David’s first math ed conference!

David Kochberg 0:00

I have pressed record.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:01

David, welcome to your podcast.

David Kochberg 0:04

Oh, this is finally acknowledged- that I own the rights to... Actually, that's not true. We have a contract. Uh-

Vanessa Vakharia 0:11

Okay, guys

David Kochberg 0:11

welcome back, everyone. We're good. Well, hey, Vanessa, welcome back to Math Therapy- We- your own podcast

Vanessa Vakharia 0:17

we have 20 minutes to record this episode.

David Kochberg 0:18

Start the clock.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:20

And I thought, we thought- Yeah it was actually David's idea- Oh it would be really fun, because for those of you who do not know, David went to his very first NCTM and NCSM. Now, you might be like, "What are you talking about?" National Council of Teachers of Mathematics and National Council of Supervisors of Mathematics. Wow, that's a mouthful. The big conferences were last week, and it is, like, a big deal in the math world. It is, like, a week of raging hard about math.

David Kochberg 0:47

Sessions. Raging hard sessions? I don't know, why did you say those words?

Vanessa Vakharia 0:53

Well, it's a lot, and I brought David along because I forced him, actually, I voluntold him, to submit a proposal for NCTM last year, because I needed someone else to submit a s- session, because you're only allowed to submit one, and because I wanted to do a session that was a live recording of the Math Therapy Podcast with NCTM program director Kristopher Childs, and I thought it would be really cool if David was there. But then, when he got accepted, I was like, "Why don't you just come for the whole week so you can see what this whole world is about?" So we are going to interview David about his first week at NCTM. David.

David Kochberg 1:28

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:28

First initial thoughts.

David Kochberg 1:30

My initial thoughts are that I am still exhausted. We've been back a couple days, and actually, we've just gone straight back to work, and we never stopped working. But so I am exhausted. Yeah, I'm tired. I'm very tired. I'm very overtired.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:41

Okay, great. Let me ask some directed questions.

David Kochberg 1:43

Please.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:44

Okay, question number one let's start with this. How did it feel to see so many people in real life for the first time ever that we have had on the podcast? Who surprised you? Who looked different in person? Like, what, what were your, what, who did you like seeing the best? Like, give me some of that.

David Kochberg 2:00

That was my favorite-

Vanessa Vakharia 2:01

Let's gossip at least about math educators.

David Kochberg 2:03

Oh.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:03

Give me some goss.

David Kochberg 2:05

Is that really what you wanna do here? You wanna name names? Oh my God, fuck. You didn't, but you just asked me two different questions at once.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:12

I have 13 minutes left.

David Kochberg 2:13

But this is your fault. You're supposed to be the expert interviewer.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:16

I am.

David Kochberg 2:17

Yeah, but you started with one question, then you pivoted your own question. So I will just answer the first question Eh, which I forget what it was now. Oh. No, it was great to see, to actually meet all of these people It was a lot of fun to actually meet people in real life, to put faces to names.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:33

Who surprised you?

David Kochberg 2:34

Sur- Define surprise. Like in what they look like?

Vanessa Vakharia 2:37

Literally just, just generally who surprised you in any way? Like, you were like, "Oh."

David Kochberg 2:42

Well, again, I don't wanna name names in a, in a, and make people feel uncomfortable. But I'll say there are some people who I was surprised by their height.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:56

Like, someone was taller than you expected.

David Kochberg 2:59

And the opposite.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:00

And someone was shorter.

David Kochberg 3:01

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:01

And- We'll let you text the podcast- And- with your guess as to who he's talking about. Yeah. Next question.

Seeing Jo Boaler speak

Vanessa Vakharia 3:07

Did you go to any sessions?

David Kochberg 3:09

I went to, you made me go to the first one, and it's not that I didn't wanna go, it's just I was tired, but, 'cause it's, 'cause I'm not used to the, all of the early mornings that you math educators do. But yes. Yeah. We went to see Jo Boaler's session.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:22

On how, what did you think having hung out with Jo Boaler? Yeah. 'Cause we hung out with her in Bali.

