SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vicaria, aka the Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. And don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Hey guys! Okay, so today I have like an actual magician on the show. I don't know why this is so exciting, but I don't know. I feel like I've never been like up close and personal with a magician before. So by day, Jonah Babbins is a magician, performing at events in Toronto, New York, and LA, and he has his own magic company called the Toronto Magic Company. But by night, he interviews some of the most famous magicians on the planet on his very own podcast called Discourse in Magic. Basically, he's a magic nerd. Like, that's how he identifies. And I am digging it. But low-key guys, Jonah has a degree in math, and today we discuss whether math and magic are actually like the same thing. Or maybe totally not at all. Or maybe it's all just an illusion. Okay, that like didn't really have much to do with anything, but I really wanted to say it. Okay, so on that note, here is Jonah Babbins, everyone. Welcome to the podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Thank you so much. I'm very excited to be here.

SPEAKER_02 1:27

Okay, so as you know, this podcast is called Math Therapy. Yes. Um, and we are gonna figure out what that means together. But I'm basically here to help you work through your math trauma. Okay. So what's really interesting is you're one of our few guests who actually, from what I gather, likes math.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

Oh but I still have trauma. Right, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

So I think that's really really cool. And so let's just let's just start by getting into it. So why don't you just start by telling me, like, if somebody came up to you on the street or like I came up to you in a podcast and I was like, Do you like math? What would you say?

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Um, you do like math. I do, I do like math. Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:02

And have you always liked math?

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Um, yes, math has frustrated me before, and probably not for the same reasons as it frustrated most people. But uh, I do like math, and I for as long as I can remember, I have always liked math.

SPEAKER_02 2:22

Okay, so let's go back in time, like, because often, like you know, trauma starts as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

So let's go back to like little Jonah and like being in the classroom and sort of just tell me what your experiences of math were like in the class.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

I'd say start within the class, like yeah, elementary school uh I don't remember very well. But I don't really remember math making me uh overly excited and like it was I think it was just a thing that I did, you know. Uh I know that that stuff was a little more interesting and came a little bit easier to me than uh writing. Um, but really it was once I hit high school where uh I had some great math teachers and I really just got absorbed into it. It was easier for me, it was more it was fun for me to like get into a problem, like, and because problems were more than one step, you know, it was something to like focus on, and like so that's when I really started getting excited about it, and um I had switched from uh a private school to a public school, and I went from taking eleven courses simultaneously to four courses, and I was like, Whoa, what do I do with all of my free time? So instead of taking like silly I instead of taking electives, right? Just like random things, I was like, why don't I get better at math? So uh in when I was in grade uh 10, which was the year that I switched, in grade 10 I did grade 10 and then 11 math. In grade 11, I did the two grade 12 math functions and advanced functions, and then in grade 12, I was like, ah, and I did data management, and there was no other math for me to take. So I I always felt like I was excelling. I mean, I wasn't like, I don't know, I just I I didn't really have a reason for that. Like I think I was gonna do it.

SPEAKER_02 4:25

Like you weren't doing it to like get ahead, you were just like, I really enjoy this.

SPEAKER_01 4:28

Yeah, it j I I I kind of wanted to do something harder. Like I wanted to do stuff that was hard. And you found it challenging. And I found it, it was yeah, I found it at least like it I had to think. I don't know. I I I don't know I it's hard for me to explain why. I don't know why. I was just like, I was like, okay, I could take like this some random elective about like basket weaving or whatever nonsense. That's not a that's not a thing. Some schools are not in my school, but or or like wood shop or all this stuff, and I was like, oh, I could like build a birdhouse, or like, or I could be better at math. I was like, oh come on. Like Okay.

SPEAKER_02 5:03

Okay, cool. So you actually liked being challenged and you liked thinking, but it wasn't something that was like super herd for you. It was just challenging in like a kind of fun way. So then you decided to pursue a degree in math.

SPEAKER_01 5:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

So tell me about that.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

So really cool. Definitely when I went to university, I was like, I want to be challenged in math. And that super happened.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

And this is and hold on, this is nothing to do with a job, right?

SPEAKER_01 5:27

You're not no, nothing to do with a job.

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Because most people go into university now, right? People feel the pressure to be like, it's not about what they enjoy doing. They're like, I need to take A in order to get to.

