean, it just, there's no incentive to even think about it for, for half the kids and the kids that know the answer already or you know, are, you know, a way ahead, you know, they scream it out and they don't explain how, because we don't ask, how did you get that? What's really important is the differentiation. It's the most important word, the most underplayed word is differentiation, which doesn't mean doing things differently. Differentiation to me says, you've got 20 brains in your class. Anytime they're trying to learn something, two things are going on. You've got four or five different ways that the mathematics is being processed and you've got four or five different ways that the mathematics is being pictured. When I ask teachers or when I ask kids, how much is, five plus negative nine? And it's amazing. This happened just the other day and it's amazing how many people just sit there and say, well, I subtract the two, and I just adapt a sign. You know? It's like, well wait, why? I don't know. It's, it works. And I said, well, who did it differently? And, and one person says, you know, the quarterback gained five yards of first play, lost nine on the second play, and therefore was four yards behind scrimmage. And, and I said, so how do you, well, I just, the way I do all my sign numbers, another person does it on a vertical number line, because in every class there are two kids for whom a horizontal number line doesn't make sense. The vertical number line is what they can do, and then the the brain fits in. I don't understand all that why that happens. I just accept the fact that there are different brains. We limit math anxiety when we honor the fact that you have this obvious reality of different ways to picture it, different ways to process it. So that to me is, is why differentiation is this term bandied around, you know, I'm not nice. I mean, you know, when, when I hear, I mean, I tell teachers that when they get an evaluation, their principal has said, oh, you are really impressive and I really love coming to your class. But, you know, you know, the, the, the word of the, of the year they went to an ASCD meeting or, or they, um, you know, got, got the word in the, from the assistant superintendent that doesn't understand it either, that we need to do more differentiation here. So it says it on the evaluation. It would help if you did a little more differentiation. I tell teachers, you have a responsibility to go down to that evaluator, go down to your principal, go down to your assistant principal, and thank them profusely for suggesting that you need to focus more on differentiation. How about if you come down to my class tomorrow and show me what it means?

Vanessa Vakharia 27:45

Talk to the teacher right now who's listening to this and is like, differentiation, yes, I think I know what it means, but how do I actually do it?'Cause in a way, you were like, it's honoring the fact that we have 20 different brains or whatever amount of brains.

Steve Leinwand 27:56

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:56

So is it giving students opportunities to like show their work in different ways? Is it teaching it in different ways?

Steve Leinwand 28:01

So sometimes I am actually suggesting these other ways, other times I'm waiting for the kids to supply them.

Vanessa Vakharia 28:07

You know what I'm thinking of what the kids are saying right now, which is, it's not that deep. It actually, we don't actually have to make it complicated. It's just what you fucking said. It's respect, the fact that there are different ways of knowing, gives students opportunities to learn and express in those ways. The end.

Steve says something very nice about Vanessa

Steve Leinwand 28:21

I, I need to, before you get to your last two questions. So you were very kind in the introduction. When you called yesterday and texted and said, would you do this? So we did talk last time, okay, I have not watched you do a whole session, but you are an incredibly interesting person, your Math Therapy stuff. And so I have, as my dominant approach to our business at 77 years of age, is mentoring. I spend immense amounts of time absolutely in joy as I do Zoom talks with supervisors, with coaches, pick Steve's brain, I do with state supervisors. And so immediately yesterday I said, oh my God. A chance to take this amazingly creative, interesting person and to get to know her better. And so it really is mutual. And I wanna thank you for taking the lead in this. I've really enjoyed this immensely, and this is just the start of what I think will be a really cool friendship.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:26

Oh my God. I'm gonna cry on the pod. That is so nice and like you are, I mean that, thank you. Thank you. You are, you, you are. Honestly, you are an icon. And I mean, guys, Steve just turned 77. I know what you're all thinking right now. He is a Pisces. Tune in next episode when I read his birth chart. Um, it really is an honor. I respect you so much, so, I know everyone else does, but for me, like you are someone I really, really look up to and I'm glad you took the time.

Steve Leinwand 29:54

All right, enough of this stuff. Question. Every one of these with two questions. Number one.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 29:59

Okay, here we go. Final two questions, and you gotta make a brief. Under 60 seconds. If there was one thing you would change about the way math is taught in schools, you can pick one thing. What is it?

Steve Leinwand 30:09

Oh, it would be differentiation It, it would be recognized that almost everything has more than one right way and gets pictured in different ways. That's the way in which we undo some of the math anxiety. That's the way we help kids learn. There is no way that the one right way can serve all kids. Question two.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 30:26

Holy shit. Okay, question number two. Someone's listening to this, they're like, oh man. Like I love what Steve was saying and like, yeah, I'm gonna try some of this stuff. But the thing is like, I don't know if it's gonna really work because you know, I'm just not a math person and some of my students just aren't math people. What do you say?

