Courtney Flessner

Courtney Flessner 0:03

Schools have to be spaces, where teachers are like, "I have things to learn. It's okay that I have things to learn. I am getting better. I am growing. I am reaching my students. I have support in this process." As school and district leaders, we have to ask very hard questions of what are we doing to create spaces for them to take risks and do things that they've never done before There are going to be times that they fail in their classroom, that has to be okay because it has to be okay for the students, too. Like, our teachers are just as important. If we're not giving them what they need, the students are not going to get what they need, period. And it's not up to teachers to go find out that information on their own. We have to give it to them in our schools

Speaker 0:52

Okay, guys, welcome back to another episode of Math Therapy. Today, we are going to dissect two of the most controversial letters in education, PD. That's right. Love it or hate it, professional development is a bit of a mixed bag, but lucky for you, I have an expert in the field who will show you how PD can be effective and why we need to support growth for teachers just as much as our students. Courtney Flessner has spent almost 20 years working in public, private, and public charter schools as a classroom teacher, instructional coach, and administrator, and she is now the director of Keep Indiana Learning. Her work is devoted to understanding why students aren't thriving in math class and what teachers need to do to actually change that. What I love most about Courtney is that she's not afraid to tell it like it is, and she has the experience to back it up. Today, Courtney shares her belief that when it comes to math education, we need to stop simply patching the potholes. We gotta start fixing the whole damn road. Let's be real, guys. We all know that road, the one we take to go to work or school or visit our best friend every week, that road with a giant pothole that keeps getting fixed but keeps coming back, and every time you drive the road, you're like, "Wait, do I have to dodge a gaping hole today? Yes or no?" Because you can temporarily fill in a crack, but if you don't address what caused it, that crack is probably going to come right back. And this is not only true for that road, and it's not just true for the students who are struggling with math. It is also true for the teachers who feel anxious, behind, or completely ill-equipped to teach. If you don't address what caused the crack, no amount of patching is going to prevent it from coming back. Courtney and I get into the extremely loaded question of whether a teacher's math anxiety can be transmitted to their students, why teachers teach math the way they were taught math, and what leaders need to do to actually create schools where teachers feel safe enough to admit what they don't know, learn alongside one another, and rebuild their own relationships with math. And I know you're probably already thinking of that teacher who doesn't understand why they should bother to teach math differently than they have the past 20 years, or that leader who feels like they have no capacity to do anything impactful and needs a reminder that they have the power. So please, if you're thinking of these people, send them this episode right now so they can listen along with you. Seriously, a podcast study is, like, quicker and easier than a book study, so start one right now in your staff room group chat with this episode. But before we get into all that, I need to also say that our brief little discussion of what is in each of our Swig mugs is not sponsored content. I wish it was, but it's not. I'm just obsessed with the Swig mug that I was gifted when I did PD, ah, in Utah last month. And for the record, I would gladly do some sponsored content because I am now obsessed with dirty sodas, so someone please make that happen. Thank you. Okay, onto my interview with Courtney.

Don't just fill the potholes, fix them

Vanessa Vakharia 3:46

Okay, before we begin our interview, I wanted to show you what I brought specifically for you, which is a Swig mug, as you can see, that was delivered to me in Utah when I did PD for them. What do you think

Courtney Flessner 3:59

I love it. I love it. I have to get one of those. I've specifically brought for you a swig styrofoam with, with a fresh drink in it

Vanessa Vakharia 4:08

Oh my God, what's in it?

Courtney Flessner 4:09

it is a Dr. Pepper Zero with vanilla cream

Vanessa Vakharia 4:13

Oh my God. I'm actually drinking electrolytes and creatine out of my Swig mug.

Courtney Flessner 4:19

That is in my non-Swig mug

Vanessa Vakharia 4:24

why are we starting this way? Well, because you and I have spent so much time talking about our love for reality television, and not only that, I would say we've had some voice note exchanges where we parallel reality television with what's going on in education.

Courtney Flessner 4:37

Yes

Vanessa Vakharia 4:38

I actually can't remember any of those talks, but I know we've d- do you remember any of them?

Courtney Flessner 4:42

That's really funny. No, but I know we have. I think that certain type of person can parallel, like, most anything to education.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:51

I think that's it.

Courtney Flessner 4:53

And that's, like, how I view everything. Like, I, I've recently been working on a pothole metaphor, and it makes a lot of sense to me. But then when I start thinking about, even to myself, I have a little giggle where I'm like, "A pothole? Seriously, Courtney?"

Vanessa Vakharia 5:06

Do you wanna share that or is it still being workshopped?