SPEAKER_01 5:36

So that would have been wise. That would have been a really smart way for me to go about it. Right. Uh, not what I did. My feeling at the time was uh I like math. I really like math, it's very fun. I could see myself being a professor, but really my hope is at some point in one of these four years worth of math classes, I'm gonna be sitting in a class and I'm gonna go, this kind, this is the type of math that I want to do. Right. Yeah, that never happened. That never happened. So, so math was super fun. Yeah, uh, I loved learning it, it was really challenging, it was an entirely different kind of math than high school was. It was creative all of a sudden, you know. I was working with other people to like problem solve at things, like um, but it it was hard and it moved at a very, very quick pace. And the real problem was exactly what you said, which is all my friends were in school learning about the thing that they were gonna then did whatever, whatever. Right, right. And I was like, not only learning, just doing math what felt like for the sake of math, but the the there's a rule that you're not allowed to ask in a math class, and you're really not allowed to ask it in a university math class. You know the only rule.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Is it why can't you divide by zero?

SPEAKER_01 6:57

No, but it's a good one. The rule come on, you know this rule. The rule is where in life am I gonna use it? Right. Oh my god. Where is this, where is this going to help me in life?

SPEAKER_02 7:08

So I still don't I mean I have a pretty good answer to that, which we can talk about.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

Not only in high school, that one's like maybe that one you could maybe like go, oh, you know, maybe if you throw a ball, it's a parabola, no, and also at that point they're like, you're gonna need it for university.

SPEAKER_02 7:23

Right. But now you're in university, so now what's the I'm like, now what?

SPEAKER_01 7:27

So so for a very long time I uh just sort of said, relax, that question, like relax, like you will figure this out, you'll use this. Like, and there were courses that excited me a little bit, but they all seemed to be more in the direction of pure math. So it was people being like, you wanna study this? Like, let's continue to study how many ways you can join dots and lines when you organize. And like, it's so interesting to me. I love doing the math, but like that's what I'm gonna do. Like, that's what I'm gonna do with my life. I'm gonna like come up with a new theorem about uh the ways to make a connection between dots and lines. Like, yeah, but so that was the that's the frustration, right? That was the big like, that's what I need math therapy for. Is me be me being me being in class and being like being like, Why am I doing this? I'm just studying a random even if I was studying history, I would at least be wiser about the world. But like, when someone when someone says to me, What are you studying? I say math, and they go, Go ahead, what do they say?

SPEAKER_02 8:30

But when will you ever need it?

SPEAKER_01 8:31

No, no, what do people say to you when you say anything about math? But why? Yeah, they go, I hate math. Oh, I despise math forever. They go, here's my favorite. They once said to me, they said, What are you studying? And I said, Oh, math, and they go, Oh, someone's gotta do it. And I was like, I'm not taking one for the team. Like, I enjoy this, right?

SPEAKER_02 8:49

But okay, but this is like so interesting because I'm picturing, so it's just so weird the way you're talking about it. So you just said, if I was studying history, then at least I'd be wiser about the world, which to me just seems kind of fucked up. Because are we swearing on this podcast?

SPEAKER_00 9:05

Sure.

SPEAKER_02 9:06

Okay, things don't matter. So, because to me, if you're learning about math, which like I mean, this is a whole other conversation, but you would say that's like a universal truth in a way, that you're somehow not wiser about the world. Wouldn't you be the wisest about the world?

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Do you what what did you go to school for? Did you do math or not?

SPEAKER_02 9:26

No, I took a business degree, a practical business degree.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

Do you know what do you know what an epsilon delta proof is?

SPEAKER_02 9:33

No.

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Okay. So I'm gonna explain to you what an epsilon delta proof is. So an epsilon delta proof. This is this is people are gonna this feels this is gonna be the most therapeutic. Um uh the an epsilon delta proof proves calculus.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

Okay. So, but it it's proving that the the incremental move, you know, like when you do f at x plus h? Yeah. It's proving that that whole thing works out. So like that the slope of a tangent line at any point, whatever. But it it's a lot deeper than that, and you're basically like proving that that the errors cancel themselves out and all this different stuff. And why? I don't know, because that sounds crazy. I know, but like to what end? Like, we already like you already understand the slope of the line, you understand how to do it, you understand this is what uh this is what it is. So what what am I proving it again?