David Kochberg 3:28

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:28

Right? And- We

David Kochberg 3:28

helped her recuperate from food poisoning.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:30

We did. A year ago. Yeah. And that was the only other time you met her. How did it feel seeing her speak?

David Kochberg 3:36

It was fun. It was, uh, it w- yeah, it was interesting to see her in her element, and she talked about a bunch of the stuff that she had talked about on our podcast back at the height of all of the, uh, the vitriol that she was getting. Um, so it was nice to hear her talk in person to a live room about some of that stuff she's gone through.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:00

Okay, remember that a lot of the people listening were not at NCTM, so they don't act- you're gonna have to be more specific. What did she talk about?

David Kochberg 4:06

Well, they could go back in the archives and listen to the, uh, past episode where Jo discussed how there has been so much backlash to her work in trying to change the California standards for math education. Mm-hmm. And there's been a lot of pushback and then doxing of her own personal information and-

Vanessa Vakharia 4:28

Which is when someone leaks an address, right?

David Kochberg 4:31

Good work, i- interviewer, yes. Okay. Excellent hosting. And then, uh, and then she was, like, suddenly Tu- Tucker Carlson was talking about her on Fox News, and, like, she became this, like, enemy of the right wing, uh, all because she wants to try some different ways to teach math.

Experiencing BTC IRL

Vanessa Vakharia 4:47

Okay, so after Jo Boaler's session, I insisted that you go to your very first BTC live session.

David Kochberg 4:53

That is true. And for those of you who don't know what BTC is, all maybe one of you, uh, yes, Building Thinking Classrooms. So I did get to meet and spend time with the legend Peter Liljedahl.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:07

And?

David Kochberg 5:08

And, uh, and we talked, you know, mostly about sports. That's not true. Actually, no, we talked about music. He was asking questions about our band and touring and stuff.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:17

Yeah, you talked about music. Great. Um- And then you went to, you saw-

David Kochberg 5:20

And then, but yeah, so then Vanessa was like, "You gotta go to see one of these things in action." Because it's true, I hear you and all your guests and everyone in math ed constantly talking about whiteboards this, and vertical non-permanence, or I guess the same thing. But- Uh, but yeah, talking about- randomly selecting through groups of three and all this stuff, and I'm like, "How big a deal is all of this?" Right. How could... That's not actually what I thought, but yeah, and I was like-

Vanessa Vakharia 5:41

But it would make sense if you did think that.

David Kochberg 5:42

No, no. I- It sounded cool, but then to actually, to experience it, it was really cool. It was a session run by him and then two people from InnoVamat?

Vanessa Vakharia 5:51

Yep.

David Kochberg 5:52

Yeah, and then, from Spain. And so the three of them kind of led it as a group, a group of three as it happens. So they divided us into groups of three using a deck of cards.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:02

Did you like it?

David Kochberg 6:03

Randomly. I did like it. It was, and, uh, it was fun. It was like an exercise you're, you're trying to find how many... You get nine dots, in a square grid, and then the, the challenge was find as many different tetrahedral shapes. Is that the four sides? I, uh, I was digging back-

Vanessa Vakharia 6:22

Quadrilateral?

David Kochberg 6:23

Quadrilateral. So yeah, we had to find as many different shapes by connecting the ver- the, the dots as vertices. And then it was just little stuff like the way he set the table for it all of making everyone... Yeah, there was, like, little rules he was saying of there's one marker per whiteboard, and then he's like, "Everyone make sure to, like, share the marker," and also, like, sometimes you can just put the cap on the marker for a little bit. Like, a, the marker doesn't always have to be used. Like, sometimes you put a cap on, and then that's almost, like, an indicator that everyone can just do some thinking as opposed to feeling like you constantly have to be drawing something in order to be active.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:07

Oh my God.

