Intro

Amy Johnston 0:02

vulnerability is a superpower. when you weave in your own personal experience to a teaching moment, it can connect and it can deepen. to be able to soften people's bodies, have a laugh, bring some levity to the moment, actually allows them to learn better. Math is fundamental to the universe, so everyone has it in you. use it as an entry point to understand yourself more.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:35

Guys, oh my God, hello, and welcome to Math Therapy. Welcome to all of our new listeners. I'm so glad you found this podcast, and so glad you're here. And that's why this week I'm doing two things. First, I'm beyond excited for you to hear this week's interview, which was very, very special for me. Second, I'm doing another giveaway for the new TI Evo during this episode. But this time there's a fun little twist. Now, before I tell you about it, I've got to explain why this episode is so special. You're going to hear from one of my best friends, and one of the most incredible therapists I know, Amy Johnston. As you guys know, I have long been a believer that as educators, we are healers. And in order to heal to the best of our abilities, it helps to learn from other healers in their own trade. I mean, my book and this podcast are called Math Therapy, like therapy. And as we learn, we only grow stronger in being able to heal math trauma and help all students build healthier relationships with math. Amy and I explore how negative early math experiences shape identity and persist into adulthood, and we get into the nuts and bolts of exactly how it happens, and more importantly, what to do about it. Amy is insightful, genuine, and pragmatic, and drops practical strategies for both students and teachers struggling with their own math anxiety inside and outside of the classroom. Like, you're gonna be able to use these strategies right now, even though it's summer, to become a stronger teacher in the fall. You're gonna walk away from this episode with a perspective shift and at least one thing that changes the way you see yourself or your students. And most of all, guys, you're going to walk away feeling more hopeful, I promise. And now, for the reason I know at least a few of you are here, don't lie, it's totally fine, I see you, this episode is sponsored by Texas Instruments, which means we are doing another giveaway. Okay, so in case you missed it, which, like, I don't know how you could have because the internet is blowing up with this news, TI just dropped their newest calculator, the TI-84 Evo, and people are going gaga goo goo bananas for it. Like, we're talking Taylor Swift ticket pre-sale level cray, and I am here for it. Now, there are many reasons to be obsessed, but one of the things people are drooling over is the streamlined keypad, which features, wait for it, a dedicated fraction key. If you know, you know. You heard me, no more shift this or second function that. It's all there in its own key. Now, to celebrate, we are giving away an Oh My Math box, which includes a brand-new TI-84 Evo with a four-year online calculator license, a getting started guide, a calendar, and an absolutely adorable plushie calculator keychain in a mystery color. Now for the twist. How do you win this epic Oh My Math box? At some point during my interview with Amy, I'm going to share a code with you, and to enter the giveaway, all you have to do is text the podcast using the link in your app. Okay? There's a link that says text us. Use that link, text me the code, and I'll randomly pick a winner by June 26th. And just like that, the new TI-84 Evo is yours. Okay, are we clear? Are we ready? Are we pumped? I know I am, so let's get this show on the road.

We need to assume students have positive intent

Vanessa Vakharia 3:44

Amy, welcome to the podcast.

Amy Johnston 3:46

Thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:47

Amy is one of my absolute best friends, and my free therapist. Because she is... well, I've asked her to be my therapist a million times, but it is apparently not, you can't be-

Amy Johnston 3:55

'Cause I wanted to be your friend.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:57

Right, exactly. And you can't therapize your friends for money.

Amy Johnston 4:00

Yes. Okay. Correct.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:02

But because I talk to Amy so much about my own trauma and my own problems, I really wanted to have you on, to talk about math trauma in the very skilled way that I hear you help me every day.

Amy Johnston 4:16

Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:17

So I know I was gonna say how new is the term math trauma, but it's not 'cause you hear me talk about it all the time.

Amy Johnston 4:22

I remember when I first met you and checked out your Instagram and saw you, campaigning on the street about it. I- I was like, "Whoa. Who's this girl?" And I thought it was wonderful. And it, I mean, like so many people, even just when I tell them about you, it brought me to my own experiences, so

Vanessa Vakharia 4:41

Oh, my God. Tell us about your own experiences.

Amy Johnston 4:43

it was just one of, like f- French and math I struggled. I had to take applied and that all, like, in high school, and that created its own challenge. Like, I just felt really ashamed of that.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:57

Mm.

Amy Johnston 4:58

And I was definitely a drifter. I couldn't stay in the moment. The thing that stands out the most is my teacher from high school, his wife had him on a diet.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:13

Okay.

Amy Johnston 5:14

And he would give us extra points if we went and got him a Krispy Kreme.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:19

Oh, my G- What are you saying? Amy, what?

Amy Johnston 5:22

But he was actually so wonderful. So, like, this created, like, this, like, hilarious dynamic. And then also, he was very kind. He would allow us to take the test home on the weekend and do it again, and anything that we got right we would get half the points more. So-

Vanessa Vakharia 5:39

Oh, my God, he was really ahead of his time

Amy Johnston 5:41

I really took advantage of that. And, um, He was incredibly open about the fact that, like, it's stressful for people.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:48

Okay. First of all, I'm curious how many Krispy Kremes he would get, like, on a period.

Amy Johnston 5:53

I mean, definitely one from me almost every day.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:56

Oh, my God. So, like, his d- his, was his wife like, "How is your diet not fucking working?" "Like, you're gaining so much weight."

Amy Johnston 6:01

I'm sure. Yeah. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:03

Like, that's, the math is not mathing on that. Um, I'm... Okay, I wanna back up because I, when he let you take those tests home-

Amy Johnston 6:12

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 6:12

did you cheat?

Amy Johnston 6:13

No. No. I really wanted to learn, and I also really cared about- my marks. I went to an arts school. You had to keep a certain mark to stay in the arts program. Oh. So it was, like, high stakes for everyone, the, all my peers. Um-

Vanessa Vakharia 6:26

What was the mark you needed to keep?

