Candace Borland  0:01  (intro quote)
I've worked in branded communication for a number of years now, I work in a creative industry - we do math every day. Everyone's a math person, math is so inherent to life.

Candace Borland  0:12  (intro quote)
So much of what we see out in the media informs culture and especially in young people, and so how can you authentically make the most of that opportunity to change culture?

Vanessa Vakharia  0:22  (show intro)
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru. And you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time, whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.

Vanessa Vakharia  0:47  (episode intro)
Okay, so today we're doing something we've never done before on this podcast. You guys know I spend a lot of time talking about the role of media and reinforcing stereotypes that tell us that only certain people belong in the world of math, and I spend a lot of time calling out companies for being complicit in these stereotypes. But I've never actually interviewed someone who has the power to not just create that media, but to use it for good instead of evil. Today, I'm so pumped to bring on my friend Candace Borland, partner and president of Anomaly Canada, a global creative and strategic agency whose mission it is to be the acknowledged change agent of the communications industry. She's worked with brands like Budweiser, Corona, Stella, Google, Nike and Hershey's, and we actually met while we were both getting marketing degrees in university. Coincidentally, I was really riled up by an upsetting ad campaign I had just seen, so I wasted no time in diving right in to get her perspective.

Vanessa Vakharia  1:39  
Candace, welcome to the podcast!

Candace Borland  1:42  
Thanks for having me, I'm excited to be here.

Vanessa Vakharia  1:43  
So pumped! Alright, so over the summer, AT&T put out an ad that was kind of like, disturbing re: women in STEM - it showed a mother and daughter struggling at the computer being like "ugh, math". So when that ad came out, I had everyone on my social media platforms calling AT&T out, and I emailed them and I was like, "guys what's up, this is super sexist". They wrote back and they were like, "you know what, we actually give a lot of funding to women in STEM and organizations that support that, and this was a misstep on our part, we're sorry". And I was like, you know what, cool, people make mistakes, they recognize that, whatever. But a lot of people were like, "no, they need to do this, they need to do that." 

Vanessa Vakharia  2:23  
I want to just back up, and this is a two part question. Number one, I want to continue to encourage our listeners to feel empowered to make change. So the first thing is, what is the best way to ... maybe call out is the wrong word, but what is the best way to address if you see a brand doing something that you feel is socially irresponsible, and b) what is the responsibility of the brand at that point?

Candace Borland  2:47  
I think that if consumers see something that they don't align with, or if they see something that they feel is perpetuating a stereotype or if they see something that they don't think is helpful in culture, they can absolutely contact that brand. And a lot of brands have brand stewards that would be able to communicate back with people in some way. And whether it's - trust me, when you put communications out in the world, regardless of what they are, you're going to get a comment one way or the other. But if they see a theme, they might recognize that they've overlooked something and can then change course.

Vanessa Vakharia  3:25  
Well, and I think that's why I always say there's power in numbers, and not just because I love math, but because it's like, if you share it, and then your friend shares it, and the more people that share it, a brand has to kind of pay attention. So don't be afraid to be the first person to instigate that and to share that on your channels or with your friends. 

Vanessa Vakharia  3:42  
And I was gonna ask, what protocols do you - you know, your company is kind of really lucky, you're really cool, and you're progressive, and these issues really, really matter to you - I can imagine that a lot of advertising companies, maybe even the older school ones are not the same. What kind of measures do you guys have at your offices or what kind of protocols are in place to make sure that these things aren't overlooked? And I ask because when AT&T wrote back to say "Well, actually, we give X amount of dollars every year to organizations supporting women in STEM and overlooked this", I was like, but how the fuck could you overlook this? How could you overlook the fact that you have an ad portraying two women as not knowing math, if you're so supportive of women in STEM - I found that a bit suspect?  What's going on behind the scenes there?

Candace Borland  4:29  
I mean, I probably can't speak to what was going on in their circumstance. 

Vanessa Vakharia  4:35  
(laughing)

Candace Borland  4:35  
But going to what do we do? You know, and I'll say, absolutely no one's perfect. And all organizations, whether it's brands, companies, agencies, etc, are run by humans and so inherently, we make mistakes. But I'm not even sure that I would say we put measures in place to try to avoid that. I would say that because of our perspective and belief, you know, we as a company internally, obviously, we have our own brand. And diversity, equity and inclusion is incredibly important to us. So much of what we do internally is everything from recruitment to our internal cultural programming is making an effort to have conversations and educate people on other perspectives.  And just cultural sensitivity, cultural awareness, like we have, I mean, calling it a "women's group" feels really lame, but you know what I mean, we have this female programming and female group, and I truly think - like that film I told you about with Bud Light, it was two white guys who led that project, but because they're so in on this daily conversation about equity and inclusion from a gender perspective, from a race perspective, from a belief perspective, etc, etc, they're sensitive to it, they hear it, it's top of mind.