Courtney Flessner 5:09

well, it's still being workshopped, but I, I don't mind sharing it. I was thinking about how, why the teaching of math is such a struggle and why kids struggle and why teachers struggle in teaching it. And I started thinking about how, like, a pothole starts as just a crack. You know? Something in the cement that is, you know, that's, that's, that's not working, that, that's working against the cement. It's not doing what the cement's supposed, that it wants it to do. And as things seep into it, whether it's rain or s- snow or melted snow or salt from the snow or whatever it may be, as they seep into it, you know, it, the crack gets bigger and bigger and bigger until it's a pothole. And when you, w- you know, when the people call and they complain about the pothole, sometimes you'll go, and there's, like, a patch over the pothole. before long, the back because people are driving over it, and the patch didn't work. And so in order to fix the pothole, you have to completely rip up the, the high- the, the highway or the road or whatever it is, and you have to rebuild the road. so I've been thinking, I know, so I've been thinking a lot about that with,

Vanessa Vakharia 6:20

This is amazing

Courtney Flessner 6:20

I know, with teachers and students and how, like, we can't patch things for people. We can't say, "Just teach it this way" or, "Use this curriculum and it'll solve all your problems," or, "Teach the kids how to solve the problem this way. It will fix everything." Because it doesn't fix everything. It might fix something right in the moment, but it's not taking care of the things that have been seeping into it, whether it's the negative experiences they've had, their lack of understanding of mathematics, like, whatever it may be, what's been seeping into the crack to make the hole bigger is, it, you can't patch that up. You have to rebuild that completely. So

Vanessa Vakharia 6:54

I don't know what needs to be workshopped. This feels like a perfect metaphor, and it really, honestly, you've already sparked so many... I'm already throwing out all the questions I was gonna ask you because, like, th- it's so interesting that you're coming up with this metaphor because you're the director of Keep Indy- Indiana Learning, right?

Courtney Flessner 7:12

Mhm,

Vanessa Vakharia 7:13

A key part of your job is providing professional development widescale to educators so that we can, for real, I guess, fix the pothole, right? Like, so that we can for real get underneath why that pothole keeps, keeps appearing. And so my question is, and, and you know, it's funny because I've always, like, wondered. Like, I don't even know how you do your job. It sounds insane. I don't know how you plan, like, what needs to be happening, but I would love to actually get under, under the skin of this metaphor. Now I'm g- this is gonna be, like, all I talk about now. I'm like, but seriously, I'd love to get under the skin of it to, to figure out, let's take it back. What do you mean by patching? What are we patching, and what would it look like to rebuild? Like, what are you seeing that we're doing that is actually a patch, and w- let's get into what it could look like to rebuild that road.

Courtney Flessner 8:10

Sure. So I think that, I think that patches come at, like, so many levels. And so when I think about sort of my own teaching experience and how I sort of evolved in my teaching of math, you know, early in my career, I would have stood in front of kids. I would have said, "This is how you solve the problem. Copy me, do it my way, and then practice all the problems doing it the way that I just showed you." And then a- as they would be working on their own, and I'd be moving around the room, if they weren't understanding it, my patch was to restate the way I had already told them to do it. You know? Or in some instances, my patch might have been to take their pen or pencil out of their hand and write it for them to show them, like, "Look at how easy this is." But to rebuild, you have to teach them, what do I do when I encounter something that I don't understand? Because I can't just wait for my teacher to come over and take my pencil for me and write it down for me, or to remind me of what, you know, the instructions are that I'm supposed to follow. Like, what do I do when I encounter a struggle? And so t- we have to rebuild that idea of there's not somebody coming to help you. Somebody will be there to help you eventually, right? Like, definitely for sure. We're not, like, ignoring the kids that are struggling. But ja. That moment, what do I do? How do I tackle this problem? How do I, you know, how do I enter in in a way that makes sense for me so I can work to make sense of the problem, as opposed to, you know, the patch, which is would be, I'm gonna raise my hand and wait for my teacher to come and tell me what to do. So, like, that would be one example.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:51

This is a weird question to ask in a way, but

How can PD effectively help teachers?

Vanessa Vakharia 9:54

I always think about professional development and how Like, you're talking about patches for the kids now, right? Which makes sense, but it's interesting what you said. You were like, rebuilding would actually be teaching them a more general skill," which would be what you do when struggle is abound. Like, what do you do then? Whereas the specific skill might be still a useful skill, but it's content-specific. So for example, let's say, okay, fine, you're not taking the pencil out of their hand. You're not like, "I do, you do, we do," whatever. You're actually, you know, showing them how to, like conceptually understand a fraction, let's say. Like, that's really, really cool, but that to me still feels very, very specific as opposed to a larger skill, which would be what do you do when you don't know what to do? Am I, like, onto something or not really?

Courtney Flessner 10:40

No, I think you are. I think that, so I think that's where, like, professional development meets teaching, is that we have to give teachers those experiences so that they know what to do. So if, you know, if, to, to use your fraction example, you know, I can be like, "Here's the ch- here's the rectangle. It's split into three, you know, equal parts, and you're supposed to shade one-third. Like, just shade this one-third." Like you know, and kids might be sitting there going, "What are you talking about? What is this one-third that you are saying? Why are you calling it one-third?" Like, they, they haven't quite understood that piece of the puzzle. So our professional development, has to be centered around what do we do for the child that's stuck in that moment? Do we pull up a manipulative? Do we back it up to, re- you know, understanding, just dividing whole numbers and what that look, and now we're dividing it, a, a, a whole number, you know, a smaller number by a larger number. Is it about adding context to it? If I have a sandwich and I split it into three parts, like, one part of that is one-third. Like, we kind of go through, like, the five representations of mathematics to kind of meet them where they are and help them understand, what do I do in this moment? And so we have to give teachers those experiences so that they have them, so that they in turn know when they can use them, rather than saying, "Just shade this part. Just, one part is one-third."

How do teachers really feel about math?

