Intro

Vanessa Vakharia 0:04

Guys, oh my God, I cannot believe I'm about to say this, but welcome to our first ever live off the floor Math Therapy podcast episode. That's right, I have manifested my becoming a less creepy Dr. Phil and a half as cool Oprah dreams by low-key turning this podcast into a talk show. So last week, I presented at Leander ISD's annual Math Joy Conference, and I turned one of my sessions into an interview in front of a live studio audience, and it was the coolest thing ever. Now, did I almost blow up my laptop attempting to get sound directly from the speaker into my MacBook? Yes. Did I then almost have a mild panic attack? Also yes. Did I then get the incredible audience to lend me three of their phones so I could record voice memos from different angles in an attempt to get audio that David wouldn't kill me over? Yes, yes, and yes. And did it work? Heck yes, it did. The thing is, I'm kind of glad this interview was live because it was low-key jaw-dropping at points, and it was kind of cool to see, like, listeners' jaws drop in real time Now, why was it jaw-dropping, you ask? Well, because I interviewed the one and only Chase Orton, author of The Imperfect and Unfinished Math Teacher, king disruptor of the math ed world. If you've ever felt like you're so bound by curriculum companies, standardized testing, and systemic obstacles that you're burning out and burning up by the second, this episode is for you. In this totally raw and unfiltered interview, Chase does not hold back on his belief that the past 40 years of top-down PD efforts in math have rarely supplied teachers with what they need to equitably grow their practice, and he shares the one thing he believes we all need to do right now to truly flourish in this profession. he also does not hold back on sharing his views on how a particular curriculum company is completely destroying education. You'll see. The tea is hot. So buckle up and welcome to the first ever Math Therapy Live talk show. I'm so happy you're here.

Chase Orton: chaos-driven teaching disrupter

Vanessa Vakharia 2:05

Okay, this is actually very exciting, 'cause we have... Are you nervous?

Chase Orton 2:08

No, I'm focused. I am- grounding myself, pretending that there aren't 55 eyes out there, 56 eyes, probably, an even number- looking at me, and I'm just... Yeah, I'm ready.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:20

Okay. Well, I am very excited. So this has been a dream of mine forever. If you guys don't know, I have a podcast called Ma- hi, guys. Okay, that's gonna be in the recording. This is gonna sound so real. I'm wearing too many jingly things. Okay, So I have a podcast called Math Therapy. And it is my dream to have a Netflix show. This isn't about me. This is gonna be about Chase. but the point is, it's always been my dream to have a Netflix show, and I wanna have, like, a style of a show where we have these real conversations. And as Peter Liljedahl always says, "The smartest person in the room is the room," right? There are so many people who have s- who know so many things. So I thought it'd be really cool to do, like, a fireside chat. We are recording this. We don't know if it's gonna work, but maybe it's gonna be a podcast, and you guys are gonna be our first live audience ever. Woo. So, okay, so we're gonna chat. I'm gonna ask you some questions, and I'm gonna save 10 minutes for Q&A, 'cause I think that would be cool, too, and I feel like that's what professional people do.

Chase Orton 3:18

Great. Can I add on to your Netflix idea?

Vanessa Vakharia 3:20

Please do.

Chase Orton 3:20

Yeah. I want to have a segment on that of math class in America where remember John Oliver back when he was on the- Oh, yeah John Stewart Show, right, and he was a side piece? And I would just like to go travel around rural America and teach math class with people and get their story and hear about their experiences. So I've driven all over this country, and I've been to really small towns, and I drive through and I'm like, "Man, that was just a school. Somebody is teaching math there every day. How are they doing? Who are they? What's their story?" I don't know if it'll be a full Netflix show, but if you can get the Netflix show and I could just ride your coattails- I love- That'd be great. That'd be great. That'd be great

Vanessa Vakharia 4:00

I do love this, and you know what? I will say, I actually had a meeting with Netflix in 2020. I did.

Chase Orton 4:06

Oh, okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:06

I did. I did. I actually had a meeting with them, and I pitched them Math Therapy, but it was more of, like, the format of Queer Eye for the Straight Guy, if you guys have seen that. It's like somebody shows up to someone's house and gives them a makeover with their math identity. Sure. Sure. They, they literally said to me, "If the word math is in the title, no one will watch it."

Audience 4:23

Oh.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:25

Oh, my God, that was like a studio audience noise right there. Anyways, my point is, I like this. I, I really like this idea, and guys, look at how many of us are in here. I think we can manifest this, and it starts today. It's starting right now with Chase Orton.

Chase Orton 4:38

Sure. I love it.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:39

Welcome to the podcast.

Chase Orton 4:40

Thanks for having me. It's been a while. I'm glad I'm here.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:44

I'd like to start where things began today when we ran into each other here, probably meeting for only the second or third time, and I said to Chase, "I think we are polar opposites." And Chase said, "I disagree with that." I'd like you to tell the audience why you disagreed with that, because I actually think it ties into your philosophy as an educator.

Chase Orton 5:06

Sure. Okay. Uh, I think there are, as teachers, there are people that, teachers that are willing to, uh, mess around and find out, right? Like, to try out a lesson, to risk, to fail, to flop first period, revise the second period, and we're pretty comfortable with uncertainty and public failure in front of our students. And perhaps sometimes we don't always think things through. Maybe we jump, dri- dive in before really seeing if there's water in the pool. Um, and I think maybe there are some teachers that are really disciplined and super structured- and super ordered, and they've got all the pedagogic moves down, and they can choreograph 30 squirrely kids into something that resembles cohesive, like, thinking and talking and, and, um, uh, so I think that there are two types of those teachers, and I think we're both kind of the chaos-driven teachers of just- Let's, we got, I, I don't know what's gonna happen, but we can talk about it forever, or we could just teach first period and have an experience. I see that. Yeah, yeah. So-

Vanessa Vakharia 6:07

Chaos-driven teachers. I actually love that term, and I'm curious who here would relate to that. Who here feels like a chaos-driven teacher? Some of us. And who is like, "That's my worst nightmare"? Actually. So we see who all the Virgos are now. Okay, that's very clear. And

Chase Orton 6:23

I, I think it's our relationship with ambiguity. And so much about teaching is, like, we just don't know. Like, it's, it's such a hard job. Um, um, and the judgment calls we have to make. But it requires, I think, a lot of comfort in ambiguity.

