Intro - Heidi Sabnani

Heidi Sabnani 0:03

I will still walk into spaces where I'm like, I don't know that I should be here, Someone made me feel a certain kind of way about it, but done the work, I'm here, none of us have arrived. We're all working on things. give yourself some time and space in that moment and you can do the thing. give yourself some time.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:22

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of Math Therapy. All right. I first discovered today's guest, Heidi Sabnani, at my very first international math education conference, when I saw her name on the program next to a talk description that had the words math anxiety in it. It was the first time I was like, oh my God, there are other people who care about this stuff. Well, little did I know Heidi Sabnani has cared about this stuff for a long time. In fact, she's cared about it ever since she developed math anxiety herself as a young student, and she decided to conquer it as an adult so she could help others never feel the way she did. Heidi has been an educator in math and literacy for over 25 years, and her superpower is coaching teachers on how to overcome their own math anxiety. And in today's episode, she walks us through her exact process with a step-by-step playbook to help teachers transform. We also discuss why so many of us develop math anxiety because of the way math is taught and how anyone can learn a better way regardless of how old you are or how gross you feel about math. Now, before we get into the episode, I'm actually so excited to say these words because it's a first for Math Therapy, and I get to sound like a real deal professional celeb podcaster. And because I manifested this. Okay. I'm nervous. Are you ready? Fine. Okay. Here we go. This episode of Math Therapy is brought to you by Texas Instruments. Ah, I did it. Oh my God. It's true though, it's our first sponsored episode. Like I know that might not be as exciting for you as it is for me, but first of all, that was as much fun to say as I thought it would be. And second, if you know me, you know I have been a Texas Instruments girly since high school, so I can think of no other brand I'd wanna partner with first. But even more exciting for you is that we're doing a giveaway right now and you can win an Oh My Math box featuring their brand new TI 84 Evo graphing calculator and some other goodies, including a plushie calculator key chain, which is literally just as cute as it sounds. The TI 84 Evo is a graphing calculator for like today's classroom. The best feature, is the new home screen, which is super intuitive and icon based, so you can see everything you need and like you're not digging around through menus to find features. It kind of operates like a smartphone screen so it feels familiar and super friendly. So to enter, all you have to do is text the podcast using the link in your app and tell me you want in on the TI giveaway. Your entry has to be received by Tuesday, May 19th. I'll randomly pick a winner and just like that, the new TI 84 Evo is yours. I did it, my first sponsored message. Okay. Now let's get to today's guest because that is just as exciting as the giveaway, I promise. Here is my chat with Heidi Sabnani.

Teachers get math anxious too

Vanessa Vakharia 3:06

Heidi, welcome to the podcast.

Heidi Sabnani 3:08

Thank you so much for having me.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:10

I was having a memory of the first time I met you, so it was my first ever NCTM, so I think it was 2022. It was in La, like it was gonna California. And I remember looking through the program and I was like, oh my God, somebody's talking about math anxiety, I'm gonna go see it. And what I remember distinctly, is that your presentation has so many GIFs in it. Do we call it gif? Or a gif? I don't wanna start this debate, but what do you call it?

Heidi Sabnani 3:34

GIF

Vanessa Vakharia 3:35

God,

Heidi Sabnani 3:35

it. But I mean, I

Vanessa Vakharia 3:37

no.

Heidi Sabnani 3:37

wrong. I mean, my, my teenagers are not here to tell me if it, is it gif or gif i, you know, I've said both.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:45

okay.

Heidi Sabnani 3:45

I'm from New England. We don't pronounce all our consonants, so

Vanessa Vakharia 3:48

Fine. Yes. Tomato, tomato, gif, gif. I remember it had all these funny, I'm gonna use your language 'cause you're my guest, it had so many funny gifs on it. And I was like, oh my God, this is so cool. But I remember leaving being like, honestly, you were the first person. I ever knew who was doing work on math anxiety. Like I remember being like, oh my gosh, this is the first time I've heard somebody else talk about this in a similar way that I do. So let's get into it. When we do our talks, these are people who choose to go to a conference. So that's like one level of math anxiety is the math anxiety where you're like, I know I'm anxious about math. I wanna, you know, try and fix that. But then there's a whole other level of so many folks who are like, I have deep anxiety about math and it's scary and I can't face it. So we're not getting those people. So I would love to know a little bit more about like. What can we do? Like if there's a coach, if there's a teacher, if there's a leader listening to this what are some interventions that you like, love?

Heidi Sabnani 4:44

Yeah. and I'll put myself firmly in the camp of someone who

Vanessa Vakharia 4:47

Same.

Heidi Sabnani 4:48

and like, I've shared the story

Vanessa Vakharia 4:50

Wait, share it now. We don't all know the story. I don't know.