Vanessa Vakharia 12:05

how often are you going in, you know, a district saying something like, "You know, our goals are numeracy. We have, you know, test scores," or, you know, "Our, our teachers need to understand more conceptually how to teach math." And you go in there, and what you see are that teacher dispositions toward math are actually not as positive as you hoped. Is that something that frequently happens, where you're like, "Oh my God, they're asking me to come in for content, but what's happening is these teachers, like, are scared of math"?

Courtney Flessner 12:32

Yeah, yeah. It happens often, like really often. Or the other thing that happens, and this is not, this is not, like, a shame. Like, I'm not This is not a shaming moment. sometimes what happens is they're very confident, and then as soon as we start, they realize, "I don't know anyth- I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know that. I don't know that math. That's not how I teach math." And so some- they'll either s- maintain their confidence and be like, "You don't know what you're talking about," or they'll be like, "Okay, I..." Then their confidence dips, and they're like, "I don't know anything about this. Why do you How, how can you expect me to do this?" So you definitely see both, particularly at the elementary level.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:12

Well, you know, I think you're one of the few people I know that's out there kind of really, really working hard on a wide level around teacher disposition, because I know you are doing a lot of content-level work. But I know that that's something you and I really connect on, is that you believe that if, you know, a teacher is carrying anxiety or math trauma, that we, we can't just ignore it and keep pushing content. So I'm curious, it's really interesting what you say there. Like, what do you do when you encounter that type of situation? So you're in a room, you're doing PD, and you're noticing that there are educators who-- Because I would say if they feel really, really confident, and then you say something they don't understand, and they start getting defensive, that to me is, like, an interesting flag of almost doubling down because you don't want to not know because you've had a bad experience with not knowing. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, I, I-- To me, I'm like, "Oh, there's probably some math anxiety going on there." yeah, what do you do when you're kind of, like, called in to talk about, like, content or fractions or number sense, and you realize that there's actually, like, a disposition flag?

Courtney Flessner 14:12

So, you know, depending on, like, at what level I'm working with teachers, I- a lot of times I begin by just being like, "Here's who I am." and part of who I am is someone that, like I took three years of math in high school. I took the easiest math I could take in college. Like, I did not like math at all. I think I, I was even thinking about this this morning, probably in anticipation of our conversation, in that I don't know what I was like as an early math teacher. I, I know that I didn't Like, I was sitting at my overhead projector. So this, the- I'm, I'm starting my 30th year of, of education. So I was sitting at my overhead projector, like, kids were talking through problems, and I remember them being like, you know, "9 plus 6 is 15." And I was, like, checking on my fingers. Are they, were they right? Is 9 plus 6 actually 15? 'Cause I didn't know for sure. And, like, that is where I started. And I, I- I re- I really, I really had no idea what I, what I was doing. and I realized early on, like, I have some work to do because I can't, I cannot teach my students the same way I was taught because i- it's not wor- it, it's not working for me. It, it, it didn't work for me throughout high school. It, you know, it's not working for me right now in this moment. So I tried to do, like, as much PD as I could. and then I, I moved to New York. I went to grad school. I, I ended up getting a job where I, I only had to teach social studies and, English, and that was, like, the best thing ever. I didn't have to deal with math for three years. and W- when I, when I ended up in Wisconsin where Ryan, my husband Ryan, was getting his PhD and so much math work started at Wisconsin, I would come home and, like, have questions or, like, wonderings or, like, reactions to this new math curriculum that I was using. He was like, "You should try da, da, da, da, da," or, "You should do this." My first reaction was, was exactly what teachers do. I, I looked at him, and I tell this story a lot, and I think he's comfortable with it, but I hope so 'cause I tell it a lot. But I looked at him and I was like, "You know what? Nobody likes you." I was like, "Nobody likes you. Nobody likes the guy who comes in and tells the teachers what they should be doing." I'm like, "You're so disconnected from classrooms. You, you don't even know what we have to deal with on a daily basis." Those were the exact words coming out of my mouth. And he took it. But he would, but he was like, "Why don't you just try it?" Like, "Why don't you just try what I'm

Vanessa Vakharia 16:44

What did he want you to try? What did he want you to try though?

Courtney Flessner 16:47

It, it was things like, "Ask a question, Courtney. Like, rather than tell the kids how to solve the problems, why don't you ask them what they're thinking about when you give them the problem before you tell them how to solve it?"

Vanessa Vakharia 16:58

Pause also because I think we now need to know, sorry, but he's been roped in. Ryan won't mind. It's fine. What was he doing his PhD in? Education stuff?

Courtney Flessner 17:06

Y- yeah, yeah, yeah. His,

Vanessa Vakharia 17:08

Okay

Courtney Flessner 17:08

was in curriculum instruction from the University of

Vanessa Vakharia 17:11

Oh. Okay, so he's doing his PhD in that. I see, and he's telling you this stuff, and you're like, "I don't have time to ask a question. Like, we need to get through curriculum. We just need to tell them what the fuck's going on." Okay, love it. Yep

Courtney Flessner 17:24

And, I, but I would go back to school, and I would, like, it. You know, I would try to ask the question. Like, I wonder what they are thinking about,

Vanessa Vakharia 17:34

Right

Courtney Flessner 17:35

And you know what, Vanessa? They were not thinking about anything that I was telling them about. They were not thinking about that. And that, those were

Vanessa Vakharia 17:43

What were they thinking about?