David Kochberg 7:08

And- And there was also a cool thing where just the way it started was he said, "The first thing you gotta do is just introducing each other." And it was one person asks the other, so there's three of you, so, like, uh, let's say it's you, me, and Peter. I would ask you your name, and then ask you if you like pancakes or waffles. Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:29

Yeah.

David Kochberg 7:29

That's what you get. And I was like, "Well, how is this gonna come into play later on?"

Vanessa Vakharia 7:31

And the gluten in both of those things.

David Kochberg 7:33

Spoil- that's true. Spoiler alert, it didn't come into play. It was just like, "Oh, this is a way to, like, introduce you to each other and get to know some random fact about each other." And it, like, personalized. So you know these three people, n- none of us had ever met before, but then I write on the whiteboard at the top, Vanessa, pancakes. And then you would ask Peter his name, and then you would write Peter, waffles. And then so the three of us, it was interesting because it seems frivolous, but then in practice, while we're going through this whole exercise, obviously I'm gonna forget one of the names. I don't have to, like, ask their name again. I don't have to look at their badge awkwardly to be like, "Oh, what was their..." Like, now all our names are just up there on the board. It's very clever, very practical.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:15

It also shows you how these micro moves really are so important and can make such a big difference, right? It doesn't have to be this whole big thing, just something as simple as that, that really takes no... it takes, what, 10 seconds of extra time-

David Kochberg 8:27

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 8:27

can really change the culture of a classroom. Great. Okay, so you went to BTC.

David's feedback on Vanessa's session

Vanessa Vakharia 8:31

Then you actually went to my sessions.

David Kochberg 8:33

I did.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:33

Let's talk about me.

David Kochberg 8:34

And you had many of them.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:36

Let's talk about me. What about, what surprised you about my sessions? 'Cause you've never seen me speak. I only did one solo session, by the way, and then I did one with Robert Kaplinsky, I did one with Peder Liljedahl, I did another one with Lauren Keeling and Deborah Peart, and I did an interview with Christopher Child. So let's talk about my solo session. What's one thing that surprised you?

David Kochberg 8:54

One thing that surprised me.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:56

That you didn't expect

David Kochberg 8:59

Um

Vanessa Vakharia 8:59

It doesn't have to be nice.

David Kochberg 9:02

Hoo-hoo, all right. Uh, I didn't... I guess I should have, but I like, I didn't expect how- much of a, like, tornado- Oh my you would be still- in a su- such a sustained manner. 'Cause you were like ju- you, you were like hopping up on chairs. Every time you'd jump on a chair, I was like, "Oh, this is the one. This is- This is the one that's gonna end it all." But no, you never, you never fell down. Right. You never twisted an ankle. It was impressive. And so yeah, you're just like jumping up on chairs. You're literally running up and down aisles. Well,

Vanessa Vakharia 9:43

I had lots of-

David Kochberg 9:44

You got a wor- serious work. It was like a- Mm HIIT training.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:47

Right.

David Kochberg 9:48

Uh, but yeah, I, I didn't think it was going to be so hyperactive, but- Hyperactive? Yeah, but, uh, but, but it worked anyway. It's not like I was surprised. I just kind of, I guess, envisioned it was like, oh, in a, an academic setting, maybe it'll be, maybe you'll be like a little bit more focused. But no. You, you were basically as you were when you're playing a show with our band-

Vanessa Vakharia 10:15

I was gonna say-

David Kochberg 10:16

on a big stage. You're like running around-

Vanessa Vakharia 10:18

Right

David Kochberg 10:18

as if you are the lead singer in a band because you basically are. It's just this, this time there was no band. It was just you.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:24

Yeah. It is interesting that you're scared of me jumping on the chairs when we think about us performing, I'm jumping on everything.

David Kochberg 10:30

Yeah, but remember how you like, the few times now where we'd get up on a, on a bar to like shred solos and you're like, "I can't do it. I'm afraid of heights."

Vanessa Vakharia 10:38

It's true, but a chair is different. Okay, great. So you didn't think I'd be as chaotic as I was. Great. I was. Let's move along here because we now have four minutes.

