SPEAKER_00 0:02

Hi, I'm Vanessa Viccaria, aka the Math Girl, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. When I was in grade 11, I failed math not once, but twice, because I was told that I just wasn't a math person. Thanks to a math intervention in the form of an amazing teacher, I ended up scoring 99% in grade 12 math. And now I run the Math Guru, my very own math tutoring studio in Toronto. I started math therapy to take this conversation global. And I like to think of it as not just a podcast, but a movement. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry. No calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Hey, hey, hey, and welcome to this week's episode of Math Therapy. So this week is a special one because I'm interviewing one of my legit icons and mentors, Dr. Imogen Co. She was the founding dean of the Faculty of Science at Toronto's Bryerson University from 2012 to 2018, and she's currently a professor of chemistry and biology. Most importantly, though, she is internationally recognized as a Canadian thought leader in the area of equity, diversity, and inclusion in STEM, which stands for Science, Technology, Engineering, and Math. So, what does all of that mean? It means that she advocates globally for equality in STEM fields and basically calls policymakers, corporations, and media on their bullshit, especially when it comes to the white male privilege that pervades these fields. You should probably know that her and I decided that we're like the Arlene Dickinson and Jan Ardenus staff. Obviously, I'm Jan in case you were wondering. And after listening to this episode, I kind of dare you to disagree. So, ready to hear us channel our inner dragons then, but like for math? Cool, because I don't even really know what that means, but whatever, it sounded fierce as fuck, so I'm gonna go with it. Let's do this. Welcome to the podcast! Thank you. It's great to be here. I'd like to just start by knowing a little more about like your history with math and science. Like, bring me back to like little Imogen. Little Imogen. Well, little Imogen was adorable.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Uh little Imogen grew up outside of Cambridge in the UK, as you can tell from my accent. And I loved science. Um, but we also were raised with a sense that uh everybody should have the chance to do those kinds of things that they loved. So I kind of have this dual, I had this kind of dual pathway of wanting the world to be fairer and at the same time pursuing my love of science. So that's why I have this sense that um not everybody has had the chance to get to do what I wanted, what I've been able to do, and and and that's just not right. When I was seven, I have a very strong memory of my little co-ed class, my little primary school just outside of Cambridge, um, the girls being rounded up and sent off to sewing lessons, and the boys being rounded up and sent off to I think it was woodworking, I don't know, because I didn't get to get to go. And I just thought that doesn't make any sense. And it wasn't a gender thing, it was just like it could be short people and tall people, or it could have been people with green eyes and brown eyes. It just like that doesn't make any sense why you would divide up people and then have them do things on the basis of some arbitrary characteristics. So so I think from a really early age I was really aware that people made judgments about people on the basis of gender or so.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

Did did you ever like say anything when you were younger?

SPEAKER_01 3:22

Or do you remember like did you ever I mean I I think I was aware of it and I think I spoke to things that were I can remember watching sports with my dad because he was a varsity athlete and the Olympics and watching um uh pole vaulting and thinking, whoa, that looks really exotic and like a little bit dangerous and stuff, but girls don't do it, and and like why is that? And so I I mean I think I raised it as like a well that's weird, why isn't that happening? So so I think it was more like a oh that's weird. Like I would I would see it and comment on it, and then people would have not have good answers, and then I would say, Well, that's not a good answer, you know? So it kind of evolved.

SPEAKER_00 3:57

So what how did this start for you actually becoming like on your path to being a thought leader? Like how how did you start this work? Like, do you kind of remember how you got into it?

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Well, so I think I've always been one of those people that would speak up shocker. Yeah, I know. It's really, it's really and I I I don't quite somebody else called me a thought leader and somebody else wrote that. Well, I'm gonna call you a thought. Yeah, so I think okay, you know, if that works for the for people. So I was one so I think like I was the student rep on the you know, they needed a departmental committee, and I would be the student rep. So I would speak up, and then people would ask me to stand for positions because I would speak to things that they were afraid to raise and that kind of stuff. So um, so I would so I think I became a bit of a sort of a um representative who would speak to issues. I would speak to issues around sexism in science and people would um you know make comments. I think I I did that. I would I was a sort of a known um you know shit to um we can use thought instead of thought later. Yeah, okay, well, depending on the audience, it might be appropriate. Um so you know, then so I uh I pursued a career in science. I I became a professor, I became the chair of the department, and I became an associate dean because I would speak to issues around strategy and and leadership and that kind of stuff. So that that was part of it, and then that gave me a platform to be able also to speak to discrimination and that kind of stuff. And then um, and then when I became a dean, then that was a very, you know, a very clear platform, also at an institution that had a very explicit mission to sort of social justice. So it was kind of a good combination there.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

Well, one of the coolest things about you, I think, is that like you really don't give a fuck. Like if people are gonna be unhappy with what you say, and I think that's really, really hard. Um, I know it's hard for me to do. So I don't feel like you feel that way at all, or do you? Like, is that something that ever holds you back? Or like, and if not, how do you get past that?