Courtney Flessner 17:44

I, I don't even know. So let's say it was, like, you know, mul- multiplying a two-digit number by a two-digit number, and I was teaching them, like, the traditional US algorithm, you know? And I would be like, "First you do this, then you do this, then you do this." Kids would be like, "Well, I was thinking..." Let's say it's 25 times 42. "Well, I, I was thinking about 25 groups of 40 and 25 groups of two." And I would be like, "What? Like, why are you doing that?" You know? Or they'd be like, "I did 100 times 42, and then I divided that in half, and then I divided that in half." And I would be like, "What? Like, why are you doing it that way?"

Vanessa Vakharia 18:20

Were you annoyed?

Courtney Flessner 18:21

was... I wasn't annoyed. I was fascinated. I was

Vanessa Vakharia 18:24

Right

Courtney Flessner 18:25

fascinated because I didn't know you could do that with numbers, right? So the first time I ever gave a, like, a fact interview for a basic, you know, fact fluency, and a kid was like, for nine plus six, he was like, "I changed the nine to a 10, and then I added six, and I took away one." I was like, "I'm sorry, you did what? Like, you're just changing numbers?" Like,

Vanessa Vakharia 18:47

You sound so annoyed.

Courtney Flessner 18:49

you can't change numbers in math. But you know what? You totally can change numbers in math, as long as you make up for it later on. And I didn't know you could do those things. And so

Vanessa Vakharia 18:59

Mhm.

Courtney Flessner 19:00

asking the questions, I started thinking, f- my reaction was, what else do I not know? Like, like, what, what else do I need to learn so that I can reach the kids and g- and give the kids what the kids need?

Vanessa Vakharia 19:14

But this, that by the way, just a flag, that is, that reaction is the sign of a true leader. Because a true leader doesn't shut something down because they don't know it and they're not doing it that way. The, the re- a- that is a very fair reaction of an expert to say, "Oh my God, what else do I not know?" Because as an expert, I want to learn more. Okay, keep going. Sorry, I just like...

Courtney Flessner 19:37

and but,

Vanessa Vakharia 19:37

Good work. Good work.

Courtney Flessner 19:39

you said, thank you, but when you said that's a good, I didn't mean to be like, yes, I am a very good leader, but I didn't mean to

Vanessa Vakharia 19:44

You are

Courtney Flessner 19:44

way. I meant to say, no, but I meant to say yes because I think that's a real obstacle. I

Vanessa Vakharia 19:50

Yes

Courtney Flessner 19:50

of teachers, they feel so much pressure and so much stress behind, like, the kids need a certain grade, they need a certain score on the standardized test, they need a certain thing, they need to show growth, they need all these things. They get so wrapped up in that, that they just want to give them the steps. They just want to pouch everything up for them so that they get those scores. And in reality, we're not helping them. Like, we're not giving them the tools they need so they can be successful in math throughout their entire careers. And so it's really hard. I- I've thought about this a lot over time and, like, I, like I, I, there are certain rules that I follow. I'm very good at following them. I think they're very important. There are other things that I'm like, I, I don't like that rule. I'm going to do it my way. and so it was very easy for me to be like, I don't know what I'm doing in my math classroom, and that's okay. Because in order for the kids to be able to have success, I'm going to have to figure some stuff out. And I was very comfortable saying that. even when our principal would pull us into the g- library and tell us our scores were going down and they need to go back up and do X, Y, and Z, I would be like, "Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay." And I'd go back to my classroom and I would teach my kids the way I knew they needed to be taught. And eventually, you know, it worked for their scores. But I, the, those were things that didn't... I was like, "I'm not teaching scores. I'm teaching the kids." You know? Like, that, that's what I'm doing. And that, I felt very comfortable doing that, and I understand that a lot of teachers are not in that, in that space, and I understand why. Like, I deeply understand why.

How can a teacher get comfortable with change?

Vanessa Vakharia 21:27

I would love to hear you talk to the teacher listening who's like, "Yeah, I wish I could be like Courtney too. I wish I could not care. I wish I was comfortable, but like I'm scared I'm gonna get fired. I'm scared I'm gonna get in trouble." Like, I don't know, like, like to, what... Give them a piece of advice. Give me, them some Courtney wisdom. Like how do they do it? How do they do, yeah

Courtney Flessner 21:45

that's a great question. I think, so at the end of any PD I do, I'm always thinking about, like, so what's, like, your one thing? Like, what's the one thing that you can take back and do tomorrow? And a really important part of professional development that I do is I want it to be, like, as accessible as possible. So I think about, like, we want maths to be accessible for students, and so any learning that I want teachers to do, I want it to be accessible to them. I want them to feel like, "I belong here. It's okay that I don't know all the things. It's okay that I learned a whole bunch of stuff today that I never knew before." And really think hard about what's the one thing that feels comfortable to take back to the classroom and try. know? What, what isn't going to send me completely over the edge? And sometimes, you know, at the end of a PD, teachers will be like, "I'm gonna go back and I'm gonna do all the things." And, and so my heart is like, yes! Like, you're gonna do all the things. You just learned all. That's awesome. But my head knows that you start with all the things, you'll end up doing none of the things because it'll become very overwhelming. So choose one thing, you know? Or write down three of those things and choose one to start with. And then when you're feeling really comfortable with that one thing, whether it's two weeks or six weeks or an entire quarter, whatever it is of the year, then add in the new thing. Because that's the You know, starting slow like that is how things become a habit for you and become just what you do, you know? So my one thing was asking questions. I th- I, you know, like, I think. Like, it And I had, I had an assistant in my room for many years who said, "Courtney, it's amazing because you will literally, when you find yourself talking too much or telling them too many things," she goes, "you take a physical step backwards and, like, a deep breath, and then you pose a question." And so she had

