Cathy Marks Krpan

Cathy Marks Krpan 0:03

what's really important is to get to know each kid as best as we can, each student as best... as a person, as a human being.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:14

Hello, and welcome to today's episode of Math Therapy, coming to you straight from Fort Worth, Texas, where I'm speaking at the CAMT Math Education Conference. My friend Dr. Cathy Marks Krpan and I have actually snuck into an empty conference room between sessions. There is a very loud presentation happening next door, and I am just praying this mic does not pick it up, otherwise David is going to kill me. Now, why have we decided to record this completely impromptu episode? Well, Cathy and I have this very weird thing going on. See, we're both from Toronto, but we basically never see each other there. In fact, we've only ever been together in person twice, and both times have been in airports. The first time was in Texas after this very conference last year. The second time was in the Toronto airport on our way here just a few days ago. The weird part is that both times we've traveled together, something completely ridiculous has happened. Last year was literal chaos. You know the, like, airport little buses, like the buggies that they drive around? We convinced two guys to drive us to our gate on it, and we made it to our flight with thirty seconds to spare. Now, this year, somehow, basically the same thing. Mechanical issue after mechanical issue, sitting on the tarmac forever, just one of those travel days where you're convinced you're never actually getting where you're supposed to go. And both times, we've found ourselves texting each other from different rows on the plane saying, "This is exactly like math education. This is exactly like teaching math." Which got me wondering, like, I wonder if Cathy means the same thing by that as I do. So we thought, "Why not sneak into a conference room between sessions and find out live on the pod?" Now, if you don't already know Cathy, you are in for such a treat because Dr. Cathy Marks-Krpan is a former classroom teacher, now a professor at OISE, which is the Ontario Institute for Studies in Education at the University of Toronto, and she teaches graduate courses in math education. She works with teachers in school districts across North America and around the world, helping them create richer, more meaningful mathematical learning experiences. She is the real deal, guys. Honestly, she is one of the coolest people I know. She reminds me so much of my own high school math teacher. She has, like, this spark, this energy, this passion for helping every student believe they can think mathematically. She's thoughtful, she's funny, she's brilliant, and every conversation with her leaves me seeing things a little differently. If you're looking for a little spark this summer, a little reminder of why you fell in love with teaching in the first place, or if you've ever wondered how an airport disaster could possibly have anything to do with teaching math, this episode is for you. So without further ado, here is my friend, my fellow Canadian, and one of the coolest women I know, Dr. Cathy Marks-Krpan.

Sitting with the unknown

Vanessa Vakharia 2:48

Here's why we're telling you about this, not just that we want you to be in awe of our reality show that we should have, but because the entire time, me- Cathy and I were like, "This is basically a metaphor for teaching math."

Cathy Marks Krpan 2:59

It is.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:59

Tell me what you were thinking.

Cathy Marks Krpan 3:00

I was thinking of several layers to this.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:04

Let's go.

Cathy Marks Krpan 3:04

One is they get on the announcement and said, "We..." Something to do with the engine. It was, "Wah, wah, wah, wah, engine. Wah, wah, wah, wah, 30 minutes." And I wonder how many kids sit in math class while we say something that we understand as educators, that this is clear, it's very easy, and the kids are hearing, "Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah." Mm. And so, and that can lead to a lot of different things. And then the other piece is the whole unknown, right? Sitting on that plane, not knowing if we're gonna be taking off or not, and that unknown piece. And, and sitting- And feeling a little stressed about that. We were a little stressed about it

Vanessa Vakharia 3:49

Sure. Like, you're, you're mentally going through all the options of what can happen And, and I,

Cathy Marks Krpan 3:52

and we're, and we're grown adults- Yeah that can rational- that we have at least, we can, we can reason, we can think clearly about, "Okay, these are our options." But a lot of times, kids in the classroom don't always have those kinds of thinking skillsets readily available to them. But-

Vanessa Vakharia 4:09

They're just panicking in the moment

Cathy Marks Krpan 4:10

Right, right. Yeah. And, and we think, oh, you know, from my perspective or anyone else in the classroom, sometimes when we're teaching we think, "You know, I, this is pretty straightforward. This is really easy." But sitting with the unknown, right? Sit- being comfortable with the unknown, whether you're an adult or a student in the classroom, whether it's math or anything else, that can be very stressful.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:32

Now, you're talking about the student perspective-

Cathy Marks Krpan 4:34

Correct

Vanessa Vakharia 4:34

right? So let's go back to the whomp, whomp, whomp engine, 'cause you were texting me being like, "We, they are not asking us what we're thinking." That's it. They're not, right? So tell me more about that moment of like, so a kid is sitting in class, let's say, and they're just hearing you blabber some stuff and blah, like, "Whomp, whomp, whomp fractions. Whomp, whomp, whomp a quarter." What would you prefer? Like, let's imagine now go back to us on the plane. What should have happened there that would've helped us?

Cathy Marks Krpan 4:59

First, first of all, I think there should've been, "Does anyone have any questions?" And I know people don't do that.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:04

That's such a good idea.