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Well, so no, I think it's true, but I have huge privilege. I have like tons and tons of privilege. Like, I'm so privileged. Um I am so privileged, which means I have responsibility, and I'm privileged that I and I can say those things because I'm safe, right? I am not gonna lose my job. I have tenure, I have a very good job, I have a very um secure position, um, I'm and I have so much privilege um and a platform and security behind me. I have an institution. I'm not gonna get fired for saying what I what I say. I'm also far enough along in my career, so there is, you know, there are disadvantages to being a woman that gets older. You know, yeah, you have five five minutes where you're actually the right fit for the age, you know. Like you first of all you're you're you're too young and you don't have enough proven track record, and then you know, and then and then there's five minutes and then you're then you're past it and they're looking for somebody who's younger and has more potential, you know. Um so I'm I'm far enough along in my career that I don't really have to worry about um, you know, other people impacting my career. If I wanted to go on and I don't know, if I wanted to go on and do something, I don't know, like be a president or something, maybe. Oh my god, I would vote for you. No, no, but no, but I no, but I but I don't want to do that.

SPEAKER_00 7:05

So I'm safe. You're basically like Oprah and everyone's like begging her to run for president. She's like, fuck no.

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yeah, no, I don't because I wouldn't be able to say the things that that need to be said. Right. So in all the the whole system needs people who will say what needs to be said. And I've I've heard that a lot from people that I say things that other people would like to say, but they're not safe to do it. So because I have privilege, I have responsibility. Like I I have no choice, really. I mean, I could, but it would be cowardly of me.

SPEAKER_00 7:33

So uh what can you think of a time before and after at some point that weren't those five minutes that you speak of, when, like, was there a time when you were uncomfortable to call stuff out? Or did you ever like kind of like not say something you thought because you were scared? Or like, did you do it and were there repercussions? Like any of these things. I'm actually curious about because I feel like I deal with so many young people, not just young people, so many people who are like, This thing happened to me, how would you deal with it? And I'm always like, oh my god, I don't know. It's not like right, and you don't want to give them the wrong information because it's true. Like, you know what I think of? I think of all those self-help books right now that are like, you can do it. You know what? Everyone just quit your job and follow your dreams, and you're like, you actually, that's very irresponsible from your position of privilege to be giving the mass audience that advice because not everyone is safe to do that. That's right. Yeah. So, like, did you ever feel like that at a point in time?

SPEAKER_01 8:25

I so yeah, I think I was, I mean, I had totally imposter syndrome. Um total, I mean, I I really struggled with self-esteem hugely. Like, you know, with my weight issues, with my appearance, with my um, you know, I was in abusive relationships for a long time. Um, so all of those kinds of things I think added to um a sense of, yeah, of pretty low self-worth. You know, the things that have happened to to me in my life outside of my work have been way more serious and impactful than my work. Like there isn't anything anybody can say about me from the work perspective or this work around EDI and STEM that is can be anywhere near as damaging and as as as bad as what happened to me in my personal life. Um so in that sense, I'm pretty calibrated in the sense of what is my perspective on this situation, and somebody says something, and some some somebody says something that might hurt me or might like I'm it might impact me. It can't be as bad as some of the things that are have been really bad that are calibrated my life, which are which are which are human things. They're like, you know, the death of my father, or you know, the the the um having to take emergency custody of my kids, you know, when they were little, all those kinds of things. So that's bad, you know, that's hurtful, that's impactful. So this here, yeah, bring it on. Like, you know, tell say all those things that you want to say about this work and how it's social engineering and how it's my personal agenda and I'm a feminazi and all this kind of stuff. And it's like okay, you know, because because in the grand scheme of things, that's actually like it's kind of like little buzzy mosquitoes. So when I look at other people and I I think, wow, you know, we have to look at we have to really understand people's humanity and what are the things that really, really are hurtful and and and and impact people negatively. And um, you know, it's often the things that are affect them personally, and how can we create uh cultures and contexts that are just kinder and more humane, which is one of the things that I really want us to do in science and and STEM is like, why does chemistry have to be such a mean profession? Like, why do chem why is it so mean? Like, and then then they're proud of their meanness, and you know, why do we have engineering frosh week? Why do we have this weird culture where where this kind of humiliation culture? Like, where did that come from? Why you know why do we do that?

