Hillary Mastarciyan

Hillary Mastarciyan 0:03

Neuroscience and education, I want them to be best friends. I would love to see neuroscience more recognized in the classroom. I struggled with math my whole life. I still struggle with math? If you gave me a math test right now, I probably wouldn't do very well. But, I learned neuroscience regardless of being good at math. it's possible. anyone can be a math person. Yeah. If there's something you wanna learn, don't let something get in the way of it.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:31

Hello, hello, and welcome to another episode of Math Therapy. I am your host, Vanessa Vakharia, and today we are asking a question I've been wondering about a lot lately. What if the reason kids struggle with math isn't about teaching at all, but rather about what's happening inside their brains? Like what actually goes on in there when a child sees a number for the first time, or tries to make sense of a plus sign, and why does that process break down for some kids and not others? I spend all day talking to educators about strategies, pedagogy, differentiation, the teaching side of math, but I do think we're not borrowing enough from psychology, cognitive science, and neuroscience. I've always said that. We know how to teach, but do we actually understand what's happening in a student's brain when they're learning, and why the curriculum can move so fast that the thing they finally understood yesterday is already gone by the next class? Well, today's guest, Hillary Mastarciyan, is a PhD student at Toronto Metropolitan University, studying numerical cognition, the cognitive psychology of how we learn math. She also happens to be a former student of mine from The Math Guru. That's right, I tutored her through high school math, and now she's the one teaching me about the intraparietal s- wait, the intraparietal sulcus. Okay, wait, don't press skip. That's just the region of the brain Hillary calls the "sweetheart of math", which lights up when you process numbers and magnitude. Don't worry, we're gonna tell you all about it. This conversation lit up my brain in so many ways. Hillary explains why math might be harder to learn than reading, because unlike language, we don't use math symbols in our daily lives, and mapping all those abstract symbols to meaning under a fast-moving curriculum is genuinely difficult for kids. She also shares research showing that boys and girls do not differ in math ability, but girls feel measurably less comfortable in math spaces. And also, the toys kids play with at age two might have more to do with their math identity than any gene. But the thing that floored me, a new meta-analysis from her lab found that a teacher's math anxiety does not transfer to students, but a parent's math anxiety does. Which, if you think about it, makes a ton of sense and is probably very relatable for many of us, but we need to talk about it because everything on the internet tells us the opposite. I know you're already thinking about your own math anxiety, or your kids, or that parent who says, "I'm not a math person" in front of their child over and over again, so send them this episode right now before we get into it. Okay.

What neuroscience tells us about math anxiety

Vanessa Vakharia 3:07

Welcome to the podcast.

Hillary Mastarciyan 3:09

Thank you for having me.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:10

I... So you're in... We're in the place where we tutored you.

Hillary Mastarciyan 3:13

Yes. this is one of the only... and we'll get into this later, but this is the one of the only places that I would've, like, survived high school math, so-

Vanessa Vakharia 3:22

Oh my God thank you. And t- okay, so let's just get right into it. What are you doing?

Hillary Mastarciyan 3:26

I am starting my PhD, but what I study... Like, so what I did my master's in was kind of, it was psychology, but it was kind of like math education, numerical cognition, which was more cognitive psychology, and developmental psychology.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:42

And what is the thing you are talking about right now or thinking about when it comes to math anxiety?

Hillary Mastarciyan 3:49

So I don't specifically study math anxiety, myself. I do more, like, math ability, early learning, like, early predictors of succeeding or struggling in math, but we do have people in my lab that focus specifically on math anxiety too.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:05

Okay. And you said this is, like, a combo of developmental psychology and- Yeah cognitive psychology? Yeah. So I actually wanna talk about that. You know, we... W- I've spoken to so many people who have studied and do work in math education from the education perspective. And it's really funny because when I wrote Math Therapy- one of the things I start the book by saying is that I don't think we are borrowing enough from fields like psychology- for example, or cognitive psychology, or coaching or like- Yeah any of those things. I don't think we're borrowing enough knowledge from those fields that have already researched that stuff, that know how like- we work, how we learn, that kind of thing. I don't think we're making use of that in education. I think when you go to an education program, you have a couple of courses on like a psych thing here, on like Maslow's hier- hierarchy and like that's kind of it. Whereas I actually think it would be so interesting to hear from your perspective what kinds of things you are learning when it comes to math learning- from that perspective.

Hillary Mastarciyan 5:02

Yeah, and so that's a really good segue. So we do numerical cognition or math cognition. We use both of the terms interchangeably. And I mean, like myself, my lab, my supervisor, but also just the field of math cognition. And it's different from math education because we study like, we call it cognitive mechanisms of learning math- Oh my God or learning in general. So

Vanessa Vakharia 5:24

like- I'm like already drooling. Like, what does that mean?

Hillary Mastarciyan 5:27

Well, like what's going on like in terms of perception and cognition when you're doing something like math, as opposed to everything that's being learned in the classroom, being taught by teachers, what's going on with your peers. So it's different from the actual education side of like the curriculum. it's more about these like almost basic science concepts of cognition. And so like what's going on in your brain or what are you processing cognitively when you're doing math? We're not, like, studying, like, what's going on in the classroom-

Vanessa Vakharia 5:58

Yes

Hillary Mastarciyan 5:59

but that's something that I'm really interested in. I'm interested in, like, the, the intersection of both. So, like, I like learning about cognitive mechanisms. I like studying them. I like researching them, and by that, I mean, like, what's going on when you're learning numbers for the first time, like when you're- Like in

Vanessa Vakharia 6:15

a student's- Yeah mind.

Hillary Mastarciyan 6:16

Yeah, exactly. Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:17

Got it.

Hillary Mastarciyan 6:18

But I'm also interested in, like, what's actually being taught in the classroom, especially, like, in Ontario, 'cause I live here. Like, I wanna know what's going on with kids here. Like, what are they actually learning. So yeah, it's a mix of both. My interests are a mix of both. My lab is more cognitive in general, so a little bit less math education, but I'm kind of a mix of both.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:38

Okay,

Where math happens in the brain

Vanessa Vakharia 6:39

Tell me some of the findings. Because, you know, again, this is such a cool intersection because I spend so much time talking to educators about, like, different strategies that work in terms of how to solve a problem or how to understand a concept or how to explain something, but now we're kind of getting the other side of you being like- "But let me tell you what's going on in a student's actual brain." And obviously, all brains are different.

Hillary Mastarciyan 6:58

Yeah, totally.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:59

But can you tell me some key findings, like things that you just find interesting-

Hillary Mastarciyan 7:03

Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia 7:04

so- that educate, that you're like, "Teachers should know this stuff"?