Cathy Marks Krpan 5:04

They don't do that on airlines 'cause they don't want our questions.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:09

But teachers, they think all the-

Cathy Marks Krpan 5:09

Because we would have damn fine questions to ask. Like, do I get a reimbursement?

Vanessa Vakharia 5:15

Like- Or like, tell us exactly what's wrong with the engine And

Cathy Marks Krpan 5:17

I was thinking, rightly so, there's gonna be a high demand on the food and, but by the time it came to my seat, there was hardly anything left, which is a whole other thing. But yes-

Vanessa Vakharia 5:26

That has nothing to do with what we're talking about, but I love that you needed to get that out there.

Cathy Marks Krpan 5:29

No, it was important.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:29

Air Canada, I hope you're listening.

Cathy Marks Krpan 5:31

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:31

Okay.

Cathy Marks Krpan 5:32

They always listen to me. It's always that way.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:34

Okay, so what, what if they had asked, okay, tell me if they-

Cathy Marks Krpan 5:37

So what are you thinking? How are you feeling? Um, is there anything... Uh, they did come with water, which was nice, but just, there's never any, there's not enough information to calm me down on an airplane, and I just think in teaching that parallels very nicely because I'm sure there are kids, even though we are very explicit sometimes in, in what we do and we ask, "Are there any questions?" A lot of kids aren't gonna ask the questions 'cause they feel that they're gonna be singled out and they don't wanna do that. But even just having them write something down and just say, "What are you thinking at this moment? Write it down. Give them cue cards out. Let me see what's, what's going on."

Vanessa Vakharia 6:11

Well, this is also making me think of like they're giving us on the plane like just kind of a surface level explanation. It's- Right? They're like, they kept saying, like after the engine thing, they kept saying technical difficulties. Yeah. We didn't know what technical- Yes like is the air conditioner broken? Is it the like lighting? Yes. Is it the actual-

Cathy Marks Krpan 6:26

Is the wing falling off the plane? Like, we don't know. We don't know. And I am not the, I mean, I am c- I'm a calm flyer pretty much, but, but- When these things start happening, things start racing through my brain. Right. And I start thinking about what if this happens? What if this happens? And I'm just thinking about kids in the classroom with math. Like, oh my gosh, what if I have to share? What if I have to do this and I don't know what's gonna happen next? Sometimes that can- Hmm. I think we don't take that into consideration enough. I think because we, the person g- doing the wah, wah, wah engine, wah, wah, wah, wing falling off- they have an insight of what is happening- Yeah and it's calm for them.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:14

Well, I'm, you know what this reminds me of? To me, okay, sorry, this is gonna be such a, a niche topic for the high school teachers. I fucking hate how we teach SOHCAHTOA before we actually teach the sine, cos, and tan function. So kids are just like, they're like, "What?" And you're like, "Don't worry, just type in sine 60. Just press the sine button on your calculator." Yeah, everything's gonna be great. "It's all gonna be fine." They don't know that sine is actually a function. It's a gr- like they have no clue and we're just like, "Wah, wah, wah SOHCAHTOA. Wah, wah, wah- Yeah sine, cos, tan." And I think we d- so first of all, I'm using that, that because that example really pisses me off, but we do it with a lot of things. Keep, change, flip. Just flip, right? Yep. Yeah, yeah. Just flip and multiply when you're dinin- dividing the fractions, it's gonna work.

Cathy Marks Krpan 7:56

Don't ask why.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:56

Don't ask why, right? We don't wanna hear your questions. Here's a sip of water, end of story. We don't even do that part. But do you know what I mean? I know. So it's-

Cathy Marks Krpan 8:02

Like keep s- keep in your seat and put your seatbelt on.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:04

It's true. And, and-

Cathy Marks Krpan 8:05

Yeah, why are we doing this?

Vanessa Vakharia 8:05

And so we're thinking like kids are often thinking to themselves, number one, why? But I also like what you said of what's going to happen next. Like what am I... I'd like to know what I'm going to have to do next. Do I have to produce an answer? Do I have to share it with the class? Mm-hmm. Like I think there's a lot of classroom practices- Yeah that kids are scared are going to happen.

Cathy Marks Krpan 8:24

Yeah, and I, I think we underestimate that sometimes. Like I just think, again, we're adults in a plane, right? We, we sort of have a, a, a broader view of what's happening and what could happen, and yet we still get anxious about it.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:39

Yeah.

Cathy Marks Krpan 8:39

Right? And I think that just made me think like about kids and learning, and we thought the plane is the classroom, right? We're, we're the students.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:48

We're the students.

Cathy Marks Krpan 8:49

And-

Vanessa Vakharia 8:49

The people in charge are just all like-

Cathy Marks Krpan 8:51

And the pilot could be like the director of education, and then the-

Vanessa Vakharia 8:55

Oh,

Cathy Marks Krpan 8:55

wow the s- the, the, the flight attendants, the teachers perhaps.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:59

Or like the teacher's assistants maybe.

Cathy Marks Krpan 9:00

Maybe. So who's the teacher then?

Vanessa Vakharia 9:02

Well, they're also the teachers.