SPEAKER_00 10:43

You know, so deconstructive. This is so interesting. I literally have like 30 things to say. So, number one, I just watched the Taylor Swift documentary. Yes, me too. Um, I kind of feel like you're Tay Tay right now. Because this idea of like, right, she talks about how you you hear about all those celebrities, yeah, right, and they say something that nobody likes, right? And then we have cancel culture, so everyone's like, well, fuck this, we're not listening to this celebrity anymore. But wait, it's so interesting because she talks about how like her whole life has been tied to approval and self-worth. Yes. So, like, what do you right?

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Because like the fact that you're not thinking that, is it just that like I thought so, I mean, I think the approval piece, I think that's totally, I I really hugely yes, gendered. I think what was really interesting for for that documentary was watching a young woman on her journey to finding her voice. Right. That's what it I came away with is that you know, she describes and demonstrates a level of self-awareness that grows and she becomes more and more self-aware. She begins to recognize how gendered and how stereotyped and how controlled she is, in in every sense, her image and what the expectations are of her, and then her awareness grows of herself, and then she starts to find her voice and she starts to challenge some of those things.

SPEAKER_00 11:55

And kind of similar to you in a way of being like, I she recognizes that she's in this position of privilege in a way, right? Of being like, I need to do something with it. Right.

SPEAKER_01 12:03

Yes. I found it quite kind of uplifting because she's there's a person finding their voice, and that's what I'm you know, that's something that I often will uh a message I'll often give out is uh you have a and I've said this often when particularly talking to groups of young women, um, you have a voice, you have a right to use that voice, and most importantly, you have a right to have other people shut the fuck up and listen to what you have to say. So it's it's not just enough to have a voice and use a voice, you need to have the space, right? Somebody needs to give you the space and time uh for you to actually uh fill that space with your voice. And I think that's sometimes something that is missing. It's like yes, we can empower and encourage and and you know build confidence, but other people are gonna have to share the space, and that means that you know, white men with privilege, white straight middle class men with privilege often were gonna have to share the space, they're gonna have to make some room, or boys are gonna have to make some room, they're gonna have to learn to share the space with everybody and not just completely dominate.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

So, okay, can I ask, like, how do you feel like we're doing with that? And I ask because this is not, I mean, this just happened to me this weekend and it happens to me all the time. And it literally is the thing. This is like one of those things where I feel like I have messaged you and been like, what do I do about this? Where somebody has said to me, Well, like, I don't think there's really an issue anymore. If you look around, um, I I hear this a lot, you know, more than half of our teaching staff, more than half of our math and science teachers are female now, and like, you know, there are a lot more female scientists, and like, you know, I hear this all the time. Oh, there's no problem anymore.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Right. What's your well, so I'm a scientist, so I go back to data and evidence. Right, you know, so I so I say, well, I know it feels like that or it seems like that, but actually the reality is that's not the case. And just the same way that we know the earth is round and that vaccinations are good for us and help prevent, you know, pre disease that could otherwise kill people, we go back to the data and the evidence and we look and we can see that there still is a problem. And we can still see that we are missing talent, that we're missing um ability, and we need to be leveraging that. So I get that people see that or they may feel that, but that doesn't make it real.

SPEAKER_00 14:23

So what would you say, like just because you know, um, I know a lot of our listeners are are people that have anxiety around math or around science, and specifically when you dig down anxiety about the fact that they just don't belong, right? Right. What would you say um to somebody who said, well, maybe like let's just use girls because a lot of my work is around gender. So I talk about girls a lot. Maybe girls just aren't interested in being engineers. Like the opportunity is there, but maybe they're just not interested.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