Hillary Mastarciyan 7:06

Yeah, so, there's actually a conference, it's like a small conference that brings together, like, educators and researchers. It's called Assessment and Instruction in Mathematics, and that's, like, a really great place where there's lots of teachers, educators, policy people all together-

Vanessa Vakharia 7:23

All together, yeah

Hillary Mastarciyan 7:24

with the researchers. It's beautiful.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:24

Which, like, we all need to learn-

Hillary Mastarciyan 7:25

It's beautiful

Vanessa Vakharia 7:26

from each other,

Hillary Mastarciyan 7:26

yeah. It's only really in, I think, in Ontario or in Canada, but it's a good group.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:31

Okay.

Hillary Mastarciyan 7:31

but back to what you're saying, the, the key findings and what we think are cool. there's, like, a part in the brain, like a region in the brain that we call, like, the sweetheart of math.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:41

what? Tell me more.

Hillary Mastarciyan 7:41

yeah, it's like, it's called the intraparietal sulcus. it's kind of at the back of your brain, kind of a little bit deep in. and that's, like, the magnitude processing, number pro- processing, like, region in the brain, and there's obviously other regions in the brain that are important for doing math, like fact retrieval or problem-solving and things like that. But this is the kind of the region in the brain that they've found that, like, is, like, the sweetheart of number.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:09

So hold on, because you know how we always talk about, like, are people born with, like, brains that are better at math? Do you have thoughts on that?

Hillary Mastarciyan 8:17

I don't think there's, at least from my, like, basic understanding right now still as a grad student, I don't think there's- I don't think it's fair to say that people have better- Yeah brains for math versus not.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:28

And that's literally what all the research shows.

Hillary Mastarciyan 8:30

Yeah. I think, like, there's a lot of different factors that play into whether or not you're gonna succeed in math, unrelated to, like, biological reasons-

Vanessa Vakharia 8:38

So, like, what are some of those factors?

Hillary Mastarciyan 8:40

So there's things like home environment factors, like your classroom environment, things like math anxiety or math avoidance, so internal things. But also, yeah, there, there have been studies that have shown various different, like- kind of results as to, like, what these regions in the brain are doing for, you know, some students that might be struggling in math versus others that are succeeding. Like, there's different patterns of activation, but they haven't really kind of like tamped down which one is better at math or... I don't think that's as easy of an answer.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:13

And like you said, there's, I think one thing you just kinda said that I wanna like touch on is you were like, "There are so many different areas that we would look at for math." Totally. Because, like, sure, maybe that, the sweetheart of math part of the brain. Sorry, what was it called?

Hillary Mastarciyan 9:24

The intraparietal sulcus.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:25

Okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That thing.

Hillary Mastarciyan 9:26

The IPS.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:27

The IPS. Kinda sounds like an IPA, which is a beer. So I'll remember it that way. IPS, you said that has to do with, like, magnitude?

Hillary Mastarciyan 9:33

Like- Magnitude processing. So, like, can you-

Vanessa Vakharia 9:36

Like size?

Hillary Mastarciyan 9:36

Yeah, size, quantity. can you compare like a set of dots on the left and the right of the screen, and which one has more? And we can manipulate that by, like, the size of the dots, how close they are together, how far apart they are, things like that. So, like, the magnitude or symbols too. So, like, an Arabic digit or, like, a verbal number word. Like saying three versus, like, seeing a three symbol. those, like, you see activation in this part of the brain when you're doing math.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:04

Okay. Yeah. So there's that. But then, like you just said, there are other areas that are responsible for things like fact retrieval-

Hillary Mastarciyan 10:11

Yeah, totally right?

Vanessa Vakharia 10:11

Which is a part of math. Exactly. And I, and I think-

Hillary Mastarciyan 10:13

It's a step

Vanessa Vakharia 10:14

it's a step. I, and I think we do have to, I think it's really important to, like, as we're talking about this, to be like this is why we can't just be like, "Oh, there's a..." Like, we can just see in the brain if you're good at math or not. It's like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 10:26

Of course not

Vanessa Vakharia 10:27

and, and part of the thing is, like, math encompasses so many things. Like, fact retrieval is important. So is magnitude processing. It's not like one is more important than the other.

Hillary Mastarciyan 10:36

Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:36

That's why it's called mathematics with an S, guys.

Hillary Mastarciyan 10:38

Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:39

Okay. So loving. Okay.

Why students struggle in math

Vanessa Vakharia 10:41

So this is... So now I wanna actually talk about, struggling students, right? Yeah. You were saying there are things we can kinda see. Because I have a lot of educators that are struggling with their struggling students, right? A lot of people historically struggle in math. First of all, do you have an opinion or, or a, a fact-based opinion- as to why that is?

Hillary Mastarciyan 10:59

Why students struggle?

Vanessa Vakharia 11:00

With math more than, like, other, like, why is math such a thing? And if not, no worries.

Hillary Mastarciyan 11:04

Um, a good example, and this is kind of like what I study in terms of, when I say early learning and early predictors of, math ability, is, when a child first sees, abstract symbols, and that, I mean, like Arabic digits or, like, the plus sign or the division sign, it can be difficult to learn all of these abstract symbols and map them all to these different meanings, right? Like, when you're learning how to read or how to write, obviously children can have struggles with these things as well, but we talk every day. We communicate with one another, right? so we learn how to read and we learn how to write. We learn how to speak and communicate with one another. I think math is a little bit more abstract, even though there's math everywhere. People don't realize that, I feel like, enough. And so when you're mapping these symbols, there's a lot of meaning-making you have to do, right? You have to, like, learn that an addition means this, but in some languages they explain addition differently than in English, right? Like, it's, very different how, math is taught in the world as well. And so I think, struggling can also come from, the early basis of, like, struggling to make meaning out of, like, everything and, like, hold that meaning in your, in your brain.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:19

Well, it's interesting what you say. Like, it's like yes, we do math every day, but we do not use math symbols every day. We don't- Like, let's say you go to the grocery store Totally like, fine, maybe you're adding, but you're not actually using a plus sign.

Hillary Mastarciyan 12:33

No, and not everybody in their head is visualizing, like, 30 for my bread because we're... It's expensive now. We're in economic crisis. $30 for my bread plus whatever.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:44

Like, they're not- What bread are you buying for $30?

Hillary Mastarciyan 12:47

I don't know, like, Summerhill Market bread.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:48

Yeah, 100% Summerhill Market, okay.

Hillary Mastarciyan 12:50

But, not everybody's visualizing, like, 30-

Vanessa Vakharia 12:52

Yeah

Hillary Mastarciyan 12:52

plus something else, right? And so I think, having to map these abstract symbols to meaning and then remember all of them especially when the curriculum moves quickly, is, difficult to do. That's my best guess. I don't think it's... I think there's a lot to the story. I don't think that's the full story, but I think that has to do with it.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:12

That has to do with it. Well, it's funny, I actually, I, I don't know much about this, but somebody just sent me a paper they wrote on learning math as a second language.