Amy Johnston 6:28

I think a 70. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, I distinctly remember being in my own space at home being able to make more sense of things.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:41

This is so fascinating because that was 20 years ago?

Amy Johnston 6:45

Yeah, it would've been, like, 2003, two.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:49

Which is so wild because we were so not doing that then, and it's interesting now. Like, I know you probably aren't familiar with all the things happening in math education, but one of the practices that I'm really trying to encourage and that other educators are trying to encourage is this idea of giving alternate forms of assessment because we, there was a recogni- a recognition that in a classroom setting, in a timed test- you are not performing- Yeah at, you know, you're not performing the way you could be performing. Totally. Right? Like- Yeah it's like your working memory is often hijacked. Like, your amygdala is like, wah, whatever. Like- Yeah right? 'Cause that pressure, um, takes over. So it's really cool that he was doing that. And it's also, I kinda want everyone to hear this because sometimes we're like, "Oh, if we give students the chance to retake a test or to take something home or whatever, they're gonna cheat," right? Mm. They're gonna j- And it's really nice to just hear from you that you're like, "No." Like, I... You know, not every student is just trying to, you know, walk their way into a good mark. Mm. Students at the core, like my friend Jamie Mitchell always says, we need to assume positive intent, right? Like, students want to learn.

Amy Johnston 7:56

I love this. This is, uh, I'll have to think more on my experience of that. It, when you were talking it made me think math teachers especially in high school, 'cause that's when it kind of gets a little bit more focused, right? Mm. I think of them, other than this man, I can't remember his name right now, but I think of them as, like, very archetypically, like their identity seemed quite serious. Mm. And I think something about that also would set me off. I felt intimidated by all of them except for him.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:25

Wow. Yeah. And again, like, I think educators need to hear that. Yeah. Right? That it's like, it's, I mean, who knows, it, like, hindsight is not always 20/20, but it is in some respects. So it's like, Yeah, I mean, like, I remember all of my teachers being, like, 100 years old. Mm. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, that kinda thing, where it's just like... 'Cause you're seeing them in relationship to you, right? At, at that time. So it's like, whether they are serious or not whether they consider themselves serious or not, there is this whole vibe that precedes the math teacher that I think we ha- as educators have to be aware of. Yeah. Right? Like, it's, like, up to us to soften that.

Amy Johnston 9:00

That's interesting.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:01

Now, I wanna kinda go back to you being, like, being in applied in and of itself- set up an entire narrative. Question: Did you choose to go into applied or were you put in there?

Amy Johnston 9:11

I chose.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:12

Okay, you chose So you chose to go into applied, and you were saying that that in and of itself created a story in your mind.

Amy Johnston 9:19

Definitely. Well, you know, hopefully this has changed a little bit, but I think it just made me feel like I was less intelligent- because especially what math and science, I'll say, like is kind of seen as or was seen as. So that is something-

Vanessa Vakharia 9:34

What were they seen as?

Amy Johnston 9:36

I think probably, the classes that You really needed to have, like, a keen brain, or, like, it was valued more, or, it was harder. Yeah. And I thrived in, in arts and, and writing and, and things like that. And I mean, I went into social work at a time that it was unusual to be an 18-year-old in a social work program. Um, so it took me probably a decade after school to really appreciate, like, my form of intelligence.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:05

My God, I'm just sitting with this of, like, I say this all the time of it is those, the math courses especially that we associate with intelligence. Like, even though it's bullshit. Like, we just, like, made it up. Like, why- Yeah like, I personally think, like, writing an English essay is the hardest thing on the planet. But, like, we call it... It's, like, part of the arts. Like, do you know what I mean? We take it less seriously. It's, like, somehow seen as, like, easier 'cause it's more subjective.

Amy Johnston 10:33

And, like, we are so focused on calling the people who excel in mathematics the smart ones that even if you're, like, a very gifted writer or artist, right? Like, how hard is it to, like, create art? Like, anyways, this idea of hardness and difficulty is interesting. Yeah. Well, it, it, as you're saying that, made me think of, like, it trickled into the, my experience with music theory too because it, it was, like, kind of this combination of, like, I suck at all that, and it just I think what you said earlier about, like, the overwhelm, the new, new way of, I guess, approaching this with kids really makes sense. Like, something about the pressure just made me go offline in my mind.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:17

Do

Does Amy still feel math anxious?

Vanessa Vakharia 11:18

you st- do you still consider yourself someone who's, like, anxious around math now?

Amy Johnston 11:23

yes. I think-

Vanessa Vakharia 11:24

Like, you run your own business.

Amy Johnston 11:25

Yes, I run my own business. I will say, like, to me, there's a little bit of an intersection of money. Like, uh, so I think I've noticed, like, tax season is a str- has been historically a stressor for me.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:42

Everyone stop right now and go listen to the episode I released a few weeks ago called... why smart people still feel out of control and what to do about it. I just, I... all I'm gonna say is go- where I literally start the episode having a full mentee be around tax season. Right. Like, I have an actual meltdown.

Amy Johnston 12:00

Love it.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:01

So this is the perfect... Okay, keep going, though. So, 'cause this is really important, what you're saying. Yeah. Tax season all of a sudden triggers money, and money is related to numbers, which is related to math.