So again, I come back to um this huge body of evidence and data that we have that says that that's not the case. So I, you know, and and we need to be having that uncomfortable conversation that says, you know what, parents, uh, teachers, uh, that is not the case. We don't have ev, there's no evidence for that, and we need to be thinking about um what is actually going on. And so we know that babies are born with natural curiosity. That's what their job is. They're supposed to be figuring out how the world around them works. But we can tell from the age of well, we can tell from studies on how parents or adults interact with babies that even before babies can walk, they are gender stereotyping babies in terms of giving babies uh, you know, girls. Or gender reveal parties. Gender reveal parties are horrible. Like it's still a thing. It's a huge thing. Yeah. You know, if you go to other parts, I think that drives me nuts is that we think we think that our experience is like the only experience, right? So we think that Like each of us as individuals. Yeah, or us as uh, you know, let's say Canada. So we you know, so if and if you go to other parts of the world, we don't that you don't see um fewer girls in engineering. So what is it? Is it that girls in engineering Like give me one example, like one country. Um the Middle East or Eastern Europe, right? Now, the girls and boys that you will see in in engineering and physics in those countries may come from a different socioeconomic sector. So poor girls and poor boys may not be making it into those areas of those disciplines. I mean, the same in Korea and you know other other parts of the world. So so what is it? Is it particularly that Canadian girls just you know don't get it, or is it that somehow um, you know, Turkish girls are um incredibly interested in in um in science and engineering? So and if it is that, then one of the interpretations of that is that there's something that we do culturally, right? Because there are cultural differences, not that it's a girl thing, because girls around the world are showing very different kinds of patterns of engagement. So if it's a cultural thing, then um what is the cultural thing that we're doing that's disenfranchising girls and disenfranchising boys? Because we're doing it to all of them, we're doing it to kids. So, um, and you know, if you work with uh young people and if you work with um, so I work with First Robotics, um, so that's high school competitive robotics. And if you talk to girls, um they're they're exhausted from continually having to push back against the gender stereotypes and continually having to push back against being told that actually no, it's not this is not something for girls, or why are you doing this, or maybe you can design the t-shirts rather than do the coding, you know, that kind of thing. And um, so we know that there's tons of examples and we have tons of studies, people have studied this to death that that this idea that they're not interested or they're not capable is just it's just rubbish.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

So it's so crazy because like I, you know, we both like obviously do this work and are in this space, and I there is most of the days I'm like, whatever, I don't give a fuck what people think about me, like I'm so excited to prove them wrong, la la la. But then other days I'm actually like I'm I just want to stay in bed. Like I'm like it it's I think that people really mitigate the fact that um it is actually so tiring. And I think, I mean, I'm in a a rock band and B, I work in STEM. So on basically all fronts of my life, it is like the most sexist thing. Like, you know, you know, everyone's it's a constant like having to prove. And I think that's one thing people don't understand is like they're like, well, I don't get like what? Are you so tired? Like you have to constantly tell people you belong. And I'm like, no, actually, it's not that people are sexist to my face because it's 2020 and that's actually not how it happens for the most part anymore. But anytime I get up and play an instrument, I have the additional stress of being like, if I fuck up, people are going to say, see, girls don't believe in rock and roll or don't belong in rock and roll. They're not gonna say she sex. I'm like standing up here representing my entire like race and gender. Oops, um got really pissed off their breaking shit. No, but and you know, if I have to calculate a tip at a dinner for friends, I have the pressure of being like, I'm you're carrying the whole weight. So like I think it would be really nice to for that to be acknowledged. I think whenever we talk about um, you know, when when, and it's usually guys, obviously, who say to me, like, well, like, you know what I mean? Like, I think this whole like me too thing has gone too far, or I think this whole like sexism thing has gone too far. I'm like, that this idea of like, do you know how tiring it is to be like actually scared when I walk home at night? You're are you tired? Like when you do that? No, like do you get home with like your heart stops racing for two seconds? Like, you know what I mean? Like that additional actual physiological response that you get in all of these situations that men don't have. Yeah. Not to take this like all, you know, to a whole different stratosphere, but I think it's all one and the same, right? Like it actually is really, really tiring to constantly feel like you're fighting. And I've had a lot of girls say, so to the argument of like, hey, maybe girls just aren't interested in engineering or whatever, you know, a lot of the research shows that yes, they're interested. And it's often in these programs or once in the field that they're finally like, fuck it. Yeah, you know what? Actually, going to work every day is super fucking stressful and it is tiring. So, what are things that that people can do in those environments, like in engineering programs, or once they actually get to feel the fields? You know, we talk a lot, I know you don't do a lot of work around changing culture.