SPEAKER_02 10:27

I don't know. I guess I just feel like we literally are on the planet for zero reason.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

So like whatever you choose to do with your time is like a Again, I'm not, of course, of course, but that was my issue is I was. You're having an excess center. Exactly. Exactly. The last few years of school was me being like, what is this? What am I doing? Like, uh not only am I like getting deeper into this field, but like I can't talk to anyone about this aside from just the people that are in this field. So, alright, this does sound traumatic. So bad.

SPEAKER_02 10:59

So now, what happened in the end? Did you graduate? So, yes, I graduated. Um Were you were you like honestly like kind of losing it?

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Losing it. Losing it. Losing my mind. Like what was ha like were you? I was I was uh I was very involved in extracurriculars.

SPEAKER_02 11:17

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 11:18

Thank God for that. Right. So I found myself feeling like, you know, someone who goes to a nine to five job they really don't like. It was kind of like that. So I would like wake up really early, go to the class, write everything. Also, in math, you don't break computers. You write exactly what the prof writes.

SPEAKER_02 11:35

Isn't it hard? It it's it doesn't even sound like it was hard. I mean, it yes, it was hard. It it was that's not what was driving you crazy. No. It was that it was pointless.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

What was I gonna do? Practice this to get better at it? Like, so I did the test and I studied a little bit and I got an 85 or whatever. What? So I need like I wish you guys could see Jonah's face because he looks psycho right now. I but I it drove me crazy for years. And so I'll tell you one of the the the pinnacle moments. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. So the pinnacle moment was in fourth year, and I took the leap, which was I was in a class with with a prof who I thought was one of the most down-to-earth profs that I had. He liked to talk about the world. You know, one day he came into class and he took a uh uh uh an empty wine glass and he put one drop of water into it, and he said, What is the likelihood that this drop of water was a drop of water that was touched by Abraham Lincoln? And we calculated it. We figured out how many molecules, how many. So cool. Yes, he was a really cool guy. Um, so I we were learning something, and and we were doing this interesting math comment, and I love math. It's beautiful, like I love it.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

I I really keep defending that you're gonna be.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Because I'm gonna get so angry in a minute. And I just want to like so so I did. I raised my hand and I said, When are we going to use this?

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Like that's so annoying.

SPEAKER_01 13:00

In what but I don't even know, I think I was pretty cushiony about it, but I was like, I was like, where in the world does this kind of math apply? Like, where is this used? And he said he looked at me and he, you know, shook his head like this, and he said, It's the job of the mathematician to uncover mathematics so that if it is required or when it's required from another field, we've already studied it, understand it, and have uncovered it.

SPEAKER_02 13:30

Oh no, to me that's beautiful!

SPEAKER_01 13:32

It is, but I said, You mean to tell me that I am going into the desert, digging a hole yay wide by yay deep, and hoping that one day someone is looking for that hole? And he goes, exactly. And I was like, Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

What?

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Like, oh my no, no. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 13:51

Well, because you know what? This to me is like most of academia.

SPEAKER_01 13:55

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:56

You know, that's what academics do, where you're just like, what the fuck are you researching? Random shit and like all these journal articles that are never read, but then one day there is a cure for something in there that someone is looking to.

SPEAKER_01 14:07

I listen, even that aspect of math is really beautiful to me. You know, there's something called, do you know what matrix multiplication is? Yeah. Okay. So matrix multiplication was invented. Okay? Someone said, Oh, maybe if we stack the equations like this and we do it like this, we can build and it was invented. We need matrix multiplication for all of the math that we do when we go to space.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Right.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

How beautiful. Yeah, that sounds cool. Like how amazing. This is so cool, right?

SPEAKER_02 14:34

Like we just couldn't see, like, I mean. I just didn't want to be the one digging a hole. Like, you're right, you're right. And also, that I mean, it might never be you. So you might never need what you did for your whole life.

SPEAKER_01 14:44

I had a I had a uh a math uh professor, I don't know, I I think he he was a master's student or something, but he was telling us what him and his friends do when they finish their thesis, which is when they put it in the library, they put a$50 bill in it and they put it there. So that when they go back and visit the school a few years later, they know if anybody has read it, if the bill is there or not. And I'm like, so sad! Like what? Like, I I you know, you know, okay, so let me go back, let me let's go down to earth for a minute. Let's go back for a few seconds. Like, I at that time I was sort of figuring out like what am I capable of?