Can ambiguity in teaching math be an asset?

Vanessa Vakharia 6:39

So I'd like to actually know, like, we're here at a forum for math joy, and this is a podcast about math anxiety and trauma that, not just on the side of students, but teachers as well. I'm curious how somebody's comfort or discomfort with ambiguity- might actually come to play and intersect with an anxiety they have around math. Like, do you think there's a relationship between the two?

Chase Orton 7:04

I think that ambiguity is not as celebrated and encouraged in a math classroom. Like, we gotta get to the right answer, and it's either, the final answer is either right or wrong, and we don't let that uncertainty hang enough. I think, um, Dan Meyer talks about we're always in a rush to reach resolution rather than hanging with- with a unsolved problem or unresolved problem by the end of class and, and picking it up moving forward. So, um, yeah, I think for some students or learners in a classroom, if they don't immediately know the answer, they might think that they're bad at math. And then therefore, if they are, are feeling ambiguity, they might start to think they're not a math person, even though I think that's where it's that delicious ambiguity that math joy kind of exists.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:58

I really love that, and I can imagine for many educators who maybe don't feel so great at math or feel anxious around math- that the more that ambiguity settles, you're like, "Oh my God, I can't get to the answer," like, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, and all of a sudden that actually puts us into a trauma response. Like, all of a sudden that can lead to freeze. Right? Because often the ambiguity when you're kind of like, "I don't know how to do something," if it's not celebrated, that becomes a scary feeling, and then all of a sudden we get triggered, and so we shut down. How do you move by, past that?

Chase Orton 8:30

Uh, I hear you talking and I'm always thinking about the teachers and their practice, right, and their ambiguity, and, and not just presenting a problem that may not, we may not get an answer to today. For me, and the title of this workshop is about how do we fall in love with our job again- as teachers, right? And, and I think for us, we've been told, I guess, this myth that as teachers, we need to have all the answers- Yeah and be the answer key, and we're not. Like, it, it, it takes a lot of courage to lean into that discomfort. Lean into, not just the ambiguity and the mathematics, but the ambiguity of how do I design a single learning experience for 28 kids that are all in different places? And I've been in some amazing classrooms this year, right? Yeah. Of wildly different students, right? And last year at Danielson, right, like, and just period to period and the vibe in the room, as a teacher, I, I think for us is it's about embracing that ambiguity. And so I think m- maybe I'm with the therapy for teachers, you know, like ch- Yeah what is it? Soup, uh, Chicken Noodle Soup for the Teaching Soul, right? Like I-

Vanessa Vakharia 9:40

That is a real throwback. I, it is, it is.

Chase Orton 9:42

That was the whole thing, right? Yeah. Um, and, and so I think you're really looking at the identity and agency of adults and young people- Yeah in the math classroom. And, I am looking at teachers who are burnt out dealing with the, the BS of standardized testing and pacing plans and yuck, that stuff. And so how do we re- maintain our resilience and our love for teaching? Um, and I, I, I believe that a lot of us are really different. Some of us, like me, are comfortable with ambiguity. Some other people need to have more order and structure, and we both learn from each other by watching lessons, I, I, I think from Danielson, right? That you are There was some really good learning out of there in ways that I needed more structure and more thinking things through, and learning to grow in that way, that structure is important. Having a vision and a plan is really important. And it's not just about, like, cool task, let's dive in and see what happens. And by third period, it's gonna be pretty good, right?

Vanessa Vakharia 10:40

Well, I mean, what I'm thinking too is, fine, we have this spectrum of ambiguity versus, like, organization or, like, chaos versus not, but let's go back to this idea of burnout because, like just looking around the room, there was a l- a lot of folks nodding and being like, "Yeah, we feel pretty burnt out." And I wonder if when we have this set outcome and this thing we're like, you know, what did Jenny Bay Williams just say? Nobody likes to be should on, right? When we have this thing that we should and we're supposed to be doing, is it the striving for that that leads to burnout? Just like when a student has a math problem with a solution they're supposed to be getting, feeling like they're not getting there, like feeling like you're not getting the outcome, is that the catalyst for burnout? And is there a way- that if we let go of the outcome-

Chase Orton 11:28

Sure

Vanessa Vakharia 11:29

like what Do you guys feel- Sure like that is a catalyst for burnout, being like, "I'm not getting to where I'm supposed to be"? They're all going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah." Yeah, uh- Okay, just for the recording. Make sure. I,

Chase Orton 11:41

I mean, I, I've been there as a teacher where you're like, "All right, I've got this task. It's gonna go like this." And then the kids just wanna take it a different direction.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:49

Okay.

Chase Orton 11:49

And I, I don't know if we... Have we been there as, as a teacher? Like, you're like, "Do I just try to bring the herd back to where I want them to go, or do I just kinda be like, 'All right, herd, where are we going?'" And follow their curiosity. And I, I think that there was, this makes me a bad teacher based on today's norms, but I had to let go of the expectations that I wanted students to get and honor that they were gonna make their own meaning. And sometimes that meaning was more important, more brilliant, more inspiring for me than reaching my intended learning target that could probably wait till tomorrow. And so I think, for me as a teacher, it was, like, really just trying to create an opportunity to, to get kids curious and interested, but I had to let go of my vision of what success looked like. Because then I get mad, and then we are... I, I don't know about you, but I have an inner child as a teacher that gets kind of mad and grumpy, and then two or three days of kids getting under my skin, and now I'm, like, short-tempered with students. I don't know if you ever get short-tempered- with your students, but-

Vanessa Vakharia 12:52

They're all saying, "No, me, never, Chase."