SPEAKER_01 20:14

Right. Like what is what's some of the things that we're talking about. So I mean I think I think one of the things that that really we have to shift, and I it it drives me nuts that we still seem to have be having this conversation around well, if we have more science camps for little girls, that'll help, you know, that'll make a difference. And and the K-12 uh landscape is really crowded in Canada, at least it isn't in the GTA. So there's tons and tons of initiatives for girls in STEM, um, and there's nothing wrong with that. That's great, and it builds confidence and it builds skills and and competences that I think are really useful. But all of that is not gonna make a difference, and the data and evidence and scholarship shows it doesn't make a difference in the absence of also addressing culture and context.

SPEAKER_00 20:54

So it's okay. Yes, can we like just take that in? Yeah, great, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:58

So so that is a message that I am continually now trying to push out. Very um, I I I used to try and be kind of subtle about it because I didn't same thing. I didn't want to offend people, and I and people people feel very warm and fuzzy, and they feel people want to do good works and they want to donate to science counts for little girls because it makes them feel good and it checks the corporate social responsibility box, and it doesn't require them to do any work. They do not have to do any work on themselves. So that's so it's easy, right? So it and it makes people feel warm and fuzzy because the the people having to do the work are these girls apparently are deficient, and that really pisses me off because girls aren't deficient, they're awesome, and they're amazing, and they're brilliant, and they're fabulous, and and they're carrying so much burden of of the cultural conditioning and the stereotyping that we put on them, and then you know, layer on top of that racism and and and ableism and you know homophobia and stuff like that. Um, so you know, it's it's not on them to do the work. So, this is a big part of my message. It's not their job to do the work. Yes, we can support and encourage. And build core competences and resilience and grit and all of those things we hear about. But we have to start paying attention to who ha who does have to do the work. And that is the people in control of the context and the culture, right? Which is adults to begin with. Mothers can be really gender stereotyping, and it's mothers that are doing gender reveal parties, you know. Fathers can be really uh positively impactful on girls and STEM. Um adults, teachers, media and marketing, I think, are you know really complicit. And in other countries, they're being held much more accountable. In the UK, you know, you can get fined for having um stereotypical um ads on TV. Yeah, I remember when that came out, like that.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

Yeah, and they're doing it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

And there's this great organization called Let Toys Let Toys Be Toys, which is calling out um stores for gender stereotyping and clothing and stuff like that. So we have to be starting to pay attention to those things, which means we have to be thinking about how we raise boys and how and what the role of men is in terms of promoting um gender equity and what the role of white people is in challenging racism and all of those kinds of things. And the burden of responsibility is on the people with power and privilege, and the people with power and privilege are typically the dominant group, which is most of the time middle-class, middle-aged, straight white men. So I come, I say that explicitly in my talks, and it doesn't always go over that well because those people will sometimes get really defensive. Sure. But I have noticed over the last 10 years, I would say that I've gone from talking to rooms full of uh women, so preaching to the choir to some extent, white women often, um, to nowadays talking to groups, talking to rooms full of gender diverse uh. And you know what?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

Me too. Yeah. I will say, like when I used to talk about this, there was never, never a man in the room. And I actually said this and I felt kind of, I was like, I know this seems weird that I'm saying this this past weekend um in Grand Prairie, and I was like, thank you to the men in the room. And I know it's weird that I'm saying thank you, but there was a point when men would not be in the room. Right. They didn't think it applied to them. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

And and we can't really blame them for not thinking it applied to them because we kept saying, fix the girls, fix the girls, and let's, you know, it's all about the girls, and it's not, it's about it's about human beings, it's about humanity. So um, so the culture and context, how do you fix culture and context? Um, well, that's you know, that's hard work, and people don't always want to do the hard work.

SPEAKER_00 24:17

Um, but this And what about the fact, like, like how do we how do we give an impetus to let's say men, for example, to do this work, right? As a instead, you know, you we are always like, think of your mother, think of your wife, like all that bullshit of being like whatever. Like, I feel like, you know, what you kind of said before, talking about like economically, like, don't we want better standards of living? This and that, does that work? Does that resonate with people? I feel like people are so detached from the greater good that they really just think of themselves all the time.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Well, I think I mean it's you know, it does. Well, it's we don't but human beings are programmed to think that way, right? So human beings are you know, we have to think about, you know, how can we use human psychology? How can we use favor? How can we use it?

