Abby Govindan  0:01  (intro quote)
Intelligence manifests itself in different ways. Just because his wife is really good at STEM doesn't mean that Lin Manuel Miranda is the less impressive one - you know how much intelligence it takes to like write several musicals that end up going on to win Tonys and awards?

Abby Govindan  0:15  (intro quote)
Even the way we speak about math should change. All you have to do to be a math person is decide you're a math person.

Vanessa Vakharia  0:22  (show intro)
Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru. And you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that helps guests work through their math traumas one problem at a time. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.

Vanessa Vakharia  0:47  (episode intro)
Okay, so I know I'm not the only one who spent all of 2020 doom-scrolling social media fishing for clickbait. Admit it. Well, we all know that usually fishing expeditions can lead to a big load of nothing but sometimes you stumble on gold. And today, my friends, I bring you a hunk of gold straight from the belly of the Twitter beast. Abby Govindan is a South Asian comedian turned Twitter sensation who uses comedy to break stereotypes, including those that tell us that all South Asians need to be, like doctors and shit. Today we talk about something that I've never even considered before: can women actually break stereotypes by fulfilling them? Well, we're about to find out. 

Vanessa Vakharia  1:26  
Abby! Welcome to the podcast.

Abby Govindan  1:29  
Thank you so much for having me! This is fun.

Vanessa Vakharia  1:31  
This is so much fun. And I want to actually tell our listeners how we met because it's so fucking weird. I was actually this morning thinking, you know, I feel like it's so of the pandemic because we met over Twitter, and I'm like, I normally don't like meet people over Twitter. But what happened was, Abby had tweeted, "I am a woman in STEM". And then she like wrote out all the letters of STEM, and she wrote "S - Stupid. T - Tstupid. E - Extremely stupid. M - Math (I cannot do it)." And I was like, oh my god. Oh my god. Is she okay?! So I immediately reached out to Abby and was like, "Girl, no", because the second I see a woman tweet about her inability to do math, I get very concerned. I'm like, "Oh my god, she has math trauma. I don't want her to feel incapable". So I reached out to Abby, and before you new it, we decided that she needed to come on Math Therapy. So I want to just start by asking you why did you tweet this out?

Abby Govindan  2:32  
Why did I tweet this out? Good question. There's such a push for like feminism and female equality and like showing that women are strong and look, I am a feminist through and through. I don't want any bitches to like, you know, cut this pilot and take some sound bites and be like "Abby Govindan is cancelled". So I'm a feminist through and through, very grateful for the feminist movement. However, like I do think that along with this feminist movement, there's come this push for women to constantly prove themselves as smart and intelligent and capable. And all women are smart, and intelligent or capable, just in different ways. And sometimes you have to break stereotypes by succumbing to them. And in this sense, I am a woman who 100% can't do STEM and like, I'm an Indian woman who can't do STEM, like, that's okay. You know, I think it's really brave of me to be an Indian girl who's like, "fuck STEM". That's a joke, obviously. 

Vanessa Vakharia  3:28  
(laughing)

Abby Govindan  3:28  
But yeah, that's part of the reason that I tweeted this. I just wanted to be like, hey, women are strong and capable and powerful and intelligent, but some of us just can't do math and that's okay! Like, it's not that big of a deal,

Vanessa Vakharia  3:42  
Okay, so a couple of things that are really interesting here. So first of all, I love the idea of almost breaking stereotypes by owning them, or not allowing yourself to be controlled by stereotypes by owning them and we'll get into that in a second, but I want to back up a second because - so for full transparency, I'm not like "oh my God, we need to get out there and everyone needs to do STEM and every woman needs to do STEM". No - but I want every woman to have the choice. And if a woman is really like "No, I just can't do it". Or if anyone is just like "No, I just can't do it. I don't have it in me. I was like born this way and I can't do STEM", I get worried because I always think there's something more to that, because truthfully, I think we can - like you said, everyone's smart. Everyone can do whatever they want. It's where you choose to place your focus. And I want to back up to you saying I can't do STEM, weren't you like a Chem major or something?

Abby Govindan  4:33  
I was - I was a Chem major for a year and a half. I, okay -

Vanessa Vakharia  4:37  
So hold on!! So there's like already - what do you mean you can't do STEM?!

Abby Govindan  4:41  
Right, right ... so I can't do STEM in the full sense in terms of like, I didn't survive a chem major because -

Vanessa Vakharia  4:51  
But why did you decide to go into Chem? Like what even prompted that?

Abby Govindan  4:55  
I was pre-med for a long time and that's a whole other - 

Vanessa Vakharia  4:58  
Girl, what?!?! Okay, I can't even - like you're not pre-med unless you can at least somewhat do math and science!!