Cathy Marks Krpan 9:04

Okay. We're

Vanessa Vakharia 9:04

not sure. We're not sure. They're the teachers. I, I mean, I think, because the, the people giving us the information are the teachers, it kind of feels like the pilot You're right. I like that. They're the leader, and then the teachers are just doing the, the, um, the flight attendants are doing as they're told.

Cathy Marks Krpan 9:19

Yeah. Right? And I was so curious. Like, you could see It was really fascinating because the, um, cab- the cabin, the captain's cabin, was open. The cockpit? Cockpit, yeah. Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia 9:27

okay, okay.

Cathy Marks Krpan 9:28

Yeah. You say potato, I say potato. But yeah, I think that's a better word for it. And I just was fascinated with the And you just wonder, like, what's going on in there? Like, what is happening?

Vanessa Vakharia 9:37

Right.

Cathy Marks Krpan 9:37

Like, there's lights flashing. Should we be concerned that that light is flashing from where I am?

Vanessa Vakharia 9:41

So can I ask you a question?

Cathy Marks Krpan 9:42

You sure can.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:42

What are, when- Are you nervous that something bad is gonna happen to the plane, or are you nervous that your plan is gonna be derailed?

Cathy Marks Krpan 9:49

No, I'm, I'm, I'm nervous that I'm gonna probably, yeah, that something's gonna happen to the plane, I'm gonna die. That's basically it. I, I'm not-

Vanessa Vakharia 9:55

Really?

Cathy Marks Krpan 9:55

I, I love flying. I'm very calm. I love it, but when something happens that's not normal, my mind starts racing about what that could be. Yeah. Like, I remember as a kid, if I was on a plane, again, and I, I was telling my dad, "Oh my God, what's this?" I hear bump, bump, bump, bump, bump. "Oh, don't worry about it. It's called turbulence. It's like," but, "It's like going over bumps when you're in a car." And I remember as a kid thinking, "Hell to no, it's not like that." Like, we're 3,000, 30,000 feet above the earth.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:26

So you, okay. So this also makes me think too, like, especially looking at that childhood mind of, like, something we think is, like, a rational thing to say, like, "Oh, don't worry about it. It just works out. You just keep, change, flip, and it's going to work out." Yeah. "You just do this."

Cathy Marks Krpan 10:39

You gotta trust. Gotta trust.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:40

You gotta trust. Kids are not feeling that vibe.

Cathy Marks Krpan 10:43

No.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:43

And they are probably thinking something they can't articulate, like, "That's not good enough for me," or, "Why should I trust it?" And I think once they don't- Yeah trust something and they don't under- Because here's the other thing. We keep telling everyone, we are born as natural problem-solvers. Kids inherently love to do math before- Yeah it gets, like, scared out of them. They like to solve problems. They like to understand. We like understanding. So when we do that to a kid or an adult, when we just shut that down by saying, "Just don't worry. Just believe me." Yeah, yeah. "And just stay chill and do what I say," that actually, I think, kills the curiosity they innately have.

Cathy Marks Krpan 11:16

Yeah, for sure. For sure. And we're not equipping them with skillsets and the ability to sort of navigate and sit comfortable with the unknown, which is important too- But do you- to give them skillsets

Vanessa Vakharia 11:28

do you think we do that? Like, do you think in the plane situation they're doing that because they don't understand? Like, you know how sometimes teachers do that 'cause they're like, "Don't ask me questions 'cause I actually don't know"?

Cathy Marks Krpan 11:37

That's possible, and it's just to keep everyone calm, like me-

Vanessa Vakharia 11:40

Right

Cathy Marks Krpan 11:41

on the plane. And I just wanna say for the record, I, I don't mind flying.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:44

Yeah, we know.

Cathy Marks Krpan 11:46

But stop it.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:47

We, you've said it a few times.

Cathy Marks Krpan 11:49

But I

Developing trust with students

Cathy Marks Krpan 11:50

just

Vanessa Vakharia 11:50

You know, it's funny you say this, 'cause I don't know you that well, and most of our interactions have been on these two flights. Okay? But what I will say is this. So you took the analogy in this way. The way I was thinking about it is I was like, to me, it feels like something on the teacher end. Like, we are so uncomfortable with uncertainty on that plane. Like, you're like, "I need to know what's gonna happen." Yeah. You're kind of thinking the worst is gonna happen. To me, it kind of reminded me of when, like, a lesson gets derailed.

Cathy Marks Krpan 12:16

Right. Absolutely. It's, it's that whole piece and the expectation that everyone's treated the same, everybody has to sit in their seats, everybody blah, blah, blah, and just don't interfere

Vanessa Vakharia 12:28

but what's interesting to me is in both of these circumstances, things have worked out for the best, and we've had a great story to tell, and it's like we've gotten to where everything's fine, but you still in both situations so quickly started thinking the worst.