Amy Johnston 12:11

Yep. Well, and I think this- People. I feel like my own leaning towards taking on, let's say, sitting in my discomfort as I'm doing my taxes on my own and really trying to do it without my partner's support or anyone's support, like, it does feel like there's an element of gender as well, that I can only speak to on a personal level, has been, like, my own motivator. Um, I don't wanna be a woman, an adult woman, who can't take care of that stuff for herself.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:45

Mm. I mean, so it's, like, you don't probably even know this, but this is what so much of my research is on. Okay. And it's, everything you experience is completely validated by research. Okay. Just so you know. Beautiful. Yeah. It feels good, right? Yeah. To, like, know that. And that's, like, I think that's why it's important to, like, talk about this stuff, because we feel so isolated, like it's, like, some whole weird thing that we can't explain, but it's like this is all validated by research. There's a very gendered nature to women feeling this sense of out of control-ness- related to finances, that when we dig down, is often related to a math trauma that took place. It's often related to feeling less than in a classroom. By the way, I went to do a school visit, uh, last week. So I went to go visit schools and check out, like, the math therapy vibes in their classrooms, because a lot of these teachers had done math therapy book studies, so they were using the strategies in their classrooms. Went to an AP calculus class, so that is, like, a, you know, students elect to be in those classes. Like, you don't have to take calculus to graduate high school. There was two girls in the class. There was two girls and 18 boys. So even to this day- the gendered nature of math ability persists. It is not e- there, there's so much research that shows it is not because women or girls are less capable of math. They self-select out of math when it is no longer necessary because there's a million messages that tell them they don't belong in that classroom. So, like yeah, I just wanna say, this is such a, such a thing.

Amy Johnston 14:17

It's bringing me to a lot of places in my mind. It's really-

Vanessa Vakharia 14:20

Oh my God, like where?

Amy Johnston 14:21

I think it's just, like, I- I really, like a big part of my work and self-exploration is, is looking back to those moments. I think actually this conversation's helping me realize that that teacher had a really softening effect on me.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:37

What's his name? I can't remember. We should find him. I wonder if he still teaches there.

Amy Johnston 14:40

Maybe he does. He was a lovely man. Um, he was funny and, and light-hearted, and he didn't take himself that seriously, but he was brilliant. Um, so e- even just thinking about his expression of masculinity, let's say- was really playful. but yeah, I'm th- it's making me emotional as you're talking, so I know that this is like, I would like to do some exploring of my own history.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:02

Oh my God. Yeah. Well, I love when someone sets me up for a perfect segue, and you've just done it. Like this is gonna Wait, wait till you guys see how skilled this is. So we're talking

Gender and math anxiety

Vanessa Vakharia 15:12

about the gendered nature of math here, and what we can also talk about is any time I go to a math conference, especially if I'm in a session, an elementary session, math conferences are mostly attended by elementary educators. It's not like there aren't high school teachers there. Of course there are. There's principals, there's high school teachers, there's coaches. They are largely elementary. And I would say a math conference is 80% women.

Amy Johnston 15:36

That's interesting.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:37

Yeah. Most of the teachers that are in the room are women because most elementary teachers are women. Okay? We can probably find a stat on this. Dave, fact-check this for me. I see. Okay. I don't even need a fact-check. Like, I know this is true, but I'd like to know what the actual numbers are. Yeah. But most most elementary school teachers are women, but all elementary teachers have to teach math. Now, you don't know this, and maybe some of our listeners don't if you're not an educator, to be an elementary teacher you do not need any math university courses. To be a high school math teacher, you do need to have taken math at the college university level. Okay? So it's not like there aren't women who are high school math teachers, there are, but think about it this way. All elementary teachers have to teach math. Zero of them need to have taken math post-secondary and 80% of them are women. So what we now have now, and then given our conversation, we know that it is very likely to have an experience around math trauma, which we're gonna unpack in a second, to have an experience around math trauma at some point in school or when you're younger. So now we have these classroom teachers, these elementary teachers, 80% of whom are women, with- anxiety around math that probably in s- in many ways there's a gendered component to it.

Amy Johnston 16:54

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:55

And they're having to every day get up in front of their classroom and teach math, this subject that they do not feel 100% confident with.

Amy Johnston 17:01

Wow.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:02

Yeah. And this is something I did an episode with Heidi Sabnani a couple weeks ago literally about this, called Anxious About Math? You Might Be the Best Person to Teach It, and we talk about teacher math anxiety. It is one of the biggest, one of the, the biggest issues in math education, and one of the least talked about issues in math education. And I'm really excited- that we're gonna talk about this now. Because we are working really, really hard to prevent math anxiety or to mitigate math anxiety on a student level, but these poor teachers with their own math anxiety are the ones tasked with doing it.

Amy Johnston 17:34

This is amazing. Yeah. This is actually helping me understand your work in a really cool way. Yeah. I mean-

Vanessa Vakharia 17:39

Which I love this is all about me at the end of the day.

Amy Johnston 17:43

Well, it's- It's phenomenal. Okay, so, okay, so

What would a therapist tell a math teacher?

Amy Johnston 17:45

maybe I'll take that.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:45

So, so I wanna really now spend some time talking about how we help teachers, how we help these adults who, because you are, I mean, you don't teach math, but I mean, l- well, now that we're digging through your past history, it's like there could be someone just like you who had this exact experience. Like, let's imagine it was you who had this experience of, like, in high school, like, you're in applied math, you have this great teacher, but you've already now developed this story about yourself that you're less intelligent than everyone else 'cause you have to take applied math. Mm. And now you're in an elementary classroom teaching math to these kids, and A, maybe you're not 100% confident with the material, and B, you're petrified that you're like, "Fuck, I don't wanna make these kids anxious about math." Yeah. So what, how do we help these teachers? Like you know, what would be like, let's imagine you had a patient, like you had a client or, what do we call them? Clients. Uh, you had a client that was like, "Oh, man, I'm really struggling. You know? Like, I really wanna make sure I do the best job for these kids, but I'm anxious around math. I don't know how to get over my own math anxiety- but I also don't wanna traumatize these kids." Like, where, where would we start?

