Mailbag - reading your texts

Vanessa Vakharia 0:04

Okay guys, it is Vanessa and we are here for another week of Math Therapy. And let me tell you, we are legitimately doing something we have never done before. Okay, if you are a long time listener, or if you literally have only listened to one episode, you will know that I will not shut up about texting the podcast. I'm always like, oh my God, text the podcast this. Oh my God. Share this episode with a friend and then text the podcast and send me a message and text the podcast and text the podcast if you think this, and text the podcast if you want another guest. And like I'm obsessed with you guys texting the podcast. And let me tell you that today, this is finally going to pay off. Because guess what? A bunch of you have been texting the podcast since this feature was introduced, like three months ago, and now I have a bunch of texts from you. And today we are going to do a mailbag episode where I read out some of these incredible texts and I respond to them in real time, live on the podcast. Before I continue, I actually have a ton of these texts. So I'm only gonna do a few of them today. I'm gonna do a few of them another day. But I actually have to tell you that now not only can you text the podcast, you can do my favorite fucking thing, which is you can send the podcast a voice note. Sorry, I got so excited there. I couldn't even say it. You can send us a voice note. So now when you go to the your app or wherever you're listening right now, there will be like a thing that says like, send us a text or send us a message. I don't know what it says. You can click on that and you can now either send us a text or you can send us a voice note. Final thing I'm gonna say, I know that many of you are probably like, I sent a text a million years ago. What happened to it? We can't respond to the text. We can only see the text. But in addition to the voice note feature, we can now respond to your text. I'm not actually saying we're going to respond to your text. We might never respond to your text, but we are getting them and maybe we'll respond to them live. I'm gonna stop now, but I will say one other thing. I also want you to be able to text or voice note the podcast without the pressure of being like, oh my God, she's gonna play this live. If you do not want me to like say your text out loud or play your voice note live, just say so in your text or voice note. I'm done. Are

#1: problems w/ labels like "gifted"

Vanessa Vakharia 2:06

we ready for text number one? All the way from Phoenix, Arizona. Anonymous, no name. I was slash am a gifted learner and was placed in a gifted class. I was always so afraid in math. I was put with kids a year older and always felt like I didn't belong. I could not memorize my facts and remember being in high school, counting on my fingers. So even though I was labeled gifted, it was a huge struggle for me. Now as a teacher who has taught kinder, then fourth math for 10 years before moving to a position where I see multiple grades and teach eighth grade algebra, now I see how these kids' perceptions of what they can do has changed so much between kinder to eighth. I just would love to know your thoughts on gifted programs and placements and supporting even these gifted kids who the world labels as high potential and neglects to see that they too struggle and in my experience, need Math Therapy the most. Okay. First of all, whoever sent this text, I am so with you. Okay. This one is actually really, really, interesting. Because I always say that one of the major causes of math trauma is actually simply being labeled. It doesn't matter what you're labeled, right? It doesn't matter if the labeled is quote unquote, a good label or quote unquote, a bad label. When we are labeled, all of a sudden we are put into a box. And whether it's a box we are willingly walking into or a box that we are unwillingly enclosed in, it is still a box. A box is limiting. A box has walls, a box is a certain size. So anytime we suddenly feel like we no longer fit that box that we have been put into, it causes some sort of crisis of identity. It causes us to feel like we don't belong and this happens so often with the gifted label. There's actually a lot of research right now from kids who were once labeled as gifted. I will admit, I actually was in a gifted program for grade seven and eight. There's a lot of research showing that these kids will say, it was one of the worst things that happened to me. What does gifted mean? What does it mean? Think about it. Being gifted is supposed to imply that you have a gift. Not that you've developed or like earned or conjured this gift, but you have been born with this gift. You are this like smart, above intelligent person of some sort. So what happens is, when kids feel like they're not living up to the gift or they start struggling in math class, instead of feeling like, oh, this is just like struggle, like, oh, this is just like a mistake I made a year ago, oh, this is just another challenge, they often feel like, oh shit. I guess I've lost the gift. The gift has expired. It's over. My time is done. Because giftedness implies innateness. It implies nature over nurture. And, and this happens a lot. You will see this with kids who are the quote unquote smart kid or who haven't struggled in math traditionally, and then suddenly they hit a concept or a grade where they struggle, all of a sudden, because they haven't been taught intelligence or math ability are things that are built and they can construct and they can continue to evolve, they start thinking, I've lost it. My time is done. I'm only smart up to a certain level, and I'm not meant to exceed that level. To me, the gifted label actually imposes on kids a whole other level of imposter syndrome because now you're being told you are supposed to not need support in math, you're supposed to be more mathematically capable than your peers that are not in that classroom. So now when you struggle or you face a challenge, now you're an imposter not only to mathematics, but to the gifted population, right? Like you're like now, I'm not only an imposter in math class, I'm an imposter in this gifted class. I'm an imposter to mathematics and to giftedness. Just because someone looks like they've got it all together, it doesn't mean they're not falling apart inside. And just because a kid is getting a good grade, it doesn't mean they actually understand the concepts. Often you can get a good grade just by following patterns and formulas and mimicking a procedure and not conceptually understanding. Just like all of that. Just because a kid is labeled gifted, or getting a good grade, or is labeled, quote, I'm using air quotes a lot here, smart, it doesn't mean that they're not struggling. It doesn't mean that they're not anxious. It doesn't mean that their identity is not in need of repair. So thank you so much for sending that in. It is something we don't talk about enough and I'm really, really glad you brought it up.