Heidi Sabnani 4:54

Okay. So, have some mild dyscalculia and dyslexia. And a child in school, things were really, really challenging for me, particularly when I was in elementary school. And I, um, came into fourth grade and at the time, that was when we were learning multiplication facts and that they made no sense to me. And it was like this constant battle. And I had a teacher who, if I look back on it kindly now, like with the best possible of, of lenses, was doing what had been done for years. And it's like, you know, she divided the class into the kids who were bright and moving forward and to those of us who were not and weren't really as worthy of her time. Um,

Vanessa Vakharia 5:42

This is the best possible lens everyone.

Heidi Sabnani 5:45

Yes, this is the best possible ones. Um, but you know, but like what she know, right?? Like what she knew how to do, and it's like, oh, if you have like this group of kids, it's super bright and like you should be pushing them and doing all the things. And my, um, situation was I had to stay in at recess every day to do more math work because I was so behind and, and all of those things in one day, I had had enough and I threw my work down and I went out to recess with all my friends and I remember her standing up at the top of the, playground, like screaming, Heidi Sabnani get back here.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:18

Oh my God.

Heidi Sabnani 6:19

um, it was like a huge thing. my parents were mortified, there were all sorts of repercussions. My parents' response was like, we're gonna brute force this. We're going to like help you memorize and we're gonna work on this. And so I left that experience and thought that math was literally something to endure and something to memorize. And so we worked on memorizing tools to help me memorize things so that I wasn't switching numbers and, and letters made it even more interesting when we got in into those later times. And so my whole goal in high school was to take enough math so that I

Vanessa Vakharia 6:57

Hmm. Were you diagnosed with dyscalculia and dyslexia at that time, or

Heidi Sabnani 7:02

No.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:02

So you didn't even know, you were just like experiencing this thing and like you didn't know what was up. You were just like, this is just making things hard. Okay.

Heidi Sabnani 7:10

early, early

Vanessa Vakharia 7:11

Yeah. Yep, yep. Yep.

Heidi Sabnani 7:12

Unless it was like, you know, super severe needs within, you were, you were not getting any additonal support.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:20

The way, I always say is one of the major causes of math trauma is having an undiagnosed learning difference and just feeling like there's something wrong with you and not being given the support that like exists.

Heidi Sabnani 7:28

Yep. a hundred percent true. And so like, that was my whole thing. I went and, and chose a career that was not in math, not in stem, like literacy a hundred percent of the way. Fast forward a whole bunch of years. I'm working for the school improvement division, one of the divisions in Ohio. And I had a co-teacher who was gonna help support teachers in the school improvement on math. And I was gonna do literacy and it was gonna be this wonderful like, situation where we could work with adults. And I was so excited. And, um, she decided like six weeks in that she hated working with adults and quit. Boss was like, well, this is a grant funded position and we can't find anyone, so it's gonna be you. You're just gonna do both math and literacy. And I said, um, I'm so sorry. No, I have lived my entire life, like I'm in my thirties at this point, with the goal to avoid being in math classrooms. Like I'm not, I can't put myself through that stress. And she's like, oh, you're just gonna fake it till you make it like it's high school. It's primarily pedagogical needs that they have. And so you're gonna go in. So I would go into these classrooms and go into these meetings and be like, okay, so today we're gonna act like know nothing. And you're going to work with me like as if I'm a student. And then I would go into these classrooms and the kids would ask me questions and I'd be like, oh, what do you think about that? Like, talk me through your process or like, what tools do you have that

Vanessa Vakharia 8:50

Okay. Wait, so what, let me pause though. When, when they're asking you questions, are you legitimately like, I actually don't know the answer. I'm not even acting right now. Okay. You're method acting.

Heidi Sabnani 8:59

yes, a hundred percent so at the end of that school year, the district and my boss came to me and they're like, you know, we felt this, this is went so well. people just really appreciate the fact that you're not like telling them exactly do this or that. You're asking kids questions or asking them to, and I was like, this is really backfiring on me. And so in that moment, I started looking for and started taking math classes again. And so I went back and I was like, if I'm gonna do this, if I'm gonna be in this space. And I, at that point, they were like, we'd also love you to go and work with the elementary schools and the teachers there. And I said, okay, if I'm gonna do that, I'm gonna. My experience, and I'm gonna reteach myself in the ways that I wish I had been taught. And so I looked for, like the Marilyn Burns and the all, all the things that have existed, but that I had did not seem to have access to because people have been doing this work.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:54

This is kind of wild because this is so meta, right? This is like the matrix or what's that movie? Inception, right? With like all the, it's like there's so many layers here because it's like, now obviously we're gonna get to now in a second, but I'm thinking about how, where our conversation is about how to help teachers with their own math anxiety. And you were that teacher basically, like you were that teacher with that math anxiety. You're put in this role, which I almost feel as like exposure therapy. It's basically like you're there, you're doing it through that somehow you get to the point where someone's like, Heidi, you know what? This was actually awesome. We want you to keep doing this. And then you're like, okay, I'm gonna guess I'm gonna learn more math. So my question is, at this point, are you scared of learning more math or are you feeling a bit confident because you've done a good job so far at whatever it is that you're doing?