Amy Johnston 18:50

This feels like it ties into something that I support almost every client with, which is to see the moments in your present day that kind of, like, rhyme with your past or is like a, some form of, like, a traumatic recreation, which it sounds like it would be for a lot of these teachers that have to teach something that was overwhelming for themselves, is, like, that's actually a moment of opportunity. It's like a really- like, sacred moment. So I would encourage framing entering into, like, that semester or that school year as, like, something deeper is going to happen that year because of the challenge.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:33

Oh my God, I love this. I love what you just said about a sacred moment. So right away we're reframing this moment. Tell me if I've gotten this right. Instead of being like, "Oh, fuck, here I go again-"

Amy Johnston 19:43

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 19:44

"The stressful thing I'm just gonna try to get through," instead your energy around it is, "Okay, here I go." Yeah. "I'm entering a p- a sacred moment of potential healing."

Amy Johnston 19:53

Yes, because I'm hearing there's two things available. There's their personal journey that's gonna be activated, and there's their opportunity to be a change maker for the kids. So- I think when it comes to, let's say, interacting with your students, I mean, there's... This is something that, I think can be really valuable for, for all e- elements of life. But, like, when you weave in your own personal experience to a teaching moment, it can connect and it can deepen. So I would suggest, like, maybe saying the quiet part out loud. Like, right away from f- first day of class or throughout to name your own experience of it being challenging for you, whatever it is, right?

Vanessa Vakharia 20:42

What could that look like?

Amy Johnston 20:43

I th- I mean, it could look like my Krispy Kreme story. Like, what's a real anecdote? And you could even try and, like, playfully think beforehand, like, "What was my own personal challenge?" And, like, don't make it too, much. It could just be, like, that same little callback comes throughout the semester. but if that... Again, I think that there's probably... Like, I would... If I was supporting a teacher, I would bring it into, like, what's going on for them as they enter into that lesson, and what are they noticing, let's say, like, on a body or thought level.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:20

Okay, guys, I am so sorry to pause this amazing convo, but I have a very good reason because I am here with your top secret code for the TIO My Math Box giveaway. Okay, the code is ILoveFractions. All you have to do is click the link that says Send Us a Text in the show notes of whatever app you're listening to this episode in. Send the words ILoveFractions, and you'll be automatically entered into our giveaway. Okay, let's get back to the ep. First of all, I love this because I talk about this all the time, the idea of vulnerability as a superpower as a leader.

Amy Johnston 21:52

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:53

And as a teacher you are a leader.

Amy Johnston 21:54

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:55

Um, and I think a lot of teachers have been taught that, like, they need to pretend that they feel, like, amazing about math and they can't possibly speak of their anxiety 'cause it's gonna, like, be contagious or something. And that causes its own pressure of, like, now not only are you, like, stressed about this thing, but you've gotta pretend you're not stressed. Which we all know how that goes, right? Like, that doesn't feel good. So, let's back off of, like, a teacher being like, "Okay, when I go into the classroom, like, I'm just so petrified I'm gonna make a mistake on the board, or a student's gonna ask me a question I don't know an answer to, and I start, like, freaking out."

Amy Johnston 22:28

Well, okay, so, you know, a strategy, like, just- You could think of it as, like, you're narrating that moment. Like, let's say if that moment was muted, and it was in a scene in a movie, and a narrator was speaking over top, like, what would the narrator say about the teacher's experience to help the audience understand? And then just, like, bring that out of yourself and tell your students. Pause yourself, say like, "Wow, I'm really noticing I'm stressed right now. This is reminding me of my past," or, "Hey, does anyone notice, like, this is... I'm fumbling here." And that could be, like, actually the more powerful moment of the, of the lesson for the kids and for themselves. what do you think of this? I'm obsessed.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:15

I'm... What I'm thinking is I'm so pissed we're not, like, I can't post this clip on Instagram 'cause we don't have any video. But I'm also like, this actually sounds like such a fun rom-com strategy.

Amy Johnston 23:25

I love narration. I think I do it for me. Like, when I feel distressed, like even yesterday I was driving to come visit you. I wasn't in my own car. It was, like, a little bit much for me to be, like, h- all this kind of shenanigans that happened on my day. And I was like, "Oh, I feel uncomfortable." And so I just started, like, if this was being narrated, it would be, like, it would refer to, like, my challenging week. It would, like, maybe call back to, like, what I've been going through this year. it ma- you could even say, like, what previous scenes of your life, if it was a movie, would need to be, like, flashed and shown for the viewer to understand the moment you're in.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:02

I am obsessed with this.

Amy Johnston 24:04

How how have we not woven this into our own personal therapy?

Vanessa Vakharia 24:07

I know. I'm like... 'Cause I'm, like, right now thinking about a lot of situations- where I'm like, "Oh my God, I should..." Like, our music industry stuff, it would be so great to be like, "Okay, this moment is triggering you with this band. Flashback to this scene when we got totally screwed up." Like, first of all, it's making it a lot more fun. Yeah. Like, I'm seeing it as a comic strip. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, where you could, like, cut and paste scenes. Yeah. What I'm also honestly, Amy, thinking is this would be such a cool activity to do with students. Totally. Like, make a comic strip that led up to the current way you feel in math class right now. I love that. Like, this is so fun. But because this is about te- the teacher, and I wanna stick with the teacher 'cause they don't get the attention, I really like this idea of pausing, creating that little comic strip just to, first of all, get some perspective. Because I think a lot of teachers are also like, "What the fuck is wrong with me?" Like, "Why can't I just get it together and teach this lesson?" And it's like, well, hold on. If you were gonna narrate this moment like, the viewer would be like, "Of course, this isn't about getting it together. Like, all of these things have led up to this moment. This moment isn't in isolation." And what I also love the most, the most, the most is the idea of then narrating it to the student to contextualize the experience because not only are you helping, are you humanizing the moment for the student, who probably feels the fucking same way but you're also taking the pressure off of you to be perfect. Right? So it's like, now you and the students are all on the same page. And you can be like, "Okay, guys, yeah, I'm fumbling because, oh my God, let me tell you guys this story about this teacher and how I was put into applied," and other students will be like, "Oh my God, I feel the same way."