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Especially our culture, our culture is very, you know, Western culture is very like every man for themselves. Individualism. Yes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

Yeah. So I mean, but I but if you look to the work of people like um Michael Kaufman, Jeff Pereira, and Michael Flood are the three m uh male experts that that um I refer to, um, there's a ton of data that shows gender equity, gender equality is actually better for men. So now we have let's hear something. We now have all of this attention around mental health, right? Much, much more attention than we used to have around the importance of good uh mental health. And when you create more gender equity and you look at the programming, you've got culture, the culture of overwork, the culture of gender stereotypes around who does which kind of work and and you know what does it, what does masculine sort of macho culture mean, which is what boys are raised to aspire to, um, it's actually really bad for mental health. So if we actually can raise boys to be caring and compassionate and you know, uh and embrace those characteristics that have been gender stereotyped to be feminine, um, it's actually more healthy for them. Then they can open up, they can be, they can be empathetic, they can talk about their feelings, they can have, you know, we have, you know, we with the language we use around men's friendships, romances, right? Why can't you have a a good friendship with a man without it having sort of like sexual connotations? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, so um so those so that's so I promote a systems approach. So there are different ways that you can say this is good for everybody. So it could be good because creating a more humane workplace is good for everybody in terms of mental health, in terms of productivity, in terms of retention. So if you're in the corporate world, those are all things that you want. You want good productive people to stay and you want to hire the best, so you want to make sure you have a and you don't want people to take time off for mental health.

SPEAKER_00 26:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

So, you know, create an environment where you recognize that part of what you're doing is creating more gender-equitable kind of workplace, which is gonna, you know, hopefully bring in more women and hang on to them, but also it's gonna make the men in your organization healthier and happier.

SPEAKER_00 27:06

And what about the like what about the media? Because, you know, I think we both agree that media I think is like personally the biggest force because I think that's where everything trickles down from. And you know, lately there are a lot of campaigns, like, think about like the Gillat campaign, or like how do we feel? What's the vibe on that? Are we like, okay, yes, good work, or are we like, okay, this is like too extra and like very transparent, or like what are we thinking?

SPEAKER_01 27:29

So I'm a big fan of um holding media and marketing accountable, and I think that they are comp absolutely complicit in gender stereotyping. It drives me nuts. I hate Disney.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Um, like can we talk about the fact that like the little mermaid didn't speak and she brushed her hair with a fork and the guy was head over heels for her? Yeah, like what the fuck? Yeah, no, I think that you know like based on what?

SPEAKER_01 27:50

And if you go, if you go to Gina Davis's um Oh my god, I know I need to get in on it. To get the data, it's it, you know, even though they've come out with more and more like empowered female characters, they speak less and less. They speak less and less. I've seen that. There's a whole crap on that, yeah. Yeah, media and marketing. We I don't know, in Canada, we're just like so complacent and just like you know, um it's like there's nothing, you know, there's no substance there, it's like no no challenge. And I think I think there's a laziness around it that that doesn't challenge them to look at at how stereotyped they are in in many different directions. I think the Gillette ad is brilliant. I've seen I've seen it shown at uh a really big venue. Uh Tanya Van Bezen from Catalyst and I were keynoting on something, um, and she showed it at um a really big venue that was full of engineers, it was like Hydro One or something like that. Um, lots of men in the room, and and it really, you know, it really shuts everybody up. But you can hear a pin drop. And then she also, and then and then I think either before or after, she showed the always like a girl. Yes. Which always makes me cry, you know. So little girls like run like a girl, and she's like this, and then you know, as they get older, and they are then they ask a boy, teenage boy, you know, can you run like a girl? And he does this kind of like really, you know, insulting kind of stupid run. And he and then they ask him, Is that you know, is that like your sister? And he said, No, no, no, no, that's not my sister, but that's not a ghost bounce, then what? Yeah. And then and then they they go to a teenage girl and they say, Can you run like a girl? And then she does the same thing. She does this goofy, kind of like stupid, trivial run. And so it's really um, it really shows the shift in terms of how we belittle and and and demean and humiliate the things that girls do, you know. So I think putting those two side by side like there are Olympic female runners, like what yeah, you know, and it's when I was growing up, when I was a little kid, women's soccer was a joke. Like Benny Hill, it would be like a it was used as a joke. Now that's changed, right? So now there are the lionesses and and there's a world league, and then women play cricket, and so all of those things are actually changed and it's good. Um, but we still have that's none of that happened through making media and marketing more accountable. It it came through other routes of people advocating for change. So um, so I like things like Gillette and Always and Dove have done some really good stuff, and I think if you are going to push the agenda, you're gonna have to deal with a backlash. So, yeah, of course, put it out there, and yeah, you're gonna get all of this nasty stuff and toxic backlash and everything. But that's what leaders do, that's what pushing the agenda does. You won't get cultural change without people getting hostile.