Heidi Sabnani 10:39

I was scared that I wasn't gonna be able to find the answers to the questions that I'd always. And I think that's the thing. One of the, one of the issues for me as a child learning was that really did wanna know why. I wanted to know like the, the reason behind things and why things work and if there were connections and like there were always clues, right? While my graduate work and things were, was in world literature, but I'm always looking for like the connecting points between literature from different countries around the world and like what themes are there. And like I love reading mysteries for like for fun. And so it was like this idea of like, I've always been pulling at those, those patterns and those pieces, but no one ever told me that was mathematical.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:18

So

How Heidi started coaching teachers

Vanessa Vakharia 11:19

like how did you then go from, so you're, you're here, you're like, I'm gonna learn the math, and then I guess somewhere along the line you're like, this is the work I'm gonna do. I'm gonna help teachers with their own anxiety around math. Is that what happens?

Heidi Sabnani 11:30

Yeah. it started out not, you know, in the beginning I was looking at it from a student lens and then. more I got into it, I was like, no. Like where I spend my time and the people who I have the most opportunities for impact are adult learners. And so I needed to switch that because adult learners are the ones who impact students. And so if I wanna make a big enough difference in like the student situation, like these teachers are going to have, you know, anywhere from 20 to 30 kids every year that they're impacting and that they're building these systems for. So if I want to impact the largest number of students, then I need to think about what am I doing to help their teachers?

Vanessa Vakharia 12:08

There's so much like discourse out there around you know, how to mitigate math anxiety, and I'm curious how you feel about the idea that like the only way to help someone become less anxious around math is to like teach them more math. Like what are the things you think really move the dial when it comes to a teacher's relationship with math? Like what are your things where you're like, I'm gonna go in, someone hires you and they're like, Heidi, you've got six hours. Like do, like, do make, do you make some sort of transformation happen? What are your like go-to tools?

Heidi Sabnani 12:39

So a couple of things. I ask, just as, as you've asked, I often ask teachers to give me their mathology. Their biography of how they've experienced math and what their situation is. Because I think that's so critical to really understanding where people are coming from. And asking them like, what is your goal for this work that we're about to do? Is it so that you can help your high schooler as a parent? Or is it so that you can have a deeper understanding of the mathematics that you are teaching in your classroom? Because I think one of the things that we miss so often is the depth of the mathematics that we are asking young learners to learn. We treat it as building blocks to calculus or being mindset or whatever it is, and I'm like, no, the math that these children are learning is deep and interconnected and, and they should have time and space to really learn that, right? So then how do we help teachers have that same experience? So when I go in, it is not like I am not ever giving my elementary school teachers algebra, calculus problems to do. And I know there are people who do that. They're like, oh, we just need to give them more math and, and have them work on challenging, like, no, I can also come up with things that are challenging and different ways of thinking about and learning things in the content that actually matters to them

Vanessa Vakharia 14:07

So, okay. Yeah.

Heidi Sabnani 14:08

that they're gonna use immediately versus just like, okay, we're, we're gonna sit through and work. No one's gonna wanna come to your.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:17

Right.

Heidi Sabnani 14:18

No. You know, like yes, when I work with teachers, we do math, we do, but it's meaningful math for what they're going to be doing

Vanessa Vakharia 14:28

So you're.

Heidi Sabnani 14:29

It's meaningful math

Vanessa Vakharia 14:30

it's meaningful math.

Heidi Sabnani 14:32

with their

Vanessa Vakharia 14:32

Meaningful math for what they're gonna do with their students so that they can understand it more in depth and feel more confident teaching their students like in the classroom.

Advice that helps teachers NOW

Vanessa Vakharia 14:39

Okay, so you're in there. You've asked them for their math story, so they understand why they got there. You've asked them for their goals of what they wanna get outta the session. Now you're doing meaningful math. What's next?

Heidi Sabnani 14:49

So what structures do we have in coaching that we can leverage for working with teachers with math anxiety? If we really wanna work on how teachers are teaching mathematics, we have to focus on, okay, what's the thing that they're working on right now? So I have teachers that work with me. We are doing a problem that's what they're doing within the

Vanessa Vakharia 15:09

Okay.

Heidi Sabnani 15:10

If they're not using it within the next week,

Vanessa Vakharia 15:12

Got it.