#2: from loathing to loving math

Vanessa Vakharia 6:28

Okay. Onto text number two. Hi, my name is Juliette and I'm an educator in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I recently found and love your podcast. I have a like mindset and take a similar educational approach with my students. My teaching journey has led me from tolerating math to honestly falling in love with it. I've worked in elementary, middle school, and I'm starting as a high school math teacher this January. Your podcast has pumped me up. Thank you for the work you're doing. Ugh. I mean, I love to hear it. Juliet, thank you so much for sending this in because this is exactly what I mean when I say we can all build better, healthier, happier relationships with math. Our relationship with math is not fixed, and I love that you pointed out that you went from tolerating it to loving it, right? That is what an identity shift is all about. When we talk about building healthier math identities, we are talking not only about the person who goes from hating math to tolerating math right, from the person who goes from hating math to at least giving math a try. That, by the way, is a very important identity shift, but when we can then take that next leap from tolerating math to loving it, that is a really beautiful thing. And Juliet, thank you for reminding us all that. It is possible, and it's possible because you didn't just become a different person. You had a different experience of math that led you to becoming who you are today. Okay, so

#3: neuroplasticity through life

Vanessa Vakharia 7:50

we are moving on to text number three. And I'd like to point out, we just went from like the, I'm gifted, but I'm still struggling and moved on to a big identity piece of like, I used to hate math and now I love it. And now I wanna dig a little into a couple of texts that point to what's underneath all that. And we are gonna go over to a text from my hometown, Toronto, Ontario. Okay. Finally, catching up on my to-do list listen. I think the nature versus nurture debate for being a math person or a music person or a memory person is a false dichotomy. I'm no brain scientist, but since there's no math gene, all got to be brain-based, right? So if neuroplasticity is at such a peak in childhood and adolescence, students can build math identity and ability at those stages of life really easily. Adults can still train their brains, but they're a bit less flexible. So back it up into infancy and into the womb, and it's all about neurons and brain connections. It's all neuroplasticity at every stage, and at some stages we have more of it and others we have less of it, but it's all the same mechanism. That's what makes sense to me anyway. Okay, so here's what I'm thinking with this one. I love that this person actually said, I'm no brain scientist, right in their text. Because guess what? Neither am I. I think this was in response to my interview with Dr. Sarah McKay, which was called what neuroscience actually says about gender and math. So I would actually go back to that episode, and listen to it again because Dr. Sarah McKay is a neuroscientist and she addresses a lot of this. I think what I'd wanna zoom out a bit on this, is this. Yes, we're talking about neuroplasticity and we're talking about brain wiring and such, but what we're really talking about and what you're talking about in this text, mysterious Toronto author, is that experience and emotion and identity all merge together and play a role in not only our math ability, but in the way we end up feeling about math, right? Two kids can be born with similar brain potentials and they might have completely different math identities depending on the experience they have with math. So yes, it is brain-based and it's brain-based, because we're talking about neuroplasticity, we're talking about things happening in the brain with regards to learning, but. I think we have to be very careful with the mechanism by which that takes place. I don't think, I mean, I definitely don't know what it is, that's why I talk to experts about how it works. But I think the key takeaway is go listen to that episode with Dr. Sarah McKay because she really addresses in their how much of math ability has to do with genetics, like how much it has to do with the brain you're born with, and how much of it has to do with like yes, like things are happening in your brain, but those things are malleable depending on the experiences you have. It's a nurture versus nature argument. And I don't even wanna say argument. It's a nurture versus nature discussion. So yes, brain base as in things are happening in our brain, but really experience and emotion and identity shapes so much of what our math ability turns out becoming, how it manifests in reality.