SPEAKER_00 30:33

Yeah, and at this point in time, with the way our culture is, the leaders are corporations. Yes, right? The thought leaders and the people who get to spread new ideals and messages are brands, and so it really is their responsibility. You know, I always think about I was always so torn with celebrities who would be like, Well, fuck, I never wanted to be a role model, I just wanted to be a singer. And it's like, well, too fucking bad. Like that's part of your job. That's actually why you get paid millions of dollars, is because you're a role model, it's not just about your music. And like, I think the same does need to go for brands. Um, it's like, you know, be aware that you are creating cultural values at this point. Right. It is like you are a person of privilege, but a corporation, right? You are in a privileged position, you have this opportunity, so what are you gonna do with it? So I think that's important.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yeah, I agree totally. And I would like to see more courage from some of those. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 31:20

Yeah. And I mean, the other thing too is I guess I find it weird. Not weird. I guess I feel confused about the what a big deal we make of it when Gillette puts an ad like this. Like, oh my God, look at this ad that flips masculinity on its head. It's like, I guess I'm upset that that's such a big deal. Like, why is it still a big deal? It's just like, you know, I I did this workshop this weekend where I was like, you know, I want you to, you know, I said to the room, name me characters you can think of that are mathematicians in film, right? And people would be like Goodwill Hunting and Sheldon from Big Bang, whatever. And I was like, see all these white males. And one guy put up his hand and said, Well, you know, there's hidden figures. And I was like, Yeah, and look what a fucking big deal was made of hidden figures. It was like the biggest thing on the planet because no one had ever portrayed women in math that way, ever. Right? Like, so it's like, yeah, it's not to be said it's not to say those things shouldn't be made, of course they should. I guess I'm still just upset that like we make such a big deal of them because they're so rare.

SPEAKER_01 32:10

Yeah, and it's so so, and that's a big thing about actually shifting culture, is you have to start normalizing. Exactly. And so when you start saying, Oh, girls and STEM, girls and STEM, girls and STEM, we have to get them interested in STEM and all that kind of stuff, it's as if that isn't normal. And that there's that they're unicorns, and there's like you know, I have I had a student that came, I had a graduate student that came through a program, um, came through the medical physics program um as an undergraduate, and then she switched over and came into molecular science to do more cell biology and stuff. And she is really, really smart, and but she would describe how exhausting it was to continually be treated as if she was some mythical unicorn. Right. It's like, you oh, you have a degree in medical physics. Well, oh, you must be so smart, you must be so you must be so rare and wondrous, and you know, and people thought it was a compliment, but all it did for her was made her feel like she was weird. Right. And so, um, and that's you know, that's really sad. I want it to be normal for everybody to go and feed, you know, I want it to be normal for girls to go and do medical physics or girls to go do engineering. I want it to be normal for boys to go do ballet. I want it to be normal for, you know, boys to play with dolls. I want it to be normal for girls to build robots, you know, and it's about normalizing humanity and and human activities. And um that's that's shifting culture, right? It's not about like focusing on fixing girls.

SPEAKER_00 33:32

Yeah. Okay, I want to ask you this question because it is the stupidest question, but I would like an actual scientist to answer this for anyone out there who might still have a doubt. So I was um I did an interview with an actual radio station that was live on air to people across Canada. And the host said to me, I'm afraid of what's coming. It shouldn't be. The host said to me, um, so listen, this is crazy, but I saw this article and they did brain scans of girls and boys, and they proved that there is no difference when it comes to mathematical intelligence in girls and boys' brains. And I was like, It was like, um, yeah, there uh he was like, Did you know that? And I was like, I don't need a brain scan at this point to tell me that, like, yes, like I I I said, everyone knows that biologically there is no difference. And his response, I just hope you are sitting down, I'm looking at you, and he said, Yeah, I just wonder what happens after puberty. So for anyone, for anyone out there who still thinks that there is a biological difference in the way that um males and females are capable of math, can you give us a little like you know like is that independently true?