Abby Govindan  5:05  
Oh, for sure. Yeah. And even I mean, I switch to a psychology major, which is like the most basic major to switch to after you decide that pre-med isn't for you. But I'm really good at statistics, and I love statistics, and that's a form of math.

Vanessa Vakharia  5:20  
Abby.  Abby.

Abby Govindan  5:20  
Yeah, but I was pre med., and this is a trauma that I work through in my stand up comedy as well. Because growing up, my mom's a physician and like, you know, every one and their mother, literally, and their father is a doctor in the Indian community. And so yeah, growing up, my family was always like, you're gonna be like your mother - my mom, props to her from a very young age was like, "No, don't be a doctor. That's like, so boring, so cliche", you know, but she wanted me to do something along the lines of law or business. I took a full 180 and went into comedy and entertainment. But yeah, I mean, I can do some math, it just wasn't my strong suit so I definitely was like, I cannot make a living out of this. Like, if I don't even enjoy doing it in school, I'm not going to enjoy doing it nine to five, I'm not going to enjoy med school, you know.

Vanessa Vakharia  6:12  
Right.  And I love that aspect of choice. And like, it kind of sounds like - this is I guess where I get caught up in the semantics of it of like, it's not really that you "can't do it". But you made the choice to be like, no, this is not gonna make me happy. 

Abby Govindan  6:28  
Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia  6:28  
I want to talk about like a bit more about the stereotypes, because you're totally right. So I'm half Indian, and I totally get that vibe. How did the stereotype of Indians being good at math or, like you said, like every other Indian being a doctor - how did that affect you growing up? And how did that affect the way you saw yourself as part of - or not part of - the STEM community? Did it affect you?

Abby Govindan  6:51  
Yeah, I mean, for sure. Growing up - and I talk about this a lot in my stand up and you know, I've done a few interviews and I've given a few speeches, but I really talk about how growing up I really felt out of place, I was the black sheep of the Indian community. And every Indian kid will be like, "I was the black sheep of the Indian community", especially the comedians, but when I say black sheep, I truly mean black sheep. Like a lot of Indian comedians went into medicine, went into engineering, and then figured out later in their life that they wanted to do comedy, but like, I've been a disappointment from the get-go. I've always been the black sheep, I always feel like I was the Kim Kardashian of my temple because the kids fucking hated me but they were always curious to see like, what trick shit I would pull next, and all the aunties would like be like "Abby's parents are really bad parents because she was wearing a bikini and she posted a picture on Instagram" and stuff and like, kind of from the get go, everyone is kind of like "this bitch is fucking insane". It's cool now, to kind of be in the midst of my own rise, because now I have a lot of people who are quite literally my middle school and high school bullies who are like, "Oh my God, we always knew you could do it. Like we always knew you were destined for greatness". And I'm like, "No, the fuck you didn't" because I remember when I first started comedy, a whole bunch of these like STEM Indians were just like - okay, I definitely don't want to bash Indian people who go into STEM, like, if that's your passion, go for it. But when I first started comedy, a whole bunch of STEM Indians from my hometown, I remember hearing that they were calling me delusional. They were like, "oh, man, she's gonna fail. Like, this is fucking hilarious and we all get to be there to watch". And I'm not failing. I'm doing fucking fine.

Vanessa Vakharia  8:38  
But do you find that - what do you think about the fact - I'm totally making this up - but like, do you feel like the pressure to be good at something kind of made you rebel and be like, "Fuck that"? Because I hear that a lot from people in South Asian communities that it's like - I feel the pressure to be like, well, you're supposed to go into this, like, wouldn't that make someone like you'd be like, "go fuck yourself". (laughing) Do you think that played a role?

Abby Govindan  9:01  
Yeah, I mean, the pressure was there. And I mean, a lot of the pressure I can't even blame my fellow Indian peers because a lot of the pressure was put on them by their parents.

Vanessa Vakharia  9:11  
Yeah, it's like a cycle. And how did that lead to comedy? How did you end up here?

Abby Govindan  9:16  
Yeah, so I was obsessed with comedy ever since I was a kid, like I used to sneak my parents' laptop so like, they would go to bed at about 10:30 every night and during summer nights pretty much on the clock I used to go downstairs at 10:35, I used to steal their laptop, and I don't know if you remember the very old like 2008-2009 MacBooks like, yelled when they were turned on when you press the button? So I used to account for that by like, turning it on downstairs in the room furthest from my parents and then putting a pillow on the laptop immediately and then bringing it up to my room and I used to watch SNL - my parents hated that I watched SNL, they were like, "Oh, it's such a bad influence. That's an adult show". I used to watch Russell Peters, a huge influence on who I am today in that I wouldn't exist, pretty much no Indian comic would exist, without the path that Russell Peters trailblazed for us.