#4: how students show their thinking

Vanessa Vakharia 10:57

Okay. Let's move on to another text from Toronto, Ontario. I'm not being biased, I swear these ones were just very juicy. One important idea for showing your thinking is that kids often can't explain their thinking or show their steps because math is so naturally human and kids are natural mathematicians who've been sold a story that math is something out there with steps and symbols that must be memorized. The math itself is intuitive and kids can demonstrate pretty sophisticated algebraic reasoning skills if approached visually instead of symbolically. So instead of saying that they need to learn how to show their thinking or explain their steps, I tell my students that they have to learn the arbitrary symbolic representations that people have assigned to the great mathematical thinking that they already know how to do. The math is in them. It's a natural way that humans make sense of their world. They just need to learn to listen to themselves first and fit the notation and symbols to it later. Honestly, this is a really, really interesting take and I think probably many of us would agree. There's been a lot of conversation around getting kids to think. I think that actually, there's two ways I wanna talk about this. The first is there's so much discourse right now around being like, kids are not thinking, they haven't been thinking, oh my God, like we have suddenly realized they've never thought a single thought, they've just been copying down every single thing happening in math class. And, I think we are just being a little bit too extra with that. And what I hear in this text is this idea of like, kids are thinking just because they can't show their thinking, it does not mean that they are not thinking. So I think that's the first thing I wanna say is like, yeah, I think a lot of kids, I mean, I think, I think there are some kids and adults and who and learners period who like, are maybe doing a little mimicking and following procedures and don't necessarily fully conceptually understand every mathematical concept. I think there are a lot of people who conceptually understand it, but cannot explain it to someone else or show their thought process. Doesn't mean they're not thinking. Now this, because we did an entire episode about showing your thinking, and that's definitely what this is in response to. And I, the second piece of this argument is not only are a lot of kids thinking, but when they can't show their thinking, it's A, not because they're not thinking, but B, because sh they don't know how to show their thinking and the way we want them to see it. Right? This writer is talking about using the specific notation in which we're asking them to show their thinking. And I think this is a really interesting point, like they're saying here that what they say there's to their students is, Hey, I know you're thinking. You just need to learn the arbitrary symbolic representations that people have assigned to the great mathematical thinking that you know. That's what I'm here to teach you. I'm not teaching you how to think you've already got this. You're awesome. You know how to think. I'm gonna show you this like code with which to demonstrate to the rest of the world that you understand this concept. I have to think about this. I mean, I think it's, I think it's, yes. I think there is a bit of that for sure. And I actually kind of like that approach in the sense that you're empowering them and being like, I already know that you know how to think about this thing. I'm gonna give you some tools that I want you to show me your thinking with. But I also think it's about the confidence, for kids to be like, yeah, whatever way you're thinking about this, whatever way you got the answered, I respect that. You don't have to worry that what's gonna come outta your mouth is something I don't want to hear. So I actually think there's two pieces here. Like I like that approach of being like, I believe that you know what you're doing and I'm gonna show you this notation with which to show me. But the thing I like most about that piece is the confidence you're giving the student. To be like, I know you know what you're doing. Sometimes it's hard to explain the things we already intuitively know, like that's hard for us. And you know, I talked about this in an episode with Cat and Nat, the two moms, which was very controversial because they were talking about how they hate algebra, cause they hate the letters, they were like talking about how they can't can't stand the X and the Y. And I was talking about how when I taught algebra, I would always introduce it to kids with emojis. Like I'd be like two heart plus, three star equals, actually, you can't do that. That's like apples and oranges. Okay. But like, you know what I mean? Like I'd be, I would do stuff like that. I'd be like, I like, like I would do it to collect like terms honestly. So it's like two heart plus, three star plus four hearts, plus two stars. So that would be six hearts. Why am I doing this in my head? Why am I, but you know what I'm saying? My point is it made it so much easier for them to be gathering and collecting. Right. And I wonder if we can do something similar with showing your thinking. I wonder actually if the first step before being like, I know that you understand this and now let me teach you this notation with which to show me, I wonder if the first step, which I know many do anyways. But I wonder if that like sort of like bridge is being like, okay, I know you know you're thinking something, you don't know how to explain it. Can you explain it to me in any words you want? Using any symbols you want. And I think that is actually what a lot of educators are doing right now. Being like, you can show me your thinking in any way. You can make me a TikTok to show me your thinking. You can draw me a picture. You can like do an interpretive dance. Like, I don't know, do something to explain this concept to me in your world. And then we can move on to the like, official way fine. Like if you're doing proofs in college, you can't like show me that with an interpretive dance. Although like, honestly, I would like to see that. So yeah, I feel like the first stepping stone is giving kids the confidence. Then it's allowing them to speak to you in their language. It's their thinking. They should be allowed to use their language and then we can move on to like, let's show you how to do it officially. Okay, so