SPEAKER_01 34:51

No, not absolutely absolutely not. Why thank you just what so let me just say what brain scans will show show you typically is that there is a a a range of brain activity in men and a range of brain activity in women, and they overlap. So there's diversity in human beings, right? But there's nothing that splits them into okay, you can only do this, and you can only do that on the basis of. There's no math gene, right? There is no math gene. And I have a math. And and I'm and let me tell you, I have worked with DNA directly. I have sequenced DNA. I have count, I have like, you know, the A T G C A for genes that I have studied, and I can tell you there is no math gene.

SPEAKER_00 35:34

I mean, I feel like we should just end right here, except I have two more questions I need to ask you. But thank you. Thank you very much. I mean, I know the answer. Yes. Most people know the answer, but there are still people out here there who do not know the answer, and I'm so glad that we had a real fucking scientist who has touched DNA.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Maybe we should uh, you know, take out like ads on uh billboards or something and say there is no math gene. Stop looking. Okay, we can work on a campaign.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Yeah. Okay, final two questions. Um, what would you say to someone who says they're not a math person?

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Oh, I would say, oh my god, you're a person, you're a human being. You you use math every day, you just don't realize it. We're all math people. Great. Be bold. Have courage.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Be bold, be brave. Okay, and then lastly, how would you change the way math is taught in schools?

SPEAKER_01 36:26

Oh, well, you're the expert on that. Well, I know, but I'm not sure. I would come and ask. First of all, I would come and ask you. Um, I would say somebody's asked me this question, sir. Can you give me uh, you know, 12 hours of your time at whatever your going rate is, um, and then we would negotiate. And, you know, I'd buy you more tea or something. Um so I would say, uh, I wish we could I don't I wish we could slow things down. I really I wish we could slow things down and spend more time and just immerse ourselves in in the you know the wonder and the beauty of math. Um I if I hadn't done science, I would have done music. You know, music and physics and math are all tightly intertwined. I would love to just immerse myself in in you know understanding the the math of music and and I just I think just normalizing it and making making it part of the world around us, I think, would be a way to just really um help us understand that we're all math people. The world is math is the language of the universe. And so when you're learning math, you're just learning a language, and you're learning the language that underpins the entire universe. So it's like everything, it's it's the world around us. So maybe slowing it down and just being able to sort of have some wonder and some sort of um understand the beauty of it. Room for curiosity, I think. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that's what you said. Yeah. That's what no, that's what you said.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

Room for curiosity, yeah. All right, well, okay, before we completely wrap up, and I say bye in a very dramatic way. Um, is there anything we didn't talk about that you want to say? Is there anything you want us to like promote for you? Is there anything you want uh people to do? Any call to action? Wash your hands, everyone. Wash your hands. Always, all year round. Wash your hands, get your vaccinations.

SPEAKER_01 38:14

Uh treat people kindly and humanely and stop gender stereotyping kids. Please, please, please stop gender stereotyping kids. Let kids have all the toys, let kids have all the books. There are no books, films, movies, toys for girls to boys. Let kids be kids and let them just explore the world.

SPEAKER_00 38:33

Emma Jen, it was a fucking pleasure. I this was this was so good. I feel invigorated. I feel ready to go out there and like squirt, say hand sanitize them all over the place and just yell for gender equality. So thank you. Anytime, always. So, so powerful. I always feel like ten times smarter after talking to Emma Jen, and I really hope you guys do too. I know we all try our best, but I think it's really hard to understand how deep diversity issues really run unless you have an expert help unpack them for you. Knowledge truly is power, and I hope that this episode gave you a new lens with which to look at like not only the complexity of math and gender, but to examine the way you see yourself as a math person or not. If you want to follow Dr. Co. on socials, which I highly recommend, you can find her on Instagram at Dr. Imogen Co. or on Twitter at ImogenR Co P H D. As always, you can find everything we talked about on our show notes at www.themathgur.ca slash math therapy. And remember to follow us on all social media at the MathGur for more math therapy and more of me. Finally, a reminder that Math Therapy is hosted by me, the Nasty Vicaria, produced by Stefina Watts, and edited by David Kochberg. And our theme song is Waves by Goodnight Sunrise, which is my bad. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please share this podcast and write a quick review on whatever podcast app you use. Those two things make a huge, huge difference. I'm really determined to change the culture surrounding math, and I need your help to spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.