Vanessa Vakharia 23:39

I love

Courtney Flessner 23:39

her

Vanessa Vakharia 23:40

this

Courtney Flessner 23:40

Yeah, so she had just gotten her teaching license, and so she was really, like, you know, just observing things like that. And I'm like, "That's really interesting." And, and I still do it. Like I s- I still find myself r- 'cause I wanna think really hard before I respond to something because I- I'm trying to think of all of the, you know, all of the directions that it could go. And so, taking that step back and, and pausing to ask the question, like how do I, how do I rephrase this so that this person's learning something as opposed, you know, that, that they thought through in their head really thoughtfully as opposed to me saying, "Here's how you should be thinking about this,"

Vanessa Vakharia 24:19

Okay, so we are going to, I love this, take a step, like physically, I love the idea of embodying the practice. Take a physical step back when you feel like you're pushing too much and you wanna step back and ask. And can you give us some question stems? Like, what do you ask? Like, what's a good thing to ask?

Courtney Flessner 24:35

To ask students?

Vanessa Vakharia 24:36

Ja

Courtney Flessner 24:37

well, I guess I- a, a lot of times I'll say something like, "Tell me more about this. Tell me more I also, I feel like I learned a lot about question asking, like, in my, in my graduate school work. Like, don't ask questions that can end in yes or no or have

Vanessa Vakharia 24:52

Yes

Courtney Flessner 24:53

And so I carry that into work with teachers and students as well. And so, but honestly, Vanessa, it started with, like, once I h- was giving problems to kids and being like, "Okay, you solve this. Let me see how you're thinking about this before I make decisions about what I'm gonna do," sometimes I would look at their paper and I would be like, "I have no idea what's happening on this paper right now. I've, I've no idea what this child is doing." And so just literally looking at them and be like, tell me about your Like, what are you, what did you do?" And then as they start talking, I might, you know Like, I always have, like, a pen or pencil in my hand, and so I might be, I might point to somebody and be like, "Okay, so why did you put this four here?" Or like, "Why did you add these? Like, I'm seeing you added this. Like, why are you adding this?" And so I let them tell their story of their mathematical thinking, and then I ask questions for clarity, you know? And, and I start like that. I, I, m- initially I would, I think a lot of times I would be like, Tell me why you did that," or, "How did you solve that problem?" Or, "What were you thinking about?" And one of my favorite moments ever in my classroom a student, it was, like, six weeks into the year, a student from, like, across the room, her name was Dominique, and she goes and the kid, like, w- started talking about how he was thinking about the problem. And she goes, "Will you tell her why? Will you tell her why you did that? I'm tired of her asking us why."

Vanessa Vakharia 26:13

Well, I also think there, there's, you're saying some really cool things because what I'm hearing you say is, like, this started as, like, eye roll Ryan being like, "Do this," and you're like, "Fine, I guess I'll ask some questions." But it kind of turned into you almost, like, letting your curiosity guide your practice, where you're like, this isn't just li- I'm not just asking a question for the sake of it. I genuinely want to know why you did something, and because I'm no longer scared of making it clear that I have no fucking clue what's going on right now, like, because I'm no longer in fear around that and I'm ready to be vulnerable and be like, "I don't get it," now the questions pour out and they're genuine. And I think when they're genuine you're gonna get an answer, as opposed to, we all know this horror moment on a test that says, "Show me your thinking" or "Explain your" or show-- no, no, sorry. That, that's, that's too, like, of this age. I remember the, like, "Show your work," and you're like, what the fuck? Like, do you know what I mean? Like, number one, this is for marks, so now I don't even know what you want me to show and I, I know it's something that has to be graded, versus a teacher being like, "Hold on a second. Wait a second. I don't understand what you did here. Like, h- where did this four come from? This is so cool." It's like,

Courtney Flessner 27:20

Tell me more about that.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:21

Yeah, tell me more about that, and not just, like, you're saying that because you have to or because a grade is at stake. You, the adult in the room, are genuinely like, "I don't know how you did that." This actually reminds me. I'm wor- so my friend has a four-year-old. and we've been, like, doing math together. She keeps demanding math, okay? And I'm always like, I don't understand. Like, she'll-- she just wants me to give her numbers to, like, add and subtract, right? So I'll be like, "Five plus two," and she'll be like, she'll sit there and, like, her face will scrunch up and, like, she'll-- like, she's doing something. She's doing something, Courtney. Her face scrunches up, and I see maybe her mouth's moving or whatever, and all of a sudden she'll be like, "Seven." And I'll be like, "Oh my God," like, "what did you do?" And she'll be like, "I don't know." And I'm like, "How did you get that?" And she'll be like, "What do you mean?" Right? And I'm like, it's funny because I'm like, she's obviously doing something. She's, she's really little, right? So she can't necessarily access her thinking because who knows? Sometimes we just do this stuff, not because she's small, but because, like, we, sometimes we instantly just do this stuff and we're not aware of what our thought process was behind it. But it makes me think too, I could be doing a lot better in terms of asking questions, right? Sometimes, "Show me your work. What were you thinking?" is too big a question as opposed to what you said, which is, like, where did that four come from? Right? So I think this is actually-- oh my God, you should do, like, a whole session on this. I feel like we are constantly telling teachers to ask questions, and, like, we're either making it too deep, and it's, like, not that deep. It's like, just ask a question because you're curious, ask a question. Or it's like, maybe you're not curious, but you need to know some questions to ask to get some, to elicit a response from kids to get them to actually think about their thinking. So, like,