Heidi Sabnani 15:13

it they have to have the opportunity to like feel like they're leaving with something in their toolbox. So we do that kind of content work and we think about like building a system for them that is gonna allow them to have the questions that they often are so amazing at. So I will go in and work with them in their literacy classrooms and take notes of all the questions that they asked, and then we'll sit down and say, okay, like what questions here can you also use in

Vanessa Vakharia 15:44

Like, gimme an example.

Heidi Sabnani 15:47

So what might happen next? What? What

Vanessa Vakharia 15:51

Oh,

Heidi Sabnani 15:52

in this piece

Vanessa Vakharia 15:53

so you're saying like the,

Heidi Sabnani 15:54

that you

Vanessa Vakharia 15:55

The teachers are already really good at asking these types of questions. They just dunno how to translate that skill they already have into a math class. Oh my god, I love this. Okay.

Heidi Sabnani 16:04

So I'm like, okay,

Vanessa Vakharia 16:06

Right.

Heidi Sabnani 16:07

but you just do it in literacy and why are you doing it in literacy? And they're like, well, I feel comfortable with if a student says something that I'm not sure about, like I have the tools to go back to. I'm like, okay, so what is it gonna take for you to feel that same way if you were to ask that question

Vanessa Vakharia 16:22

Okay.

Heidi Sabnani 16:24

What do you think happiness or what might you do next? And if the kid says something that they don't understand, I'm like, okay, so like what do you do when you're asking that question literacy? Well, then I ask them a follow up question. I ask them, could you explain your thinking? Can we draw out what you think might happen. So you can understand, because I mean little children sometimes are not the clearest communicators. And so like how do we help them with that? And so we have those conversations of how to build in those pieces. And then we work the math, that's gonna help them feel comfortable answering those types of questions or asking for more depth in those moments. So it's like this cycle that happens. Um, and so when I work with coaches and that, I'm like teaching them like how to. Conduct meetings in that way, you have to have a different lens than the lens that we have when we're strictly just coaching the math anxiety piece, because we're often coaching then for like, okay, we have to get through this. We have to do this. I'm held to the fire for this, like for us to be at this point in the pacing,

Vanessa Vakharia 17:31

I really, really like this approach. It kind of feels like it's like multi-pronged and there's like a bit of a holistic thing of like, number one, we're hearing where you're coming from, like what your anxieties are, what story you're coming from. Number two, what your goals are. Number three, we're gonna go through a math concept that you've gotta teach that you need to get more confidence in. Number four, we're gonna take skills you're already using in other domains, and we're gonna just figure out how to apply them to math class and what you need to do that confidently. Am I right? Am I getting this right?

Heidi Sabnani 17:56

Yeah. And then we, the last thing, we really reflect on it. So writing has been shown, like even if you are like before a test, and it's one of the things that I've said to kids and I like, Howie gives the five minutes before where they could look at the test. Other times you just have kids do a brain dump of, okay, what do you know? What are you worried about? What do you like? Get all the

Vanessa Vakharia 18:17

I need to do that right now.

Heidi Sabnani 18:19

and then they can focus on. Then they could focus on the thing that they're about to do. Right. So it's, it's very different. Like, just think about it. I mean, I have like a list here on my table of all the things that I, I have a senior, like all the things that we need to do, like we order the prom dress check, like the, like all the, all the

Vanessa Vakharia 18:36

Right.

Heidi Sabnani 18:37

Like, so that it doesn't have to sit in my mind. We can do that same thing with teachers. Okay. So we've done this work now where we're gonna reflect on it and then we're gonna check back in, in the next cycle to see how you're doing.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:47

So my question, so I love this. So wait, when do they do the brain dump? When am I doing the brain dump? Like, does this happen every day? Does it happen at the end of the session?

Heidi Sabnani 18:56

So, yeah, at the end of the

Vanessa Vakharia 18:58

Okay. At the end of the session they're like, okay, all here's all this stuff I've gotta get outta my mind. So what are some things they might write on that piece of paper that you've seen people write?

Heidi Sabnani 19:06

So sometimes it's like, I don't like open number lines,

Vanessa Vakharia 19:10

Oh.

Heidi Sabnani 19:11

but like I've been working on that with Heidi and so like what is the question that I can ask? Like they'll look at a problem that they have coming up. Let me just sketch out what that might be. I'm gonna sketch out an idea of how I could record student think on a number line. I know I don't like using it, that's one of the things I wanna get better at. So they will like put that down. They'll put like, okay, remember to pause and think. You don't have to answer a kid's within the first half,

Vanessa Vakharia 19:36

So this brain dump is like things I'm concerned about, plus solutions that I can use in the moment. So I have on my piece of paper all of my concerns and kind of a fix for them that I can carry around with me.

