Lauren Keeling

Lauren 0:03

I have to shake off this identity. So I just can no longer hold onto I'm not a math person and smile when I say it, because that does a disservice to me as a smart human woman of the world who is capable of a thousand things. I had the realization that when I say I'm not a math person, I'm taking away from who I am. I needed to cement that in who I was in order to make this journey authentic, for me as a person who's grappling through better understanding who I am, but two, to your very point, better understanding about how we talk to kids about math,

Vanessa Vakharia 0:36

Okay, guys. Hi, welcome to another episode of Math Therapy, and to part two of a very special two-part series where you actually get to go along for the ride as I help someone with a lifelong fear of math transform their entire identity through math therapy. And yeah, I'm aware of how outrageously egotistical that sounds, and that I'm prone to exaggerating, but, like, you'll just have to trust me this time. So last week we shared my live one-on-one math therapy session with Lauren Keeling, which was originally recorded as part of Heart Work's Math Anxiety podcast series by Imagine Learning, and you got to experience math therapy in action. If you missed it, we'll link to the show notes, no worries. Today's episode is basically like a Love Island reunion. You know when the cast comes back months after the season wraps to spill the tea on what's happened since the show aired? Well, that's what's happening today, because Lauren joins the podcast four months later to share what changed for her since she flew across the continent to visit me in Toronto for her first ever math therapy session. I cannot wait for you to hear how Lauren went from someone who literally believed to her core that she was not a math person, to someone who now, as of the recording of this episode, has 131-day math streak on Duolingo. This is not just about going from point A to point B. It's about everything that happened in between, and all of the actions that moved the dial for Lauren, so that you can discover the high-impact shifts that can help you, your students, and your math-hating bestie repair that toxic relationship with math. And Lauren uncovers something that neither of us ever expected, that there may have been a part of her that actually didn't want to let go of her math-hating identity, because it was actually serving a purpose. We get into all of this and so much more, and I cannot wait for you to hear it, and I know you're thinking of that person you need to send this to, so take a second to pause and do that right now, and then let's get into it.

Lauren's history with math identity

Vanessa Vakharia 2:35

Oh my God. Okay. Lauren, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited you're here

Lauren 2:39

Oh, I am delighted to be here. I've been counting down the minutes to my moment again with you

Vanessa Vakharia 2:45

this whole tale begins because Lauren flew to get math therapy from me in person as part of The Heart Work podcast series, which was a deep dive on math anxiety. She literally flew across the country to come to my place to get math therapy in person. So we had the most amazing time, and now we are going to do a, a, what is this? A pr- an epilogue? A after the fact? A denouement? Like, what is this called?

Lauren 3:13

A follow-up?

Vanessa Vakharia 3:14

Right, yep, yep, that's what it's called, a follow-up. We're gonna do a follow-up. Can you tell us who Lauren was, like, pre-math therapy? Like, if I had asked you then, "Who are you in relation to math?" how would you have answered?

Lauren 3:27

I'd wear a T-shirt that says, "Not a math person." Truly, that is the best way to describe me. I wrapped myself into, snuggled into that identity so deeply and thoroughly and just lived it, right? Like, I was not a math person, so much so that, um, on my first job interview for my first teaching job, I said, "Not a math person." When I was thinking about the career I wanted when I went into undergrad, the very first thing was, the one that has the least amount of math classes that I have to take?" So, I think just to, you know, put that in a really succinct moment, it's just I was not a math person, and I

Vanessa Vakharia 4:07

Hmm

Lauren 4:08

Who I was was not math. And even more definitively, I was never going to be a math person or never going to be math in any capacity.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:19

Oh my God, that was perfect. The T- I think the T-shirt visual is, it gives me a vision of, like, everyone on social media right now that is, like, liking all of the memes and reposting all of the reels that are like, "Not a math person. Don't talk to me about math." Like, "I've moved on," that kind of thing. So it's kind of nice to have you, a real person, on the screen. Not that we're all the same, but somebody who's like, "Yeah, that's how I would have described myself." I remember during our interview together Because, I mean, let's back up a bit. You were flown across the country to come do Math Therapy in person, right? You were the, like, the, the, the main character of this. How did you feel as, like, this being your journey, being like, "I'm about to go investigate math anxiety, and as a part of that, I have to dig into my own math anxiety"? What was the vibe around that?

Lauren 5:05

So in the big picture, I thought this is gonna be a great concept to explore because having, being a math person, I'm not a math person, is a community. And, and search for each other out in the world. As we're moving and talking and thinking and asking questions, we're like honing in on who our other not-math people are. So I really thought the conversation was critical, and, and it felt important to be curious about how everyone else navigated. I say that in that weird way because the last thing I wanted to do was navigate my own feelings about math I held firmly to who I was, what I was, what I believed about math, what I believed about my own ability about math, what that relationship was in my everyday life. And when my team pitched that they wanted me, wanted me to center in on this conversation and sort of, um, explore what it really was through the lens of Lauren Keeling, and then ultimately little Lauren as a child, it just made me really, uncomfortable. Now, I would do anything for my team because I trust their vision implicitly. We've been through this work a lot together, and, um, they're smart, and I love that they're smart. But personally, when I grappled with did I actually wanna peel back the layers of what was ultimately gonna be this onion of my math feelings, just didn't know that I actually wanted to. So when we booked the tickets, when my team found the hotel, when we started thinking about what we were gonna eat while we were there, I still really felt skeptical about any real or lasting change coming out of the work. And not because I, I doubted anything that The Math Guru was or say or help me think through. I, I knew a lot about you and learned a lot about you and believed in, in everything that you talked about. just didn't believe that had the capacity to any of those changes and then ultimately make them real.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:03

Hmm. I also wonder, I remember during our time together, you said something. I mean, I love what you just said here because this ties in. You had said something during our, like, Math Therapy session a few months ago where you were like, yes, it's partially that you don't know if you're able to change, but wasn't there a bit of a resistance to changing? And part of that reason being, I love how you just put it, being not a math person is a community, it's an identity, and if all of a sudden you were gonna change that, what happens to your community? Cause it's funny, you're like, "I didn't know that I didn't think I believed I could change." Is part of it that you didn't know that you wanted to change?

Lauren 7:37

I remember this really specific moment where we're just toward the end of our 27-hour conversation, um, 27-hour math therapy session, and we're snuggled into our seats and you said something about, "So do you-- you've kind of-- your identity has changed a little bit, right?" And I had just all that great work that we had done together, all of that conversation, I had this internal moment of panic where I think I even said out loud, "Does that mean that I'm a math person?"

Vanessa Vakharia 8:05

Yeah, like not in a good way. Like, you didn't say it in an excited way.

Lauren 8:08

I was not thrilled about this revelation and this potential shift in Lauren Keeling, the human being of the world. Um, so even in

Vanessa Vakharia 8:18

But tell us why. Yeah

Lauren 8:20

I-- it's who I am.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:22

Yeah

Lauren 8:23

maybe even as we started this podcast, words are my business. Words are what I know. Words are what I do. I, write, I talk, I think out loud, I ask questions, I synthesize, I say things. don't do numbers. And how does that change? that change what I'm good at? Does that change what I know best? Instead of, get to this I'm sure, time with you and the subsequent conversations after with so many other people, it doesn't necessarily change the composition of who I am. It just expands my world. It

Vanessa Vakharia 8:59

Hmm.