Chase Orton 12:53

Um, you know, but they're... And I talk about this in my book. Like, there were times when I would not scream, but I would have my big, big voice of like- "Why am I the hardest person working in the room right now? Where are you? Why aren't you here?" And it's easy to find myself blaming kids, and that's not nourishing my passion, right? That might be causing math trauma for them.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:15

That just also looked like you, your blood pressure just shot up- Oh, yeah even in that reenactment. Like, it's so... But, like, truly, like, right? Because part of what we don't talk about with burnout is our nervous system. Yeah. And how, like, literally being in the state of escalation, and, like, us, ourse- Are you okay?

Chase Orton 13:31

Yeah, yeah. No, I'm- Yes. I was just thinking back to that time I was in a... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I get emotional.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:36

Right? Like, you're just like, oh my God, you're constantly on edge. So I wanna... I really like this idea of... Because, you know, there's so much in basically every single text, whether you're a spiritual person or not, or what- whatever your brand of spirituality is, even if it's nothing, and even it's just hard science, that actually what leads to suffering the most is resistance. Right? It's resisting the flow. So when we're like, "It's cold outside," and you're like, "I wish it was hot," like, that's causing way more s- more suffering than you just being like, "It's cold and it sucks," right? Like, it's just, it's that inner resistance. And for our nervous systems as well, it's resistance. It's being like, "I don't want things to be this way," as opposed to being like acceptance, right? We have resistance versus acceptance. And you're talking about that, you know, like, to go from where we started here, which was ambiguity, you're kinda going from when we accept that we don't know the answer, when we accept that the lesson is taking this direction, and we stop resisting it, not only does learning happen, but we physically, emotionally, cognitively feel better, right? 'Cause we're no longer fighting. We're no longer fighting.

How teachers can stay motivated in a broken system

Vanessa Vakharia 14:41

But my, my question always is, and I would really like for you to talk us through this, as this is your specialty- Okay is talk to the teacher in the room who's like, "I love that. I wanna be de-escalated. I wanna be chill vibes. I want to follow the chaos, but I also need to meet these targets. I also need them to learn this thing. What... How do we do it?"

Chase Orton 15:02

Uh, I don't want anybody in the room to get fired. Um- Sure. Good start. But sometimes to be, to be the teacher you need, your students need you to be means that maybe you're a non-cooperative employee. Um, and I know that that is a little bit risky to say, but I think that there are a lot of things that we are asked to do as teachers that aren't about good teaching and aren't necessarily good for us or our students. And the resistance, to me, becomes how can I be compliant to get leadership off my back in a way that minimizes my effort so I can create the time- to create classrooms where kids wanna be there. Um, and there were times that I just was a non-compliant employee. I'm like, "Sorry, principal, I'm just not gonna do that." And it puts me at odds. Like, I, again, I don't want any of you to get fired. Like, you have mortgages and kids and families, and I live out of a box truck and don't have kids. And so there's-

Vanessa Vakharia 16:05

A lot to unpack here.

Chase Orton 16:06

There's a lot to unpack. Um, but I, I, I, I, I know that-

Vanessa Vakharia 16:12

But I feel you. This is- Yeah like, I mean, this is our similarity probably, where we're like, the red tape makes us both cray cray.

Chase Orton 16:19

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:19

Right? Yeah. So I get it. But, but realistically- Sure I feel being a non-compliant employee might be... Is there a middle ground? Right? Because, because I hear what you're saying, and also, I think there probably is, right? There are... 'cause I think we have to hold two truths, which is we want kids to enjoy math. We want to follow the flow. We want to have room for these learning experiences. We don't wanna be so rigid, but we do... There are, like, they need to, like, learn certain things, for example. Because you know what? Compliant or not, we don't wanna send them to the next grade teacher not knowing the things that they're supposed to know. That's not just, we don't wanna do that as peoples. And then is there a way to do both? Like, is there a way to follow the flow of the whatever your lesson is going to and somehow bring them back? Like, what's the vibe?

Chase Orton 17:02

The inclusive response is to try to say that maybe there's a middle way, and I think everybody in this room is figuring that out. I want to be a little bit more subversive and just say no. Like, I, I... you need to learn this for next year's math class is not a valid argument that is gonna win students over. And I, I invite us to push back on that and to really think about, is, is it worth spending eight weeks in Algebra 1 doing quadratic- is that a what well you, well wor- a worthwhile use of our time as, as adults and, and what we're asking students to think about but you gotta teach it, but I'm also wondering, like, is it worth it? And- what can be the other things that don't cause math trauma that are more interesting and more invigorating for us to teach as teachers? And I know that I'm a little bit on the fringe, on the outsider of this. Um, and I'm blessed for the work that I have to be able to work with amazing teachers in an amazing system like Leander, and I've been this is my wrapping up 20 days here- Yeah and I've got eight more next year. Bring me to your site. I hope we get to keep teaching together. And it's been, like, familiar faces are a precious thing, and so I'm deeply grateful for the familiar faces that I see in this room from my workshops, but also from teaching together. and I would like to keep that going, and I, I enjoy the community, but I also get to be a critic.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:35

Yeah, I think that's maybe the, the role. Like, maybe I'm asking even the wrong question because that's the whole thing is you, and probably me too, hence why I don't teach in a classroom, would be like, "I can't, I- I don't wanna say I can't, but I'm like, you're kind of like, "Well, I don't want to." Like, that's my- Yeah. We all have our lines, right, of things where we're like, where we, this is where we're willing to cross the line, this is where we're not. And that is why we have amazing teachers that are not us actually teaching math, right? Because you, they're, they're able to be like, "Okay, I can actually see the middle path," and maybe that's it. I think sometimes, too, for things to change, you do hear something polarizing, like, coming from you, where you're like, "Well, here's what I would do. I would every single day let the lesson take me wherever it wanted to go." And maybe someone's listening and is like, "Cool. Like, that's too much for me." "But maybe I could do that, like, 5% of the time." Sure. "And maybe that would move the dial."