Cathy Marks Krpan 12:43

Absolutely. Because, I mean, I'm just saying, I just, I like to know. The more information I have-

Vanessa Vakharia 12:50

Yes

Cathy Marks Krpan 12:51

the less stress I, stressed I become.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:54

So I act-

Cathy Marks Krpan 12:54

So- Yeah that's it. Like-

Vanessa Vakharia 12:57

If they had said, "We're having technical difficulties. The air conditioning isn't working-

Cathy Marks Krpan 13:02

Yeah, we gotta figure that out

Vanessa Vakharia 13:02

and we just wanna make sure you don't have a hot flight," wouldn't you have felt so much better?

Cathy Marks Krpan 13:05

Yes, yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:06

Cause you're like, "Oh, it's-"

Cathy Marks Krpan 13:07

If you trust the person saying that. Is it a coverup for something bigger? We don't know, right?

Vanessa Vakharia 13:12

Yeah, so it sounds like you're a very suspicious person.

Cathy Marks Krpan 13:14

Well, I'm, even as a kid, going on, um... We have this, this exhibition, it's called the, the Canadian National Exhibition. They have all sorts of rides. Yeah. It's an amazing place, and I still go every year. But I, as a kid, I would not go on any rides, and, and it was great for my parents 'cause I, they, nobody would have to go on with me. And the reason was because I thought, "I'm not getting up in that contraption. Anything can happen, and that person there is gonna be in charge of my life." That's how I thought it at, like, 10, 11 years old, so yeah, I guess-

Vanessa Vakharia 13:47

That is-

Cathy Marks Krpan 13:47

it all comes back.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:48

It does all come back, but I think what you said is so-

Cathy Marks Krpan 13:50

Is this a ther- is this a therapy session

Vanessa Vakharia 13:52

I'm wondering, because I'm like, now this is actually about trusting the person in the front of the room.

Cathy Marks Krpan 13:57

Well, and trusting the person, yes. Trusting the person in the front of the room, and how do you develop that trust? It's not just... It, it takes... It's a journey to develop that trust.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:07

But how do you do that with students?

Cathy Marks Krpan 14:09

You do that with students with getting to know who they are. But not only getting to know who they are, but ensuring that they know that you are making the effort to get to know who they are, and that you are-

Vanessa Vakharia 14:19

Give me, like, two things you do, or one thing, your favorite thing.

Cathy Marks Krpan 14:23

I would sit down. the kids in my class, they were grade eight- And they had really challenging home lives, like to the point where I could not survive what some of them experienced. Mm. Like, I, I just... It was amazing. If... When they showed up, it was a celebration in my heart At the beginning of the year and throughout the year, I would have a one-on-one interview with each student and say, "Here are some of the things that I'm observing about you, that I'm getting to know about you, that I really like. And I just wanna tell you the things that I just really admire about you." Full stop. That was it, every time. And it made a difference. Um, some of the kids came up to me and said, "It's the first time anyone has ever told me anything-

Vanessa Vakharia 15:06

Oh, my God

Cathy Marks Krpan 15:07

that they like about me. It's the first time." N- n- not just even teachers, but anybody. And so just-

Vanessa Vakharia 15:12

How old are these kids?

Cathy Marks Krpan 15:13

Uh, grade eight, so-

Vanessa Vakharia 15:15

Like middle school, like-

Cathy Marks Krpan 15:16

Yeah middle school. Middle school, yeah. And it made a difference. But it wasn't just... It was for me to get to know them-

Vanessa Vakharia 15:23

Mm-hmm

Cathy Marks Krpan 15:24

and to understand them as much as possible and to create a relationship, because nothing was gonna happen in that classroom without a relationship of some sort. Um-

Vanessa Vakharia 15:35

And what I'm hearing you say, which is really interesting, is often, I think, when we think about getting to know our kids, I'm not saying this is wrong, but we think, "Oh, we need to know, like, what their hobbies are and what TV shows they watch." But I think that's one way of getting to know them, but what I'm hearing you say is simply observing and being able to point out what you understand about their character.

Cathy Marks Krpan 15:52

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:52

Like things- Yeah that they might not see in themselves. Like, "You're a really funny person- Yes or you're..." You know what I mean? Like-

Cathy Marks Krpan 15:57

Yes. All of that. See- And, and, and, and, and it's gonna be different for each kid.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:02

Mm-hmm.

Cathy Marks Krpan 16:02

And that I'm not just saying, "Oh, everybody's so great. I really love you. I love the way you're engaging. I love all this stuff." No.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:08

Well, hold on. Yeah, tell me what's wrong with that or what you don't love about that approach.

Cathy Marks Krpan 16:12

I feel it's superficial. Too general. I feel it's the wah, wah, wah, wah. And I think what's really important is to get to know each kid as best as we can, each student as best... as a person, as a human being.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:24

So talk to the-

Cathy Marks Krpan 16:25

And that takes work. That takes work.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:26

Well, and I'm sure there's, there's teachers listening who are like, "I would love to, but, like, I've got like four classes of 30 kids. How do I do that?"