Lauren 9:00

of even bigger and even larger. So I was not there in that moment of panic where I said, "Does that mean I'm a math person?" I just hadn't arrived at that space yet. But it was a pivotal moment that, that kind of opened up this road for me or opened up this pathway that I didn't ever really consider as something I could step into or I could engage in. I, I mean, I'm speaking at NCTM, NCTE in a couple of weeks, which I would never, ever have applied to. yes, absolutely give me the teachers of English. Love it. We're together always and forever. Anything with the M at the end of it, I always tell my team it's just not my space. I won't connect. This won't work for me. Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:48

I'm so proud of you! Okay, and for those of you listening, so NCTE is National Council of Teachers of English, NCTM is National Council of Teachers of Math, and they do, they've started doing this joint conference, and I actually feel like you're, like, the reason. Like, I feel like this is, you should, like, be keynoting this conference. Do you know what I mean? Like, this is the whole point 'cause, yeah, because the whole point is to show that the two subjects are not divided. But hold on, we're getting ahead of ourselves. Let's back up for a sec. Because you're making me think a bunch of things. Like, I'm like, oh, it's so interesting that you were like, "I don't want my identity to change," right? That you had this resistance. And it's making me think, you know, people have different reactions, but I think what we've started noticing is we want to be, we want everyone to feel like a math person. We wanna tell everyone they're a math person. When someone says they're not a math person, we wanna jump in and be like, "But let me l- list you all the reasons why you are." And actually, I have noticed, and I know a lot of people have noticed, the result is not what we want, right? It's like mo- we want people to have this aha moment and be like, "Oh my God, amazing," but that doesn't happen. I think part of the reason is they don't believe us, right? They've had no experience to prove otherwise. But you're touching on something really important that I don't think we're considering, which is a lot of folks are like, "I don't want my identity to change," because it's not just about the math. Like, not being a math person is about other things. I wonder if we can dig a bit deeper. Like, you said, not being a math pers- because I, I, because I think this helps us understand our students, our friends, our counterparts that say they're not math people, and why they hang on so much to it. Part of it is they really believe that. Part of it is that they've had negative math experiences. But let's dig a little more into this idea of why were you upset that you might be a math person? Like, what would that mean? Would it, would it mean some other things about you? Would it take away from what you are good at? Like, what were... I know you can't speak on behalf of everyone, but I'm curious, like, what was going through your mind?

Lauren 11:37

So for me, being a words person means I'm good at words, and that communicates to the world that this is something that I have capacity to be skilled at, that this is something that I can produce for you, and make meaning of. To then adopt, "I'm a math person," or, or, "I math," right? Or, "I can be a mather," as our dear friend Deborah says. There is a level of expertise that comes with a statement like that, that I don't feel like I own or that Or that I have. So by saying, "I'm a mather," I'm kind of telling the world that I'm here for math and can do it confidently and side by side, and, you yeah all of these things with math. And I think that's a really critical identity change for me because I, as most people, I hope do, please don't let me be alone in the world in this, I only really like to dive deep into things that I know that I have an understanding of. That isn't to say that I don't like to be curious about everything. I wanna know all the things about all the things that everybody loves and wants to do. But when it comes to me, um, sharing my understanding, sharing my thinking, sharing how I conceptualize things, I want it to be a space where I know I have some confidence and some, mastery. And I still don't necessarily believe that I have the mastery of math as a concept to be able to claim being a "mather" I have attached expertise to it in a way that's actually probably really unfair to that beautiful statement

Vanessa Vakharia 13:09

Well, I'm sure, I, I think there's, there's so much going on here too, because I think that's why Deborah Peart came up with the term Mather because we're like, well, when we say mathematician, it implies profession. It, it implies a certain degree of knowing. At least when we say Mather, the idea is math is something we do, right? It doesn't matter what math, it doesn't matter how advanced the math is, it doesn't matter, like, it just like we acknowledge that like ma- you know, math is a thing we do. Just like being a reader, it doesn't mean like you have to read Shakespeare or you teach Shakespeare, it's just like you read, right? That can mean so many different things. So I mean, all, all of that,

How she felt after getting math therapy

Vanessa Vakharia 13:47

there is so much to unpack there. I'm very curious now, sitting here in front of me today, because we actually haven't talked about this, like I actually really don't know, I'm curious how you feel now. So we did a little snapshot of who you were when you walked into our first Math Therapy session. Do we feel the same now? Has it changed at all? Like, tell me, tell me what has happened in the past four months

Lauren 14:08

I have loosened the reins, given our, just given our conversation, I have loosened the reins on adding proficiency to a statement like, "I'm a mather." And it's for the very reason that you just explained. Having spent time with wonderful, thoughtful, math-forward friends like you and like Deborah, and listening to

Vanessa Vakharia 14:28

Math forward? I love math forward. Okay, cool

Lauren 14:33

So listening to Deborah explain what she means when she says the word mather, I'm a mather, there's a lot of release in that for me, because mather doesn't suggest proficiency or expertise or career or any of the things that we would layer onto it as adults, but also as children when we tell them, "Hey, you're really good at math", or, "You're really good at reading." we're putting a lot of pressure on a kid just by trying to celebrate them. We're celebrating something that they're excelling at but by the same time, we're putting a lot of pressure on them to then be proficient or to then show mastery, or then to continue to get better at math and show it, to continue to get better at reading and show it. So Deborah's language has really allowed me to release some of that pressure from myself that I, I can be a mather, and I can exist in this world as someone who is not terrified when the check comes. Or my best example of just the leap from where I was even six months ago, have moved into this new sweet house in Pennsylvania, and my husband and I have been slowly trying to unpack and hang things on the wall like you do and make it our own home. And yesterday we were hanging a huge portrait, a huge map of Texas on, um, the wall in our kitchen, which probably also just raises a bunch of questions about why is a huge map of Texas in your kitchen. But at any rate, it's up on the wall. We're getting ready to hang it up on the wall. He whips out the measuring tape, which would have just absolutely struck fear in my heart months ago, and he's trying to find center for this piece and on the wall, and he shouts out, not shouts out, he says, "Okay, so this is something and three quarters, and this one is something and a quarter. Um, we've gotta figure this part out." And I was like, "Wait, I can do it. I got it. I can answer this question.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:20

What?

Lauren 16:21

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:22

With fractions?

Lauren 16:24

with fractions, which that's

Vanessa Vakharia 16:27

What?

Lauren 16:28

as a teacher. Fractions

Vanessa Vakharia 16:29

Oh my... Okay

Lauren 16:31

says, "Fractions are okay. can think through this. I can do it." And I did it. Did I have him double check my answer? Would I have told him that we were just gonna go straightforward with what I decided? Yes and no.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:44

But that's good practice. That's good practice,

Lauren 16:47

yeah and it coming up in the real world, right? Like, so I think we talked a little bit about things I was more comfortable with sneaky math than I was, than I was with math math.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:57

Okay, define that, f- define that for us though

Lauren 16:59

Math math is when you know you're doing math. It's showing up, and you're seeing it, and you've gotta make it happen. Sneaky math is when I'm planning my garden and I'm using non-standard measurement, and the distance from one tomato plant to the other is from my pinky to my thumb. So I got that kind of math. That is no problem for me at all. But math math always is terrify- or not, not always is, always was terrifying to me. Um, yesterday was a real moment when we were using that measuring tape and putting that thing on the wall. It was just really a moment for me to see the, the distance, see how far I'd come. We are hanging this thing on the wall, and I just didn't even think twice about offering to solve the problem in front of us, knowing that it was actual fractions. And I wish we could put some, like, scary music in the background,

Vanessa Vakharia 17:49

will. David, I'll do that.