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:21

Because all my friends right now spend four years learning how to write or learning how to, I don't know, do any important thing, and I am just like, you know, deep in this, like, yeah, this whole of math, like, you know, what is this? So I I liked math, I liked the problem solving, but I was like, I don't know, like what what can I do? And I kind of came to a conclusion, right or wrong, probably wrong. Okay, but if I could do this math stuff, I can do whatever. Right. Okay, wait, hold it on. So what does that mean? Why? Because you're so smart? Not like mm, yay, yay, yay, I'm so smart, but like clearly I could overcome this, which was both hard on my brain and hard like emotionally. And and spiritually time-wise, and like time-wise, right? Like, I had to work a lot at it, and I had to like do a lot, and I had to like so I was like, if I can do this, like, I can do whatever.

SPEAKER_02 16:24

Okay, but this, let's just pause on that. Because if the exactly what you said is exactly the opposite how anyone who can't do math feels, right? They literally feel like if I am not capable, not your level of math, but if I'm I'm not capable of mastering X math concepts, right, then what else am I incapable of? Totally. Right? If I can't, so whereas for you, it's like this opposite. So I actually have a question here, just to pull it back for a sec. Like, you are you're obviously working hard, but it wasn't like this huge obstacle you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

No, it wasn't like it it if I was doing a degree in in English, yeah. Right, okay. That would be working.

SPEAKER_02 17:04

So you're doing normal hard work, but you are confident and you've always kind of been good at this. So that idea that that gave you this feeling, like, how do you think that's affected you in your life? Like you're saying, like, that basically made you feel confident that you could tackle anything. Yeah. Which is an incredibly powerful feeling that we want like most human beings to feel generally, because we are all technically capable of.

SPEAKER_01 17:28

I I feel that anybody can do most things. And I say most things, and even myself, most things, but for the sake of argument, okay, only for the sake of safety, let's cut off the top 1% of difficult things. Sure. Even two percent. Right. I think it's pretty I think anybody can do anything. Right, me too. Like, I think if we're there, like if we've cut off the top performers, top, top, top, the ones who are like, oh, naturally he was born with a body like that. Right, right. Let's cut the prodigy. Like anybody can do like most things. Like I and I and I feel pretty good about that, you know, like and and that was kind of the conclusion that I think.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

That's so interesting, because do you think most people have that view?

SPEAKER_01 18:09

I don't.

SPEAKER_02 18:10

So that's really interesting. And I like so this whole vibe of like, even though you didn't like the kind of like end of this means kind of vibe, you still left feeling like you could do whatever you want. Yeah. So let's let's take a let's do a switcheroo and tell us about tell me about magic. How did this all happen?

SPEAKER_01 18:31

So I've done magic for a very long time, since I was super young. I did random like you were always just interested in magic. Yeah, I've always my uncle did magic. I sort of fell in love with that. That's the story that people tell me. I don't remember it. It was too early for me. I like that's how early it was, but but I'm pretty sure my uncle got me into magic. I kept doing it a little bit. Um, I did little random shows here and there, if some something, but like whoever hires a 12-year-old, you know, that kind of show, right? Um, and then come university, and this might very well play a role in my lack of interest in the depth of math. But when all of my friends in the summer were going to do their math internships or what whatever that means, I went and started touring summer camps, doing magic, right? So that was when I started doing I went, I taught workshops, I did uh uh camp-wide shows, I did staff shows, and uh that was the that was another thing that I was sort of succeeding three or two months out of the year, the two months I had off at this other thing that made me feel that was another step in the direction of like, yeah, you can do whatever. Like, this is not like so crazy.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

And now, because like there's an interesting parallel here, right? Like, so were you like, if I can do magic, I can do whatever?

SPEAKER_01 19:50

Not really.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

Like, was magic just like because magic like think about the word magic. Yeah. It's like literally like magic. Yeah. And that's what a lot of people say about math. Like, people who can't do math are often like, well, it's just like magic is impossible. Right, it's impossible, right? So there's like a very like interesting similarity there.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yeah, um, I I mean, m magic is also very hard. You know, magic is the hardest thing I've ever done in my entire life. Um Don't you just like learn so much trick? Magic is an art.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

So, like any art form, it's as deep as you choose to make it. So an artist can take a painting and go, here's my painting.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:30