Audience 19:30

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:31

I mean, I think it's kind of unreasonable that every single person just throw it all to the wind, given the system that, like, there is a system

Chase Orton 19:38

Yeah. Uh, I don't think I, I And I'm coming at this from a high school perspective. Sure. But, like, there's so much crap in the high school standards- Yeah that is just, it's like we're guaranteeing the kids are leaving high school with a negative opinion about math. In part because the content that we're forced to teach. And I, I would invite teachers to push back on that, but now we need to substitute it with mathematic tasks that are worth thinking about, that are interesting. And this is where I like Peter's non-curricular tasks, right? Interesting puzzles and problems that, that promote sense-making and perseverance and, and, but they're not neatly aligned to the standards. They're aligned to the standards for mathematical practice or your TEKs. What do you call them here? TEKs. TEKs, right. But not the content TEKs. The process. The pro- The process proc- process. That's what you call them? Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:27

Give me an ex- Okay I feel like an outsider.

Chase Orton 20:29

Uh- I literally am, but like- I-

Audience 20:31

It's the how.

Chase Orton 20:32

It's the Right. So in-

Vanessa Vakharia 20:33

Give me one example.

Chase Orton 20:34

Well, in the, the Common Core, I don't know if Big Brother heard me say that phrase here on The Great State of Texas.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:40

It is a podcast.

Chase Orton 20:40

But I would imagine that in the process standards, there is something about perseverance, making sense of problems and persevering and solving. That we will, uh, critique argument, construct arguments, and critique the reasoning of others. We will pay attention to precision, and value that. We'll look for structure and how can we use repeated reasoning. And it doesn't matter if you're a Common Core state or not, every state, Florida's got the seven best. Um, you've got your TEKs process standards. Common Core has their standards for mathematical practice.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:09

There's like a version of it everywhere. And the- I get it

Chase Orton 21:11

it is your how, and it's 50% of what we do, right? And, and, but all we s- talk about is our content and test scores and exit tickets and data, data, data that-

Vanessa Vakharia 21:23

You're stressing people out. I can see people going into a- Ah state right now. Right? And like- I feel we need to pause and do some breathing for you. I,

Chase Orton 21:31

I, I mean, I, I really, I'm worried about our profession. I only made it 12 years as a teacher. Uh, we can get down to the road why I chose to leave the classroom. Yes. Um- We will. Okay. Yeah. Thank you. Maybe, maybe interview two. Um, we'll see. But I will say that I didn't know how to be the teacher I wanted to be without burning my candle at both ends. And so I didn't know how- To do it, and, and I never went into math teaching because I loved math. I liked school and the problem of building community and motivating people to be curious and empower each other. I just was okay at high school math, and then that was some job s- security. Like, it was a lot easier to get a math teaching position than an English teaching position, which is what my degree was in. and I just It wasn't about the math. It was about the problem of how do I get people to feel empowered and support- each other. And, so for me, I come at it at a very different angle.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:30

Okay. Great math- Um- Great math pun, though, that you just threw in there. I know. Yeah, sure. Mr. English. Okay.

Chase Orton 22:35

It was totally, totally accidental.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:36

Hold on. I gotta say a couple things. Okay. 'Cause I actually think this is so touching.

If you can't move the mountain, move a stone

Vanessa Vakharia 22:41

There's a few things you said that I'm like, "Let's not actually gloss over these things." First of all, you two Well, y- I feel Although our whole podcast is us discovering how not that different we are, because I was telling the last group I just did a talk with, I mean, for me, I I'm a math teacher because math is what gave me my wings to realize what I was capable of, because I failed it so much and was told I couldn't do it. Sure. And when I busted through it, I was like, "Wow, this is a beautiful gateway." I do love math. Yeah. But I became a math teacher to show kids exactly what you're talking about, is I wanted to show them empowerment- through beating the odds, through problem-solving, through discovering what's possible. But I wanna go back a step further to what you just said about the TEKS or the practices or non-curricular. 'Cause I actually think you're not giving yourself enough credit, you're saying, you know, the non-curricular tasks and I just didn't know how to do it, and like this and that, and like whatever, screw the curriculum. You didn't say... These are not your words. But- what I, I actually call these, what you guys are calling TEKS, and practices, and standards, I call math adjacent practices. Which is any sort of skill that is also useful in math class, problem-solving, perseverance, like grit, productive struggle, um, perspective, creativity, any of those skills. Because I actually think that when we teach those skills in a math class, we are... You know when people are like, "But you need math for real life." I'm always like, "You need those skills for real life." Yeah. Right? Like, those are the skills. But the thing is, when you teach a non-curricular task, or something non-curricular, or you let your lesson go a bit off the rails, but you are still learning all of those things and teaching all of those k- things. Those are a p- not only applicable when it comes to something more curricular or content driven. So now they take, like, "Oh, I took a risk. Oh, I thought creatively. Oh, I problem solved, and now we're learning quadrat- we're literally learning the quadratic algorithm, and I can use those, so it is useful." I actually think it does something more, which I think it shows kids there are these moments of joy. There are moments of joy in this classroom and I belong here. Now, when I have to do something that's boring, I am more likely to feel like I can do it- and that I want to do it. And I say this because think about going to the gym. Or do you work out? Sorry, that's personal.

Chase Orton 24:53

No,

Vanessa Vakharia 24:53

no. Do you like... You don't know? Or like, like, okay, fine, you drive around, right, in your van?