Lauren 17:51

feel, feel about them. Um, and I mean, I still don't, like, seek out opportunities to do fractions, but when this one presented itself, I was hand in the air, raised high, ready to do it.

How Duolingo helped see math as a language

Vanessa Vakharia 18:05

Okay, so hold, so I have a whole bunch of questions here because you're listing one moment, but it has been four months since I've seen you. I wanna back up and say a couple things here. First, what happened during our Math Therapy session is we had a great time, so much happened, fine, but I only gave Lauren one piece of let's call it homework. And that piece of homework was I told her to download the Duolingo app, which again, Duolingo should be sponsoring us the amount I talk about them. And I was like, "I just want you to use this app. It is two minutes a day. Duolingo recently added math as a language. Lauren loves languages." I was like, "I just want you to try it. It's literally two minutes a day for this thing. I want you to try it for a week and tell me what happens." Now, because Lauren is the other expert here, and I literally got a email from her today before our interview saying, "I'm on day 131 of Duolingo", and I quote, she said, "It might rank as top five in my greatest accomplishments in life." So before we get into why she was all of a sudden so comfortable answering this question about fractions, I'd like you to tell us about this Duolingo journey. First of all, when I assigned it to you for homework, were you re- were you like, "F you, I don't want it"? Like, what was the vibe? What happens inside? 'Cause I only wanted you to do it for a week, and here you are on day 131. I wanna know what role that has played in whatever's going on right now in your math rehab.

Lauren 19:25

So when we were, uh, doing this piece of it, my math rehab, that's so perfect.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:31

I'm into it. I'm into it. Okay, yep

Lauren 19:34

But when we were sitting on the couch and you introduced me to Duolingo Math as a language, and you're talking me through it, and I'm getting all of those great dings and beeps and, you know, super noises 'cause I'm so smart at math, basic addition, um, it was a delight, and that was really encouraging. But I also know me well enough to know that I'm just not great at, at committing to doing a math thing for a long time. Like, I'll jump into it and do it. But what I came to find, decided I was gonna commit to it for, I think we agreed seven days, right? Like a full

Vanessa Vakharia 20:06

Yeah

Lauren 20:07

it every day for a week, see how it feels, go on about your life as you see fit post that. So I committed to the seven days. I promised you I would do it. And so I did my seven days, but I had found some great success during those seven days in just kind of feeling good when I finished a lesson. Whether I got them all right, whether I didn't, just the sense of accomplishment of here I am doing a thing that is hard for me, that I don't like to do, that actually only takes about like 30 seconds of my day. That's not true, but you know, just a couple of minutes of my day in the

Vanessa Vakharia 20:38

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Lauren 20:39

and kind of get that dopamine hit, that feel of like, "Hey, I'm kind of smart sometimes when I do this thing." After the seventh day, I thought, okay, it pops up and says, "Do you want to extend your... Set a new goal?" And I thought, "Sure, I'll set a goal for 50 days. I can do 50 days of this because that's probably not all the way up to fractions. It's low level, basic level math, and

Vanessa Vakharia 21:02

What math were you doing? What was happening on that app?

Lauren 21:05

just beginner math, addition, subtraction,

Vanessa Vakharia 21:07

Okay

Lauren 21:09

multiplication, division. Those were just the basic levels of,

Vanessa Vakharia 21:14

Like operations.

Lauren 21:15

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia 21:16

Okay

Lauren 21:16

stuff that had just been drilled into me that I had some general familiarity with. So I just kept going, and then I got to 50 days, and 50 days was like, "Do you want to set a new goal?" And I said, "Yes, I want to set a new goal for 150 days."

Vanessa Vakharia 21:29

Okay, wait, hold on. So, so I have a question. You, you so casually just said, you know, "In the first seven days I was doing it, and even if I would get some wrong, I just felt good about doing this thing that was hard for me." I would like to pause on that, because that is a very prolific statement. We have been taught as educators currently today, that if we are giving students, um, an opportunity to be wrong, and they are wrong, that they are going to feel bad and not want to try again, right? Like, we are really being told as educators, we have to We're, we're not being told this specifically, but there's kind of a vibe out there that, like, we want students to feel right. And I would really like to unpack this little moment we're having here where you were actually okay with being wrong because you were accomplishing something else. Now, what was that something else you were accomplishing? The feeling that you were overcoming an obstacle, that you were doing something in spite Like, what was it? Can you try to,

Lauren 22:25

was just the commitment that I was going to just keep trying to dig a little bit deeper. So I, I, I walked away from our time together, just really thinking I have to shake off this identity. So I just can no longer hold onto I'm not a math person and smile when I say it, because that line does a disservice to me as a smart human woman of the world who is capable of a thousand things. I had the realization that when I say I'm not a math person, I'm taking away from who I am. It wasn't adding to me. It wasn't an addition or a plus sign into my, my Lauren-ness. Hear those math words?

Vanessa Vakharia 23:07

Ah, now she's making math jokes. Oh my God. Okay, yeah.

Lauren 23:11

was subtracting from what I bring to the table, which is a lot. two, I needed to prove to myself that this just wasn't a beautiful experience with someone who was amazing, that we spent a day together and I walked away feeling really good about the possibility of Letting go of the fear of being bad at math. So I needed to cement that in who I was in order to make this journey for our podcast authentic, one, but two, also to make it authentic for me as a person who's grappling through better understanding who I am, but two, to your very point, better understanding about how we talk to kids about all

Vanessa Vakharia 23:51

Wow. Yeah

Lauren 23:52

talk to kids about math. And then even further, how we talk to teachers about teaching math, how we talk to teachers about their own feelings about math.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:00

I want everyone listening to think about what Lauren said here. The sense of accomplishment, what kept her going despite the fact that she was getting the wrong answer mathematically in a subject, math, that she's already anxious about getting the wrong answer in, okay? So she kept going despite that. She wasn't always getting it wrong. You were getting some wins, right? So you were like, okay. But what kept you going is the goal, the measure of success was not getting the right answer. The measure of success had been defined by both of us as, "I am going to do this thing that feels hard, and I'm simply going to witness how I feel and keep going." Because that was the measure of success, every day that you did Duolingo, you could check that box regardless of the answer you got on the math that you were doing.