Amy Johnston 25:35

Love this, and I think this is where your work is so powerful to that field because I think what we can know is, like, to be able to soften people's bodies, have a laugh, like bring some levity to the moment, actually allows them to learn better. So it, and it's not like the f- I don't know, you can tell me if I'm understanding this, but it's not like the field of math needs to, like, really buckle down on the practicalities. Like that's, you got that. That's, you know, that's set. But what needs to happen to, like, bring it to more people is to humanize it and so it's like almost like this paradigm shift of, like, that is, let's front-load the lesson with that to make sure every lesson has that so that the rest can kind of flow.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:27

Can w- how do we get you in a school today? Like, get into a school. Oh my God, we should, like, go on tour together.

Amy Johnston 26:33

Good, totally.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:34

How much fun would we have?

Amy Johnston 26:35

Love this moment for us.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:36

Oh my God, because, like, we could even just... Okay, so anyway, so let's get back to- So we're narrating the experience. Strategy number one-narrate. Narrate, be vulnerable, front-load with a narration. Bring, you know, like make your experience visible for the audience. Right? Great.

Strategies for students

Vanessa Vakharia 26:53

What else can we do?

Amy Johnston 26:55

I mean, as we're talking about this, I feel like we're kind of toggling between m- the teachers are landing a little deeper in my heart because it's like probably they're always getting suggestions on how to improve, but what I'm hearing is actually they're going through a moment of their own activation. So I'm just like, I, you know, I think something that came to mind that feels like it's more for the students is to... This came up actually when I used to work with medical doctors, and it was, like, this idea of, naming directly that the doctor, because of the system we're in, the doctor has to be the gatekeeper to some of your health journey. They need to sign off on things et cetera. This was particularly when I was supporting people that, for gender confirmation surgery. It's like here we are in this system that exists this way. I have knowledge that, and I need to say yes to the things in order for you to feel like you can move on and and have the things in your life. So in math it's like in order for you to feel like you... 'Cause math is so woven into, like, our personhood, you, for me and my taxes, it's like it's a thing you need. I think just naming the word gatekeeper, maybe deconstructing that for younger kids, but, like, I know that this is, I'm the person now that is having to give you this information. But, like, hopefully em- empowering kids to learn it in other ways. Is this making sense?

Vanessa Vakharia 28:19

W- this is, like, so deep. Like, I'm really... You've just said so many things that I'm like, "Oh my God." Like, I think you've touched on, like, 30 things I wanna talk about. But I really do wanna... I wanna dig a bit deeper into this gatekeeper idea. Are you... Tell me if I'm understanding. Are you saying that, like, it is useful for the educator, like, the, the comparison to the doctor is, like, the educator has to be the one to be like, "I'm signing off on the fact that you passed." Like, that you know this concept. Also them being like they also had a gatekeeper, many gatekeepers in their life who had to sign off. So, like the reason that teacher might not feel competent or confident is because they didn't get the sign-off they needed from somebody in their lives, but now they're playing this role for somebody else.

Amy Johnston 29:05

Right. And just, again, it's like shine a flashlight on that and name it. Of course, we have to continue 'cause we're all in this system. So y- the teacher does need to give you the pass or fail, but if the teacher can acknowledge... Like, I do this sometimes with my clients where it's like, you know, I think it can be really destructive for people to not think that a therapist or a doctor has their own challenges. So I'm not gonna spend the time sharing that, but I might say and name, like, "Here in this moment, there's, like, a, a power difference. But this isn't the only place where you can explore this part of your identity." And, you know, like, use this. You're in the driver's seat of your life. You... If I didn't have that teacher that gave me that opportunity to do my tests at home, I might have an even more challenging time sitting down with my taxes now. But, like, thankfully, I had a gatekeeper in that grade 11 or whatever it was that softened the experience. So I think, yeah, I don't know, like, I feel like I'm going a little bit meta with this,

Vanessa Vakharia 30:08

but- I love it though Because I do, I do see the connection. I actually think, in a way, it's like, uh, like re-parenting almost in a way.

Amy Johnston 30:16

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:16

Right? Like, for the teacher to be like, "Okay, I didn't have this-but I acknowledge that it played a role in how I feel about math." Right. I can now play this role in my students' lives of being like"Yeah, fine. Like, we are in this system." And I talk about this all the time, of how hard it is to do this work within the confines of the system, 'cause you do have to pass-fail the t- You have to give them a grade. You have to whatever. But there are these windows and these moments, just like you had with Krispy Kreme teacher, I guess we're just calling him that- um, where it's like he softened it a bit. Yeah. And you still remember that, and I think this is so important for teachers to hear, is like y- your students are going to remember these moments. Yeah. It's like it could always be worse, and you're going to make it better, even if it's not the ultimate, you know, maybe they don't all get 100%, and they don't all get As, but they're still gonna remember these little moments. Yeah. And it's going to soften the trauma, it's gonna soften the anxiety, it's going to be a potentially corrective experience. So to get up in front of students and be like, "Hey, guys, I get that this can be kind of rough." Like, you know what I mean? Like, yes, like, there are grades, there are assessments, there are things you have to learn, but I see you. Mm. And this is part of the work I do too, of being like, what opportunities can you find to show students, and yourself as the teacher, that you are doing math in so many empowered ways that you have an, a unique take on? Right? Like, math does not just exist in the classroom. It's not just in the textbook. It's ju- not just on the paper. So when we can acknowledge that for our students and in ourselves, it can just be empowering and release the holds of that gatekeeping, I think, a bit.