Hillary Mastarciyan 13:21

Interesting.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:21

And I was like, that would be really interesting, right? Yeah. Because it's yeah, if you look at math as a language, first of all, you would teach it differently. You would teach it the way you teach a language. And then that just makes me think of, of, of the symbol idea. Yeah. Right? Of like when you're learning a language, a lot of it is about the symbols. It's about the lettering. Yeah. It's about, like... Okay. Totally.

Which students tend to struggle with math?

Vanessa Vakharia 13:38

Very interesting. So let's talk about struggling students. Who is struggling in math? Are there specific people who are struggling in math?

Hillary Mastarciyan 13:45

within the field there's, different researchers that believe different things, or kind of different camps, let's say, or different theories. some researchers believe that it's, math specific, numbers specific, you know, issues. So again, this kind of, mapping problem an inability to, like, really grasp certain types of math concepts. So again, that's a great example. Like, really struggling to map symbols and make meaning of symbols. Other researchers think it's, working memory issues or attention issues, that contribute to math. But it might be contributing to overall, like you're also struggling with reading or struggling with writing. And it's related to, you know, having working memory deficits or attention deficits, things like that. And that kind of contributes. And then more recently, kind of the view that I like to take is that it can be a mix of both. you can struggle with, you know, specific executive functions like working memory or attention, or being able to, like, switch from, like, this task to another task. If you think about writing, doing your homework and going from geometry to arithmetic and, like, immediately switching, like, that can be hard to do. But it can also be, like, numbers specific. Like, you might struggle more with geometry than you do with algebra or something. Yeah. I think it could be a mix of both.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:00

And I'm curious because I feel like I hear so often, like we run a tutoring center- as you know. And I will hear parents all the time be like, "My kid is getting As in everything except for math." That'll be like the thing they say because a lot of parents are very grade focused. Like, fine. And I, I wonder if you have any insight as to that. Like, are things like working memory, for example, would they more significantly impact math learning than other subjects?

Hillary Mastarciyan 15:27

That's a good question. I-

Vanessa Vakharia 15:29

And we don't have to know. I'm just curious.

Hillary Mastarciyan 15:30

Yeah. I mean, when you learn about executive functions in general, they say they're for higher order processing in general. So like problem solving- and critical thinking abilities, you need executive function or like executive functioning abilities to do these things. but the math portion is really interesting, and I think that's like somewhere I wanna go further, like, in my research, is like understanding, like why is math difficult when you could be, you know, excelling or doing, you know, very typical in reading or science. Especially science, because science is kind of also the intersection at times of like math and other worldly like related things, right? So I don't really know why kids struggle the most, but I think that's why, this is what I study. Yeah. 'Cause I'm like, "Why is it happening?"

Vanessa Vakharia 16:19

Yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 16:19

Because math is also so important, right? So why is it happening with one of these really important skills?

Vanessa Vakharia 16:24

100%. So you said one of the things you're interested in is really early learning- right? And early predictors of like, you know- Yeah would you say early predictors of math ability, early predictors- Yeah of performance, identity?

Hillary Mastarciyan 16:36

Math ability, performance, like I kind of use those words interchangeably. They're not completely interchangeable, but yeah, like, um, when you're in kindergarten and you're learning math, or grade one, and it's like very early basic math, are you struggling, are you succeeding, and why?

Vanessa Vakharia 16:51

And what have you found?

Hillary Mastarciyan 16:52

Well, those are my basic interests, but my master's was actually using like educational data, and that's not... it's early learning- 'cause it's grade three, grade six, grade nine, but it's not the first time you've ever like- Right gone to school and heard about math. but that's what I wanna continue in my PhD, is like the very early learning, so like two to five or two to six, where like you're in preschool or you're about to enter kindergarten, but you haven't got there yet, and the only experience you've had with math is at home.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:25

Oh my God. I... And what are you gonna look, like what do you wanna find out?

Hillary Mastarciyan 17:28

I wanna do a couple of different studies. I, I wanna do like a neuroimaging study where I can, you know, look at the like cognitive processes of early learning. So, you know, sitting down with kids and, and seeing their familiarity with math even just like things like how many blocks are there versus how many circles or things like that, and use neuroimaging tools to like look at the cognitive process behind that. but then also other behavioral studies, so like- Just looking directly at performance. And it'd be very interesting to do a longitudinal study where, like, you look at this really early performance, and then you see how they're doing in grade six or something

Vanessa Vakharia 18:06

And you see if, school actually ruins math for them forever?

Hillary Mastarciyan 18:08

Yeah, like exactly. Like, I'd love to see that. But, it's pretty hard to

Vanessa Vakharia 18:11

do What kind of math are kids t- at that young doing?

Hillary Mastarciyan 18:15

I- in kindergarten?

Vanessa Vakharia 18:16

Yeah

Hillary Mastarciyan 18:16

they're learning, shapes. They're learning names of shapes or colors they're not doing the math that you're then getting homework for. they're familiarizing them- themselves with numbers. They're learning that, you know, five is bigger than three. But what does five mean?

Vanessa Vakharia 18:33

Right

Hillary Mastarciyan 18:34

and they're learning to count. So like, early learning is just familiarizing yourselves with numbers. And the interesting part is, they learn them non-symbolically, so it could be like one swig jug-

Vanessa Vakharia 18:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah

Hillary Mastarciyan 18:46

Versus like the l- the number one The number one,

Vanessa Vakharia 18:48

yeah

Hillary Mastarciyan 18:49

And like, having to make a, like a mapping relationship between that. Like, I know that we're sitting in two chairs, but if we had a two-year-old here They might not understand that we're sitting in, this is two chairs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that also can mean the letter, like the letters that make up the word two.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:05

Yeah. I see what you're saying.

Hillary Mastarciyan 19:06

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:06

That's

Does gender affect math ability?!

Vanessa Vakharia 19:07

really interesting. It's funny 'cause I was just talking to a parent- as you saw, about, I hear this all the time too. Like, she was like, "Oh, my son is like naturally good at math- and my daughter kind of struggles," and this idea of like natural ability. And I always say, I'm like, "But you have to remember, natural ability, this thing we're calling natural ability isn't like you just like popped out of the womb like- No knowing stuff." I'm like, "It has to do with such early socialization."

Hillary Mastarciyan 19:30

Of course.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:31

Right? So it's like what toys are they both playing with? Like, what is their environment? Like, who are they hanging out with? What kind of messages are they getting? I'm actually curious if you have a response to that idea of like, you know, because you'll hear people say all the time, "Well, I raised my kids the exact same," or you know, this kind of thing. And it's like- But, yeah what are the little factors we're not thinking about that might influence their math ability later on?