Chase Orton 25:02

Sure, sure. Do you... Okay, right? It's a truck, but yes. Sorry, I'm so sorry. It is a truck.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:07

Sorry. Uh, yeah, I, I- Okay, you, but you like to drive, right?

Chase Orton 25:09

I'm

Vanessa Vakharia 25:09

an adult, so. You like to drive.

Chase Orton 25:10

I

Vanessa Vakharia 25:10

do like road trips, yes. But aren't there parts on road trips that suck? Like a really boring-

Chase Orton 25:14

Yeah, Kansas is pretty bad. West Texas is, you know, like-

Vanessa Vakharia 25:19

I don't got the joke. What's in Kansas?

Chase Orton 25:22

Nothing. Oh. Okay. It's the same thing. Okay. It's like whenever you find yourself near Lubbock, Texas, like you're just- I mean, no offense to Lubbock. It's just- But it's, it's... West Texas is, is also-

Vanessa Vakharia 25:34

A bit bland.

Chase Orton 25:35

Bit bland.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:36

Okay, so guys, though, but stay with my analogy here. If- Yeah you like dr-... There's lots of great parts about a road trip, and there's a lot of parts that kinda suck. But it makes that Kansas or whatever you guys are saying it makes Kansas more bearal- bearable because you're like, "I'm gonna get through Kansas. I've gotta get there, to get from point A to point B, and then I'll be in..." I do not know the geography of this country. "Then I'll be in this cooler place where there's stuff to look at." I see what's happening in math class when you do what you're suggesting the same way. Like, sometimes the lesson gets off the rails. Sometimes we do something non-curricular and you discover this cool thing about yourself or about math. Now, when you have to do the thing that's boring, you're more likely to be like, "All right, fine. This is just a part of the thing." But the overall thing doesn't suck. Okay, I think I brought it home on that metaphor. What are we thinking? Okay. Well, that took a lot. So- Thank you. Thank you.

Chase Orton 26:24

So you're saying, like, to build some joy to, to, to carry us through the dry times of math class.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:30

Yes. And I, and- Sure what I'm saying is you... Like, be- because the way you're talking about it is you're like, "Whatever, that's the only way I can do it," is like, "I be non-compliant. I don't know how to find the middle way." But I think this is the middle way, is to be like, like Brian Buchalter, I remember hearing him speak once, and he says, "If you can't move a mountain, move a stone." Yes. If you can't change the entire system, move a stone. And every time you create these moments of joy, like you're suggesting, you're moving a stone, and it makes a difference. And w- fine, maybe we didn't redo the whole system. We didn't scrap the whole, all the content. Yeah. But, like, you're doing something. And I think it, I Like, yes, I'm talking about the student, but I think for you as a teacher, you also are like, "All right, some days I can just have fun and do whatever. Some days I've got to drive through Kansas."

Chase Orton 27:12

Yeah. I, I, I don't know how many different states we can offend people from right now. So I need, I need to owe the citizens of Lubbock, Texas, and also Kansas, Nebraska, and um- those states an apology, but, uh, forgive me. Um-

Vanessa Vakharia 27:28

But, like, you know what I mean.

Chase Orton 27:29

Yeah. Yes, and I, I-

Vanessa Vakharia 27:32

Or no, you don't agree

Chase Orton 27:34

I invite us to think about the times in our calendar that we really can control. My favorite time is after standardized testing, right? Okay, great. So I've got... And we did it early in my school, like end of April, and so I've got May, I've got six weeks. I'm gonna make that the juiciest, wonderful math experience. I'm going to pull out my best tasks. I've got seniors who are so damaged with their math therapy that this is my last chance that I can change their inflection. And I wanna teach what I wanna teach. I wanna teach about different ways that we can count votes, and voting systems, and the mathematics of democracy, and thinking about that richness. And how do we organize, like thinking about Euler paths and Euler circuits and graph theory, and stuff that removes algebra as the obstacle, and we're in these discrete mathematics kind of topics. Uh, so I invite, like for us as teachers, we've got, you know, the pacing plan. I know you all. You know exactly what you're teaching on April 17th next year. 10 years. Right? Yeah. It is. Really? And you're always on it. Like, you, and I need to celebrate you, but I'm also a little alarmed because you're so on accurate. You're so accurate Like, and I'm like, does, does, does it ever not go according to plan? And like maybe get a little bit behind. But, um-

Vanessa Vakharia 28:52

You all- He has no earth in his top three in his birth chart, just so you know. Ah. It's all water and fire signs.

Chase Orton 28:58

We're going down.

Vanessa Vakharia 28:59

This is, this is explaining a lot, I think. Zero earth elements.

Chase Orton 29:03

Ungrounded.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:04

Okay, keep going

"It's a great day in math class when my students ..."

Vanessa Vakharia 29:05

though.

Chase Orton 29:05

Um, and so I just invite us to think about the times in our schedule, and to think about our, our legacy as teachers. We, we are not gonna be remembered for our test scores. We are not gonna be remembered like, "I'm so glad that I had Mrs. So-and-so, and she prepared me for factoring fourth degree polynomials by teaching me how to factor second degree polynomials. And I'm really grateful for the experience." And, uh, you know, I, I... we remembered about, this is part of your book, like unfortunately we're remembered for the need for math therapy, right? And the trauma we have caused. And I, I really want us to get grounded in, in our purpose as, as teachers and why we do this work. And, and, um, I begin with that prompt that's over there on the board. If you've been to my worksheets, worksheets. Workshops. Uh, it is, "It's a great day of teaching when I see, hear, or feel my students blank in math class." And so I ask teachers that all the time.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:00

Should we do it right now?

Chase Orton 30:01

Uh, well, w- we- Now. I, sure. I don't know. It's your show. It's your show. We got 27 minutes. I don't know how the audience is doing. My butt's getting a little numb and-

Vanessa Vakharia 30:11

Oh my God.