Amy Johnston 31:45

I love it.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:45

I

How teachers can conquer their fears

Vanessa Vakharia 31:46

love Okay. I love it. So now we have a teacher at the front of the room. They're doing the narration. They're like, "Okay, this is sick. I feel like, you know, my vulnerability is actually helping me, like, enter this moment a little more safely." They're reliving their own gatekeeping experiences- and redoing it for their students. And now one of the m- one of the things that can help teachers feel less anxious, and help all of us feel less anxious, is knowledge, right? Knowledge is power. And they're like, "Oh, man." There's a lot of teachers who are like, "Fuck." Like, "This, every time I get to this fractions lesson," or they have this opportunity to teach another grade, and they're like, "No, I ca- I can't. I can't. I've gotta stick with this grade." And now they're thinking, "I don't know. Maybe I do wanna learn some of this content that always, like, made, gave me the ick. Like, I wanna, like-" And there are lots of incredible educators out there doing the work of reteaching mathematics in a more empowered way. How do we get them to take that opportunity, even though they're like, "Oh, the last thing I wanna do is learn more math. I'm scared I'm not gonna learn it"? Like- Yeah how do we step into that?

Amy Johnston 32:41

This is, again, I think touching on something that I, personally, I feel like it would be, like, my biggest thing, I w- if I had, like, a microphone to the whole world, I would try to-

Vanessa Vakharia 32:51

You do, kind of, right now, actually. That's what the internet is for.

Amy Johnston 32:56

Like, I think challenge is the moment of opportunity. Challenge is sacred. So I, I'm thinking about this family that, and several families that I've supported, but one in particular where we talked about how the mom really faced a lot more intergenerational trauma than her daughters. So if you think of, like, the teacher, and the, you know, who were those teachers' teachers, you're, you had it worse in a way. Like, s- this was not being talked about. And so part of what I'm thinking in this moment is, like, this analogy of, like, a snowball rolling down a hill, and the teacher is, like, stopping it so that the next generation doesn't get blown over by the avalanche. That pressure in your body of holding it back, like, holding back the history, like, "I'm gonna kind of digest this moment rather than recycle it and have it happen to the younger people" is, like, s- so brave and truly, like, how we evolve as a collective. So I think it's part of, like, it, it's a person by person, if we can actually see these moments where we're triggered as, again, the moment of opportunity to digest what wasn't before us digested.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:08

Like, the snowball has sent me. That's the moment. You're right. You're holding up the ball rolling down the hill, and I just, I really love this framing. I just wanna pause. Like, this is the quote, "The challenge is the opportunity." It is a sacred opportunity for a corrective experience. Yeah. And also, I'm just like, how, you know, we have spent so much work trying to impart that message down onto students of being like, "Productive struggle. Like, the struggle is the thing. Like, it's process." Like, but you just The way you said that the challenge, it's not that that's the good thing or it's a learning moment, it's the opportunity.

Amy Johnston 34:47

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:47

And for teachers, it's the opportunity to stop that snowball rolling down the hill.

Amy Johnston 34:51

Yeah. And it's And, and by doing that, you are evolving your own personal life, which I think is, like, so important for teachers bec- I mean, you know this way more than me, but, like, that's a form of deconstructing this, like, the devaluing of that role is, like, for us to even be naming this right now and saying, like, "This is a massive service that you're doing, and it's not just for the kids and for society. It's also It's making me think of I'm on a big Carl Jung kick, you know? But I'm learning about he, he believed that the first half of life is in the external world. So the kids are in their external world part of their life, and it's about tending to that so they can have these ex- these experiences that then they, after 40, they go inward with it. So the teachers are having a, their inward experience in the classroom.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:46

What? Wait, what? Say more about this. Like-

Amy Johnston 35:48

It's like the content from their past is being activated in that moment. So I think, like, this, this summary is kind of the same recycled statement here of just, like, when you're triggered in the classroom because as a kid you had your own stress, seeing that as, like, a log on the fire internally to burn something that, like, is about your own life path. Like, if every person had their own personal mythology, trying to understand, like, what math and your own history... Let's say you're, like, you went into teaching because you really love music, but, oh, no, here I go, have to go into this math class for this semester. Like, what was it about your... What was happening in your childhood around the time when your particular math anxiety or trauma started? And so, like, perhaps pa- at the end of the math class that day, taking a moment to think of, like, how is this transforming my inner experience? Does it make sense?

Vanessa Vakharia 36:44

It totally does. It's, it's, it's deep but it makes sense, right? It's Okay, so again, let me try to- Let's see if I understand it, actually. To me, it's like creating a more holistic thread. Instead of looking at a math experience in isolation, to look at a math experience a- as part of your personhood. So I'm hearing you kind of be like you're in the math class now, present day- and things are coming up. Things are maybe being triggered. You're having some things come up. You're maybe repairing them in the moment. You're maybe being vulnerable with your students. And to take a minute to be like, "Back when I was 10 years old and having this math experience that gave me the ick, what else was going on for me as a human being? I was making new friends. I was at a new school. My parents were fighting at home. Like, I was, like, insecure about, like, I don't know, my new bangs or whatever." And now, like, just to be like that, that math experience in grade two was a piece of an entire person, and now looking at the person I am now, how does this new math experience tie in? Wait, now I'm confused. Am I right? Kinda?

Amy Johnston 37:50

Yeah. I think if we could boil it down to like-

Vanessa Vakharia 37:53

Yeah, let's boil it down. I went off. I, I lost myself.