Steve Leinwand 30:42

Partner up. The fact is that the single greatest obstacle to any of these things that we haven't talked about is the professional isolation of the professional. Uh, we just don't have mechanisms in most schools for people to share and people to collaborate. One of the things at Success Academy, one of the things that some of the most amazing high schools I've ever been in, in some of the public schools, some of the private schools, some of the urban schools is, is there is a team of six high school math teachers that collaborate and that, and that work together. And so, what I think has to be done is break down the isolation. Find a new friend, visit a class, invite someone into your class, go out and have a beer with that person. All the things that business people do all the time to help them get better.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:26

Hmm. And you know, it's funny, it's like partner up, we, we want our students to do that, right? Like, we wanna form these like, you know, random groups or whatever. We want students to collaborate and we often. Isolate ourselves, right? Like we don't feel like we, so I think that's a really, really, really cool concept of the idea of not feeling like a quote unquote math person is often about isolation. And these thoughts you're ruminating on.

Steve Leinwand 31:47

So it's one of the reasons why the building thinking classrooms and all of Peter's work has just been so important. The fact that you have these random groups and kids working three at a time or four at a time at a non-permanent vertical white space, white, whatever it is, Um, it's, it's, you ask the kids and they go, it's safe. We write it out. You know, we, we don't have that same pressure. Okay, we can learn from each other. It's like what took us so long to recognize that? And then, you know, I tease Peter and everyone else that in fact it's the, um, consolidation of learning that is far and away the hardest of all of his 14 practices. And it's the one that gets the least attention. And Peter and I go back and forth with Yeah, that's right. And what do we do about it? And all that stuff. I mean, I just think it's great we have a, um, an on-ramp to those things. Give kids cards, have'em in different groups, have'em working together, put part of the lesson, having them collaborate, having them share, doing gallery walks and all that kind of stuff. But, but the next step is, yeah, but how do you turn all that stuff into real learning, as opposed to just good teaching.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:49

Well, and also as you're talking, I'm like, why aren't we doing that for ourselves as professionals? Gallery walks, all this stuff. This goes to you being like, let's use videos. Like, let's like, oh my God. So what I'm hearing, how we're ending this, is a call out to Peter Lial to write a BTC for teachers. You heard it from me and Steve, Peter. Do it.

Steve Leinwand 33:08

That'd be really cool. It'd be fun. I mean, I, I'd love to get

Vanessa Vakharia 33:11

Right, like a professional learning. Okay. Steve, I think we have a lot of power, you and I, a Pisces and a Gemini. I think people are, I mean, thousands of people are gonna listen to this episode, and now Peter has a lot of work to do. Great. Thank you so much for being,

Steve Leinwand 33:24

This has been a delight.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:26

A delight. I, I'm so glad we fought. Mercury, nice try. Okay, let's, we're gonna say goodbye. Don't go anywhere, but have a great time on the trail. Thank you. We are now gonna take a selfie. Dave, I'm not, I'm not saying bye to him. I'm not doing it. Just set up the, just can you set up the, the windows. So we're both on here. Okay guys, can someone please text the podcast right now and tell me what just happened? Because quite frankly, I still have no fucking clue. All I know is that I feel fired up and ready to be like, no, for real guys, things need to change. We cannot keep doing what we're doing. Steve covered so many bases and yes, that is a baseball reference, and yes, the Blue Jays home opener was last week, and yes, I now know what that is. And yes, I'm still a fan. But for real, he covered so many bases showcasing how many different areas of education need a makeover. And I want to know which one resonated most with you. So text the podcast by hitting the link in your show notes, DM me on Instagram or shoot me an email. And if something in this episode made you think, huh, so and so really should hear this, then send them a link to this episode right now. Once again, you should know that Math Therapy is produced by the one and only David Kochberg, who is in my band called Goodnight Sunrise, and my band's music is what you're listening to right now. And me, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, I am your host, and I will see you guys next week, same date, same channel, same unhinged chaos.

Steve Leinwand 34:59

You can cut it out if you want, but I mean, people need to understand that, I mean, for the last 45 minutes, I am looking at myself, um, I am looking at you, and then I've got this third picture of you sort of, eating somebody's ear. I mean this Goodnight Sunrise has been on the screen and it's like, wait a second, I mean, do you know what distraction goes on here? And I'm supposed to think about math and this guy is looking like, is she kissing me? Is she biting me? Is she touching my ear? It's so great. It's

Vanessa Vakharia 35:29

Why has he had that on his screen?

Steve Leinwand 35:31

Oh, it's great. Thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:32

I don't have that, Steve. Like

Steve Leinwand 35:34

It's, David.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:34

I'm so sorry,

Steve Leinwand 35:35

David. I was, David put it on his, he put it on his screen and um, it's just, it's just, it's what makes you who you are and I love it.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:42

Oh my God. Okay, well, just so you know, in the picture, I'm actually licking David's face

Steve Leinwand 35:46

Even worse,

Vanessa Vakharia 35:47

but, but people have said it looks like I'm biting his ear. It was our album cover for our last album. You should check go to our band. David, can you set this up?