Courtney Flessner 28:57

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 28:57

I think this is really, really cool and really valuable. And so, like, I want, guys, if you're listening, try it. Try this. Try this this week and text us. Text the podcast. Tell us what question you asked and what happened

Courtney Flessner 29:07

And I think as, you know, you asked, like, what are some sentence stems, and that's such a good question. And, like, you see, like, you know, anchor charts and, like, or posters or whatever of sentence stems. And, like, sentence stems are a great place to get started. What I want teachers and students to know is you're not limited to that. Like, you're not limited to those sentences Like, really let's, let's, let's constantly be adding to those sentence starters because we begin to have more conversation and engage in talking about the math and learning from each other, we start finding out, like, we're starting our questions, we're starting our conversations in different ways. So the, the sentence stems are a great starter, but, like, let's always add to that list. Let's, let's make that list longer and better and bigger and more, wi- with many entry points for everyone.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:54

Oh my God, I love that. Okay,

Is a teacher's math anxiety contagious?!

Vanessa Vakharia 29:56

we're gonna shift gears a little bit here, Did you see the article from Chalkbeat that came out about how teacher math anxiety affects student performance?

Courtney Flessner 30:06

Like

Vanessa Vakharia 30:06

literally, basically, like, the crux of the article was, like, when teachers lack math confidence, students fall behind. I would like for you, because you work so much with educators all the time on a large scale, I would like to actually talk a little bit about this. Because there is this nasty rumor out there that I feel like I'm always trying to dispel that is basically like, if you're a teacher with math anxiety, you should not teach the children math because it's like the flu and your anxiety's gonna be contagious. And I actually think that narrative makes teachers who already have their own math trauma so much more anxious about teaching math, and then those teachers are like, "I can't try anything new because I don't wanna fuck up the kids, so I'm just gonna stick to this way of teaching that we know is not as effective as it could be," but they don't wanna like muck around and try and make mistakes, and they don't want their anxiety to show. Okay, cool. This article came out basically saying, you know, if you're a teacher with low math confidence, you know, it can affect your students' performance. But I don't like a headline like that. Like, literally the headline says, "When teachers lack math confidence, their students fall behind." Eh, hate it, don't like it, don't like that. There are specific reasons why your students might fall behind. It is not like, "Oh, you're nervous about math," like, your students are screwed, right? Can you help us here?

Courtney Flessner 31:15

Okay, so the first thing that I'm gonna say is I agree with you. Titles like that do not work for me at all. And when titles like that get put out into the world, and it's so easy to put things out into the world now with social media and whatever, I feel like it starts to give an excuse to teachers as being like, "Well, I have math anxiety. I, I don't like math, so my kids are going to score poorly. I feel like we are giving teachers and educators and, like, sort of the system, The Man, an excuse. Like, math ed's broken. We can't do it. I have math anxiety. I can't do it, right? Just from the title, okay? Now, I'm not saying that every teacher is like that. I am saying that I think as humans, it's really easy to read a title and draw conclusions and make assumptions and make them work for us in ways that we want them to work for us. I know I am guilty of that in a, in a, in 100 different ways. so I agree with you about the title I read the article that it cited, and I do think that based on my own experience and, and just w- you know, what I hear is fact that we find this a truth through our algorithms and the data is not surprising to me at all. I recently, one, one of my colleagues was doing a, a math audit in a school district and, and heard a teacher say, "I don't know why we're doing this. The book is telling us to. Let's just do it and, and just get it we-- And here's the thing, like I understand why the teacher said that. I understand why the teacher is feeling that way. The teacher has not had opportunity to learn in the way that the teacher needs to have opportunity to learn. And to be, to be f- forced, for lack of a better term, to teach kids that way, right? Because they have to follow the curriculum with fidelity or whatever term they're using, it feels very uncomfortable, and it heightens whatever anxiety or, you know, whatever emotion they're having with math right in that moment. And, and it shuts them down. And so that's why t- taking the time to work with teachers on how to teach math and, and to do math together is such a crucial component of it because we have to give them experiences that we want our students to have. We have to allow them to learn and think in different ways than they've ever learned before. So, like we have to give those experiences because I, I do think that based on observations, based on what I've read, based on the work that I know certain people are doing out in the world to help, to help us all understand how to better work with teachers, that this is absolutely an issue. And it has to be resolved.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:04

hold on. What needs to be resolved?