Heidi Sabnani 19:48

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:49

My question is, so I

How to make changes stick longterm

Vanessa Vakharia 19:50

love this. My question is, you can't do this for every single problem they have to teach every single day. Right. So like it,

Heidi Sabnani 19:56

correct.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:57

the, what is the long-term plan here? Because this sounds like this is the best day ever. And like you would leave being like, all right, I'm ready to teach my next lesson. I've got a plan, I've, whatever. How does this translate into like them feeling more confident every single day?

Heidi Sabnani 20:10

So I like to plan at least weekly. So like we're gonna plan a chunk of the week, so we look at, okay, what's the story of the math that we're doing over this, this time period? And so part of that is like, you're gonna do that with me, but I'm also trying to build systems each do that with each other.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:29

I love that.

Heidi Sabnani 20:30

Because at some point, funding may go away. I will not be there. Funding may go away. Their coach may not be there. What systems are you building

Vanessa Vakharia 20:37

Mm-hmm.

Heidi Sabnani 20:38

Because even if you can do this same process, even if I'm not there, I mean like, please hire me, I'll come but it's that idea of you can also build this system yourself. And if you're an administrator, like administrators run into the same thing, they'll come in and they'll be like, oh, we're so glad you're here because we don't know what to do with the math. And I'm like, how are you, how are you communicating that with your teachers? does that feel like for you? How do you feel when you need to go in and give them feedback on their math lessons? Do you know? So like it, it's this bigger system that we deal with that how are we like refocusing those structures?

Vanessa Vakharia 21:18

okay, I love all of this and I'm thinking about those teachers who I really believe, like, you know, there's so much discourse right now around being like, oh, teachers don't wanna change. They just wanna keep like teaching the way they've always been teaching. And I really believe, and I'm curious what you think, I believe that most people who are in that mindset are scared. Like they, I don't believe that people are just like, I'm the best. I know. I mean, I'm, I'm sure some people think that what they're doing is working. I'm actually sure that some people have seen evidence that what they're doing is working. Right? Like I'm sure a lot of teachers are like, yes, I've been using the algorithm and, and using formulas and stuff, and kids understand it. I do think that most teachers are very well-meaning and being like, I don't really see the problem. It's working. And then other teachers are just, you know, I think there's a piece of it where they're like, I'm scared to try this new thing. And they're probably scared because they're, they have their own anxiety around math. So like in given that case, I'm sure you encounter all the time teachers who are like, I don't want to try doing it this new way. What is your move there?

Heidi Sabnani 22:14

So part of it is, i'll start back at the algorithm and I'll move back and kind of show the progression across grade levels and I'll say like, where is your grade level? And then I say like, okay, considering your students, which of these ways think about the students that you have? Because our teachers do know their students, do care about their students, they do want them to do well. So will look at that and say like, oh, like this picture would really help them. I don't necessarily understand how to use that picture. Can you help me with that? So like, they begin to notice that because we've made connecting points to the thing that they've memorized and know how to do to the things that come before. But that takes time. Like that's, that's like a PD day where we're doing a really deep dive into it, not just like a five minute conversation. And I, I think that's the, the balancing point that we have to think about is like what opportunities we're providing our students with that. I had a, at the beginning of the school year where like that happened. I had like shown a, a progression and a teacher, like literally like threw her stuff and she's like, this, this is the why I've been so reticent to teach with in this way is because I didn't know this. Now that I know, like that's why I'm afraid. She was like, I didn't understand the connection between the two. And it's like sometimes it's just helping teachers see that. And saying like, you, you learned that way, like that works for you. Is it working for all your students? Because that's probably not.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:49

Well, I think it's so crazy because it's like, what I'm really hearing in this conversation, and I, you're not the first person who said this, but you're, you're really illustrating it, is like the key is giving the teacher who has their anxiety around math, a mathematical experience where they get to experience math in a different way and then have this moment of like, oh my God, that felt really good for me. I would like to do this for my students, now I know that it's possible. But how crazy is it that the whole system of where this can happen is not at teachers college. It has to be this completely separate thing that happens in the field when teachers are already teaching. Like I'm just kind of like, why? Like does this not seem a bit wild to you? And is like dependent on funding?

Heidi Sabnani 24:36

It is. It is. And like I will say, there are definitely spaces in pre-service teacher work where people are doing work with. pre-service teachers with math anxiety like that is happening, but it's pockets, it's not like a consistent part. We don't have here in the us and I don't know if

Vanessa Vakharia 24:53

We don't.

Heidi Sabnani 24:54

there's not like a

Vanessa Vakharia 24:55

Absolutely not.

Heidi Sabnani 24:56

of math, like classes you need to take, you

Vanessa Vakharia 25:00

No.

Heidi Sabnani 25:00

You get into, you know, like all of those things. We, we don't have a, like any kind of systematic way of like saying Okay, as a educator of pre-service teachers, I'm gonna make sure these things happen. It's very much dependent on who you get. And so then we have,

Vanessa Vakharia 25:17

Which is kind of crazy. Like think about it, if you went to med school, there's like a standardized thing of things you need to learn.