Hillary Mastarciyan 19:53

The biggest one that everybody always thinks of is toys in kindergarten, and even at home. boys are usually playing with blocks or trucks or cars, and those are like inherently spatial toys, so they're learning about space early. And, girls are often playing with little kitchen sets and dolls. I mean, not, I don't know what actual two-year-olds are playing with now. But I don't know any two-year-olds, but-

Vanessa Vakharia 20:17

I know what you're saying

Hillary Mastarciyan 20:18

specifically.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:19

But like the- They're not always. No, exactly. But traditionally, if you go to a toy store and you look at the aisles- Yes,

Hillary Mastarciyan 20:25

exactly

Vanessa Vakharia 20:25

you will see gender toys in this way.

Hillary Mastarciyan 20:27

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:27

Whereas the boys toys prioritize spatial awareness and mathematical-

Hillary Mastarciyan 20:32

Exactly

Vanessa Vakharia 20:33

um, performance way more, I will see.

Hillary Mastarciyan 20:35

Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:35

I will see that all the time.

Hillary Mastarciyan 20:36

Exactly. So then we can confirm here that you're still seeing that that toy difference. So that's the big one, but as you're mentioning, like there are these sociological things happening at home to socialization, that I feel like- They're kind of inherent to our society, so it's hard to just say "Oh no, I raised my children the exact same." well everybody's biased to some extent. So you can't be like completely unbiased and say they're raised exactly the same.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:03

People are- Well, it's also like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 21:04

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 21:04

who are they play- like who are their friends? Exactly. Who are they playing with? What are their friends' houses like? It's like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 21:08

Exactly

Vanessa Vakharia 21:08

I think I really want people listening to understand that this idea of natural ability, what we are, what we are conflating with early nurture is turning into a nature argument. Right? Like, it's like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 21:22

Totally

Vanessa Vakharia 21:22

there is nurturing that is happening early on and it's like all the subtle, it's like death by 1,000 paper cuts, even though it's not death. Like that sounds really bad. Yeah, yeah. But do you know what I mean? It's like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 21:30

But almost like the downfall it feels like.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:32

Yeah. Like in what way?

Hillary Mastarciyan 21:34

Well, well, I, I don't know if anyone has mentioned this on the podcast yet, but like the research does show that boys and girls don't differ- Yeah in their math ability.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:45

I had, I had a- Like- a neuroscientist on the podcast- Okay, perfect who studies gender and the brain.

Hillary Mastarciyan 21:50

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:50

And they literally did th- say that.

Hillary Mastarciyan 21:52

Yeah. Like there aren't- But

Vanessa Vakharia 21:53

thank you for re- we could restate this a million times Thank you. Yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 21:55

There aren't differences like in their actual performance, but girls struggle more with feeling like they can like be comfortable in a math space. Yeah. and I actually learned about that before I even like met my supervisor and got into this field. Like the first paper I wrote that kind of had to do with this was about girls not feeling comfortable in stereotypically kind of like boy gendered classrooms, science classrooms and math classrooms, and it was a, like a lit review on girls' enrollment in like science classes or math classes, and they were asked things "Would you be more comfortable learning in this classroom or this classroom?" And it would show different pictures of like a stereotypical science classroom or a math classroom or a typical one.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:43

What was in the picture? Like describe.

Hillary Mastarciyan 22:45

Like it would be like what you would picture like a s- like- All the things that we think of, of science and math, like the same way... There was a study, like the draw scientist study. Yeah. For so long it was a man, and it's changing. But- Okay,

Vanessa Vakharia 22:59

but tell us about the study for people who don't know

Hillary Mastarciyan 23:01

there was a study that was done, I'm sure it's been replicated multiple times,

Vanessa Vakharia 23:04

It's been replicated for math, too.

Hillary Mastarciyan 23:06

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:06

It was like draw... Sorry, now I'm just speaking over. No, no, no,

Hillary Mastarciyan 23:08

no, no.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:08

No, you say, you say.

Hillary Mastarciyan 23:09

Basically, it, it asked young children to draw a scientist or draw a mathematician, like from what they think it would be in their mind's eye, and so often it's a man or a boy versus- Yeah, like they would

Vanessa Vakharia 23:21

draw

Hillary Mastarciyan 23:22

a man a, a girl or a woman. Yeah. Yeah. And that kind of showed the, the example of inherent socialization of like, we see boys and men in these like math and science spaces as opposed to girls and women and, and what the differences are here. But again, like the, the important take home is like they're not actually performing differently. It's maybe their comfortability in the space.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:44

Uh, no, You mean they weren't actually performing differently as in like their grades weren't different?

Hillary Mastarciyan 23:47

Yeah, their grades. Yeah. Like, in terms of like their actual g- their letter grades or their test scores, whatever, like the, it's not that girls are actually worse at math or anything like that. Yeah. It's just like the socialization.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:59

Well, and like girls will pref- will say they feel worse at math when they're getting the same grade as like a male counterpart.

Hillary Mastarciyan 24:06

Exactly. This is what we talked about before.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:07

Do you know this is what my master's thesis was on? Yes. Okay, okay. Yes, I do. I'm like, this is actually what I- Yeah literally everything I did, and so it's really, it's actually really cool to hear you kind of doing something similar a decade later. So it's funny that you're still finding that.

Hillary Mastarciyan 24:21

Well, it's, it's fun, like to... That's why I'm like, you're like, "Why do you wanna do a PhD? Like what, like makes this your passion?" Like- What

Vanessa Vakharia 24:29

I said to her was, "Oh my God, why the fuck do you wanna do a PhD? That sounds like so much work that I would never wanna do." That was, were my exact words.

Hillary Mastarciyan 24:37

I just want to continue the work that like-

Vanessa Vakharia 24:39

Yeah

Hillary Mastarciyan 24:40

your type of master's thesis was doing. I wanna just continue studying this, and it's a pretty small field. Whenever I tell people I study math, they think I'm doing math.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:48

Yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 24:48

And then they like, that's really also funny, they then like put you on a pedestal of like, "Oh, well, you get a, you're having a PhD in math." no, I don't have a Ph- I'm not getting a PhD in math, I'm getting a PhD in psychology, and I study how people learn math, and they don't really ever understand that.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:04

They should still put you on a pedestal. Yes. But this is my whole other argument- that people think you're smarter than everyone else if you can do math suddenly.

Hillary Mastarciyan 25:10

Exactly. But, a w- the point is, like I'm interested in continuing this research, 'cause it's really important. And like kids are always gonna be learning math. And kids have been struggling for a very long time so why are they struggling? That's what we're, like trying to get to.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:25

So we don't have an answer right now, but we have some ideas.