Lauren 24:50

That's exactly right. And I think, too, to, to sort of, um, connect to that, the more I did it in this low stakes environment, you don't care if I'm getting these math answers right. I actually wasn't, uh, deeply affected by whether or not I got it right. It was the fact that I was doing it in this low stakes environment where I kept having these at-bats and practices with math and these moments of feeling really good about getting an answer right or persevering through something that I actually didn't want to do. So we may in a moment get to the spot where I tell you that we got to the fractions section, and it was a struggle for me mentally, emotionally, every day to pick this thing up and to do that fractions lesson every day because it was hard for me. And those were the moments that I really transferred back to the feelings of inability and the feelings of, "I'm just not good at this. Why am I... Is this really a goal that I need to continue on? I'm at a hundred and some odd days. Can I just quit at this point?" So there was some real, like, back and forth and some tension just internally for me to dig down into why I'm doing this. Why am I sticking with Duolingo the way that I am? Why does it matter to me that I continue going? But it's because I needed to continue to practice on the thing that was hard. I needed to continue to get it wrong, and I needed most of all to get it right from time to time, a lot of times, in order to have all of the feelings, because that's how you learn. You gotta have all of the feelings.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:21

You have to have all of the feelings. I love that you have to have all of the feelings. You're almost like exercising. Like it's that window of tolerance, right? Being like, "Okay, I can go from being super stressed out, feeling anxious. I can then move through that window to the other side." Like it's not stagnant. There is movement. I'm c- did you, did you feel like you learned? Like do you feel like you know more about fractions now or do you feel like you just really

Lauren 26:50

Yes, and I, my, my proof point is hanging that crazy picture on the

Vanessa Vakharia 26:55

Yeah

Lauren 26:56

in our kitchen because I had just finished up that fractions block of learning, goodness, and have moved to rounding, which feels like a breeze and a dream compared to fractions. But I had just f- finished up that, that, that fraction section and, like, struggled through improper fractions and comparing fractions and finishing out the fraction. But all of that hard stuff, and my scores were horrible. I don't know if Du- Duolingo tracks what your score progression is, but my scores were terrible through that fraction section. But they got a little bit better every time, and I was able to take that practice and apply it to my kitchen wall confidently.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:37

Oh my God

Lauren 27:38

uncomfortable, or I didn't cringe, or I didn't think, "Oh my goodness, I'm gonna go in the living room and find something so that he can do this for me." I thought, "Wait, I actually have kind of honed in and developed the skills over the past couple of weeks with this daily two-minute practice that I think I can figure this out."

Vanessa Vakharia 27:55

This is so wild. Like, it's so wild for so many reasons, but I'm like, you put into practice so much of the stuff we say. Like, number one, doing math in a low-stakes way. Number two, let's note that Lauren did not start with fractions, right? She pulled out that app, and she was starting with stuff where she could get some wins, right? You could feel kinda good. By the time the fractions thing came around, so this just shows, I think for me, also the idea of scaffolding that we always talk about. Like, give your students the opportunity to get some wins. If it's you working on your own thing, don't start with the thing that stresses you out. Start with something like a rung below on the ladder, something that you feel like you can get a bit of a dopamine hit from, and then move to that. Then also, you didn't start with trying to hang that picture, right? Like, again, you were doing low-stakes math every day, these little things, then a real-life situation came up, and I'm sure your husband, I'm not sure, but I'm guessing he wasn't like, "Lauren, this is a test of what you've been prac-" Right? Did he say those things?

Lauren 28:51

He didn't. He

Vanessa Vakharia 28:52

No.

Lauren 28:53

that was great."

Vanessa Vakharia 28:55

Right? And, like, he probably wasn't like, "Why don't you do it? You've been practicing," right? Like, it's something, a- again, this was low stakes in a way. It was a low-stakes application. It was a word problem, which normally would be horrifying, a word problem that was a low-stakes word problem. It wasn't written out in a book for you to do, there's so many learning and teachable moments in your experience.

Does she encounter many teachers like her?

Vanessa Vakharia 29:16

I imagine up to this point in your journey every time you go to schools and you're dealing with teachers, does it come up that educators do not like math? Are you hearing this kind of language?

Lauren 29:29

Probably less so in the work I do today than it did when I was actually in public education. So a lot of the conversations I had with new teachers, with veteran teachers, um, we like math the way we like math, which is the way we learned it when we were young. Whether we understood it when we were young or not, we like it that way 'cause we know it best. So when we were thinking about expanding how we invite children to the table of math learning, was a really hard conversation 'cause lots of people just don't actually like math or are afraid of having to teach higher-level concepts. And those were really important conversations that I wish I could travel back in time and have

Vanessa Vakharia 30:05

Right

Lauren 30:06

all of this understanding now. And honestly, the thing that I did as a leader then was build community with my not-math people, right? Like, "You're not a math person. I got it. We're gonna sit here together and commiserate on that for a few minutes, and then we gotta figure out a pathway forward. Like, we can keep hating math, but we gotta still teach it to these kids and make them love it." But that's not the way, right?

Vanessa Vakharia 30:26

What would you do differently? 'Cause I think there are so many... One of the questions I get asked most from educators is, "How do I deal with the other teachers or my colleagues or my leaders or admin or, like, this person or that person who, like, talks shit about math all the time?" Like, you know what I mean? I hear from leaders all the time, "We have so many teachers with their own math anxiety." I'm curious if this work has, like, sort of, you know, changed the way you notice math anxiety in other teachers, and if you're noticing things now you wouldn't have before, and how you would respond to it differently if given the chance. I'm sure you will be given the chance.

Lauren 30:58

I would point back to something that you said to me that was pivotal in this entire experience, so my Duolingo experience, what I thought of every time I talked to somebody, um, after our time together as we were writing and thinking through scripting on the podcast. basically you, like, lifted the shame away from individual strategy I felt like as a young person and even a person today, up to that point and still sort of grappling with it now, that if I had to use my fingers, I was not good at math. If I had to draw it out, I was not good at math. If I had to do some kind of non-standard way of getting to the answer, just 'cause I got the answer right didn't mean that I did it with mastery or I was good at math. I did it the wrong way to get the right answer. And I think one of the pivotal moments for me was when you said, "But you got the right answer."

Vanessa Vakharia 31:43

Right. Yeah

Lauren 31:45

I did. Okay, let's move on. strategies are important, but strategies are an opportunity for someone to find out what works for them and how their sweet brain bridges piece together information, where we build those synapses, where we make those connections, and what we're able to push forward in with our learning. So I think one of the big, um, mysteries to reveal or shames to wipe away for all of the people, particularly teachers who struggle with teaching math or struggle with math anxiety, would be stop shaming yourself for your strategy and start seeking opportunities with your students to build their own individual strategies. We can not test every student to mastery on every strategy because that is not real.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:29

I'm really glad you brought this up because I feel like when somebody will say to me, and students and teachers will say this, they'll be like, "Yeah, I got the right answer, but I was doing like this thing," or, "I had to do this to figure it out." I'm always like, "That is, isn't that amazing? Like you were self-resourced. Like you ma- you didn't know how to do something, and then you figured out how to do it. What is a more powerful skill than that?"