Heidi Sabnani 25:24

Yes, yes. And, and then like, or we'll ask elementary school teachers to take calculus three on their assessment to get certification.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:39

What.

Heidi Sabnani 25:39

Like, but they're gonna be teaching second grade. that's not the necessary thing for them. And so then we wonder like, oh, we have a teacher shortage. know. Well, maybe let's think about like what we're doing, what the, and I'm not saying there shouldn't be some levels of certification and like there should be, but like, it's this idea of like, are we actually assessing the right things.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:59

it's like the idea of being like, oh, an elementary teacher will be more ready to teach math if they just learn more math in the way that they did not understand math. no. Like it'll make more sense if they learn the math that they're going to teach in a way that they finally understand.

Heidi Sabnani 26:14

Exactly. And like with the tools that they're gonna need to be using in their classroom. I mean, it is. It is amazing. Even with my new teachers, how few of them ever experienced using manipulatives in their own school experience, in their teacher practicum

Vanessa Vakharia 26:32

I'm actually scared of manipulatives. Do you know that? That's my main fear in math. I have no memory of ever using them as a child. And anytime I go into an elementary PD and they start putting like those queasy air rods or whatever, the blocks, the arrays, I don't even know what, oh my God, are you gonna pull one out? Oh my God. Like I have PTSD. Like I can't even look at that little Ziploc baggie of colored things because I'm like, I don't know what to do with them. And all the elementary teachers just start being like, oh yes, and now I've got 10 and now, and I'm like, I don't know what's happening right now. So like, I get it. I actually understand

Heidi Sabnani 27:02

Yeah. Yeah. And like I have a, one of the coaches that, or an interventionist that I'm with right now, she's like, I get it out. She's like, I know my kids need to use this, but you, you need to work with me. I need to be more comfortable with this, she's like, because I'm not. I'm like, okay, we're gonna do that. not a problem. So it's just that way of thinking about it in a, in a different way and giving access

Vanessa Vakharia 27:28

It's interesting because this conversation could have gone so many different ways, but what has really been at the forefront to me is, first of all, I love that you walked us through kind of like what a day looks like of how you can at least start the cycle of, of you know, how to approach a teacher with math, anxiety, and at least get a little movement through those five pieces of asking them their story, asking them their goals. Giving them a math experience, walking through 'em through a meaningful problem that they're going to have to do with students. having them transfer skills from literacy or something else else they're teaching into math class and then having them do that brain dump, right. Of just being like, what are all the concerns that are gonna rise in the week? 'cause that's a really nice cycle. That you can kind of do with any math concept. And I feel like if you do it over and over again, teachers start getting used to it. You're right. They can form their own like professional learning communities in their own schools. They can help one another. So I love that. But also I think it's really important for us to know, there's two pieces that you pointed out, which is you give them the opportunity to talk about their anxieties and their story, and then you allow them to have an experience where they experience math a little bit differently and. It's cool because those things go hand in hand, right? It kind of shows us that like, like I always talk about, believe, behave, become, and how it's important to address beliefs, but it's also important to give teachers or whoever the learner is, a new experience, a new behavior, so they can see those beliefs like actually come to action. So, I think you illustrated that really, really nicely, and everyone should obviously hire you to come into their schools and transform their environments. And it's cool because you are doing this work and you're, you're kind of proving to all of us that your relationship with math, regardless of your age, does not have to stay the same.

Is math anxiety contagious?

Vanessa Vakharia 29:10

There's one more thing I actually really wanna know your opinion on.

Heidi Sabnani 29:12

Yep.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:13

know how there's always these articles that come out being like, teacher math, anxiety is contagious, and like blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What would you say to the teacher who's like, I'm really worried that I'm like infecting my students with my math anxiety.

Heidi Sabnani 29:26

Interestingly enough, one, one of the teachers who participated in my doctoral research, that was her whole motivation for saying yes. She was a, she's an amazing teacher. And she was noticing that she had kids in her classroom who always needed to go to the nurse or the bathroom every time they got to math. she was like, and I am afraid that my reticence is transferring. And so with her, this is where we started with literacy, 'cause she was like an amazing literacy teacher. I said like, you're just not using those skills that you have there. So let's start transferring those over. Let's start transferring those questions. Let's start like giving yourself some time to breathe. I think that the research shows that teachers with math anxiety spend 50% less time teaching math, and they teach in ways that are rote and are based on memorization speed. So if we look at just those two things, less time teaching and speed and memorization, we know that, that those two things, having less time to work on something and being forced to memorize it, some of the major underlying foundations of math anxiety. So it's a result, not necessarily, I, I don't think it's like the intent, I think like it becomes because of those, those two factors. Uh, I don't think it's contagious. I do think that mindsets be contagious. You know, if you, if you're ever around someone who's like super negative about something like that, that begins to permeate, right? Or you have someone who's, who's always like, really excited about every brand new day and what, like those things are contagious. And so we have to think about and just be mindful of what is our thinking and how we, um, create, what is our mindset when we go into that. But I think that through that reflection piece. And through the pointing out the things that they're really good at already, they're like, you are really good at this. You do have the skills to do this, and then let's reflect and brain dump on it. So then you're not thinking about those things when you're going in