Candace Borland  6:10  
And I think that that's the win, right? It's, yes we want representation, absolutely, of all kinds of people, because their perspectives are so valuable, and equal opportunity, but also, if we can get everyone to have this awareness of it, if we can get everyone to have this sensitivity to it, and really see things from other people's perspectives, then you won't have to look for snafus as much, you know, because people will just think differently. So I think it's ingrained in our culture to really learn about and be sensitive to other cultures and other perspectives. But then we do have, we call them cultural catalysts, or cultural committees - people that we bring in specifically on different projects to help us where there's an opportunity to make sure that something is progressive in the way it's portraying people or, you know, by industry we might be looking at ensuring that there's nothing that could be offensive to  different groups of people, etc. And again, that doesn't make it foolproof because you know, humans -

Vanessa Vakharia  7:29  
But this is kind of like how Bridgerton had an intimacy consultant on set, which is so fucking cool. How cool is that? And yeah, the whole purpose was to make sure that all the actors were comfortable, that no past trauma was being brought up, like, if they were like, "I don't like being touched this way, because it triggers" - how fucking dope is that? Shondaland, obviously, I know. But it's like that idea. Right? I think that's really it, not assuming you know everything and being open to asking for help.

Candace Borland  7:55  
And being inclusive to as many perspectives as possible. Less about how are people going to see this, but like, how could different groups of people interpret this - who could this hurt, what could this perpetuate? Almost trying to question that way as much as possible.

Vanessa Vakharia  8:17  
I love it. Well, so you're in a position of power, so you get to kind of be like, this is what we're doing at this company. What advice do you have for maybe someone young in a startup or someone who's just starting in a media agency who kind of is like, "Oh, we don't have these things here"? How can they instigate change? Like, is there anything they can personally do to make their media landscape or the place they work for more inclusive?

Candace Borland  8:38  
I mean, it's so funny that you say I'm in a position of power because as we speak, I'm sitting here, I think I've worked with slippers on for the last 300 days ...

Vanessa Vakharia  8:47  
But that is powerful! That's amazing that you can still instigate change in slippers. (laughing)

Candace Borland  8:54  
What will I do when I have to wear shoes?

Vanessa Vakharia  8:57  
Oh, my God, I think I'm done with anything that's not a legging or sweatpant. I feel actually more empowered, being like, wow, I am so much more comfortable! It's like when I gave up heels, when I just made the decision to be like, I'm not someone who wears heels. And it was like a weight off my shoulders to be honest.

Candace Borland  9:16  
So next episode, follow up will be the future of pants.

Vanessa Vakharia  9:20  
Oh my God, can't wait.

Candace Borland  9:22  
But you know, how can someone instigate change? I mean, I think we try to, when I say that we hire with an eye to diversity. We're also hiring with an eye to different perspectives. We hire people from multi-disciplinary backgrounds. We want people who've done really weird and different things in their career, not just a whole bunch of people who've been in an advertising machine for forever. So I think everyone should realize as they join an organization, or start a company, their perspective is valuable. 

Candace Borland  9:53  
And even if they're getting some resistance, I would just encourage people to speak up. You'll feel better if you speak up and voice your opinions regardless, and then I mean further down the line, if you're speaking up and speaking up and you realize that an organization that you're working with, in no way reflects your values and opinions, I think that's something completely different. But I would say, for the most part, I'm going to assume positive intent, I do assume, and know certainly from my own experience, that most leaders, most companies absolutely want to do their best by the world at large, and by the people within their organization. And no one's perfect, and no one can know everything, and we value these different perspectives. So I love it, when people bring me ideas, bring me something that we can do better, etc. So for people joining companies, I'd say, you know, just raise your hand, speak up, give your opinion.