Lauren 32:49

To top that off, it takes me back to a moment where I, I remember a teacher one time sweetly said, "But you're doing so much hard work to get to the answer when there's a lot easier way." And what that said to me was my way was too much. I needed to figure out how to make the shorter way work. And I understand what that teacher was saying. It's, it's smart, right? Like, why are you exhausting yourself to get to this answer when there's this thing over here that is easier? That thing did not make sense to me. I could not conceptualize how all of that went together. So all of this work was not necessarily the hard work for me. I wasn't doing hard-- all of this extra hard work. I was doing the work that let me get to a place where I understood what I was, what I was answering, how I was answering, how I was getting the answer. So I think that there's just a lot of value in, in continuing to lift up and having those conversations. And again, as an educational society, thinking deeply about teach and assess standards, um, of practice, right? Algorithms and the way that students answer questions and the way that students get to the answer.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:53

okay, it- while you're talking, I have to tell you where my mind is going. I'm thinking about getting organized. I know I talk about this on the podcast all the time. Obviously, I have a problem. I am in therapy, guys. I don't know what to say. But I, uh, one of my main panics is that I'm not doing things the most efficient way. Like, I'll be like, "Okay," like, I'm or- I guess I'm organized and I have a system, but I know there's a better way out there, and I feel like I'm failing constantly because I'm like, I bet you, like, people will be like, "Oh, why don't you just, like, automate it? So like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, AI does this thing, and then it'll add these things to your..." And I'm like, "I don't know. I don't know how to do that." And I, you know, and I've always felt like such a failure, and you just gave me an epiphany of how many people I've spoken to, who when I ask them how they organize their day, their day, they'll say something like, "Oh, pen, you know, pen and paper for me. Like, I still need to write on a physical planner." And none of those people feel shame around it. In fact, they're like, "Yeah, sure. I guess I could use an app. I guess I can automate it, but for me, what's always work is, worked is, like, getting my, my physical planner and writing my stuff on it, and I get the job done." So what is the problem? And I wish... I, I feel like this is, I'm gonna take this moment for myself, 'cause I've been all panicky f- for the past year about how disorganized I am. David is nodding vigorously. And I thank you. This is a reminder to me that just because something isn't the fastest, it doesn't mean it's not the way that works for us. And if you get the job done, what the fuck is the problem? You know what I mean? Like... And I get, by the way, this is not a nod to being like, "We don't need fluency in math." That is not what I'm saying. But,

Lauren 35:28

do.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:29

yes, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, though, there is a time and a place for the most efficient way, and there's a time and a place for however you get to the answer and understand it is fine, especially in the learning phase,

Lauren 35:42

Yes

Vanessa Vakharia 35:42

maybe later you'll learn something else, right? The, I think this goes back to all of the talk around being like, we want students to think and come up with their own ways before we teach them the algorithm. Like, you know what I mean? We're not saying don't use the algorithm. Like, I'm certainly not saying that. I'm a huge fan of many algorithms. Yeah, yeah, we're not Yeah, go for it, but also, like... okay, so anyway, so we're not getting into an algorithm talk. I'm so sorry. Thank you. I just needed to steal that moment for myself. Back to you. There's something else you wanted to say.

Lauren 36:08

It's just meaning-making, right? So teach the algorithm, but also teach the way for students to make meaning of that algorithm. So it can't be a standalone thing that I just apply and use. I actually do have to understand its

Vanessa Vakharia 36:19

Sure

Lauren 36:20

how it works, right? Like, space for all in this math world that we're living in. It, it can all happen.

What else can be "math"?

Lauren 36:28

one of the other really pivotal pieces that I think would be great for a district or teachers or a group of teachers or a team that's struggling with teaching math, we did that paper. We just wrote down together things that we think about for math, right? Or that, that represented math or math things. I can't even remember how you phrased

Vanessa Vakharia 36:46

would, yes, I think we were like, yeah, we were like, "Let's list some things that are math," like

Lauren 36:51

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 36:51

planting a garden, doing your times ta- Is that what you mean?

Lauren 36:54

yes, that thing. And what was interesting was you-- I went first, and I'm like, "Addition!" 'Cause I'm thinking math, math, math, But then you really opened up the opportunity for me to think beyond that, because I think the next thing that you said was maybe or trends, uh, just something

Vanessa Vakharia 37:11

Yeah, it was like spotting a trend. Yeah

Lauren 37:14

yep, for math thinking that it really helped my brain shift into thinking about, oh, planting a garden, making dinner, baking something, hanging a picture, moving furniture. So sometimes, um, poor math experience as a child turns into poor math experience as an educator because we can't shake out of poor math experience as a child. And we forget that math is a means to an end for most humans. So ninety-nine percent of the students that come into our classroom are not likely to go on to become mathematicians winning awards in the world and changing math theory. They're students who are gonna go in and have great jobs and careers, and they're gonna go to college, and they're gonna go in the military, and they need to really take these practical concepts or these high-level concepts and make them practical in their lives. So that moment also really helped me shift my thinking around, like, why are we teaching math? Why do we want students to be proficient with math? Is it so they can get the highest SAT score or the highest ACT score? Is it so that they can go take high-level math when they get into college, or they can, you know, any other math thing that you can put in there? Or is it because we want them to be able to balance their checkbook, hang a picture on their wall, measure the ingredients for the cake that they're baking, figure out how to mow their lawn so it's got those beautiful lines in it that everybody else in the neighborhood has, whatever it is that they wanna do, there are a thousand applications. An educator, as a leader, and as someone who has conversations, I can bring reading to life for every person in the room because I see its practical application in everything that we do. I don't need everybody to love classic literature. You don't have to pick up a book every day, but you do have to have an understanding of how words and sounds work together to make sense of this life. I did not believe that about math until I spent time with you and spent time with other people who are in a similar space as me, are thinking big thoughts like Deborah and Peter. And then I started to really think, like, I've missed it here. I have missed the boat. I have done more damage as not a math person than I could ever think because I stopped thinking about-- I never thought about, actually, math is a means to an end. It is

Vanessa Vakharia 39:41

Hmm

Lauren 39:41

means to an end. It is not just two plus two. It's if I have two bunnies and I've got two cats I have

Vanessa Vakharia 39:50

You...

Lauren 39:50

and now

Vanessa Vakharia 39:51

I

Lauren 39:51

out the math of how I feed them, right? So that was a terrible example, but just there's purpose in it. We need it to function in our everyday lives

Vanessa Vakharia 40:01

Well, it's so funny 'cause I just finished another interview where we were talking about how we actu- you know, so, so much of the discourse has been around like, "Math is so beautiful, it's so meaningful. Like, look at the, like, math in nature. Like, we need students to understand the richness and beauty of math." Cool. Like, I'm not saying no, but it's just like you just said about classical literature, like, I'm sorry, I'm sure Shakespeare was a great guy. I'm actually not sure, to be honest, about any man at that time or now or currently. Um, but I cannot stand reading Shakespeare. I cannot stand it. I've tried it. It's not that I don't understand it. I do not like it. I do not enjoy it. So now, that has not turned me off reading. I love reading. There are books that I read. Like, do you know what I mean? And I think it might be a bit similar here, where it's like there is a whole side of the beauty of reading, right? Beautiful literature and poetry and this and that and whatever. And cool, that is an inroad for some people. Some people develop a love for reading because they fall in love with, like, Jane Austen or whatever. I'm just listing, like, famous people that I've never read. You know? Like, fine. But so many of us learn how to read regardless of the fact... you know, I know lots of people who know how to read. David over here hasn't picked up a book in, like, two years. You know what I mean? Like, he, like, but he's, he's, he's an incredible reader and writer. He's not right now currently reading a book. Like, you know what I mean? My point being, there are different pathways to building an identity, a positive identity around math or reading. There are multiple pathways. One of them might be the joy and beauty in numbers or words. One of them might be the practical application and the means to an end. And I think we need to stop placing one on a pedestal above the other, right? 'Cause I think we are pedestalizing, like, this idea of the richness and the beauty and the deep understanding. It's like, that's cool, but also, you know what else de- deserves a spot on that ladder? Is being able to use that thing as a tool to get other things that you want, to live your life.

Lauren 42:02

Yes. It makes me think of somebody smarter than me somewhere on the internet wrote a thing sometime. I cannot credit this person. If you're out there, this has lived in my brain since the moment I read it. But

Vanessa Vakharia 42:14

W-what?