Vanessa Vakharia 31:49

I really think that's so awesome how you said that. And like I wonder if, like, this is what I always say and I'm curious what your thoughts are on it. I'm like, your mindset is one thing, right? Like, so I actually like your example of being like, imagine a really a negative person or whatever, right? Your mindset is one thing. I just actually am reading the new Lena Dunham book, which seems like it would not be related to this conversation, but it is because she says that her father always says something like, there's no such thing as a bad thought there, it's it, there's no such thing as a negative thought, there is such a thing as a negative action. Like often we can't help our thoughts, we're working on them, whatever. But what you do with your thoughts is what matters. So like your mindset is one thing, like you being like, Ugh, I really don't think I'm a math person, is one thing. But then the action you take as a result, so the action might be teaching less math or refusing to teach, you know, change the way you teach. Or expressing to the classroom, I hate math, I was born with a math deficiency. Like that action is the thing that actually has the effect. So even if you're listening to this and you're like, oh, but I do have a negative mindset around math. If you're reflective on that, like Heidi says, and you pick your action with thoughtfulness, for example, saying to your class, you know what guys, like, I do have a bad attitude around math, but it's something I've developed, it's not something I'm born with and I'm working on it. 'cause I know it's not like, me, you know, I wanna, whatever that, ultimately it is the believe, behave, become in a way, but do you, do you agree? Like, it's like kind of the way you the action you take as a result of your mindset is the actual piece that matters. And obviously we want you to change your mindset, but in the process of doing that, as long as you take thoughtfully aligned action, it's okay for you to not feel so great about math. You're not like.

Heidi Sabnani 33:21

Yes. I mean, and, and. It will change from day to day. I will walk into spaces sometimes even now or someone will have something and I'm like, it just freaks me out. And I'm like okay I need to pause and and Or like some ridiculous problem. I remember being in a session with. It was a regional, teachers of mathematics thing and someone who like I really respect, like put this problem up on the board. And I was there with some teachers I worked with and I was like, oh, my word. Like gross, like what is that? Like? And, and I don't

Vanessa Vakharia 33:57

Right.

Heidi Sabnani 33:57

that. And I'm here with like teachers that I work with and now they're gonna see me and, and know that I like, am not unsure about how to do this. I was sitting next to Molly and Molly was like, that problem's disgusting. I'm not doing it.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:09

Okay.

Heidi Sabnani 34:10

And like someone else from the back was like, well just look at the structure of that. And I was like, I didn't even think that, like my brain short circuited in that moment. And if I had been able to pause and think, and so that's what, that was the conversation I had with my teachers. I was like, because we all went to that same place. We all went to like, oh, But like looking for that structure in that moment, giving yourself a pause like that will still happen. I will still walk into spaces where I'm like, I don't know that I should be here, Someone made me feel a certain kind of way about it, but done the work, I'm here, like I'm working on it like none of us have arrived. We're all working on things. And so give yourself some time and space in that moment and like you can do the thing. You just have to give yourself some time.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 34:58

Okay. Final two questions. Someone is listening to this. They're like, wow, I love everything. Okay. You have 30 seconds to answer this a time test, so not okay of me. Okay. So someone's listening, they're like, I love all of this, and like, Ugh, I would love Heidi to come help us at our school. But the thing is, I'm just not a math person, so it's just not gonna work. What would you say.

Heidi Sabnani 35:15

Yeah, I would say, um, what We can also talk literacy. Let's talk literacy first, and, and then I'll show you how that connects to mathematics, I do work in both of those spaces. Um, but it is like. You are, you are a person who interacts with mathematics in some form or another. So let's start with that. And let's start with the things that you're comfortable with. If it's literacy, we're gonna start there and we're gonna show you how those things connect to math. And then I'm gonna make you a math person

Vanessa Vakharia 35:43

Ah, I really like the emphasis you've made on the connection of you have skills in this other area you feel comfortable in, let me show you how they connect in math, because that's something I do a lot in my work, I call it like your math superpower. We're just using different language for the same thing of being like, you're good, you feel good about these things, you're just not seeing how those apply in math. So, I love that so much, and I think that has to do with broadening our definition of what math is like asking good questions. You do that in literacy and you're good at it. You feel good about it. Guess what? Asking good questions is a math skill, so love that.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 36:15

Okay, last question. If there was one thing you could change about the way math is taught, what would it be? Is that my question? Is there there one thing you could change about math class? I can't even remember it anymore. Whatever. Heidi, answer one of those in 30 seconds.