Hillary Mastarciyan 25:28

We have lots of different ideas, that are contributing, like s- again, small pieces. and the, the next step of that is, like getting these answers to the educators, and getting educators involved in, like what we learn so that can be translated into the classroom.

Is math anxiety contagious? (From teachers OR parents)

Vanessa Vakharia 25:43

Is there anything you've learned thus far that- you think would be really 'Cause most of the people who listen to this podcast, not everyone, but most of them are educators. Is there anything you want them to know?

Hillary Mastarciyan 25:52

you're doing a good job, and you don't and you don't get enough credit for everything you do.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:56

Oh, my gosh.

Hillary Mastarciyan 25:56

Let's start there.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:57

Facts, that's so cute.

Hillary Mastarciyan 25:58

Um-

Vanessa Vakharia 25:58

It's true

Hillary Mastarciyan 25:59

but what I also know based on, this is again kind of the math anxiety piece, is, a lot of educators don't often also feel super confident in their math abilities, and can be highly math anxious as well. And so that can kind of translate, you know, in that piece as well of, like you're math anxious. I always hear, like, And I would love to hear if this is incorrect. Like, that- I'm ready.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:24

That it's contagious?

Hillary Mastarciyan 26:25

Well, math anxiety is contagious, can be contagious. But I mean more so, like, a lot of individuals are interested in doing, like, primary school or elementary school teaching because they're scared of having to teach, grade 12 math, right?

Vanessa Vakharia 26:39

I can clarify this right now. Yeah. Okay. So first of all, to teach high school math-

Hillary Mastarciyan 26:44

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 26:45

you need to take math in university.

Hillary Mastarciyan 26:47

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:47

So it would make sense that- Yeah if you did not feel, great about math- you would not do that, right? No. It's not like you're like, "Oh, I'm scared of teaching grade 12 math." You're like, "I have no desire to do that. I don't personally love math- Yeah or feel good about it, so I'm not gonna do that." Exactly. Whereas an elementary teacher, okay, we're in Canada, so we're just gonna talk Ontario- Yeah, yeah Ontario right now, but this is, similar. Yeah. It's, adjacent across North America. An elementary teacher does not need to take any university math. So, like, if you're an elementary teacher, you're expected to teach everything.

Hillary Mastarciyan 27:13

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:14

Right? Like, Math just being one of the things. So it has... It's not like you go into teaching elementary school because you hate math. You're like, "I wanna be a teacher."

Hillary Mastarciyan 27:21

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:22

"I have to teach a bunch of different things. I happen to not feel great about math."

Hillary Mastarciyan 27:27

Yeah, and this is, a good segue. Just...

Vanessa Vakharia 27:29

Well, it's like I- I just don't like the framing. I, I... This isn't you. I think this is a good thing to clear up. It's not like people are like, "I'm becoming an elementary teacher because I hate math, and I don't wanna teach high school," right? No. Yeah. It's, more like you really wanna be a teacher.

Hillary Mastarciyan 27:42

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:42

And, like, along

Hillary Mastarciyan 27:43

the- And you wanna teach children. that's the exciting part, like, early in your life when you can shape them.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:47

100%. Well, and also, I have found, in my work, some of the best elementary teachers- are the teachers who they themselves have anxiety around math, have math trauma- they don't feel comfortable, and they want to provide a healing experience for their students.

Hillary Mastarciyan 28:03

Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia 28:03

Right? 'Cause they're like, "Oh my God, this happened to me," and so maybe they feel- Yeah anxious around math. And sorry, I am gonna be a bit nitpicky because I just, I just said this in my last interview, and I'm always like, "Uh, math anxiety is not contagious." This is not a thing. 100%, if you have, like, ick feelings about math- and you engage in certain actions as a result- yes, your students may also develop anxiety. Example, you're feeling anxious around math, you have your own math anxiety, and you get up in front of the classroom and you're like, "Guys, I hate teaching math. But I just have to do it anyway, so let's just breeze through this unit." Like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 28:36

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 28:36

yeah, that's gonna suck. But also, guess what? You can love math and be great at math, and also cause math anxiety.

Hillary Mastarciyan 28:43

Well, this is a really great- Great. Got into it that's a really great point. There's,

Vanessa Vakharia 28:47

Thank you. So- Not yelling at you.

Hillary Mastarciyan 28:49

No, no, no. Phenomenally put. But on that note, and I think teachers will like to hear this, and educators, there's some colleagues in my lab that are doing a meta-analysis. So, like, they look through a million papers and they run analyses on all the findings of previous research. That's kind of like a very gist of a meta-analysis of a specific topic. And what they chose was math anxiety in, social relationships that aren't just yourself and your parent, or yourself and your teacher- Oh they did parents, teachers, and peers.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:21

Okay.

Hillary Mastarciyan 29:22

This kind of "is math anxiety contagious" idea. And what they found is that math anxiety between the teacher and the student is not contagious, as you're saying. Like, a teacher's math anxiety is not going to pass on to a student. But what they found is that teachers' math anxiety has nothing to do with a child's math anxiety or ability. But they did find that, parent math anxiety does contribute to a child's math anxiety. W- why might that be? I would assume it's maybe you're at home and you're doing homework with the parent. I don't know. That's not the definitive answer, but that's my best guess. But it's in early, like, elementary years, and it becomes stronger, this, anxiety reciprocal relationship, in adolescence. And so they're working on finishing, you know, that project, but that's a really exciting finding, that it's, it's not with the teachers, it's not specific with the teachers. But there is something interesting about, like, the parent-child relationship with math anxiety.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:25

It would be interesting. Again, I'm certainly not an expert at this. I've read a lot of this research. And because, like, I'm pretty invested in making sure teachers don't feel like they can't teach math because they're anxious about it you know, and I know it's actually a strength if they treat it the right way.

Hillary Mastarciyan 30:38

Of course.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:39

it, It's interesting what you say about the parents, 'cause I've read that as well. I've also read studies showing that, anxiety is more likely to be passed down to a student from a female teacher to a female student.

Hillary Mastarciyan 30:50

Interesting.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:51

Which is interesting, I know. But again, I think those articles, when I actually read them- like, those headlines sound so glaring, and when I read- I know right? You're like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 31:00

They sound so glaring

Vanessa Vakharia 31:01

and then I read them, and I'm like, hold on, that's not what it's actually saying at all. Yeah. It often has to do with how that anxiety manifests in a teacher's practice.