Lauren 42:15

That grizzly bear jaws and butterfly wings are both methods of survival in this world. There's more than one way to thrive

Vanessa Vakharia 42:22

W- pause. What? Hold on, I need to think about it. I need to think about it.

Lauren 42:27

We just think that a grizzly bear

Vanessa Vakharia 42:28

this

Lauren 42:29

going to survive. Think about it. Like, its jaws are powerful. It's keeping itself safe. It is strong, and it's mighty, and it's out there mastering this world. But you know who else is mastering this world? A butterfly, because its beautiful, delicate, little light baby wings can take it up really high away from whatever it is on the ground that's gonna eat it. They're both thriving. They're just built for different things

How changing her math story changed her entire life

Vanessa Vakharia 42:52

I could talk to you forever and literally ever. I feel like we honestly just got started, I just think this is so cool that you're sharing your journey with us, and you're still on it, and I kinda wanna talk about that a bit. Like, here we are, four months later, you literally could give a keynote about math. Like, you, you have been shouting out sneaky math. You've been shouting out math, math. You've been talking about different strategies. Like, it's so incredible to watch this transformation, and I'm so curious, like, what is next and how this has shaped how you think about not just math, but your capability for doing hard things. Like, do you have a next project you wanna work on? What are you thinking about next on your math journey? Are you finished? Like, what Are you now an advocate for math rehab? Are you starting a math rehab clinic? What is happening? Like, tell me what you're thinking.

Lauren 43:42

Yes to everything.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:44

I mean, a math rehab clinic and a Christmas tree farm? Sign me up

Lauren 43:49

not only would you be happy, but you would be overcoming as well, and I just think that those are two... It's a movie all wrapped up into itself. It's so beautiful. I- It's, like, uplifting. Um, so one of my big goals actually that I have written down, which is one of my methods for organizing who I am and how I'm going to tackle this life that I'm living, um, which as I get older is more like thumbs upping this life that I'm living because I'm trying to do it gently. But I, I am going to do a full year of this Duolingo math practice.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:22

What?

Lauren 44:22

That is my personal goal. My goal is to make it to the day that I met you. So I want full circle Vanessa math practice every day on Duolingo this full year, so up to, um, up to the date that, that I started.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:37

We're gonna find the da-

Lauren 44:38

is a goal for

Vanessa Vakharia 44:38

how... Okay, hold on. How are we getting Duolingo involved? Like, do we have an idea? They need to be in on this. They need to be in on this. Like, people could be following your journey. Okay, I am going to reach out to them. I'm gonna reach out to them

Lauren 44:51

you

Vanessa Vakharia 44:51

after this interview. I'm reaching out to them this week. Okay, guys, I'm saying this out loud. Okay, sorry, Lauren, back to you, but, like, this is just too much. This is so exciting. Okay, go on

Lauren 45:00

It's just been a really pivotal, so many I know I keep saying things are pivotal, but honestly, this is just a really big shift for me as a human being because I have held so tightly to that identity of just being someone who doesn't care, honestly, about math. Um, I've lived my 40-some odd years and, like, it's cool. I don't need, I don't need to change this. And I don't know necessarily that I needed to shift this perspective, but it has been I can't imagine, I can't imagine having not done this over the past couple of months and it's really opened up how I think about how we do what we do as educators and curriculum creators and people who talk about learning in this world.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:39

Tell me more about that, that statement. Like, how has it shifted how you think about educators and what we do?

Lauren 45:46

Two things are happening in my life right now. I'm at the, on the tail end of writing and finishing my dissertation work, which is all about how teachers experience collaborative leadership during curriculum change. So how important is it that as stakeholders in an educational community, that we all come to the table and arrive at this decision together and then implement forward? So that has lifted up a lot of learning for me around just the value, of the foundational element of trust when we're in the room together And I think as I continue to have conversations with people and be curious about their experiences as leaders and learners and teachers in math, that sometimes, it points back to this lack of trust. So whether it is as a student trusting myself to persevere in the face of this hard thing and keep trying and not quit, I don't trust myself to do that. Do I trust this teacher to handle me gently when I do get it wrong or I don't understand and ask the question? I don't think I trust that as a student. As an educator, do I trust this curriculum company to come in and show me a method that's actually going to be effective for most of my students that I can actually do and deploy? I maybe don't trust that 'cause I've had a lot of experiences otherwise in the ba- in the, in, in the rest of my life. As an educator, do I trust my leadership team to support me in failing forward on rolling out and teaching this thing that's brand new and uncomfortable? So as an administrator, do I trust that my school board, state government, federal government isn't gonna change the goal? Like, isn't gonna shift the race end midway through the process. So there's an erosion of trust all the way down from the top to the bottom of the student level, and as a person who is wrapped up in this curriculum world and then also wrapped up in this world with teachers and leaders and students, my wonder is: How do we build that? How do we create classrooms where students trust themselves and their teachers to exist in this environment that lets me grow as a learner still mess it up a whole bunch? How do we create systems of educators and districts and teachers where I'm actually really uncomfortable teaching this thing, but I'm surrounded by people and by a system of curriculum that's gonna support me in learning and doing? And also giving people what you gave me, which is the removal of shame, not getting it, being wrong, only getting it right sometimes, needing multiple at-bats

Vanessa Vakharia 48:20

I think this really does all connect because the idea of trust, the way you've talked about how it's tiered at all levels, I think really it does tie in in a way that I think is really important, and it's really subtle, but it's really poignant, right? So I think part of it is we talk about blind faith a lot, and it's a bit unfair, right? We expect us to all have blind faith. The truth is, though, faith and trust comes from evidence, right? It comes from evidence that, that there is a reason to trust. We don't just blindly trust people. I'm sorry, but we don't, right? Like, and this is why we talk about having trust issues. Somebody who's been burned before is going to be more reticent to trust somebody moving forward. So I think the experience that you've kind of given yourself and walked yourself through, I think what's happening is, and you can tell me if I'm wrong, you are building trust in yourself, right? Trust in yourself to show up every day, trust in yourself that you can grow and change. You're actually witnessing that. We just saw that in the evidence of the hanging picture story. Something happened, and you were like, "Oh, it does actually matter." Same with students, right? When we just tell them to trust, "Oh, you've had years and years of bad math experiences. Don't worry. This is gonna be different, and you, and you'll be able to learn," they've been burned before. So we have to give them these experiences. The removal of shame, yes. Experiences like Duolingo or low-stakes math where they can win for once, yes. And that is how the trust that has eroded will begin to be rebuilt, and this has to happen at every single tier. This has to happen with leaders and teachers. Give those teachers that We're talking about math, so I'm gonna stick with math, but y- leaders, you have a bunch of teachers that you are leading who have math trauma, who have anxiety around math, who are now being asked to go into the math classroom and be evaluated through test scores on their ability to teach. What are you gonna do? How are you gonna get them to build the trust in themselves to take on the new curriculum that you would like them to take? They don't have tru- They don't That's why they're doing it the old way. They don't believe that they can change 'cause it hasn't been proven to them, and they don't trust that this curriculum's gonna be any different. So what are you, what are you going to do, and what math experiences are you going to give them that How are you gonna remove the shame around them trying something new? I, like, I do think this all really ties. Like, I know we've gone in a bit, in a different direction, but this is your world, and this is what you do, and I think it's so important for us to hear that that trust at all levels has to exist through evidence. So whatever role you're in, how are you going to provide evidence for the person that you are teaching that they can build a new identity around math?