Vanessa Vakharia  10:49  
And that the end, you're really helping that company be more successful, because in today's landscape, if you're not being inclusive, if you're not being anti-racist, if you're not being actively socially active, you're kind of like, that's your own downfall. Right? Like, people really think that stuff is important. Now, it's funny, a lot of people say that, you know, people were saying this during Black Lives Matter that brands are only doing this for their own financial gain, right? They're like, "oh, they're just firing that person because of this, and they just want to look good."  But I think to your point, I mean, I can I can pose the question, but I actually think to your point that at the end of the day, like you said, most people have positive intent, most people actually want to be a part of an organization that aligns with their values. What would you say to that? If people were just kind of like, "this brand's just doing this for money, they don't actually believe in that shit"?

Candace Borland  11:41  
Yeah, absolutely. You know, people say that a lot. But I think, you know, at the end of the day, if 2020 showed us anything, I think it showed us that like, no matter what, no matter what you do, you're going to get someone's opinion, and it's going to be differing. So I think for leaders and for a lot of leadership, what that left you with, and if you know you're never going to please everyone, is just doing what you know in your heart of hearts is right, because you're going to get a comment either way. And so like, almost similarly, I would encourage brands that way - brands and their agencies and organizations and small founder-led companies: you know why you're doing it.

Vanessa Vakharia  12:21  
Yeah.

Candace Borland  12:22  
You know why you're doing it. And so you will probably get commentary one way or the other. But again, hopefully most of these companies, and I'm assuming most of these companies I'm assuming positive intent, have a ton of integrity. And so just do what what fits with your values, what you know is right.

Vanessa Vakharia  12:42  
So we've talked a lot about brands and ads, and I was actually wondering if off the cuff you had a few that listeners could check out just in case they're like, "I really want to see what like a progressive ad kind of looks like". Like, what was that Gillette one that was so good? Remember a few years ago when everyone was freaking out cuz it was like, so progressive, and it showed like, sensitive men, and people were like, "wow, oh my God!". The one that I love is the Barbie campaign that came out a few years ago - Barbie, which has always been like, we don't fucking care about damaging girls entire self esteem, finally had to step it up. And they created this amazing campaign about girls being intelligent, and tied it to their product. And I was like, wow. I thought that was a big shift for a brand that previously had not cared, to be forced by this media landscape to give a fuck if they wanted to keep selling their products. Is there anything you can think of? You'd mentioned a Nike one before?

Candace Borland  13:35  
As much as I'm tempted to only reference brands that we work on, I will not, I'll avoid those and I'll talk about other brands out in the world ... But I mean, yeah, one of the trailblazers, certainly for changing perceptions around the female body was Dove, the Real Beauty campaign. I think Patagonia as a company communicating a core belief, basically saying, "we're creating products that you should never have to buy again, because we believe in the environment", and then the way they use their communications, again, more long form entertainment than an advertisement for the product is a good example. I mean, Nike, absolutely - if you look at last year, and if you look at what they decided to do with Colin Kaepernick, and I think that's a big part of it, right? 

Candace Borland  14:34  
And you and I have talked about this off the record how, no matter what you do, there will be opinions. And so what I mean by that is whatever stance you take, or your brand POV is in today's world - and I think we've really experienced that, people have differing opinions and they're passionate about them - it will and can be polarizing to a certain percentage of people. So what you are left with then is just to be authentically who you are and communicate what you stand for. So I think something like the Kaepernick campaign is amazing, what Nike has done over the years for women was fantastic. And like, we worked with Nike for a number of years here in Canada and even campaigns they ran around the Hijabi Ballers here in Toronto and then the products that they created to enable those women to play sports kitted out in Nike gear.

Vanessa Vakharia  15:31  
I'm getting like goosebumps!  Because it is so amazing to think that people are always like, "oh, capitalism gross". But you can create a brand with a conscious and make such amazing change in the world because of how much power you have. It's so crazy.

Vanessa Vakharia  15:46  
Okay, so before we get to our final two questions, if you had to make recommendations to anyone making ads, or any media about STEM, specifically about girls or women in STEM, would you have any recommendations?

Candace Borland  15:59  
I think my recommendations are kind of in line with the conversation we've been having to date, which is just, I think as global citizens, we can recognize where maybe there are stereotypes being perpetuated, or there's an opportunity to make change. And if you look at entertainment media, we're seeing the power of like, even one film like Jingle Jangle -

Vanessa Vakharia  16:24  
Yes!  Great callout.

Candace Borland  16:25  
- the opportunity to change perception. So I think my only recommendation would be to, like, eyes wide open, have an awareness of those types of things and ask how if you're going to be communicating about women in STEM, yes there can be a downside, but there's also an opportunity. And so how can you authentically make the most of that opportunity to change culture and change beliefs, because so much of what we see out in the media informs culture and certainly is, and especially in young people, programs, the subconscious.