Chase Orton 30:12

Uh, so I don't know how they're doing out there.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:15

You're such a high maintenance guest.

Chase Orton 30:16

Do we need... All right. All right. I, I, I mean, I'm just sipping my coffee.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:22

Um- Okay. Why don't you tell... I mean, let's, let's, I wanna do a quick little- Sure a little poll. "It's a great day of teaching when I hear, see, or feel my students blank."

Chase Orton 30:32

It, see, hear, or feel my students blank in math class. Okay, let- If you're not a math teacher, any class.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:36

Okay. Wait- However you want let someone, like, share something.

Audience 30:41

Laugh.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:43

Laugh? It's a great day if my students laugh. I love that. Let's hear another one. I- Yes.

Audience 30:48

Uh, explain something to another student.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:50

Explain something to another student. I agree. That's so That's nice. I agree. You agree? Okay, let's get one more.

Audience 30:59

Collaboration.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:00

Okay, collaborate. When I see my students collaborate. And yeah, go ahead.

Audience 31:03

Gain confidence.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:04

Gain confidence. Those are beautiful things.

Chase Orton 31:07

Uh- Vanessa, what I care about are test scores. And my principal has said that we need to have a 20% increase of our test scores- or we're gonna go on double secret probation- with the state of Texas, and we're gonna lose our accreditation, and I might get fired unless I get these test scores up. So I don't have time for collaboration. I don't have time for laughter. I don't have time for peer-to-peer teaching. I need to bring up my standardized test scores. That's-

Vanessa Vakharia 31:37

I feel uncomfortable right now.

Chase Orton 31:41

I, I'm being, I'm being devil's advocate. So where is the middle road between what I am saying and then what you have said? And I don't know what that path looks like. I don't I, I s- I work with so many teachers that are feeling the pressure about standardized test scores. And if they don't go up, they're not a good teacher, and they're gonna get on the pr- principal's poop list, and then they're on notice, and then- it's teachers, like, we don't always have a lot of power. Like, I've been in LA Unified where a mean principal can really screw over a teacher. Like, "Well, we can't fire you, but we can transfer you 30 miles down the road and make your commute an hour each day, each way." And, and they do that for They i, anyway, so I, I just, as teachers, uh, we do have to look out for ourselves and our career and what's important. This is my whole shtick. We want this. It fills us up.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:35

Yeah.

Chase Orton 32:36

Right? It is a great day of teaching when your kids come in and they're like, "Oh my gosh, what are we doing today? What do you got for us today?"

Vanessa Vakharia 32:41

Yeah.

Chase Orton 32:42

Right? And we That fills us up, right? But if they're coming in with apathy, and they're coming in with the, a negative attitude or, or bitterness and anger, and they're just wanna be defiant, like, that can really erode us. And a culture of compliance and following mandates and writing your learning objective on the board every day and making sure kids read it out loud and following all these mandates and worried about test scores and, uh, interim district assessments and state tests, um, that erodes. It gets in the way of what nourishes us, and I think that there's real tension there.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:18

Yeah.

Chase Orton 33:19

And I, I just, I You can read my book. It's, it's a subversive book. I, I don't take it too seriously. You might get fired. I don't want you to do that, but you-

Vanessa Vakharia 33:27

Definitely the episode title, I cannot wait. "Listen to this episode and you might get fired." That's such good copy.

Who does standardized testing benefit?

Vanessa Vakharia 33:39

I hear you. I'm hearing you. Sure. Okay? I am. I'm wondering, and this is, like, a genuine question. This is not me, like, be- because I actually don't know. So first of all, in Canada, we do not have standardized testing, okay? So I'm just gonna start by saying, oh my God, that everyone just sighed. Yeah. I can marry all of you. Like, I'm, I'm down. Make me an offer, I can't refuse. Um, no. I say that because obviously I'm in a different situation here- Sure because there isn't that pressure. But let's, but there is the, like, you know, just what the system is designed for, let's be honest, is a sorting mechanism to get students from point A to point B, and right, the sorting right now is for them to graduate high school and then to go to college or university, whatever their thing is, right? Like, this is the point.

Chase Orton 34:26

Sure, or trade school or- Yeah drop out or-

Vanessa Vakharia 34:28

a sorting thing. I only say that to say, so let me just ask you this. In, like, this situation where you're like, "I can't see how we can do both," we're, we are in a bit of a pickle because we are all in the system. I really believe, and I think you also believe, otherwise you wouldn't be doing this work, that there are ways to be complicit in a system while rebelling against it, right? We are, we are all doing things that are moving the needle a bit, like, moving the dial while acknowledging, like, they, we are also preparing kids for whatever they need to do. Until we are no longer in the system, which is the moving a mountain, what is the move here? Because, like, if you're kind of, like, y- preparing for a standardized test is eroding them and it's, like, cr- which, yes, it totally is. What is the alternative, to, like, never prepare them for the standardized test?

Chase Orton 35:23

Is to get them to fall in love with mathematics, to have math joy.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:26

But how do they, but, but how do they, like, literally l- learn the thing on the test they have to write?

Chase Orton 35:32

I, I don't know if that's a question worth a- asking and answering in my time on this earth

Vanessa Vakharia 35:38

Oh my God.

Chase Orton 35:38

I recognize that other people might wanna be, "How do we prepare kids for this test?" I have asked I've been in that spot figuring it out, and I just, I don't think it's time well spent as a human being. Our time here is short, and I know, I, I know, I, I Some Uh, I know that there are some leaders in this room are like, "Chase, you know, just, sh-"

Vanessa Vakharia 36:02

No, but I think it's fine for you to say because that's not your job.

Chase Orton 36:05

Sure.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:05

It's actually fine. Like, you, you say whatever you- Um Like, that's like a musician being like, "I don't b-," like, "I don't know how to teach math." Like, fine. Like, that's not your actual job. Your job isn't preparing someone for a test. It's creating joy in these classrooms- Sure and that's what you do well.