#5: different ways to outer process thinking

Vanessa Vakharia 16:27

let's move on to text number five from Nina, from Langhorne, Pennsylvania. I love saying these. I haven't been to any of these places except for Toronto. Okay. Oh my God. We should do a podcast tour where I come to the places, guys, this is my dream, I'm actually gonna say it right now. I am manifesting a podcast tour. That would be so cool. Like. I tour with a podcast. Me and David like do shows and do interviews by day and take questions. And then we play a show with our band at night. Oh my God. Can't wait to play Langhorn, Pennsylvania. Did I say Longhorn? It's Langhorn. Okay. I started listening to the episode about showing your work as I was heading into a day of grade level meetings, discussing work samples from students. One suggestion I shared with a fourth grade team was for students to make a video on Google slide of their problem solving steps and mathematical thinking before they have to write or type it out. Then I heard your fourth strategy of outer process. Great minds think alike. Thanks for sharing, Nina. Okay, this is crazy because this is basically exactly what I just said. Nina, you rock. I first of all, Nina, if you're listening, I would love to know what happened with this idea. Are they doing it? Is your fourth grade team allowing students to make videos on Google slide of their problem solving steps? Because I love that. This is the thing. So in that episode about showing your work, I was explaining that speaking is lower pressure than writing. Right? Because like you don't have to put something down like, this is why I like the podcast and I really like, uh, writing is like, is just a lot for me. It's a commitment. You're putting words to paper. You can see the words as they come out. That being said, a lot of people love journaling. Because they feel it allows them to outer process. But honestly for most people, talking is a lot more low lift. It just, it literally is lower effort. Right? So I think there's two things here. Some people might be more comfortable just like writing it all out in a journal format, and other people like me would be more comfortable just saying it out loud, talking, making you a video, explaining it to a friend. Because when we outer process, thinking becomes visible and not only does thinking become visible to the person listening to us, it becomes visible to us. As we hear the words coming out of our mouth, often that allows our brain to process what it is thinking in real time in a real tangible way. So this goes exactly to what I said to who was it? Who was this person from? Toronto. We don't know, there's no name. But this is the same thing in whatever way a student wants to show their thinking, whatever they feel is like their clutch way to outer process that makes them feel at home and less anxious, that is the way they should be allowed to show their thinking to start. And, this actually to me, like as I'm saying this, see, I'm outer processing, I'm thinking, and I'm coming up with an idea as I'm saying this, I'm thinking, what a great exercise before, like when you start the year or like when you start next week, just sit with your class and be like, okay guys, let's do a like little, like get to know ourselves. What is each of our favorite, most comfortable way to explain how we're thinking or what is our most comfortable way, if you're having a problem and you can't figure it out what it is, and you don't know how you're feeling, what's your favorite way to figure it out? Is it to A, talk to a friend. B, curl up and write in your journal. C, start ranting about it on social media. DI don't know, some options like this, and based on what they say, turn that into an assignment of this is how you're gonna show the way you are thinking about this problem. The same way when you're in a bad mood and you can't figure out what's wrong, you would process that, do that with, this is a great assignment idea. Can you do guys, try this. Try this. Nina, thank you so much for writing in.