Vanessa Vakharia  16:58  
Yeah. Okay, final two questions that I asked every guest. Number one, what would you say to someone who doesn't think they're a math person?

Candace Borland  17:08  
Oh, interesting. So I, I've worked in branded communication for a number of years now, I work in a creative industry - we do math everyday. Everyone's a math person. Math is so inherent to life. I just wouldn't label yourself.

Vanessa Vakharia  17:28  
Love!

Candace Borland  17:28  
Why are we putting labels on? Just get comfortable with this, it's such a part of everyday life! I bet you - like, if you wear a Fitbit, you're engaging with math. Surprise. So I would just say, don't speak that over yourself.

Vanessa Vakharia  17:45  
I love it. Okay. And lastly, if there was one thing you could change about the way math is taught in school, do you have anything? Oh, wow, the face, she's making a face guys, she has a lot of things, she has a long list!

Candace Borland  17:57  
I think what could be interesting is like, certainly when I was going through school, everything was the separate subject, you know, it's like the history and then there's science, and then there's math, and then there's etc, etc. But I think, you know, like we were just talking about - math is integrated, and so much of what we do. And so maybe taking a much more comprehensive and integrated approach to math would make it feel far less dry and intimidating. If we realized absolutely every way that we use math - like, I have really great friends that own amazing fashion brands, and guess what they're doing all day: math.

Vanessa Vakharia  18:39  
It's so true.

Candace Borland  18:40  
You know, in designing bridal dresses. So I think that there's just so many different ways to show how it's integrated in all of everyday life and how important it is.

Vanessa Vakharia  18:51  
I love it. And you know what, there was this whole trend actually, a few years ago, where people were like, "yeah, interdisciplinary, like we should have in geography, you can be discussing how far places are in kilometers and miles", and it kind of just fizzled off. And I think everyone was just like, no. So I think that's a really, really good point. Because math is obviously often isolated into its own room where you're like, "I only do math in this room, and if I don't want to sit in this room for the rest of my life, I don't need to know math, so..."

Candace Borland  19:16  
Or even if we're learning it on its own, I think giving young people an awareness of everywhere that it's going to appear. And so why you need to use these or learn these tools.

Vanessa Vakharia  19:29  
Yeah, like why don't they have a fashion designer come in and speak to math class!

Vanessa Vakharia  19:34  
Well, Candace, this has been amazing. You've given us so much to think about, I think it's been such a great conversation and way to shed light on all the ways that media pervades our life, and more importantly, why that matters and why we need to start changing it. And the power that media has is often the most influential force on young people especially, and if we want to change math culture that is a really, really big area that change needs to happen. So thank you for sharing so much with us - it was a pleasure having you and I'll talk to you soon.

Candace Borland  20:08  
Amazing, thanks. This was fun!

(outro)

Vanessa Vakharia  20:10
There you have it right from the president of one of North America's largest creative agencies, you CAN make a difference. Speak up, use your voice, we need you. You can find out more about what Anomaly does at anomaly.com.

Vanessa Vakharia  20:24  
If something in this episode inspired you please tweet us at @maththerapy, and you can also follow me personally at @themathguru on Instagram or Twitter. Math Therapy is hosted by me Vanessa Vakharia, produced by Sabina Wex and edited by David Kochberg.  Our theme song is WVV by Goodnight, Sunrise which is actually my band. If you know someone who needs math therapy or needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please share this podcast and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use; those things actually makes such a big difference. I am determined to change the culture surrounding math, and to give math like a massive makeover and I truly need your help, so spread the word! That's all for this week - stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday. 

(outtake)

Vanessa Vakharia  21:11  
That's that's a good list, that's a good start.

Candace Borland  21:13  
Yeah, some examples of brands doing progressive things with like, you know their ethos and who they are starting with their product.

Candace Borland  21:22  
(high-pitched noise in the background)

Candace Borland  21:22  
There's a vacuum outside it happens every day at 11.

Vanessa Vakharia  21:28  
(laughing) Ok - we have, we only have two final questions left anyways.

David Kochberg  21:32  
Is that gonna be a temporary thing?

Vanessa Vakharia  21:33  
Wait it's gone ... no it's there.

Candace Borland  21:36  
He's moving. He's moving down the hall but he's still here ...

Vanessa Vakharia  21:39  
(laughing)