Hillary Mastarciyan 31:09

Oh, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:10

Right? And then so, like, thinking about the parent stuff, it makes me think, well, if you're a parent, you're not just seeing your students for an hour in the classroom, right? It's like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 31:19

You're seeing them at home all the time.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:20

Well, and also they're seeing you live your life. So, like, let's say you're like- you know, like at the grocery store having a panic about like adding something together and not- like they're gonna be witnessing all those moments. 'Cause think about it. Forget math for a second. I remember my friend saying she, you know, just had her, she had her baby like a couple years ago. And she's deeply afraid, like my friend who's the mom, is really afraid of spiders. Okay. And she was like, "I make sure to never freak out when there's a spider around-

Hillary Mastarciyan 31:47

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 31:47

because I don't want my child-"

Hillary Mastarciyan 31:49

To become afraid of spiders too.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:51

Exactly, because it's like it's not a teaching thing. It's like they're witnessing how you react. They're watching.

Hillary Mastarciyan 31:55

Yeah, and that's the whole like developmental psychology thing too. Like your, your child is watching you and how you react, and that's, that makes an imprint too, right- Right on, on their development. And so like the, the parent aspect is interesting And I think it still needs like a lot of research- Yeah to really validate, like you're saying, these like glaring headlines. there's a lot of work that still needs to be done. And like I said before, there's a lot of pieces to the puzzle that come to like a final result of why a child is math anxious or why a parent is math anxious. but I think it, it gives you a lot of like insight as to like why are people anxious about math, how can we change it, and like what's gonna happen coming next. You know what I mean?

Vanessa Vakharia 32:38

Well, I think you're also highlighting such a good point that like we want this answer. Yeah. we want it to be "Oh, it's this thing. It's that thing." Yeah. And it's no, there's a whole bunch of factors. It's like being like, "What made you the person you are today?" It's not like one thing.

Hillary Mastarciyan 32:49

Yeah, you can't be like, "Well, and it was this one thing that happened to me once" and-

Vanessa Vakharia 32:51

Yeah

Hillary Mastarciyan 32:52

that's just not how it goes

Vanessa Vakharia 32:53

no, it's like all these things. Yeah. So it would like be, it's important for us to pay attention to all of these things- and not to neglect any of them.

Hillary Mastarciyan 32:59

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:59

And then like for those listening, w- think about what your role is in a person's life.

Hillary Mastarciyan 33:05

Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:05

Right? Like, period. So it's like are you a parent? Are you a friend to someone who hates math? Yeah. Are you their teacher? Like, are you a leader of a teacher who feels math anxious? And like what are the things you can actually do? What's in your control to do like right now? Like, is it you're gonna change the way you react when you feel nervous about math?

Hillary Mastarciyan 33:21

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:21

And instead of being like, "Oh, I hate this," you're gonna be like, "You know what? This makes me uncomfortable-" Yeah "but I'm gonna try it anyways." Like-

Hillary Mastarciyan 33:26

Definitely

Why timed tests fuel math anxiety

Vanessa Vakharia 33:27

Are there other things? Is there anything else you would like be like, "Hey, here's a thing that might make a difference for somebody in your life that feels anxious around math. Here's something you can do, listener."

Hillary Mastarciyan 33:35

When I think about like advice to like a teacher too, but even to a friend being anxious about math, like I just think about hoping like I had had more time and more kind of acceptance around not understanding math.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:49

Like when you were learning

Hillary Mastarciyan 33:50

math? Yeah, when I was learning math, and I'm sure other students that are math anxious or struggling with math, like struggling learners in general, would just appreciate a little bit more time- and room. Do you know what I mean?

Vanessa Vakharia 34:01

Yes.

Hillary Mastarciyan 34:02

To feel that, as opposed to it being this big like, "Okay, well you, you failed or you're very close to failed your unit test," and like, "It's over for you now." Like that's a crappy feeling. Yeah. Right? And so I'd, I'd say just like giving the math anxious people in your life like a little bit more room to feel that. Yeah. jumping to conclusions or needing to find, like, an immediate solution. Like, just giving them a little bit of room.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:26

I love that. Yeah. Yeah Just some room, some time. Yeah. This is also why I'm always like, "If you can, just give your students more time."

Hillary Mastarciyan 34:34

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:34

give them more time.

Hillary Mastarciyan 34:35

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 34:35

literally, that can make such a big difference. That idea of feeling pressured and feeling rushed- is, just not necessary.

Hillary Mastarciyan 34:41

I know it's important to the, to the teaching curriculum in general, or it was because someone created it a long time ago. But, like, timed tests. I always struggled with timed tests. I had an IEP, so like... I think IEPs are all throughout North America, but they're like an- Yeah individual education- Yeah plan where students can, you know, have accommodations or things like that. And, I always had extra time for tests, which was helpful. But if I even think of it, like, from a cognitive psychology perspective, why not give someone a little bit more time to think through what they're doing as opposed to, like, you want the first thing off the top of my head to be written down because I only have, if we break it up mathematically, two minutes to answer this, like short word problem? Like, I think a little bit more time is just-

Vanessa Vakharia 35:24

Yeah

Hillary Mastarciyan 35:24

time in general.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:25

Yeah. Time in general.

Hillary Mastarciyan 35:26

Time.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:26

So tell...

How Hillary went from math anxious to neuroscientist

Vanessa Vakharia 35:27

Okay, I wanna hear, I, like... I can't believe we waited this long into the conversation, but I'm like, how did you, how did you end up here? Like, given your math experience. Like, tell us quickly about your- Yeah math experience. Not quickly, sorry. Like, tell us.

Hillary Mastarciyan 35:37

Well, my math experience was, tough.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:39

We went to the same high school, guys.

Hillary Mastarciyan 35:41

We went to the same high school.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:42

At d- at different times. And- Slightly different times.

Hillary Mastarciyan 35:45

And Vanessa was, again, the only reason I truly believe that I passed math- Oh, that's so- at our high school. It was tough. but my, struggles with math were, like, immediate. Like, when I first started doing math when I was a kid, I had an IEP, like, probably the earliest you could ever have an IEP. Really? I don't know what it was, grade one. I had an IEP. I was in extra help for math, and it was helpful, don't get me wrong. I enjoyed learning in a smaller classroom with a few people, and having a little bit of extra time to do my work, but the curriculum moves so fast and you're learning so many things, and I think this ties nicely back to my point before of, we're learning a lot of abstract things. And you're expected to, like, jam it all into your brain, remember it, learn it very briefly, and then apply it everywhere. Like, I really struggled with, how fast the units moved. and so, from then, I, I immediately was bad at math, and I was, I was bad at math. I wasn't... I was struggling a lot, at all of my schools. And I... I would always have help, but it, it helped me, but it, it could only help you so much if, you're struggling- by, by the way of the system and how fast you're going. Well, it's like things keep moving faster. Do you know what I mean? It's like

Vanessa Vakharia 36:55

you get one thing and then now you're onto the next thing.