Or they can slave over their painting for years, you know, like you know, the Mona Lisa was first painted as an outline and then the skeleton, and then the naked body, and then the clothing, and then the why? No, but do you do you know why? No. Me neither. But that's the choice of the artist, and like that's the depth that he's put into it. And I don't know, seems like a pretty popular painting. Yeah, I guess. Right. So I'm not I'm not saying that like you need to paint a painting like that, but definitely the relationship between effort and result are pretty tied together. So magic is only as good as I put an effort into it, and I put as much effort as I can, which means it's the hardest thing I've ever remember. So I think math and all of the troubles with with math have to do with, and I know you feel very similarly, is that one bad teacher. Right. Right. And the reason is because I think math is boiled down to the smallest, smallest element, is just about teaching and explaining. It's just systems. Like it's just when this happens, you do this. Or when this happens, that means this happens, right? Like not making anything up. You're not making anything up. There is no like, oh, well, you have to come up with it, there's none of that. There's just when this happens, you do this. Which means I think math boiled down is really about in basis basis teaching and learning. Because how well I can explain to you and make clear that when A happens, B happens, is how well you'll be able to do it on your own for eternity. We all hear the voice of whoever it was that taught us the thing. Telling us the thing every time we think of the thing. Right? Like that's how we learn stuff. We think back, what did so and so? Oh yeah, this is the lesson that I learned in this place, right?

SPEAKER_02 22:09

So in that's true, actually, because I always think that, especially with us tutoring, that like students will often say, like, I remember how you taught me this, or I remember this funny way you used to say that.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

So it literally comes down to the quality of the teacher, which is how effective they are at learning. So I think in math, you are teaching A implies B, B implies C, C implies D. And then innately, the student should understand that A implies D.

SPEAKER_02 22:35

Mm-hmm. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Even though it might not be instinctual, if we've gone with each of the steps, now I now know that A implies D. That this means that this situation. In magic, in doing a trick, it works exactly the same way, except one of those steps, A implies B, B implies D, C implies D, is a lie. Or at least one of those steps is a lie. And the A implying D is a paradox. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 23:02

So I can explain this more.

SPEAKER_01 23:04

I'll give you a great example. So let's say I have a piece of row. So I say this is a whole piece of row, and you say yes, and I say, I'm gonna fold it in half. You say yes, and I say I'm gonna take the middle. Is this the middle? And you say yes, and I say, I'm gonna cut it, and you say yes, and I say, I now have two ropes, you say yes, and then I say it's back together with one rope.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

How do they do that?

SPEAKER_01 23:24

There's a million different ways.

SPEAKER_02 23:25

Right.

SPEAKER_01 23:26

The answer to every way that it works is one of those things that I said at least was a lie. Like you didn't do it. Maybe I didn't cut it. Maybe I didn't hold it by the middle. Maybe I didn't, maybe it's not one rope at the end, it's two, but I'm holding them together. Maybe it's one of those is a line. Right. Right? So the similarity between math and magic is because math I think is about teaching, magic is also about teaching. Because I need to make sure that you're convinced of each step of that A implies B, B implies C. If one of those makes you go like, hey, wait a second, right? Like a student scratching their head about like you're just saying like this means this, and they're like, I don't understand. You're like, oh, just do it. Like, you don't want that, right? You want like, oh, I get it. So there's a little bit of trickery, obviously, because it's a lie, but all of the skills I learned in learning and teaching to people while I was, you know, working with them is the whole A implies B, B implies C, C implies D thing. And you ever teach something to a student and you're like, Do you get this? And they're like, Yeah, and you're like, No, you know, you don't. I can see it in your face, right? Right. That's half of what I do is making sure you get it, even if I lied, making sure you get it, so that when the result comes to be, it's impossible for you because each step made sense. Right.

SPEAKER_02 24:49

That's so cool. That's such a cool way of thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01 24:52

So that's the relationship between the two of them for me.

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Okay, so one last question. How do you think your confidence with math, like kind of carrying that confidence your whole life, has affected sort of your sense of self-worth or the way you kind of like approach your day-to-day life? Like, do you feel have you ever thought about that?

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yeah, so my confidence with math has has uh gone up and down like a sine wave. Um, this is what this is what we're here for, okay? So, so uh when I w I I uh early I don't remember, but in high school when I was doing math that was ahead of where I should have been, I felt really advanced. I felt like I was secretly Superman, you know, like unless you were in my class, you didn't know how much I knew, you know. And then I went to university and I was in a class with all of those people. They were all the people that were good at me and it was down again, you know. And then nearing the middle, you know, I felt like, you know, there are some types of math where like, you know, you could hit me with a problem that seems like just outrageous, and I could just bump line by line figure out how it works creatively, like come with a solution, and like be able to explain it to a layperson, right? Like somebody who does not know math, I could be like, I'm gonna explain to you how this is being solved, and you will understand it. And like feel really good about that. Now I feel uh confident and I feel confident that I can understand a problem and understand what the problem is.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

Like any problem or just a math problem?