David Kochberg 10:46

Yeah. I'll also say a lovely thing, which was that it was delightful to see after each of your talks, not just your solo talk, but your talk with all the others, lines around some corners. They're like corners of seats. But there was lines of people coming to say hi to you after and talk about how much your work means to them and how it ac- And some people who were also observing how much energy you were expending, and they were like Didn't you tell me someone, some woman gave, like, wanted to give you some

Vanessa Vakharia 11:14

of her energy? This woman literally came up to me after that solo talk that you said was a tornado. And everyone was waiting in line to talk to me and to get bracelets. It was so kind of everyone to be so patient. And then th- this woman put her hands on my shoulders and was like, "You've just given us so much energy. Let me give you some." And she just put her hands on my shoulders and closed her eyes, and I closed my, my eyes, and then we just took a deep breath together, and she just, like, gave me literal energy. It was like co-regulation in action. It was so kind, and I honestly really truly needed it. Yeah. I thought I was maybe gonna hyperventilate.

David Kochberg 11:45

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 11:45

I didn't feel well, actually. I'd been expending a lot of energy throughout the week. Yes. And just those conference centers, it's, it's, it takes... Like, what was your step count? Well, the

David Kochberg 11:54

NCTM conference, it was at the, it was at, what was it, the Colorado Conference Center? Yes. Or Convention Center or whatever. That was, like, a massive, massive- I'm

Vanessa Vakharia 12:03

gonna open up my

David Kochberg 12:03

stuff now. facility.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:04

It was, it's massive. Yeah. So you're, like, trying to get places, and

David Kochberg 12:07

it really- Yeah, it would take, like, 10 to 15 minutes to walk from one end of where the entrance was to where your actual talks were.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:14

100%. By the

David Kochberg 12:15

way, nobody cares about this.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:16

I'm actually very curious- So I'm not even gonna- what my step count was. Okay. No. But the point is, you're just expending a lot of energy.

Finding community in math education

Vanessa Vakharia 12:21

You also mentioned how nice everyone was. Hm,

David Kochberg 12:24

yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:24

Talk to us about that.

David Kochberg 12:26

Oh. Well, I mean, everyone was nice. Um, it was, it, yeah, it just, it genuinely was fun to meet all of these people whom I've ever either, like, met through the podcast or hear you listening to their voice notes on 1.5 speed or hear, or chat with them when you're on the phone with them or something. And, like, I know that you have such a strong, supportive community in math ed, and through all of this I've learned about all of the work that everyone does. And I know that, like, everyone's got different approaches and just like in any, any industry, there's, like, drama and tea. And, but, like, every- but everyone has, yeah, like, everyone's got their own specialty, and sometimes there's gonna be disagreements. But on the whole, like, you're all there because you care about community and you care about kids, and you care about making math education better in whatever ways you each feel like you can contribute. And yeah, the whole takeaway was just community. It was great to just see How much community there is. It was fun. Yeah. It was great.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:36

And just, like, how amazing was it? I think for you, it was really nice, guys, 'cause I told you, I made David be the lead speaker on my, uh, interview with Dr. Kristopher Childs, but then also told him I wasn't gonna let him speak at all.

David Kochberg 13:46

Facts.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:47

But then he made such a lovely intro, and what was so cool, I... were you surprised by how many people showed up to that session who actually listen to the podcast?

David Kochberg 13:55

Uh, no.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:57

Like, how cool was that for you to see?

David Kochberg 13:58

I, I'm, I'm not s- I'm not saying no in like an, uh, in, to just be difficult way. Like, I suspected a lot of people come to your pod- come to your, your talks as, like, followers and listeners of the podcast. But yes, it, it for sure was nice. That was nice for me, because, like, you live in this world, and I'm the behind-the-scenes guy making the audio work and publishing it, and then, yeah, like, I can see insights into who's listening and feedback that we get. But to actually see people put their hands up and be like, "Yeah, we listen to this podcast all the time," it, that's always validating to know that all the work that we put into making the podcast is actually worthwhile, that people actually do listen to it. And-

Vanessa Vakharia 14:41

It kinda feels like, as a band, when we see our Spotify streams. Yeah. And you're like, "Okay, I guess random people are listening," but there's no faces. Like, we just see the number being like-

David Kochberg 14:49

Yeah

Vanessa Vakharia 14:49

you know, like, this many people are listening to the thing, as opposed to when we go to a show and the people are actually there who listen to our music.