#6: who is Sister Beth?!

Vanessa Vakharia 20:01

Okay. We only have two left and we are now on text number six from Atlanta, Georgia. I was actually there for NCTM last year. I have no idea where this will end up, but I'll give it a shot. I'm really hoping to get a signed Math Therapy book for my son's teacher, who is that math teacher, for our whole family. Okay. I'm already gonna cry. She has completely turned my sons and my attitude around. Last year we dreaded math. We argued. I complained. You could feel the tension wherever there was a math test. In retrospect, I put so much pressure on this one class. This year, math is my son's favorite subject, and we work together to figure it out. We both talk about how far we've both come and can laugh at the drama of third grade. It has gone from impossible to figureoutable because of Sister Beth. Yep. The amazing math teacher who introduced me to your book and podcast is a nun. Thank you for everything you do, and if there's any way to get a signed book for Sister Beth, that would be amazing. Guys. Okay, so listen, there's no name. I don't know who you are, but I am praying. See what I did there, um, sorry. I honestly am praying that you are listening right now 'cause I would love to get a signed copy to Sister Beth, but I don't know how. I'm gonna be honest. What I did after I read this text is I tried to find Sister Beth online. I Googled Sister Beth Math Atlanta, Georgia. And it just, nothing that came up like seemed like it could have been her. Okay. So if anyone who knows Sister Beth is listening, if anyone who knows who the author of this text is listening, if the author of this text is listening, email me vanessa@themathguru.ca with your info and Sister Beth's info and I will mail her a signed copy. This is so cool. And what I all, guys, what I wanna highlight for everyone is, I love how you said in here she is that math teacher for our whole family and she has completely turned my son's and my attitude around. It just shows that that is Math Therapy in action. You know that math trauma really is generational and it's never too late. It's never too late to fix your relationship with math. That is honestly so cool.