Cathy Marks Krpan 16:33

So you don't have to get to everybody every day. So I might do two kids a day. Two kids a day, just sit down and just have that one-on-one. Or sometimes what I would do is say, um, you know, "Does anyone wanna chat?" You know, and they knew what that meant. They knew what that meant, and they, they could come up and say, "Yeah, let's chat." So I just, it, yeah, it doesn't take much. And I know we always encourage when they're at work and when they're doing things, but to me, that connection of talking to them and them talking to me and said, "What are some things that, you know, you're concerned about in the class or anything like that, and let's have a con- conversation that way." So they get to know. So there was one student. And the other thing I always do, they didn't have to stay in their desks because it just didn't work. It didn't work with this class to stay in their desks. It wasn't their way. So I would just say, "Huddle up." So they would come. When we would teach, when I would teach math, they would come. Some would be on the floor, some would be on desks, some would be on chairs they'd bring up, but we'd just be in a really nice, intimate, intimate community, like, just close together. And that's so much nicer than like, "Hello, back there. You know, do you know the a-" And it was great for class management too, right? But...

Vanessa Vakharia 17:48

Well, y- so going back to that idea of connection because even what you're saying- Yeah about the huddling, that also has to do with connection. It has to do with everybody sorta like being together. It kinda gets rid of the, um, like the hierarchy of like you're at the back, you're at the front.

Cathy Marks Krpan 18:01

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:01

I know this might seem really obvious, but I think, I- I- I think there are, are a lot of folks, and I completely understand why, I think at a certain point I wasn't able to explain, and I would love to hear from you why you think this is important. Because I know that there is this idea of, we don't have time for connection. We've gotta teach content. Tell us why it actually, like you said, nothing would've happened in this class without me getting to know my students. What, tell me how it worked. Like, why did it make that difference?

Cathy Marks Krpan 18:29

Because it, it built that trust, and it brought down some walls that these kids had up. I mean, they were tough kids. They, yeah, they were, they were... I learned so much from them, right? I remember, and, and I remember at the time, um, they, I would, I would call home as well, and they were, "Miss M?" I said, "Yeah, put your mom," or whoever's on the, your guardian, whoever- Yeah your caretaker, and I would say something positive to that person about that child, that student, that whatever. And it, yeah, it takes time, but I, I'm, I'm not there just to teach the content and, and I believed in that, and so I took the time, and it took a lot of time. Yeah, it did, but it built relationships, and those kids felt seen. Um, they felt respected. Did we still have classroom management issues? Yes. But- It happened through humanity. It was a more, it was just a connection. So-and-so, you know, "Sorry, miss." Like that kind of thing.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:35

Yeah. A- 100%.

Your students are complex emotional humans

Vanessa Vakharia 19:37

And it's so funny, we, like literally an hour ago, I was like, "You know what, Cathy? You remind me of my high school math teacher," and that was what she would do. She always made a point to call home to say something nice. Yeah, yeah. I remember my parents, the first time it happened, it was the first time a teacher had ever said anything nice about me to them. Before, it was all, the only reason to call home is if there's a problem.

Cathy Marks Krpan 19:58

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia 19:58

yeah. And it really changes the dynamic because not only, like, does it build trust with the parents, who often are like, "What is happening in this classroom?" But the student is like, "Oh my God, this teacher is on my side."

Cathy Marks Krpan 20:12

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:12

Right? She's not just there to, like, berate me or to make me feel bad or whatever. Like, she's got my back. She wants me to feel good.

Cathy Marks Krpan 20:17

But we're there to teach kids, and I just love... And even with my grad students, even with my pre-service students, I love getting to know who they are beyond just the classroom. I think that's just important. That's about being human. That's about building these relationships. And I know we're busy, but I think it makes a lot of difference for these kids. I don't... The content will get taught, but I think the relationships and trust, I think that goes a long way. I really do.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:46

Well, and I always say it's like, yes, it takes time, but it also takes time to have to reteach something over and over again because no one's paying attention. Yeah. And when people feel seen, they're more likely to pay attention, right? Yeah. They're more likely to take that risk to try because there is that trust, and I, I think in the end you save time.

Cathy Marks Krpan 21:02

Absolutely.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:03

I really do think in the end you save time. If you look at the year as a whole, maybe it's like you're front-loading the time 'cause you've gotta get to know them, you gotta make the phone calls, you gotta do the interviews, but they're going to be more engaged, which means you're gonna save time.

Cathy Marks Krpan 21:14

It was a f- yeah, and it was a fascinating year because the other thing that I've never shared all these stories, but the other thing... see that? You get an exclusive. Um. The other thing I would do, just because I, I just enjoyed it, um, I would stay in my class... Okay, two things. Number one, I didn't have a teacher's desk. It was out of the classroom because-

Vanessa Vakharia 21:35

Very Peter Liljedahl of you

Cathy Marks Krpan 21:37

I feel that the teacher's desk is always placed at a location that is prime real estate in the classroom. It's by the window. It's by somewhere. I want my kids to have that real estate. I don't want it. So, I took that out, and I just had bins, which was great.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:52

Bins for what? To sit on?

Cathy Marks Krpan 21:53

Bins, no. Bins to put my stuff in.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:56

Oh, okay.