Lauren 50:49

I think that's really, really beautiful, and I also think the work that you're doing. So one of the other things I would recommend to people who are trying to figure out how to support their systems in doing this work is doing a book study, right? I know everybody kind of cringes at a book study or figure out how to put Math Therapy in your teacher's hands. Let them explore it. Let them look at it. As a leader, find your favorite chapter and, and focus in on that space and share it out, right? Like, the very first thing I would do would be making that list of let's talk about math things, and working through that process. Just again, it was a low-stakes moment that you gave me to ease into thinking about my own experience differently after I had sort of sorted out all of the rest of the mess. So I do think actually looking at people who have done great research and who are sharing great experiences and who have just proven track records of having really good conversations around this thing that is very real, and then pushing forward through it. We also have to, as a community, which I had to do as a human, decide that we are going to commit to doing the hard thing. Womp, womp. Right? I don't like doing hard things at this age that I'm at. It's just not something that I really seek out as much as I should. I am committing to doing this hard thing, right? I can learn more. I can grow more. I can think more. I can see it differently. I can start having conversations with people around why they're feeling the way that they're feeling and point them to the experts and to the great resources and to the incredible humans that I know that can help them shift that lens, right? It's interesting 'cause I didn't actually want to change. We established that. But I was compelled to change when people who are and thoughtful And have incredible experiences started pointing it out to me that this was a worthy change. This was a change that was not just going to be a thing, but it was gonna actually impact how I thought about all of the things that I care about or how I, um, functioned in my day-to-day life.

Vanessa Vakharia 52:58

Well, I just think that is the perfect tie-in to the idea of trust, to be honest, I, I think there's a few things here, and I think it's so important that we drive this home, that listening, we would think, "But who wouldn't want to change? Who wouldn't want to, uh, suddenly absorb an identity where they can do this thing they've thought they c- they haven't been able to do? Who wouldn't want to?" And you guys have to remember, there is so much human psychology around this, right? Around the idea, way back in the day when we evolved, the idea of our tribal nature of wanting to be in community. And one of the main reasons people do not want to undergo an identity change when they're s- clinged so tightly to it is our ego, right? It is what defines us, are the things we feel good at, the things we like, the things we don't like. So it's not a matter of, quote-unquote, "proving something wrong." I think this is a conversation Lauren's bringing up that it would be really great to have with the next time somebody, you know, expresses that they're not a math person. You know, my favorite first question is: "Interesting. Did you ever have a negative experience with math?" letting them talk it out with you. And I think I'm now gonna add a new question that I'm gonna play around with, which might be something like I don't know. I'm gonna workshop it, but maybe my next question, depending where the conversation would go, goes, would be, what if you could suddenly, like, feel good about math? Would you want that? You know what I mean? Like, I think there would be... It would be... Right? It would be cool to do a question where you're kinda asking the person before you launch into helping them. It's like, it's like they say about, like, you know, like alcoholics almost, right? Like, it's like you can't help someone unless they wanna help themselves. And it's like, thinking about you, there was some deeper work going on there, but there was a curiosity. You already had a curiosity. What if we have a student or an educator that's just like, "Nope, math was never for me, never is gonna be for me"? My first question might be like, "Tell me, like, have you had a bad experience with math?" I might wanna hear all that. And then I might wanna be like, "Would you... Like, if, if I could wave a, a magic wand, if I could snap my fingers, if I was... You know, if there was a genie in a bottle that could grant you a wish, and suddenly you could, like, understand math and be good at it, would you want that?" And if they said no, I'd be so excited to understand why, and to get them talking about why, because th- you're not the first person to say this to me. In my interview with Charizma, which we'll link in the show notes, who I did math therapy with in Bali, she said the same thing. She expressed, like, "I don't know who I'd be if I didn't like math," and it unlocked the most amazing conversation. Like, she, I don't think she knew she had that thought, just like I don't think you, like, knew you had that thought until it came out. And once it's out, it's like cleaning your closet. Like, once the clothes are all on the floor, we can start figuring out what needs to be discarded and what to put away. Okay, sorry, I went on a whole long rant. Um, I just think it's such a valuable takeaway because I certainly never considered that the person I was trying to help might literally not want the help because they're protecting themselves, right? Like, they're protecting an identity. I ne- I never thought about that, and I think you've really illuminated that for us, so thank you so much.

Lauren 56:01

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 56:02

Well, okay, so I never let you finish. I wanna wrap up by letting you finish what's next for you. You said you were gonna do a year of Duolingo. We're gonna get Duolingo on board. Stay tuned for that. What else are you thinking? Is this, has this sparked anything new? Like, tell me more

Lauren 56:15

Yeah, I am just trying to figure out how to make math more alive in my world and in the work that I do. So don't know that I'm ever going to be able to enter into a space and be a math curriculum expert, right? So I, I do have a depth of knowledge on literacy or ELA curriculums, and that's something that I can walk into and easily have conversations about. But what I can start really thinking about, like I said earlier, um, or alluded to earlier, is just how we talk to people about literacy, how we talk to people about math, and how that lives in their worlds, in their classrooms, and in their districts. So I do think that those are conversations that I can start trying to be a little bit more active in. Also, I'm just trying to find more opportunities to let math live in my everyday world. So that was a pivotal moment yesterday with hanging that crazy picture in this

Vanessa Vakharia 57:05

I love it

Lauren 57:07

So just trying to be-- And one of it-- part of it too is just sort of releasing that I'm not a math person anxiety, embracing that being a mather, being a learner, being someone who's willing to, to try and do, but pointing to those moments in my life where I do a math thing successfully or unsuccessfully in the natural world and being thrilled about it. I was thrilled about doing fractions yesterday. I was thrilled about calculating the tip a couple of weeks ago. I was thrilled

Vanessa Vakharia 57:33

Oh my God

Lauren 57:34

there are just a couple, a handful of things that I've done that I thought, man, I, six months ago, would not even have attempted, and here I am.

Vanessa Vakharia 57:42

I, I am blown away because I'm like, truly what I'm thinking is I love math therapizing everyone. I want everyone to build a better relationship with math. I feel there's something very special about the person you are who does the work you do, where you are dealing with so many teachers who likely have their own math trauma, because we know that a very large, proportion of elementary teachers have their own trauma around math. You are like this beacon of light amongst this group of people, and I always say we might not all be teachers of math, but we're all teachers of math attitude. So even if you guys aren't talking about math, right?

Lauren 58:17

That's good. That's good

Vanessa Vakharia 58:20

thank you. But you are, uh, you are with the people, right? The people who need, who need to hear this, who need... So I feel like you truly are doing the people's work, and I'm so curious what your reaction is going to be or has been if this has happened next time you're among a group of educators and they say something like, "Oh yeah, well, I'm glad we're talking about reading. This is why I never, you know, I'm so glad I don't teach maths. I'm not a math person." Or like, what, what do you think you'll do?