#7: finding hope later in life

Vanessa Vakharia 22:02

Okay. Final text of the day, from Steve from Northern Minnesota: i'm a new listener only about five or six episodes so far. I have severe math anxiety and deep-seated math trauma for as long as I can remember. However, after reading the book Is Math Real by Eugenia Chang, and then hearing your interview with her, I feel there might be hope for me yet. I also just listened to the preview of your new book and to hear that there's no such thing as not a math person gives me very positive vibes towards math. I can't wait to read your book and share it with my daughter who has the same aptitude towards math as myself. I don't want her to have to wait until she's almost 60 like me to realize that anybody can do it. I teach at an aircraft maintenance technician school, and part of the curriculum is basic math and physics. It's painful to see some of these kids who just graduated high school and think they can't do basic math, even when it's applied to a career path they chose. Thank you for helping to destigmatize this mysterious world of mathematics. Oh my God. What a, what a perfect text to end on. Steve, honestly, first of all, the fact that you're doing this work now, that you're teaching math to these kids, that you're thinking about your daughter, that you at the age of 60 are like, I refuse for. This like math trauma to be my identity, like I want to change and know I can change and believe I can, and I'm taking the steps, is so admirable. It's so inspiring. I know there's so many people listening right now who are just like you, who are probably so inspired by you. Like I just said in response to that last text, it's never too late. It really is never too late. And the coolest thing, Steve, is, as I said before, math trauma really can be generational, right? Like it gets passed down, we can't help it. That's just what happens so often, and you are causing that generational shift. It starts with you and it's gonna trickle down towards your daughter, and it's gonna trickle down from there. And it also emanates from you. You are literally teaching kids. They are in your classroom every day, and there is no better role model than the role model who's like, listen, kids, listen, kiddos, I felt exactly like you did. I thought I couldn't do it, and here I am at the age of 60, proving myself wrong. Proving that I can change. That is so inspiring. Because the truth is, we always feel too old to change, right? Like, just think about yourself as a teenager where you're like, oh, forget it. Like it's grade nine. I've always sucked at math, it's over. You could think that then you could think that in grade seven you could be like, yeah, whatever. It's done. Like honestly, you could think that at any age, right? So. I remember like seeing this meme it's about the way you look, so it's a bit different, but it's always like, you know, it, the, the point of the meme is something along the lines of like, it's like someone looking at a picture of themselves 20 years ago and it's like, I can't actually remember what the meme is, but I think the point is, you know what I mean? It's like right now I feel like I'm really, really old. In 20 years I'm gonna look back on this time and be like, holy shit, I was so young then. How did I think I was old? Right? So like, I think that's what you're really showing, and that's what the teacher or adult who has been carrying math baggage is modeling to people in front of them is, yeah, it always feels like it's too late to change, but the truth is it never is. Every day is a great day to change. Every day is a great day to try something new. Every day is a great day to try to break through a limiting belief. Every day is a great day to rewire a neural pathway. You are literally interrupting a cycle in real time in front of people who are looking to you with their own math trauma. Math isn't about how fast you get it and you're showing them that it's about whether or not you feel that it's available to you. And the fact that you still believe it is, and I know it is, and everyone listening is cheering you on right now, the fact that you still believe it is allows you to take the steps to access what is available to you. But that has to date been inaccessible to you for so many reasons that are not your fault. So thank you so much. This is a perfect text to end on. We are so proud of you. This is so awesome. I want you to keep us posted and I want you to remember that those students struggling in your class, that's not ability. It's years of accumulated math identity. I have a, um, student, an old student, Holly Mason. I just had coffee with her last week and I'm gonna shout her out right now. And she's now becoming a math teacher. And she said, when she goes into classrooms, I loved this, she said, I always assume competence, I don't assume prior knowledge. And I was like, that is a beautiful line. Assume competence, but don't assume prior knowledge. Those are two different things. And that's what you're doing right now. Those kids who are coming to you from high school that can't do basic math, it's not a competence issue, it's a prior knowledge issue, and you are the perfect person to show them that, to heal that, to teach them that basic math and to move them along the way. So thank you so much, Steve. Oh, what was your name? Steve? Yes. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you for everyone who wrote in. Thank you guys for listening to the first Mailbag episode. It is so inspiring to be in community with you guys, to be co-creating math healing with you guys. I am just one person, and you guys are out there doing the work, so thank you. It takes a village, and you guys are part of the Math Therapy community. Please text the podcast. Send the podcast a voice note. We would love to showcase you on our next mailbag episode. And if somebody knows Sister Beth or this person from Atlanta, Georgia, I'm now obsessed with getting them assigned a book, so please help me out. All right. Until next week. Same time, same place, same channel. Peace, love and pi.

Outtake - where is Steve from?!

Vanessa Vakharia 27:26

​final text for today from Steve, from Indianapolis, Indiana, Vanessa, and David. My name is Steve from Northern Minnesota. Wait, what? No, that's confusing. That is not Indiana. Guys, I, I'm not that great at geography, but he Okay. Steve from Indianapolis. Maybe it's just, maybe it's how, why does it say that? lemme start that again.