Chase Orton 36:17

Sure.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:17

And that's fine.

Chase Orton 36:18

But I, I wanna call out So you're Canadian, yes? Yeah. Toronto.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:23

Is

Chase Orton 36:23

that what you're calling out? Toronto-based. No. I'm calling out how much money do the taxpayers of the United States turn over to testing agencies- that you do not as a country. You invest in probably hu- humans- being better teachers, and what's going Uh, maybe, maybe I'm sure as a Canadian on the inside you see some of the illnesses-

Vanessa Vakharia 36:44

Well, I actually don't know. I want you to tell me what. I actually don't even know. But

Chase Orton 36:47

I don't, I don't know what the line-by-line item is for Somebody in this room perhaps may know, or somebody in the district knows what Leander is paying-

Vanessa Vakharia 36:55

Oh my God

Chase Orton 36:55

for- This has got to be- all of the whatevers crazy And it's not just Leander. It's, it's, it's all the It's, it's California. It's, it's the LA Unified. It's, it's You, you, your p- statement is powerful. We don't have standardized testing. That means that there isn't a b- multibillion-dollar industry driving up profits funded by taxpayers. And I know money's tight here in Leander, and it's tight all over Texas, and it's tight all over the country. but it's not tight if you're i-Ready, right? And, and whatever the And Pearson and their, those testing companies. Like, what wou- could we do with that capital- if we didn't turn it over to freaking numbers on a screen, and yellow data, red data, green data that tells us the same thing that we always know all the time, which is our disadvantaged populations don't do as well as our advantaged populations. And we're spending billions of dollars just to remind ourselves of that truth. And this is part of the nefarious stuff that was happening, um, with the Nation at Risk in the early '80s, which got totally That research got distorted and changed. And then with No Child Left Behind and the focus on accountability and assessment was really just laying a foundation of a profit-driven model around test scores. Okay. And I, yeah, I don't get... I get fired up about it. Well- I might get a, a little uncomfortable in the seat, but- I, I get really uncomfortable.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:25

No, but this is good.

Chase Orton 38:25

I get, I get... My blood boils about the profit. Yeah. And who's it for? It's not for us as teachers. Test scores do not... You, uh, Alan, you was sharing, you got your test scores back, yeah? And collectively they went up, right? They're like colle- but did you get any meaningful data on an individual student that helps you grow as a teacher? maybe, and I would love to know that or not. But I, I, test scores, they don't nourish our passion for the work that we do. They don't tell us how to grow. It's not the data that we need to be looking at, and this is where Peter and engagement and thinking and BTC really is helpful about shifting what are we looking at in a classroom? What are we, what are, what data are we really valuing? And yes, ultimately, we want our students to learn more content. We want them to solve problems that they couldn't solve before, and demonstrate that they actually learned some math this year. uh, w- we want that, but it's also, we operate continually in the street data Shane Safir, right, another Corwin author talks about, and this human data that I talk about. Like, that's the world that we live in. Yeah. That's what you all cited, right? Like, it, it's not, nobody in here is like, "Man, I really love it when kids are just crushing it on their i-Ready diagnostic assessments." Like- I've never seen it, but I've seen it up in the faculty lounge, right?

Vanessa Vakharia 39:43

Link to i-Ready in the show notes, everyone.

Chase Orton 39:46

You know? i-Ready, well, my problem with i-Ready, and I, here goes my opportunity to ever work for them, and I never would.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:52

This is on a podcast, I'm just letting you know.

Chase Orton 39:53

It's fine. Okay, go. They, they sell curriculum-

Vanessa Vakharia 39:56

Yeah, go for it

Chase Orton 39:57

that is crap. Um, if you were in my animal shelter lesson, have you seen my animal... that is i-Ready's math curriculum. And then they create curriculum that creates, encourages bad pedagogy, that creates math classes that don't work for kids, that then gets diagnosed by their own assessment, right? And then so it's a little bit like big pharma creating the disease and then selling us the cure, um, and profiting on both sides. And so i-Ready in particular I, I struggle with because they are both assessment and, and curriculum at the same time.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:29

Isn't that most curriculum companies? Or no? Uh- We, again, we don't have curriculum companies. Yeah, you- And that's the other thing.

Chase Orton 40:35

Yeah, I know. You, how much money do we spend on textbooks?

Vanessa Vakharia 40:39

Yeah, it's a totally different system.

Chase Orton 40:40

Stop, y'all.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:41

When we use the word curriculum in Canada, it means content. So that's why when I'm like, "Get through the curriculum," I'm like, "Eh," I mean content. We don't have this whole system. Oh. You know what is funny? That, sorry, do you wanna keep going?

Chase Orton 40:53

Yeah. I- Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:54

Please do.

Chase Orton 40:54

I mean, yeah. Where's my soapbox? I'll put a soapbox on a soapbox. Um, I, I do wor- I, I, uh, I, I have deep friends or dear friends that work with for-profit companies like Savvas and- and other organ- uh, Amplify and other organizations that, are thinly veiled profit-driven models toward profiting off of taxpayers' money.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:19

I don't know how thinly veiled it is

Chase Orton 41:20

Okay. This-

Vanessa Vakharia 41:22

Right?