Lauren 58:48

I'm gonna steal what you exactly just said, and I'm gonna credit you with it, that, you know, we might not all be teachers of math, but we're all teachers of math attitudes, because I think it's beautiful. What a better way to communicate that it may not be the subject that I'm singly focused on, but I sure am teaching children how to feel about it or how to think about it or how to internalize their own self-worth around it, right? So that's exactly what I'm going to say back to them and, and, and, and join your math committee next time. Figure out how to be a part of that curriculum selection the next time you're in the room and you have that opportunity or have a conversation about it. But I think that's my big light bulb moment in this conversation. Well, I've had so many in this conversation that we've had, but I really genuinely believe that that's a phrase that carries so much weight and impact. And on top of that, while you were talking, it popped in my brain that we have this saying in education that basically, um, what's a good kind of reteach strategy for one student is likely a good reteach strategy for every student in the room. So, you know, when we, when we dig in or we, um, intervene or we teach something a little bit deeper, it's probably good for everybody to have an at bat with it too because it just sharpens our skills and gives us the opportunity to expand our thinking. And it made me think one of the best things any district can do when they're thinking about how they teach math is host a math therapy session. And I mean that genuinely and tru-truly, not just from a, like, we're buddies and I wanna promote everything you do always and forever and want everyone to use you. But I actually just in piecing all of this together, what a great entry point for everyone, math haters, math lovers, mathers in the middle. What a great entry point for everyone to walk in the room together and be able to values align on what matters in what we're doing every day, and digging into how we feel and think and act about math so that we can start thinking about how we're inviting students to internalize that themselves. And I think I'm gonna take back everything that I said before about what I would tell people to do and how I would do my own work if I were to go back in time as an administrator, and I'd still do that stuff. But the first thing I would do is engage in a math therapy-- in some math therapy work, right? Like really digging into the, to the book, really thinking about the strategies and practices that you did with me that weren't a heavy-- They-- I hope they weren't a heavy lift for you. But they were great, a great heavy lift for me. It was thinking and really doing what teachers love to do, which is to get better at what they're doing so that they're better serving the students that are in the classroom. And math therapy is the entry point. I genuinely believe it.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:01:30

Well, like, should I even say anything else? Like, I mean, you just, you just Like, that was You're, you're unbelievable at what you do. You're now also my official mascot.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 1:01:39

Lauren, I have loved this so much. I could talk to you for hours. to ask the two final questions that I ask everyone. You have 30 seconds to answer. And before I do, I wanna tell you guys, I think Lauren and I, if you're listening and something here resonated with you, and you were like, "Oh my God, that's me. I think I might not wanna let go of my identity of not being a math person," can you text us?

Lauren 1:02:03

Yes

Vanessa Vakharia 1:02:03

Hit the link in your show notes. I wanna know. I wanna, I wanna know if you, like, are like, "Yep, that might be me," and I want to know why. Like,

Lauren 1:02:11

Yes, me too

Vanessa Vakharia 1:02:11

and also, right? We wanna know, I also just love what you just said there about, like, this work around math therapy is thinking work, right? It's thinking and reflecting. We want our students to think and reflect in math. Start by having them think and reflect about their feelings around math. Okay, are you ready? Two

Lauren 1:02:27

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:02:28

30 seconds to answer.

Lauren 1:02:29

Okay

Vanessa Vakharia 1:02:30

one, someone's listening to this, they're like, "Oh my God, I- Lauren, she's so inspiring. She's incredible. Oh my God, but the thing is, I, sin- I, since as long as I can remember, I have known I'm not a math person. This does not apply to me." What would you say?

Lauren 1:02:43

Uh, you're a person person first. So we're not math people, we're not reading people. I'm stealing it from Deborah. It really made an impact on me. But we're learners, so I invite you to come be a learner with me, and let's learn not math, not reading

Vanessa Vakharia 1:02:59

l- love that. Is that what she says? We're learners and that's it,

Lauren 1:03:03

No, I think she says something more beautiful than that that makes a lot more sense. But basically her point is like mathers, writers, readers, they're people who are out there doing a thing. We're learners. We're out here doing a thing. Let's just learn together. Remove the boundary of it's math

Vanessa Vakharia 1:03:19

I really like

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 1:03:20

that. Okay, and finally, if you could wave a magic wand and change one thing about the way math is taught in school right now, what would it be?

Lauren 1:03:26

Oh my goodness. I would, um, eliminate fully and completely time testing. You know why. We talked about this deeply, but it does not serve the purpose that we want it to serve. And it does a tremendous load of damage on students that's life lifelong, right? Like poster child here. So no more time tests. It would help a lot of hearts

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 1:03:49

You're so great. I wanna move to your Christmas tree farm and just have our own show and talk about this all the time. We could have our own guests, and we could do Math Therapy together because I feel like now you're, like, official, right? Like, you could be doing the work. We could be doing it together.

Lauren 1:04:04

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 1:04:04

cop, bad cop. You know what I mean? But we're both the good cop

Lauren 1:04:07

I was gonna say, I think that doesn't work 'cause we're both the good cop.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:04:12

Lauren, you were so-- Okay, first of all, pause before I wrap up. Is there anything you wanted to say that you didn't get the chance to say?

Lauren 1:04:17

No. I just wanted to really point to how incredible I don't think that I articulated well just what a big thing your time in my life that day has been over the course of the past couple of months in just reshaping how I really internalize math for myself and for the people in my world. So ultimately, if I could say the one thing that I wanna say, it's just really, like, thanks. Thank you for conceptualizing this thing, doing this work, not being afraid of people who are really resistant in general to math and likely have terrible attitudes about it. That's hard work to do. So you have changed this human being in a really, really big way

Vanessa Vakharia 1:05:01

you know, it means so much to me, 'cause sometimes I feel like, oh my God, we spent, like, an hour and a half- well, we spent the day together, but,

Lauren 1:05:08

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:05:08

one time together,

Lauren 1:05:09

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 1:05:10

I know a lot of people will say, like, you know, "There's no such thing as one and done," and, "How effective is it?" And I'm like, I always feel like, of course, it would be amazing if I could meet with you every single week. Like, sure. But I think I want everyone listening to This isn't to, like, just boost myself here. Like, I'm just saying what you said, so you've said it for me. But it's like, don't underestimate the impact you can have in one interaction. You can turn a student off of math in one interaction. You can say something that turns them off of math, and you can say something that really boosts their confidence. So fine, we all wish we had more time. I wish I could move to Lauren's Christmas tree farm and hang out and do math therapy with her every day. But you still are making an impact just in one interaction, so that actually means a lot. Okay. this is our own Christmas rom-com.

Lauren 1:05:51

I think we're best friends forever.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:05:52

Oh, yeah. Put some Christmas music in this part.

Lauren 1:05:55

Oh, yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 1:05:56

ho, ho. Okay. Was that not the best non-Love Island reunion literally ever? I mean, talk about a Hallmark rom-com ending. And yes, I know I'm mixing up Hollywood tropes and metaphors, but what I'm really trying to say is I'm so grateful to Lauren for sharing her story with us, and I really do want to move to her Christmas tree farm. If you or anyone you know are struggling with math trauma, I hope this two-part series gave you hope that it's never too late to build a happier, healthier relationship with math. I always say that confidence isn't just positive thinking, it's remembered evidence, and I hope this series serves as evidence that it can happen for anyone, including you. Also, guys, I'm not even joking, I've emailed three people at Duolingo and DM'd two of them on LinkedIn, and I'm serious about getting this sponsorship, so if you know anyone who knows anyone who works there, text me. Hit the Text Us link in your show notes and spill the tea. Let's make this happen. #Manifesting #seeyounextweek