Cathy Marks Krpan 21:56

And my students didn't use the desk. You know, when they put sh- shit in the desks-

Vanessa Vakharia 22:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Cathy Marks Krpan 22:00

and you have to clean out their desk? Boom. So, I had bins. Their math book for, for, were in the bins and whatever.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:04

What grade are you talking about? Still middle school?

Cathy Marks Krpan 22:06

It could be middle school, so I had 7-1, 7-2, 8-1, 8-2. But even when I taught, um, grade four, grade five, grade- Okay grade three, everything was in the bins. Okay. So, if I wanted their language arts notebook, it was there. Um, but it, it was just, um, over lunch, um, at the, the middle school level I would, I would eat my lunch in the classroom and I said, "If anybody wants to come in and do work or whatever, or hang out, you can," and they would. And it was really fascinating to me, um, over recess, "Miss, can I come in?" Because you'd hear their conversations, right? I'm right there. I mean- So you're learning stuff about them and about real, like, it's like Real Housewives kind of thing, so it's-

Vanessa Vakharia 22:45

I was gonna say, it's your own reality show, but it's productive because you want to get to know them.

Cathy Marks Krpan 22:50

It was amazing. It was amazing. And I'd say, "You know I'm here." "Yes, Miss. We know you're here, but we're g- we're, we wanna talk about..." Okay, fine.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:56

So you're not making Because, I mean, obviously you need a break, so you're kind of like, "I, you're, I'm, you're not gonna ask me for help, but feel free to sit near me and also eat your lunch."

Cathy Marks Krpan 23:03

Yeah, or just sit in the classroom. We'd play music. I'd play music, and it was just great, and that's another way we've just built... I just loved it. It was so great. I love being- In the classroom

Vanessa Vakharia 23:12

You were just the be- We, we- I'm still really, I wanna hang on to, like I'm still really thinking about this idea of like when we say getting to know our students, it can mean so many things. It can mean finding out what their favorite TV show is. It can mean finding out if they have siblings. It can mean just hearing them talk and being like, "Oh my God, I'm really noticing that like she's the one in the group that keeps making everyone laugh." Like, do you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. Like, it can be any of those things. Like, you can learn through observation. And like I always say this about compliments. You remember how earlier you were like, "It's really superficial to just be like, 'Oh, I notice you're engaged'"? Yeah. If I like said to you, like, "You look really great today," that'd be fine.

Cathy Marks Krpan 23:47

Well, thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:48

Right. But if I was like, "I love your hair." Yeah, yeah. Like, the colors in it- Yeah are really making your eyes pop, it's like that's for you.

Cathy Marks Krpan 23:56

Yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:56

Right? Yeah. And so like to make sure you're saying something like that to a student for them to be like, "Wow, she really sees me."

Cathy Marks Krpan 24:02

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:03

It's not just lip service. And because she really sees me, I feel like I actually have value here.

Cathy Marks Krpan 24:08

Yeah, absolutely, and maybe they'll start seeing other people as well. Mm. Like, maybe it, it continues, right, the journey and everything that's happening and, and, you know, when they're upset and so-and-so's not going to the dance because of so-and-so. And that all comes into play, right? When they come in that classroom, whatever, whatever grade level it is, what's happening on the outside, what's happening at recess, that comes in, and that's part of the journey that we're taking with our students. And you can't, yeah and I still do that. I still do that even with my university students. Like, "Oh, something's off today. I don't fee- I feel something is... Are you, are you okay?" And when we st- and then s- all of a sudden something happened that blah blah blah blah, and they want me to know and whatever. So-

Vanessa Vakharia 24:50

And that's so, that, I think this is part of that conversation of you ca- like you said, we're teaching kids, not content.

Cathy Marks Krpan 24:55

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:55

We're teaching people, so you, you can't If you wanna be like, "Well, their lives and who they are have nothing to do with content," like, you're gonna be very disappointed to find out that a lesson just might not land.

Cathy Marks Krpan 25:05

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:06

Because stuff, if something's going on with us, it's going on with us period.

Cathy Marks Krpan 25:10

We're hu- we're, we're emotional beings. Yeah. And, and, and math tends to be, as you very well know, um, an anxiety-provoking- Yeah kind of thing. Um, and it's the way it's taught sometimes. It's, it's past experiences that people have. And by the time students get to even grade four or grade five, grade si- they've already solidified how they think of school, how they think of teachers, how they think of mathematics. So I'd like to be that person to kind of undo that a little bit if there's some negativity there- Mm-hmm and just sort of sit with that. Because the best classroom management strategies are not gonna work if the kids do not trust who we are, if the students don't trust who we are, or even know who we are, right? It's about us taking the risk and sharing who we are as well and, and that kind of thing.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:01

Yeah. What's a good, like, first thing for someone to share if we have someone listening who's like, "I never tell my students anything about me. Like, I don't want them to know personal stuff about me"?