Chase Orton 41:22

Well- Like thinly veiled means it's barely veiled.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:25

But I feel like-

Chase Orton 41:26

It's not veiled at all

Vanessa Vakharia 41:27

it's not... Oh, right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We're, we're- What you're saying, yeah

Chase Orton 41:30

yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:31

I'm like, "It's pretty obvious." Um, and, and

Chase Orton 41:33

I, and this, I mean, this screws me out of any sort of cushy job with, with a-

Vanessa Vakharia 41:37

But you don't want one anyway

Chase Orton 41:39

No, but it's-

Vanessa Vakharia 41:40

You're an, you're an, what did you say? You're not, a non-compliant employee

Chase Orton 41:43

I'm a critic. Yeah, yeah. So I- Yeah yeah, it's fine I'm a critic. And, um, it puts me at odds with some of my friends sometimes. and I'm very lucky to have the work that I have. I'm very grateful for the journey that I've been on, as weird as it's been. And I am blessed, so I don't want my cynicism toward the system we work in to be ungrateful for my position. It is such a privilege to work with you all.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:08

Um- I don't think we're reading it that way. Okay, good. I w- I think we're reading it as you're passionate about w- in your role, what you're... We all have different strengths that we bring to the profession. Okay? Like- Yeah your strength might not be working in the classroom, in compliance, but your strength is bringing joy and showing us moments where we can be subversive within the classrooms that we're in to create something that is missing in math education, and that's what you do very well.

How do we stay motivated instead of cynical?

Vanessa Vakharia 42:34

I don't think you're coming across as cynical- like, in the way of, like, "Oh, he's just jaded and cynical." I think you're coming across as you're very passionate because you see a problem that could be solved, and instead of solving it, many stakeholders are perpetuating it. And that's what it's coming across as to me, and I think it's probably refreshing for us to all be able to nod and be silent and not have our names attached to this rant- when most of us agree. So you, thank you for, for being an ally.

Chase Orton 43:03

Sure, sure.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:03

And you know what is really funny? We actually, like, somehow only have 10 minutes and I wanna open up to questions.

Chase Orton 43:08

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia 43:08

yeah. Go for it. No, but before I do, I do have to note this full circle. I don't know if you guys have been noticing our dynamic. We started with this, of you b- of ta- you talking about ambiguity. And I was like, "Yeah, yeah". It is so clear that I'm so uncomfortable with ambiguity, 'cause I keep trying to find a resolution, and being like- No, no "But can you just tell them, like- There's no way couldn't we just..." And you keep being like- No "No. There is no- there is no solution." And I'm like, "You're not, we need to wrap this up in a bow. We've gotta give them something to walk away with. We have to give them something hopeful." And you're kind of sitting in it, being like, "Today, as of the recording of this podcast, there is no solution." And I think, like, I'm learning my lesson of being like, "Wow," like, my need to, my, like, fawn response and need to just have everyone being happy and to have everything good sometimes does get in the way of me being like, "Nope, we still have a problem, and we still need to work on it." So I feel kind of like I'm being a bit served here.

Chase Orton 44:04

Uh, okay. You're... I, I mean, I... turning it over to the crowd. I, I would... Just my last thing, becoming the teacher you wanna be, you can't do it alone. Uh, and we do not have the culture of professionalism. We do not have the tenacious community of support, the trustworthy relationships we need to, to help each other grow. But the best professional development is happening in the classroom right next to you, and it doesn't have to be a same grade level teacher. It doesn't even have to be a math teacher. But just going, watching a teacher do their thing in class, and struggle, and toil, and, and thrive, and have success, I... It's the best use of our professional pupil-free time is just watching math class from... or math class or class in general from the student perspective. And I don't... I've just learned that we as teachers, when we have that, help me see what I can't see for myself, right? Like, if we had worked together for five years, you would pretty... be pretty clear about my blind, blind spots, right? And I yours. Right? And helping each other see what we can't see for ourselves.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:11

Yeah.

Chase Orton 45:12

So I, I give each other grace. Find the people that are gonna help you thrive. We are all imperfect. And just remembering that as however you make your meaning as a teacher, um, that you support each other, and, and you love each other, and you help each other grow and thrive. And, it's on us. Like, I, I... There is no them that are gonna come save us as teachers. It's on us to really support each other and lift each other up, and that's all I'm gonna say on that. Uh, I'm gonna turn it over to you. Questions, turn to talks, whatever you wanna, yada, yada, yada. Pear Square. Oh.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:54

What are we doing? What are we doing? What are we doing? Thank you so much. Okay. Beautiful. Okay, this is, this is... Okay, let's, let's conclude. First of all,

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 46:05

that was so fun.

Chase Orton 46:06

Yeah, it was a good time.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:07

I honestly think, for the districts, if you're watching this and you're like, "What are we doing with our lives?" You are doing something groundbreaking. You are. Okay? 'Cause this is the first time we've done a session like this, and just because somebody's saying it out loud doesn't mean no one was already thinking it. Okay? So, like, let's just clear, have that there.

Chase Orton 46:23

Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:24

You're so great. You're so- You all are great uncomfortable right now. Uh, yay. Like, do you wanna get up and stretch? Okay, here's what we're gonna do. We are gonna end this recording, okay? Thank you guys so much for being here. Let's do an applause for the recording. Whoo. Guys, oh my God, our first ever live applause. How insane is that? And I didn't even, like, hold up one of those signs instructing the audience to, like, applaud now. But oh my God, that's a great idea for next time now that I've thought about it. This interview really left me feeling the weight of what all educators are feeling right now. I heard it not only from Chase, but from over 50 of you that were in the room, and it left me wondering, what do we do with, like, the intense, unrelenting, and totally warranted anger we feel at the system we're all in, a system that often makes it so, so hard to be the teachers we were born to be? I wanna hear from you. How do you cope? How do you thrive? How do you flourish when that frustration, sadness, and anger is present? Text the podcast by hitting the Text Us link in your show notes or DM me on Instagram. My handle is @themathguru. And if you have any thoughts on how I can make the next Math Therapy Live episode even better, because there will be more, text me your thoughts as well. And guys, thank you all for being along for this wild ride. We've got big things coming this year, including a giveaway for the new Texas Instruments EVO calculator, which will happen in one of the next two episodes this month. So follow, subscribe, and tune in every week, and thank you for being here.