SPEAKER_01 26:17

I feel really good about my problem solving skills. Okay. Part of what I was saying earlier, like when I was leaving school and saying to myself, like, okay, like I can do anything, like da da da. What I thought what I used that to do is I said, if we assume I can do anything, what would be fun and what kind of work environment would I want to build for myself? So one was I wanted to solve creative problems.

SPEAKER_02 26:41

Right.

SPEAKER_01 26:41

So that was a really cool thing about math that I loved doing was creating uh uh solving creative problems. Second thing that I knew that I really loved was I both wanted to work with other people because that was a real highlight of school, but I also wanted to work like deeply in things. That was a really big joy of math. So I was like, okay, I want to work with other people, I want to uh solve creative problems, I want to be able to work on my own deeply. Um and I was like, okay, that's enough to set it into the world. With that and the feeling that like I can do whatever, like that's a way better approach than being like, how do I use this math degree? Like I love this. So that that is what allowed me to say, like, you know, people are always asking themselves at the end of university or whatever, like, what do I want to do? Like, what all it's like a ginormous question. But I turned the question on its head and I said, like, assuming that whatever I'll do will succeed greatly, because I'm amazing, or whatever, then what would be fun? And that solved the what should I do question way, way easier. Because I said, I know what would be fun. I'll start a magic podcast where I interview world-famous magicians. That's what I'm doing now. You know, I do full-time magic, I've got the podcast, I have the Toronto Magic Company where I produce shows, and I never thought I would be doing a creative job. In some ways, it has a lot to do with math because I do a lot of problem solving. You know, I'm doing ticket sales, which means you know, I have to do numbers, I have to see how much per ticket I can do in ads versus you know, all of this stuff where math is coming in handy. But for the most part, it's the problem solving, the confidence, the and just this ability that like hit me with your problem. Like, hit me with this thing and like let me solve it. And even still, I love performing, I love doing magic. Secretly, secretly, deep, deep down, I'd much rather someone come up to me and say, like, here's the trick that I'm struggling with. Like, help me make this work. Because like, I'm a problem solver.

SPEAKER_02 28:44

Well, we could talk about this for hours, but we are going to end by me asking you the two questions that I ask everyone on the podcast and then giving you your prescription, and I know exactly what it's gonna be, and I'm so excited. Okay, so first question: what would you say to someone who thinks that they are not a math person?

SPEAKER_01 29:05

I would say, um, I would say first, if you're listening to this right now, you think you're not a math person, just say out loud the name of the math teacher that ruined that for you. Just say it into the air, and then it will be released from you, and then you won't have to do, you won't have to say that anymore. You can just release it. Mrs. Chablang or whatever her name is, just release it and then it'll be over. And I will also say that there are so, so many amazing resources and teachers online and offline to help.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

And well, and I would add not to add to your answer, but I think one thing you would and should say is what you said earlier, which is that anybody, you know, just we're you know, if you just take away the one or two percent of their natural born pro, you know, anyone can do anything.

SPEAKER_01 29:53

Anybody can get a 90% on a high school math class.

SPEAKER_02 29:56

Okay, number two, if you could change one thing about the way math is taught, what would it be?

SPEAKER_01 30:04

I would hold off on uh on calculus until university. I think the stuff that I learned in data management, uh, like that basic statistics and probability has been so much more important in my world than F at X plus H. You know, there's so many people don't take courses like data, uh data management because they are like enough math. Like I don't need another math.

SPEAKER_02 30:37

A lot of people to also take them because if they want to go into a program requiring math, you normally need the other ones, not data.

SPEAKER_01 30:42

Right. So it's it gets neglected. I think it is so, so much more applicable because you sit in that class and all you think of is the ways in the world that it it applies. It's all you think of. They're talking about in this population, you can assume this and this, and you're like, I live in a population, you know, like you know, it's I assume things all the time.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

Okay, is there anything else you want to say?