Courtney Flessner 34:06

Not feeling comfortable with math. It's not

Vanessa Vakharia 34:09

Okay. Yeah

Courtney Flessner 34:10

comfortable with teaching math, it's just comfortable with math. Not saying like, "Oh my gosh, that problem totally stresses me out and I don't know what to do." What I say to people, if that problem is stressing you out and you don't know what to do, grab the calculator that's in your pocket. Because in 1983 when I was eight years old, there was no way we would have ever thought we had calculators in our pockets, right? So if you were feeling uncomfortable finding that quick answer, just grab that calculator that's in your pocket, find the quick answer, then let's talk about different ways we might approach that. Like, this doesn't have to be like a you have to do it this way or you're doing it wrong type of situation. We've gotta meet everybody where they are, like period.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:48

But there's two... Okay, so hold on. There's two things going on here, though, I think. You're-- Okay, so we're saying this call to action is we need to resolve the situation of, like, the general populace being like, "I'm not comfortable with math. It scares me." Is that what you're saying, or are you talking about teachers? I wanna be, like, so clear.

Courtney Flessner 35:08

Both. The one thing that I don't think I've said yet, or if I have, I haven't said it well enough, is it is also not okay for schools to be spaces where teachers don't feel okay about what they're doing. Schools have to be spaces, they have to be spaces where teachers are like, "I have things to learn. It's okay that I have things to learn. I am getting better. I am growing. I am reaching my students. I am doing the best I can because I'm applying what I'm learning. I have support in this process." Schools need to be those places. So as, as school and district leaders, we have to ask very hard questions of what are we doing to create spaces where teachers feel okay about teaching math ambitiously? Like, what are we doing to, to make it possible for them to take risks and do things that they've never done before when it's going to not go well? There are going to be times that it, that they fail in their classroom, and that has to be okay because it has to be okay for the students, too. Like, our teachers are just as important. If we're not giving them what they need, the students are not going to get what they need, period. And it's not up to teachers to go find out that information on their own. We have to give it to them in, in our schools and find the time and space to do that.

Teachers can be honest about their own math anxiety

Vanessa Vakharia 36:36

Whoo. Oh my God, that was so good. Like, I am fired the fuck up. And also, so this is, like, now I'm really- I'm gonna land the plane. I wish that was a car metaphor for the pothole, but, like, whatever. Cause here's what I was getting at when I was like, "I don't like this article headline," because I think, and tell me if I'm wrong, the headline should not be, and I'm gonna read it again, "When teachers lack math confidence, their students fall behind." The headline should be, "When teachers lack math confidence and are not comfortable building their confidence or growing mathematically or doing something about it or expressing to their kids the reason they lack confidence is not because they, it, are innately incapable of math but because they've had bad math experiences or put in any effort to healing or model mistake." Like, do you know what I mean? It should be, it should, it's not teachers lacking confidence that leads to poor performance in students. It's teachers lacking confidence and then being resigned to that fact, and just being like, "Well, I lack confidence, and therefore, like, I'm just going to tell students I hate math and not try anything n-" Right? Am I right? It's like,

Courtney Flessner 37:46

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:47

the lacking confidence part

Courtney Flessner 37:48

yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, it's, it's totally a disposition. And I wanna be very clear that I think, I think it's okay for them to have that disposition if they've never been given opportunities to work through that disposition about how they feel about math. If we are just handing them over a curricular resource and being like, "Use this, it'll solve all the problems. It'll help, it'll help you in all the ways," but we're not teaching them how to use it. We're not engaging. We're not doing math with them. We're not talking about the lessons that we're doing. And,

Vanessa Vakharia 38:19

and so, like, I just wanna kinda like, as we wrap here, be like, if you're listening to this and then you're like, "Oh my God, but I don't, you know, I- there's so many areas of math I'm not confidence- confident about. I don't want my, my students to, like, you know, suffer." No, that's not the vibe. The vibe is we all have experiences that lead to us having a lack of confidence in math, or math anxiety, or a math trauma. That is fine. That is why you're here. That's why you're listening to this. The fact that you're listening to this, the fact that you're trying new things and you're, like, using that, that, experience you had to help other students not have that experience, that is, that is what will turn you from a teacher who is passing on math anxiety to a teacher who is healing it. So keep fucking doing it, right? Like, keep up the work. We want you here. The best, like, I- I don't wanna say the best because there are so many amazing math teachers, but some of the best math teachers I know are teachers who are healing math trauma from their own negative math experiences and from their own lack of confidence, and through them working through it, they're helping their teachers work through it. So, like, you don't need to be, like, 100% confident with math to suddenly be a good teacher. It's the working through that confidence. It's acknowledging that you have a lack of confidence, and actually taking proactive steps to change that that makes you an amazing teacher, right, Courtney? Am I right?