Hillary Mastarciyan 37:01

That's always what it felt like. and this is not a promo, like I actually found tutoring here to be so helpful.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:06

We'll use it as a promo.

Hillary Mastarciyan 37:07

No, I really did. it was so helpful. But the problem overall was that we would learn something here with one of your tutors, and I would feel really confident in it. Yeah. And then we would, it would be gone-

Vanessa Vakharia 37:17

Yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 37:18

like by the ti- by the next class. And I was like, "Okay, well I was good at that one thing. I finally learned it." But so yeah, then when I got to university, I didn't have to do any math. And I met my supervisor, and I didn't even know before this that people studied math in this way, like in a cognitive psychology kind of lens. And so I learned from her what she was interested in, and I thought like, "Wow, that really relates to what I'm interested in." I just didn't know that was a pathway for me. and so I kind of went on my merry way Like, I knew someone who was finally doing work that I was interested in and that I felt like I related to. before that, I just, like, didn't know it existed.

Vanessa Vakharia 37:55

But tell us about her, 'cause tell us why you related to her.

Hillary Mastarciyan 37:57

my supervisor is great. She's an assistant professor at Toronto Metropolitan University. Her name is, Maryah Sokolowski, and she loves math as much as we do. I like to call her the Legally Blonde of math.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:10

The Elle Woods of math.

Hillary Mastarciyan 38:11

If you're the Lady Gaga of math, she's the Legally Blonde of math.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:15

I mean, that's a huge compliment to her. Yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 38:17

Like, she's really passionate about it and, finds a way. Like, you would never think, like... Well, you would, and I'm sure the listeners would, but to the average, like, general audience, people are not interested in hearing about math, and they're not interested in hearing about how we learn math. but we have a really great group of students in my lab that, that love learning about math and, like, answering these questions, and so it's just a great environment.

Vanessa Vakharia 38:43

Okay. In every way. So she's, she's fun. She's the Elle Woods- She's fun, yeah of math in that. Why don't you unpack that for a bit?

Hillary Mastarciyan 38:48

I think it's the socialization thing that we talked about before. Yeah. Like, she makes math feel... Like, if you identify as, like, a very girly person, as I think I do, like, math is, like, girly. Learning math is girly, and that's, like, one of the only other places I ever saw that aside from here. Like, math was, like, fun and interesting, and I never felt anxious coming here to learn math 'cause it felt like a safe space. But in the classrooms, I never felt like it was a kind of safe place to learn math. Like, it felt kind of uncomfortable, and I think that's really changing for the new educators, but that was my experience. I always felt like I'm walking into the classroom, and I'm gonna be penalized for not knowing what's going on. And so my supervisor, like, just brings this energy of, like, it's, it's fun. It's not like the stereotypes of math being, like, very bland and logical always and nothing else. Like, logical can be cool.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:45

Yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 39:46

Logical can be exciting.

Vanessa Vakharia 39:47

And logical can be creative.

Hillary Mastarciyan 39:49

Exactly, and, and people don't think of math as a creative thing. Again, like all the, like, myths about math. But she just, like, brings a really different perspective to that,

Vanessa Vakharia 39:58

And I do think it's important what you were saying, what I heard you say, and tell me if I'm wrong, is that idea that like, you had not experienced math as something that could also coincide with femininity.

Hillary Mastarciyan 40:09

Oh, yeah. Definitely

Vanessa Vakharia 40:10

This is what I found in my research too, is like obviously we're talking about, like, very, like a very heteronormative view of this entire situation. And we're talking about, like, historical traditional views. But I do think it merits a discussion of, like math has been seen as so masculine. And when you were to backtrack to, I feel like maybe I interrupted you 'cause I feel like this part got cut off where you were talking about, showing students pictures of what classrooms they would rather be in- and the research that you had synthesized, and how you were saying that, female-identifying students were like, "I don't wanna be in a classroom that feels masculine."

Hillary Mastarciyan 40:44

Yeah. I'll find those papers later, and I'll send them to you- Send them to my mail because I think they'd be interesting to include here. But yeah, girls or, like, people that identify as girls, like, were saying, like, "I don't, I don't feel as interested." It was like the enrollment thing of like a kind of faith of like- The participation yeah. But it was, it was for a study, but it was saying like, w- which one are you more likely to enroll in- To enroll for the next year?

Vanessa Vakharia 41:06

Oh, okay, okay.

Hillary Mastarciyan 41:07

And it, and the ones that, where it was like a more neutral classroom with less of these, like- like you're saying, these like kind of male-dominated-

Vanessa Vakharia 41:17

What kind of stuff was in the pictures? That's what I wanna know

Hillary Mastarciyan 41:19

they're like the typical like, like a green like tube, like a, like a... Like a beaker? You know those science... Yeah. Yeah like the green goo coming out. Yeah. And like science pictures on the wall of astronomy and stuff, and like those have just for so long been like related to men-

Vanessa Vakharia 41:37

Yes

Hillary Mastarciyan 41:37

that the girls were more likely to pick the more neutral classrooms that didn't have... They weren't necessarily all pink and frilly or anything like that. No. They were just less, like I think maybe my best guess would be that the students felt like, "Oh, I've been in those classrooms before, and that's places where I haven't felt like I'm as good at math or as good at science. And so I'm gonna pick the more neutral one, 'cause I can see myself enrolling in that and maybe excel."

Vanessa Vakharia 42:02

It is really... This is so interesting, 'cause this makes me think of the entire, like I don't know if you're on like Teachergram on like Instagram. No. But like there, or like the hashtag teacherlife. that hashtag of classroom decor right now. Like what it looks like. Oh,

Hillary Mastarciyan 42:17

I saw a video this morning. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:19

Did you? It's like so... I, it makes me think, "Oh my God." I've never thought about it this way, but like the new like trendy way to de- decorate your classroom- like especially for elementary and middle, is like it is almost li- like the only thing I can... it's not feminine. I wouldn't say like... exactly. It's not frilly and pink and like traditionally feminine. But I- I think maybe what you're saying by neutral is like, it's like aesthetic.

Hillary Mastarciyan 42:41

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:41

Okay, so I'm just gonna say like it's aesthetic and nice looking. There's different ways of doing it. Yeah. But all I can say is it does not look like a traditional classroom you would've seen in like a old cartoon or movie.

Hillary Mastarciyan 42:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 42:52

And maybe that's it. Maybe it's like... Because I've always been... And it's so funny. Another one of our students, Sarah Marks, she d- ended up doing her entire master's thesis on, the design of educational spaces. And she used The Math Guru, she used the studio as like a prototype of being like how the design of an educational space can like affect-

Hillary Mastarciyan 43:10

Oh, yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 43:10

the students in it, right? Totally. And it w- I, I... Part of it was touching on that. It was this idea of like, we're not just like making things look nice because like we wanna post it on Instagram.