Cathy Marks Krpan 26:10

I just think, you know, what did you do on the we- what did everybody do on the weekend? Here's something I did on the weekend, or here's something Oh, you know, I'm trying to learn to cook, or I'm trying to learn to do this, or I'm trying to learn to do that. And I think photos of different things, if you have pets. I know that sounds superficial, but it connects a bit to, uh-

Vanessa Vakharia 26:27

It humanizes you, right? This... Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's like sometimes we don't humanize the students, and often the students don't humanize teachers. They're like, "It's just this person, this gremlin trying to, like, force me to do fractions."

Cathy Marks Krpan 26:36

Can I tell you a st- Of I like clothing, and I like just ensembles, putting things together.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:40

We both have full-size suitcases for a three-day trip.

Cathy Marks Krpan 26:43

That, this is true. Manipulatives aside. And so my students would take notice of what I would wear. And the reason why I think I'm gonna dress as best I can, like I do for anybody, uh, because one time when I was teaching, um, the students noticed that I was dressed up better than usual, 'cause I had an interview or something. "Oh, I, you know, I have an appointment." And then another day I came in dressed up and thinking, "Oh, she must have another appointment." It made me realize, you know what? I shouldn't be dressing for appointments. You're my most important appointment.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:17

Oh, my God.

Cathy Marks Krpan 27:18

So that's why I just try... and I, and I don't mean, like, you know, Gucci and whatever. I'm just saying just to look-

Vanessa Vakharia 27:25

Yeah

Cathy Marks Krpan 27:26

whatever it means to look and dress for that individual, that would be what I would do for my students, so I was teaching grade eights. And they would say, "Miss, Miss." like one time I wore, said, "Oh, Miss, like that color's too bright, Miss. Oh my gosh." "Like shut down the lights, man." "Like what's going on?" Miss, Miss, that's like a 4 out of 10." "4 out of 10? This is a 4 out of 10?" And I, and I, and I wrote 4 out of 10 on the board. And so the next day we'd have 4 out of 10, and I said, "Okay, we're gonna..." Right. This is horrible, but I- it worked. Said, "What about this outfit? What do you think?" "Miss, that's a 6." "Why is it a 6?" We put the- and we did like de- I taught decimals that way.

Vanessa Vakharia 28:06

Okay.

Cathy Marks Krpan 28:07

So, so that we would, like, and we did. So then one time I'm getting ready and I'm thinking, "What am I gonna wear?" And I asked Tony, my husband, I said, "You know what? I don't know what to wear." He goes, "Why don't you wear blah, blah, blah?" I said, "I'm not wearing blah, blah, blah. That's a 3 out of 10." "I'm not putting that on." According to my grade eight student, that doesn't even... But it was, it was an ongoing joke with us around that. Um, it wasn't about making judgments about people's clothing, but they, it was a way to get to these kids-

Vanessa Vakharia 28:35

What I'm

Cathy Marks Krpan 28:35

hearing is- and actually make it meaningful to them, 'cause then all of a sudden we started having averages and it was fun.

Vanessa Vakharia 28:41

Well, what I'm hearing is you did exactly what you've been talking about this entire podcast, which is you got to know them. Yeah. You observed that they were interested- They were interested in this thing. And you were like, "It appears that you're really interested in what I'm wearing." So

Cathy Marks Krpan 28:54

I c- It doesn't matter what it was. Like, if I was wearing a Michigan sweatshirt, that was a big deal to them.

Vanessa Vakharia 28:58

Yeah. You noticed what they were interested in.

Cathy Marks Krpan 29:01

They love them, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:01

And then you took, and also I'd like to say by you writing those numbers on the board, they now have ownership over that.

Cathy Marks Krpan 29:05

Oh, yeah. It was funny.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:06

They created that scale.

Cathy Marks Krpan 29:07

It was great. It

Empower people with choice and agency

Cathy Marks Krpan 29:08

was great.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:08

Oh my God, okay, this has been amazing. I don't know what we've been talking about for half an hour. Me too. It started with... But let m- uh, you know what? You're gonna, you're gonna love how I'm about to land the plane. Ah! Okay?

Cathy Marks Krpan 29:19

You got it on time.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:19

Because, okay, we on time because what we are talking about now is flight adjacent. Because the other thing Cathy has taught me is about packing, okay? She is the one who last year made me feel okay about bringing a full size suitcase.

Cathy Marks Krpan 29:34

Don't shame people because they have large suitcases. Like, what difference does it make? You bring on, you know, you be you. You bring on your little fat knapsack on the plane- we're fine with that I'm gonna pack, and even if my suitcase is empty, I'm gonna live large, fill it up, do what I need to do because I want choice. I want choice. I don't care if choice is about sweatshirts, if it's about jeans, if it's about dresses, if it's about pants. I don't care. I want choice. That is it. I make no excuses. No excuses.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:11

And how I'm gonna tie this together right now is in all of the research around trauma-informed education, it has been shown that one of the key things that will help an anxious student or a student that is exhibiting off-task behavior because their needs aren't being met is to give them choice. Yes. Choice of any kind, exactly like she just said. It could be the sweatshirts. It could be what, do you wanna write with pencil or pen? Do you wanna work in a group or individually? Do you wanna do it on the whiteboard, or do you wanna do it on a piece of paper? Do you wanna work at your seat or on the carpet? That alone. Do you wanna do this question or that question? I've given you 10 questions. Pick two that you wanna do. When you do that, a student is always more likely to do the task if there is any element of choice.