Courtney Flessner 39:36

Ab- yeah, yeah, totally. And, and, and knowing that, like, all of that is okay, right? So, like, if you're in a space where you're, you're not, you know, your, your mandatory PD isn't about that. You know? You feel like you don't have time, you know, because you've got all these other initiatives. I get it. I get that, totally. My suggestion would be, you know what, take five minutes, seven minutes, 10 minutes, and grab your team of teachers and say, "Y'all, can we work on this problem together? Can we think about all of the different ways that the kids might tackle this problem, where they might struggle, and what we might do in those moments?" Like, 10, just 10 minutes, right? Gra- grab a- go to the whiteboard, work on the problem together, right? So, a- an- the other, another book, I'm, I'm actually gonna start a book study on this this year, is it's called Learning Together. It's, by Elham Kazemi and Jessica Calabrese, and, Lindsey Gibbons is on it. It's this one right here, Learning Together. And it's, it, and the, the subtitle's Organizing Schools for Teacher and Student Learning, and it's, it's about that idea of like, let's bring everybody together. Let's do the math together, and then through teaching moves we might need to make in order for that math to be successful in our classrooms. And in doing that, we're be- we're, we're becoming more comfortable with the math. We are, you know, alleviating our anxiousness around not understanding the math, and, and we're doing it together, thereby creating, like, a shared vision gonna look like in our classrooms. This is what math is gonna look like in our school because we're doing this together. So even if your school's not offering that for you, just grab someone and be like, "Will you, w- can we just do this problem together?" and it makes such a difference. It makes such a

Vanessa Vakharia 41:24

Do it. I love this. Honestly, this is your call to action. Start, if you don't ha- If the year has started, it's time for the group chat. Who is gonna be your crew of teachers you do that with? So put some thought to it. I actually love that. We have to wrap up. I, I love how we started this, actually, like, in a quite chill way, being like, "Look at our drinks," and now we're, like, yelling at the top of our fucking lungs.

Courtney Flessner 41:44

I know, I'm

Vanessa Vakharia 41:45

okay. No, I love it. Final two questions.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 41:48

Final two questions that I ask everyone. You have 30 seconds to answer each one. Number one, if there's one thing you could change about the way math is taught, what would it be? You can, you... A genie's like, "I'll grant you one wish." What is it?

Courtney Flessner 42:00

Vanessa, I know we've talked about this today, but I really think it's, like, understanding, like, it's okay that it's not always going to go perfectly all the time from both the teacher point of view and the student point of view. that's my number one thing. Like, we have to be willing to take risks and try things and do things differently, if what we're doing's not working for everyone. And so I think that would be my number one thing, today anyway.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:26

I love it. I love

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 42:28

it. And finally, someone's like, "Yeah, I heard what you were saying about, like, how we've gotta, like, you know, get rid of it and it can't be acceptable to, like, not like math. I understand, but Courtney, like, you don't understand. Like, I'm not a math person." What would you say?

Courtney Flessner 42:41

I would say, I, I would say I understand why you feel that way. You need the opportunity to do some more math and think about math differently than you ever have before. You need to be given a chance to do that.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 42:54

Oh my God, this was so much fun. I feel like we need a final pothole statement to, like, end. Like, what should we say? Like, you know?

Courtney Flessner 43:02

Like

Vanessa Vakharia 43:03

I don't know, do you ha- do you have something?

Courtney Flessner 43:05

no, but you know what? A picture that I pulled up that I used in a presentation recently was a road with, like, many potholes. You know, like, you drive over them and you're like, "Ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga, ga," when you drive across it. And I just, I just think a lot about how, like, is that how teachers feel when they're in their classrooms, that they're driving over this long road full of many potholes and, you know, and this, and they have so much work that they have to do with their students. And I just, I just want everyone to know that, like, it's okay that you have that work to do. Take the time to do the work. Like, I promise your students are going to benefit from it, and it's going to come out in your favor over time, if you are one that is thinking hard about test scores and progress and all of that. Like, I, I firmly believe it because I lived it. Like, I lived it. And taking that time to rebuild is n- it's never going to work against you. It's never, ever going to work against you. But continuing to let the, the bad stuff seep into the potholes is, is gonna be hard for every single person in the classroom.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:16

Such amazing final words. Way to bring that metaphor home. And I think we should end by, like, cheering our Swig mugs. Like, sh- can we cheers? Okay, like, okay. Cheers.

Courtney Flessner 44:27

Cheers.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:30

I love her. I've been using this pothole analogy ever since our interview, both inside of education and, like, in my life, and it really makes me think about where in our schools, classrooms, and lives we are patching instead of fixing. I've really started to look at everything that way, and it's given me deep insight into why I feel, like, so frantic sometimes. When we're patching, it's frenetic, panicked, like, Whac-A-Mole energy. But when we're fixing, it takes longer, but it feels more like calming, jigsaw puzzle, like, healing energy. So how do we harness this? How do we find the patience to take the time needed to fix instead of patch? I would love to hear from you. Where in your school, classroom, or life do you feel like patching is happening instead of fixing, and how could you make that shift? Text us. Text me. All you have to do is hit the link in the show notes that says, "Text us." Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by David Kochberg, and the theme music is by our band, Goodnight Sunrise. As always, thank you guys so much for listening, sharing, and being a part of the community. If you want more Math Therapy, join our Facebook group. We have over 500 amazing members. Just hit the link in the show notes to join, and see you next week. It's gonna be amazing.

Outtake - Swig spill

Vanessa Vakharia 45:42

So let me ask you this actually, 'cause I'm confused, 'cause when I went to order my first drink, when you order the vanilla cream, so here's what I found. it's like it's just a dash. It doesn't taste very creamy. Oh. Oh my God. Shit. Guys, fuck. Yeah, I spilled all over myself. Okay, it's fine. Let's Okay, that's interesting. That's interesting you say that. I'm soaking wet now. Okay, everything's fine. It's 'cause I tr- okay. Let's begin again,