David Kochberg 14:55

Totally.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:56

And David made such a nice announcement, and if you weren't there and didn't hear it, I almost... Oh, my God, we, we recor- it's probably recorded.

David Kochberg 15:03

It is.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:04

I feel like it was such a nice message to everyone who listens to the podcast of just a thank you, and it was really... David was really nervous. It was so cute. Like, we, like, opened for Bon Jovi and Alanis Morissette, and he's been singing on stage. Yeah. But speaking to a room of math educators, his room was ac- or his voice was actually shaking.

David Kochberg 15:20

Yeah, it was a little, well, it's not, I, yeah, out of, out of practice in terms of public speaking- But

Vanessa Vakharia 15:24

you did great in

David Kochberg 15:25

that context forum.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:25

And it was such a nice welcoming message that I want all of you guys to hear. I want everyone to hear who listens. Yeah. Thank you guys for listening, and thank you for all the work you do that makes this matter. Like, we're here on the podcast, and I love doing that, but you guys are out there doing the work every single day with students, with your friends, with your best friend, with your barista, with students' parents. Like, you guys are the ones out there actually changing math culture. Like, you're doing it. You're changing people's attitudes around math. You're providing those positive math experiences. So thank you guys so, so, so much for doing what you do and for listening. We have one minute left.

David Kochberg 16:00

Oh, wow, okay, great.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:01

Um, I, I'm almost-

David Kochberg 16:03

Less for me to edit.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:04

I'm almost like-

David Kochberg 16:05

how do you wanna wrap this up, Vanessa? Then you can just say goodbye, which you're really good at

Vanessa Vakharia 16:10

No, but I feel like there's so much more to talk about

David Kochberg 16:12

Oh. Well, we could do, do another one of these another time

Vanessa Vakharia 16:15

One other th- one thing I wanna say that I thought was so cool, you can edit this in, is all the people, not just the listeners we met, but there was a woman who showed up. Kari Zitar was there. We've had her, we read out her LinkedIn post on the podcast before. It was cool to meet her in person. I've never actually met her in real life. Um, Jeffrey Ringer was there. Every single week we drop an episode, he does an incredible LinkedIn post recapping it, adding his thoughts. He was there. It was so cool to meet him. There was a teacher there who showed up in the Math is Brat shirt that she bought from my merch store. Like, there was somebody there who had actually contributed to the book, Math Therapy, and I'd never met her. She had sent me two of, we're gonna put this in the show notes what page you can find this on. She had sent me some student work that I included in the book, and I'd never met her. I got to meet her in person. Okay, I've got one minute till my Zoom meeting.

David Kochberg 17:00

Oh, my God.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:01

Thank you so much for being here, David. You're such an incredible guest.

David Kochberg 17:03

Oh, wow. Thank you.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:04

Um, anything, final word. I actually have 30 seconds. Any final words?

David Kochberg 17:09

This seems like some unnecessary pressure we've placed upon ourselves.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:13

Yeah. Should we finish it after this? Should we just do a five-minute wrap up?

David Kochberg 17:17

We don't have time for that.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:17

Okay. David-

David Kochberg 17:20

Vanessa

Vanessa Vakharia 17:20

Welcome to the Math Ed community.

David Kochberg 17:22

It's a pleasure to be here.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:24

Thank you so much for being there, and I also want everyone to know that David stayed up until 2:30 in the morning on the Friday night at NCTM 'cause he went to sing karaoke.

David Kochberg 17:32

And I crushed it. See you next week.