Cathy Marks Krpan 30:51

Yes. And we're helping them navigate the unknown because we're helping them make decisions on their own about different things, so that is really critical.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:01

We just... Yeah, no, keep going, but we are landing. Just- We are landing the plane

Cathy Marks Krpan 31:04

just like packing that suitcase, baby.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:06

Just like packing that suitcase. Just like packing that suitcase. Just like us having the choice in the very beginning. And you know what, to say, I would have loved if on a plane, this is what bothers me when there's all these difficulties, if they would give us choice, if they would say something like "you know what? You guys can get on the plane or off the plane while you wait." I understand logistically they can't do that sometimes.

Cathy Marks Krpan 31:23

"Do you want a $10,000 voucher for a hotel or not?" Like, that's it.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:27

Or even like, "Do you want water? Do you want..." Instead of being like, "Here's water," "Do you want a beverage? Pick. Do you want a sna-..." Like, "Do you want this or that?" Like, "Would you prefer to... You guys can get up and move around," instead of just, "Sit still. Be quiet. Don't ask questions. You have no choice. You have no agency."

Cathy Marks Krpan 31:43

Yeah, but there could be laws Like aviation laws that we don't know about that could kibosh everything

Vanessa Vakharia 31:48

we just said. If any pilots are listening to this podcast, please touch us. We'd love to hear from you. If you are a pilot, maybe you're a teacher with a pilot spouse or friend- feel free to let us know what you think of our analogy. Did we land the plane? We can't wait to hear from you. Cathy- This is it this was, this was so much fun. This was great. Did you have fun? I did. Oh. Okay, wait. Let, let me ask you the question I ask every podcast guest. Uh-oh. Okay? Before we- Yeah land land. Okay, we're on the tarmac. Okay, we're going to the gate.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 32:13

Question number one: What would you say if somebody said to you, "You know what? I love everything you're saying, but y- I, I'm just never gonna get it. It doesn't matter if I have choice. It doesn't matter if that. I'm just not a math person."

Cathy Marks Krpan 32:26

I think it's about where you are, look at who you are, and what you've done. I think it's about highlighting past successes- Oof of what somebody has done, and going into the past and saying, "What do you mean by that?" And I think also, and it's about landing the plane for what we said, what do you mean by a math person? What is a math person? 'Cause if their understanding is a math person that they have an applied sci- like a, a math degree of some sort, or they're a physicist, well, in that category that you've created for yourself, that you are probably not that kind of math person. Um, but what do you understand? Like, what are the other examples of what a math person can be?

Vanessa Vakharia 33:08

I love

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 33:09

it. And finally, if there's one thing, only one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?

Cathy Marks Krpan 33:15

Humanity. Make it more human, more emotionally connected to the person.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:22

What perfect timing. I think a session is about to come in here right now.

Cathy Marks Krpan 33:25

Maybe we should-

Vanessa Vakharia 33:25

Maybe we should just be the session. Should we just set up a PowerPoint?

Cathy Marks Krpan 33:29

Yeah. Quick, quick, quick, right now.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:31

Safety demonstration.

Cathy Marks Krpan 33:32

Yeah. There you go.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:33

Okay. You're the best. Love you. Bye.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 33:38

Oh my God, I just love her so much. And honestly, I would have continued the convo, but, like, the next session speaker walked into the room to set up for his session. And while this is unrelated, I would like to add that this man told me he was a school principal. And why does that matter to you? Well, because he asked me what I was doing in the room, and I was like, "Blah, blah, I was just recording a podcast about math anxiety." And then he told me, at this math education conference that we were both at, that he had never heard of math anxiety, which, like, I don't know, I found kind of concerning as a principal. I was like, "How is this possible?" And, like, obviously, no shade to him. Obviously, it's never too late to learn something new, and I hope he went home and looked into it, but it does show us how much work there is to be done around understanding the complicated relationship students have with math. So at least we're all out here doing the work. I hope you guys loved this impromptu conversation with Cathy as much as I did. Please do text us and tell us if we landed the plane and what your biggest takeaway was. We wanna hear from you. I hope you guys are having the best summer. Thank you all for making Math Therapy a part of your poolside PD, and I'll see you next week.

Outtake - bracelets while recording

Vanessa Vakharia 34:48

we haven't discussed why we think that this entire story is a metaphor for teaching.

Cathy Marks Krpan 34:52

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:53

That's true. I have to take these bracelets off 'cause David will kill me. Okay. Hold the mic, and you can keep talking. Okay, so I wanna know-

Cathy Marks Krpan 34:58

And how, how would he kill you? That would be another podcast.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:00

Well, he would get He got really mad last time I did this, 'cause they're too jingly.

Cathy Marks Krpan 35:04

Well, mine's jingly. Is mine too jingly?

Vanessa Vakharia 35:06

No, you just have one. Like, see how I have a million? Oh, okay. Okay, we're back.

Cathy Marks Krpan 35:08

Okay.