SPEAKER_01 31:08

As much as I have talked so much smack about math, it is so beautiful. Yeah. Math is so beautiful in a way that I cannot express when you have a proof and you're creating something and you make all these terms and they all cancel out and you understand why, and it ends up like simple and it's beautiful. And like to to to look at a uh a circumference of a cylinder and be like, why is it that? And some be like, it's two circles and a piece and a rectangle around her like carbohydrate, and you're like, oh yeah, and now it just makes sense. Like to go through a proof and meticulously go from like this equation makes no sense to be like, I innately understand how these terms work. It's like I cannot express enough how beautiful it is.

SPEAKER_02 31:56

I think uh we need a good picture and the caption, find a guy that looks like you're looking at math.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yeah, totally, totally. There are math proofs that I like still love, like the proof of infinite promise.

SPEAKER_02 32:08

Can't wait to hear about that later. No one wants to hear about that. Okay. Okay. So, um, before I give you your prescription, why don't you go do a little promo promo, tell our listeners what you want to see?

SPEAKER_01 32:20

So if you uh want magic at uh an event anytime, call me. Uh you can go to john of abbins.com. You're coming to our next time. Done. Boom, boom, boom. I'll be there, I'll bend some cutlery. And uh and uh if you want to go see a live magic show in Toronto, we have shows every week all over the city called the Toronto Magic Company, and I made a coupon code uh called Math Therapy, where you get 15% off if you use coupon code at Math Therapy to any of our shows, although half of our shows are free. Uh but if you want to go to half off a free. It's 15% off, and it is still free. So I like to make the problems very easy to solve here. The proofs are easy here. Um and uh yeah, come see a show. Uh and if you come see the free one, uh let me know that you came because you heard about this podcast and we can talk math or we can talk about all the things we hate about math, or whatever it is you want.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

Okay, so now it's time for your math therapy prescription.

SPEAKER_01 33:14

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 33:15

So, Jonah, I have heard you say over and over again during our time together that um the one question you're not allowed to ask is when will I need this in real life? Yes. And it's really interesting the way you talk about it because you keep kind of saying you don't need any of the stuff you're using in your math degree, like nothing you learned you ever needed in in real life. But interestingly, there's like this very beautiful like weaving in and out of all the ways you actually have used your math degree in real life. So I want you to write for all of our students. I would like some sort of like poster for the math guru wall of all the ways you need math in real life that have nothing to do with actual math.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

Love it.

SPEAKER_02 34:01

Like, I want you to just write me a list of 10 amazing things that math has given you in life.

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Done. Part of the ex part the reason why this is so exciting is because um I have I did it, right? I use math in the real world, you know? Like that existential problem of like what's the point just for everyone to keep teaching this for the rest of time and no one ever figured out what it's used for. Like, I I finally got out of that alive, you know, and I figured out what it's used for.

SPEAKER_02 34:29

So And I feel like you're using so like you're using every like that math degree might be like the best thing that ever happened to you because if it has literally left you with the feeling that you could do anything on the planet, what else do you ever want to gain from something?

SPEAKER_01 34:43

Yeah, I don't know, I don't know what else. Uh it's pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 34:47

Like you're living large. Like, do you most people don't think they can do anything in the world? Like that's something to think about.

SPEAKER_01 34:53

Bummer.

SPEAKER_02 34:54

Okay, cool. Amazing. This was so much fun. Wow. I just loved that whole combo, even though like now I feel like I'm on the verge of an existential crisis about the meaning of knowledge, but in a good way. Okay, so like the great student that he is, Jonah did fulfill his prescription, and you can see his list of why math matters, the list that has nothing to do with but everything to do with actual math, on our website where we put all of our show notes.themathguru.ca slash math therapy. For more Jonah Babbins, check him out live at the Toronto Magic Company. And remember, Math Therapy listeners get a discount. Just use promo code Math Therapy. Also, do yourselves a favor and check out his podcast, Discourse in Magic, which you can grab on your fave podcasting app. Remember to follow us on all social media at the Math Guru for more math therapy. That's where we put all extra episode-related content every week. And of course, a reminder that math therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vicaria, produced by Sabina Wex, and edited by David Kochberg. And our theme song is Waves by Good Night Sunrise, which is my rock and roll band. Guys, also, if you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone else just get in math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast and write us a quick review on iTunes. Those two things actually make such a big difference. I am so determined to change the culture surrounding math, and I really need your help. So please do spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.