Amy Johnston 37:55

I, I took us there. But, like, I'm seeing, like, I'm trying to think of, like, a teacher and, and how much they have on their plate, and probably it's a big ask to make this a meaningful moment. But if it is intersecting with your own wounding, to carve any kind of moment that feels like it's stepping inside of yourself rather than having it be only living in the external world. The kids are in their external. You're gonna use your words and speak and share stories and help them with their behaviors and their learning. Something is simultaneously happening to the teachers, and that could look like a hand on your heart, or it could look like maybe taking some time to talk to someone who gets it before the semester starts, and that's all it is. Could be like if you really wanted to have this fuel your personal development, it could be like some kind of ritualized experience pre and post class or pre and post semester.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:01

I think we have to look at our math experiences not in isolation, but as a part of our growth as human beings. So whatever happened back then, like using air quotes was a part of our growth as a human being, and now we are in the classroom however many years later. And to realize that our responsibility is not just, like, at all costs you're just serving the kids. It's I mean, I think it's the classic thing about teachers. Like, as we teach, we say this about just math, the best way to learn something yourself is to teach it to someone else. And maybe we can translate that to the best way to learn yourself, to- to unlearn and relearn your story of yourself as a mathematician or a doer of math, is to teach that to someone else. So in a teaching and providing this beautiful experience for students, you're also providing that experience for yourself, and we need to take a moment and honor that. Does that sort of make sense?

Amy Johnston 39:55

Absolutely.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:56

I think it is that adage of, like, we don't think about it this way, but if we- if a student was like, "What's the best way to relearn this material for an exam?" We'd be like, "Go teach it to someone else." And the best way for you to- to rewrite your story as a learner and- and doer of math is to teach a new story to someone else as well.

Amy Johnston 40:14

Beautiful.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:15

And, like, I always say, like, I think we're talking about this in different words but in the same way, like my big thing is celebration. I'm like if you have a single moment where you're like, "Oh, that wasn't so bad," or, "Oh, I did this thing I didn't think," or, "I made a mistake on the board and I didn't have a meltdown," like pop a fucking confetti cannon.

Amy Johnston 40:30

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia 40:30

Like, that is a moment like h- like you said, hand on heart. Like, that's a moment to be like, "Holy shit," like, "look what I just did." Don't just run by that moment.

What unites most math teachers

Amy Johnston 40:41

What's, like, the common thread between the teachers that you meet? Like, what, uh, picturing them listening to this, like, is there something we've missed?

Vanessa Vakharia 40:49

Well, if you're listening to this right now, I, we want you to text the podcast. Okay. Like, is there some- so Amy is one of my absolute best friends in the world, so we can have her back on any time. So if you have questions about this, tell us. Is there something we missed? Is there something you wanna hear? Is there something you'd like to ask her about? Is Like, please text us. You can find the link in your show notes. So do that, And then I will say to you- There's, you know, when I talk about math trauma, which is, is literally defined as a negative experience with math that sticks with you- long after it's over.

Amy Johnston 41:20

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:20

Right? Like, I like how you said it earlier, like a distressing event that has stuck with you.

Amy Johnston 41:24

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 41:25

There are so many types, right? That can take shape in the way it did with you, somebody g- get, you know, being in an applied math class. It can be being bullied, it can be being yelled at, it could be just feeling like you're being compared to everyone in the room. It could be com- being compared to a friend or a sibling. It could be an undiagnosed learning difference. When I talk to teachers, 'cause I do this work with teachers, they will cite a lot of these things, right? They'll say, "Oh, my God," and then, "There was this teacher who made me feel so stupid." A lot of it comes from other teachers, it comes from parents, it comes from the peers. Like, there are a lot of ways in which you can have a distressing experience in mathematics that sticks with you, especially if that thing is repeated. Right? Like, over and over again happens. and the way that manifests in the classroom is, being really scared and anxious and going, you know, f- going into fight, flight, freeze when you're about to teach a lesson.

Amy Johnston 42:09

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:09

Another big way it happens is we have all these beautiful new instructional practices, right? Like for example, your Krispy Kreme teacher sending that test home. We have all of these practices we're trying to encourage now. Like, giving students multiple way- times to read, write a test, or teaching math in a different way, and a lot of teachers are just too scared to try it because they're like, "But what if... like, I understand this one way of teaching math." "I'm gonna stick to it, because if I try this other way, it's gonna threaten the entire foundation of which I stand," right? So, like-

Amy Johnston 42:38

The, the foundation-

Vanessa Vakharia 42:40

Of being like, "I understand this. I'm too scared to try to teach math in a different way or teach fractions by this different method, 'cause what if I don't get it? What if a student asks a question I don't understand?"

Amy Johnston 42:49

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:49

"At least if I just stick to the script and the way I've been taught to teach it I don't have to feel those feelings." So I think you've touched on this beautiful thing of- the feeling of those feelings- that challenge is the opportunity.

Amy Johnston 43:02

Like, if they fumbled, and if they were able to say, like, "Oops, didn't do that right" or, "I have to, you know, go back to the drawing board on this lesson," that's actually the bigger takeaway. Could be a bigger takeaway.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:16

Could be the bigger takeaway. And again, I was in a classroom a couple weeks ago that I watched a teacher make a mistake. We were doing some factoring, and he made a mistake. We were all, we all saw the mistake, and students were like, "Hold on. Isn't that number supposed to be -7?" And he was like, "What? What?" And then he clued in and was like, "Oh. Oh, my gosh. Oops. Yeah, it totally was. Good catch."

Amy Johnston 43:33

Nice.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:33

And I was like, "What a beautiful moment."

Amy Johnston 43:35

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:35

Right? Like, in those moments, but again, if you are carrying your own math trauma and you have an insecurity around math, that moment is so threatening, 'cause you're like, "They're gonna find out I'm an imposter."

Amy Johnston 43:46

Ugh, it's like an unmasking of, like, so many people in society right now. That is, the... I love hearing this.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:54

Oh, what, pause. Sorry, you can't just make a statement like that.