Hillary Mastarciyan 43:19

No.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:19

It's because-

Hillary Mastarciyan 43:20

It's to be comfortable

Vanessa Vakharia 43:21

it, comfortable and safe spaces. Because like traditionally designed spaces are associated with so much math trauma for so many kids.

Hillary Mastarciyan 43:28

Exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:28

Oh my God. Okay. I feel like there's so much we've talked about.

Neuroscience shouldn't be any scarier than math

Vanessa Vakharia 43:31

Is there something you wish teachers understood about the neuroscience of math learning? Is there anything that you're like, "I really want all teachers to know this thing, this fact that I've discovered?"

Hillary Mastarciyan 43:40

I don't have any facts that I've discovered- off the top of my head.

Vanessa Vakharia 43:43

Okay.

Hillary Mastarciyan 43:43

All I will say is neuroscience and education, I want them to be best friends. Yes. And so, like, I want them to be thought of together at times, not completely different. And, like, that's, like, a, a dream as, like, a young student and not, like, someone who's been doing this for that long. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, I, I would love to see neuroscience be more recognized in the classroom, and I would love neuroscientists to try and reach out and make connections with educators more often than they do.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:12

I love that. Well, we're starting that right now. Yeah. I do feel like it can feel, like, intimidating to be like, "Let's learn about neuroscience and, like, cognitive psychology," and that, are we just- are we i- yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 44:23

Well, I would say that's the same intimidation that you feel when doing math, but I think that- You can learn it. Like, it's, it's not impossible. The best way I can explain it is, like, I struggled with math my whole life. I still struggle with math. I don't call myself not a math person, 'cause I don't think, I don't think I'm not a math person, because I study it now.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:45

Yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 44:46

But I don't think... Am I still good at math? If you gave me a math test right now, I probably wouldn't do very well.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:51

Right.

Hillary Mastarciyan 44:51

But, it's the same thing. I learned neuroscience regardless of being good at math. Like, it's possible.

Vanessa Vakharia 44:59

Yeah.

Hillary Mastarciyan 45:00

And so it can be daunting, because it's called neuroscience. Yeah. And I think it comes with that, like, the same way, like, oh, if you have a PhD in math, you're better than everybody else at the party. Yeah. That's not true. I think it's that same daunting thing, but we're gonna find a way to, like, make neuroscience less daunting.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:16

I feel like TikTok.

Hillary Mastarciyan 45:17

Yeah. TikTok helps, for

Vanessa Vakharia 45:19

sure. I feel like there's a lot of good stuff on TikTok. Yeah. Just go over there.

Hillary Mastarciyan 45:21

Definitely.

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 45:22

Okay. We're gonna wrap up with two questions I ask everyone. You have 30 seconds. A timed test, just so you don't- Okay whatever, I'm not timing you.

Hillary Mastarciyan 45:28

No, I, I, I'm long-winded. Go ahead.

Vanessa Vakharia 45:30

Okay. Question number one. Based on, like, your own experience, never mind your research, I mean, you can incorporate your research- Yeah but we know that you're not, like, an education expert. But even, like, your own experience, if you could change one thing about the way math class, math... ah. If you could change one thing about the way a math class is taught, what would it be?

Hillary Mastarciyan 45:47

if you're struggling, I would like to see less aggressive, like, aggressively being penalized by teachers. Okay. I would like teachers... And again, like, I think teachers might be changing over time. I'm talking from almost 10 years ago now. Yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia 46:00

sure.

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:01

but, like, just, again, being kinder to your students that are struggling, because I think some are, but I don't think all are m- as kind as they should

Vanessa Vakharia 46:10

be. Just being kinder and not being-

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:10

Yeah, being kind and making room for people that are struggling.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 46:13

Okay. Love it. Number two, let's say someone was listening to this podcast, they were like, "Love her, she's so cool," whatever, "but no, this doesn't apply to me. I'm not a math person," what would you say?

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:22

I truly believe that anybody can be a math person. That's what I would say.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:26

Oh, my God.

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:27

Period.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:27

Period.

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:28

If I had more time in my day to come back here and learn math properly, I would do it.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:34

Oh, my God, you're invited anytime.

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:36

Thank you. But-

Vanessa Vakharia 46:36

But I also understand you don't have time for that

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:38

you know what I mean? Like, if I had the time- Yes I would want to be more of a math person. Do I have all the time in the world? No, there's only 24 hours in a day. But anyone can be a math person. Yeah. If there's something you wanna learn, don't let something get in the way of it.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:51

Period. The end.

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:53

Period.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:54

Thank you so much.

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:55

Thank you for having me.

Vanessa Vakharia 46:56

This was so fun. Who would've thought this would ever happen?

Hillary Mastarciyan 46:59

I know.

Vanessa Vakharia 47:00

What a blast from the past.

Hillary Mastarciyan 47:01

But it makes me so happy,

Vanessa Vakharia 47:02

so. I'm so happy.

Hillary Mastarciyan 47:03

Thank you for having me.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 47:08

Okay, wow. I am still not over the fact that the kid I tutored when struggling with math anxiety in high school is now getting a PhD in how the brain learns math. I mean, if that's not proof that your math identity at 16 is not your math identity forever, I don't know what is. Two things that really stuck with me after talking to Hillary. First, if you're a teacher who's been quietly terrified that your own math anxiety is harming your students, good news, it's not. Let that guilt go, BB. But if you're a parent, it might be less important what you say about math and more influential what they see you do when math comes up in real life. I say that so often, and I love that that was just reaffirmed. We might not all be teachers of math, but we are all teachers of math attitudes. Now, the gender stuff really stuck with me, too, because even those of us who are deeply aware of this still miss it. The toys, the classroom decor, the messages. It's death by a thousand paper cuts. By the time a girl is in grade six saying, "I'm not a math person", in the moment it's easy to chalk that up to her ability, but too often it's not about the math skills. It's about whether she felt like she belonged in the room in the first place. It's a very different problem, and it needs a very different solution, so I just want us to think about that. I am dying to hear what you guys think. Did the whole, like, parent anxiety versus teacher anxiety thing surprise you as much as it surprised me? What do you think about the gender thing and the toys and the decor? Like, what do you think about it all? Is there anything in this episode that made you go, "Huh, really?" Text the podcast by hitting the link in your show notes that says Text Us. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced by David Kochberg, and the theme music is by our band, Goodnight Sunrise. As always, thank you guys so much for listening, sharing, being a part of the community, all the things. And if you want more Math Therapy, join our Facebook group. We have over 500 amazing members. All you have to do is hit the link in the show notes to join, and I'll see you next week. It's going to be amazing. Have the best weekend. I'm, yeah. Yeah. Okay, bye.