Heidi Sabnani 36:32

I wish that we had more time and fewer standards. I think that would make a, a really big difference. And I think like looking at things in a more connected way. You know, during the Renaissance, you were not regardless of when and where it happened in your country. You are not solely a math person or a literacy person or art person, or a sculptor or what, like it was a, it was the combination of all of those things together. And we so much teach things in silos now we don't allow students to see the connectedness between all of those pieces of life. And so I, I wish that we could change that, and help students see that the skills that they're learning in math help them in other spaces as

Vanessa Vakharia 37:21

You know what is so interesting that when you just said that, I just got goosebumps because I was like, I was getting this deja vu and I remembered my last guest, Dr. Edward Doolittle, who's in, he's a, an indigenous math expert in Canada. He talked about how this exact same thing, he put it in different words, but he said in indigenous cultures we, they have sages, right? There's just a sage that's like a knower of things. It's not like a math stage and an English right? It's like this idea of like this collective wisdom, this holistic wisdom. And you're right, I think there is something to this siloed approach where like a lot of things actually are not siloed. You know what I mean? Like it's like almost like we come up, we have this word like the arts, and that actually encompasses a lot of things, but math is only this one thing. And it's, I really, that is gonna leave me thinking, that's gonna leave us all thinking that idea of like less silos, more just wisdom. Like what is wisdom and why is mathematical wisdom just not a part of this? I'm now, I'm now over explaining because I think actually 30 seconds ago I had a mic drop and it was really good after your mic drop and now we gotta end this. We're gonna end this. I'm undoing the wisdom that I just shared. That was actually not mine. It was yours and Dr. Edward Doolittle's.

Heidi Sabnani 38:40

No, but I, I think that's like such a key element of this work, is we have to stop looking at it in, in those ways. And we have to start, it's the idea of when we try new things that are outside our comfort zone, do we expect immediate success? You're a musician, I played piano for years and years and years. That didn't come from, like, I just sat down one day and I was like a prodigy. Those moments are rare, right? So like, it takes time. I learned to watercolor during the pandemic. begrudgingly like all of those things, it takes time, right? It takes time. And you know what, it's just paper. like the person I've been learning with online, like, she's like, it's just paper, throw it out.. Start over. If we look at mathematics as problem solving, then let's solve real problems that matter. And let's not just have them so isolated.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 39:36

What a lovely conversation. Honestly. Thank you so much for making time.

Heidi Sabnani 39:40

go on and

Vanessa Vakharia 39:40

You are so, oh yeah, we could talk. We were gonna have to do a part two. We could talk forever. Heidi, thank you so much. You're amazing. Thank you for being here.

Heidi Sabnani 39:48

Well, thank you for having me. I love it that we have met in real life and we get to chat about the work that you're doing and that I'm doing and like the connection between the two. 'Cause again, it takes more than one person. Like it takes a whole community of us doing this work to actually

Vanessa Vakharia 40:01

Yeah. Well, thank you for being in the community. Oh. I feel like me and Heidi are both bad at saying bye. I don't know that either of us is gonna do it. She's waving. Say it. Goodbye

Heidi Sabnani 40:11

Bye.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:14

Okay, you know I love practical advice. I love useful strategies. And there is nothing I love more than steps. I love how Heidi broke her thinking down into clear steps to show us that transformation can happen with intentional, consistent action. And if you noticed, that was a cornerstone of how she helps teachers transform, through consistent learning, consistent practice with different approaches to math, and consistent support that helps them feel safe enough to try new things. If you're listening, regardless of what anxiety you're trying to work through right now, like maybe it's math anxiety, but maybe it's just anxiety around getting organized or being financially secure, traveling solo, speaking your mind, I don't know, but Heidi's message still works. So commit to trying a new approach consistently, week after week, month after month. When we try a new approach to something and stick to it, we will get a different outcome. It's basically guaranteed. All right, before I say bye, or attempt to say bye, remember to do two things. Number one, text this episode to your math people. You know, the ones who need to know they can change the way they feel about math, and the ones in charge of supporting those who want to change the way they feel about math, and the ones who want to win a brand-new calculator. Because this brings me to the next thing I want you to remember, which is to enter our giveaway with Texas Instruments, which includes a brand-new TI-84 Evo with a four-year online calculator license, a getting started guide and calendar, and a plushie keychain in a mystery color. All you have to do is text the podcast using the link in your app and tell me you want in on the TI giveaway by Tuesday, May nineteenth. I'll randomly pick a winner, and just like that, the new TI-84 Evo is yours, baby. All right, guys, that's all she wrote. See you next week, same day, same channel, same unhinged energy.