Amy Johnston 43:56

Well, it's just like the, it's like this, what you've been talking about around- the vulnerability is a superpower. And this is so interesting, right? Like, you can, it lands as c- more confident-

Vanessa Vakharia 44:07

100%

Amy Johnston 44:08

we were talking about this yesterday. Lands as more confident when you can name your vulnerability. Or, like, ooh, like again, narrate or bring out the truth of what's happening in the inner world of like, "Oh, wait. I didn't, I didn't get this right." That's a way to be a bigger... And again, like, it does bring me to the patriarchy 'cause I'm like, this is deconstructing.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:28

Yeah. At the end of the day, it all comes back to it.

Amy Johnston 44:30

It real- it really, really does. So teachers are amazing.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:35

Sorry,

Amy Johnston 44:35

can you just finish the patriarchy thought, though? Well, uh, one of my favorite sayings comes from one of my favorite decks of cards, that is like, "Don't be the coconut, hard on the outside with mushy inside. Be the avocado, strong at the core and yielding outside." I always wanted to get a c- avocado tattoo. But-

Vanessa Vakharia 44:53

Oh my God

Amy Johnston 44:54

so I think of the patriarchy as the h- the avocado. It's like, what is going on inside of the, like, the mush of it all? It's like-

Vanessa Vakharia 45:01

Wait, no, the patriarchy's the coconut

Amy Johnston 45:03

sorry, the coconut. Yeah. The coconut. And so I don't know. That's, that's where my mind goes with that.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:09

I th- I think that's it. I don't think anything else needs to be said. I think, that's it. Be the avocado.

Amy Johnston 45:14

Be the avocado.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:15

Be the fucking avocado. Everyone loves avocado. Yeah. It's very trendy these days. Be the avocado. What a beautiful... I mean, I could talk to you forever.

Amy Johnston 45:24

I know.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:25

I think this is such a, a perfect way to wrap up, and I mean, I am thinking so many things, and I'm really excited for people to hear this. Because you've given us some actual strategies teachers can use right now. You've given us some strategies that leaders and coaches can use with the teachers they help. Like, these are really practical. And I just, I just think it's gonna be, it... I, I just think that's it. The challenge is the opportunity. You know, your anxiety and past traumas are, are yielding to a sacred moment that is happening for you right now. And I think that reframing of instead of going into it with the energy of avoidance and resistance is the opening of being like, "All right, I'm in. I'm, I'm surrendering to this sacred moment. Let's see what opportunity it presents," and that's all you have to do.

Amy Johnston 46:09

Beautiful.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:10

Ugh. Okay. We are wrapping up with the final two questions I ask everyone. Okay. You've got 30 seconds. That's... It's not a timed test. You have as long as you want- but, like, you don't have to...

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 46:19

Question number one is if there's one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?

Amy Johnston 46:24

Oh, my. One thing I could change. I, I mean, this is probably some- pe- people say this probably a lot, but, like, make it practical. How the hell will I be using this? That's why I checked out. I was like, "This is not my path." But I sit down to do my taxes every year and it stresses me out. So yes, that.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:44

Well, we could... I don't know why we're not teaching people how to do their fucking taxes.

Amy Johnston 46:47

Yeah, or save, or, like, what are the, like, co- like, we just renewed our mortgage. Like, that was a full lesson.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:52

I still don't get my mortgage. I- I still don't even know what the fuck's going on.

Amy Johnston 46:54

I know.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:55

Fuck. Yeah. Okay. Love it. Make it practical. All

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 46:58

right, number two, if someone listened to this whole thing and they were like, "Yeah, I get it. I get what she's saying. but I... Honestly, I just think I'm not a math person," what would you say?

Amy Johnston 47:07

Oh, wow. I would say that math is fundamental to the universe, so everyone has it in you. And use it as an entry point to understand yourself more.

Vanessa Vakharia 47:20

What a beautiful way to put it. That's so nice. I love you so much. I love you so much.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 47:26

Okay, and that's a wrap. That's it. That's all she wrote. I mean, I... Okay. Guys, I really want you to text the podcast. So I feel like I'm gonna leave this and I'm gonna have a million things I wish I'd asked. So we wanna hear from you. You have Amy... I was gonna say you have Amy at your beck and call. That's actually not true. Um, but I could probably convince her to be back on the pod.

Amy Johnston 47:43

Definitely.

Vanessa Vakharia 47:43

Send us your questions. I mean, is Amy not the most amazing? I'm sorry, guys, she's my best friend. You can't have her. but you can learn more about the amazing Amy Johnston by heading to the show notes and finding out more. We've got links in there. We've got some info about her. And guys, I just wanna say thank you so much for being here. Thank you for listening past the TI giveaway, which I know a lot of you came here for. And I know you probably could not stop listening to this episode because Amy dropped so much knowledge, and I would love to know what your takeaways are. So feel free to hit that Text Us button again, and let me know what your biggest takeaway from this episode was. Did it change your perspective on something? Did it give you a little bit of healing? And did it give you a little impetus to try something new this summer? All right. Next week, I will be here, same time, same place, same channel. In the meantime, you can join our Facebook group. We're almost at 500 members. Just head to Facebook, type in Math Therapy, click Join, and you'll be let in. It's an amazing community of people supporting one another. You can find me on Instagram @themathguru. And you should know that this episode was produced by the one and only David Kochberg, and while I was recording the intro and outro, there were construction noises the entire time, so if you can't hear them, that's because David is awesome. And I should also tell you that the music you're listening to right now is by our band. Me and David have a band. It's called Goodnight Sunrise, so look us up, stream us. Maybe it's, like, your new summer soundtrack. Okay. Love you guys. You're amazing. You're awesome. Thank you for all the work you do. You are making a difference, and thank you for listening to this during the summer months. It just shows how dedicated you are to doing the work because you are a teacher through and through. You are a healer through and through, and I just think you're the best.