Vanessa Vakharia  10:17  
Okay, wait. So let's get back to math stuff. Because, you know, you were talking at the very beginning about how this whole idea of talking about stereotypes in a way that you're owning them, and one of those was tweeting out in a joking way, the idea that you're not good at math, and that, like Indian women don't need to be good at math. Do you think there's anything bad that can come from reinforcing these stereotypes and joking about them? What do you think, do you think that helps dismantle the stereotype? Do you not care? Do you think there's damage that can come from it?

Abby Govindan  10:50  
I mean, I think that it's a double edged sword. I'm saying here on your podcast, you know, that I think women should sometimes break stereotypes by fulfilling stereotypes, but -

Vanessa Vakharia  11:01  
But what do you mean? Like, what does that mean? Break stereotypes by fulfilling stereotypes?

Abby Govindan  11:05  
Well, we don't have to always be like, empowered. We don't always have to be powerful. And you know, there are different measures of intelligence - like Lin Manuel Miranda is this amazingly successful, talented, writer, playwright, singer. And I learned actually that his wife graduated with summa cum laude from MIT with a degree in chemical engineering. And she worked in engineering for a while and then she was like, I don't really want to do this. So she went to Fordham, my alma mater, Fordham law and studied law and now she's a practicing family lawyer. And I was telling one of my co-workers once I was like, "Lin Manuel Miranda is so achieved like that, I wouldn't even believe that his wife is like, 100 times more impressive than him". And my friend was like, "What makes you say that?", and I was like, "well, she graduated, like summa cum laude with a chemical engineering degree from MIT". And she was like, "intelligence manifests itself in different ways. Just because his wife is really good at STEM doesn't mean that Lin Manuel Miranda is the less impressive one like, you know, how much intelligence it takes to like write several musicals that winn Tonys and awards?" And that's when I really had to confront my own bias, and in some part that might be because of my upbringing, where I was made to believe that any degree that wasn't STEM is going to result in poverty, you know?

Vanessa Vakharia  12:28  
You're totally right in that way. Like, we often associate mathematical intelligence as the "superior intelligence". Like, I love that you just said that. Because with Lin Manuel Miranda, we would never be like, wow, he's so "smart". People are like, "he's so creative. He's so talented", but we don't use the word smart. But I really think that is important to say, I want to just take a moment and really pause on it, the idea that we don't always have to be proving stereotypes wrong, I think is one of the most empowering things you've said today. There is nothing wrong with going out there and saying, "I suck at math". So I want to make that clear. If you suck at math, and you want to say that, you're right, I don't want to be like, "Oh my god, like, don't say that, yes you can like bla bla bla bla bla" - I hate when people are made to feel like they're incapable of something by other people. I hate that. I don't care if you're a woman, I don't care if you're a man, I don't care if you're a fucking dog, like whatever. But you're right, we don't need to always be proving to like, really, let's be honest - to the patriarchy that we're capable of more than they tell us we're capable of, like that's an extra baggage we don't fucking need. So like, from that perspective, I really do like what you're saying.

Vanessa Vakharia  13:34  
And you know what - you had kind of mentioned that the reason you like tweeting stuff like this out is because you love how mad people get when they're like, "Ah! You're making all women look bad!" And you're like, "Fuck you. I didn't say anything about all women. I said something about myself!".

Abby Govindan  13:47  
Yeah, exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia  13:48  
And I love that. Because if a man tweeted that, we wouldn't be like, "just another guy making guys look bad". No, we'd be like, this particular guy does not like STEM, whereas with women, it's different. The standards are different. So I think it's cool to be saying stuff like you're saying, and just spark this type of conversation, because it really does make you think of the idea that we do feel so much pressure to break stereotypes. And I don't know that men feel the same way, like I don't know that they feel this constant need to be proving that a stereotype isn't true. So I think that's really, really cool. And Twitter is so hard, because there's no context on Twitter. So you just see that tweet, but the context behind it, and like the value behind it is really, really cool. So I think it's important and that's cool that that's the driving force of your comedy, to be using humor to be like, "why are you so pissed off that I'm saying this? Let's examine why you're pissed".

Abby Govindan  14:43  
Yeah, there's no nuance on Twitter. I always say, because my friends are like, "Twitter seems like so much fun". And I'm like, "I don't know about that". And they're like, why? And I'm like, well, it's just so annoying. Like, I like tweeted out a picture of my parents, like a screenshot of my parents texting me because they found Narcan - Narcan is the drug that you put into people who have opioid overdoses, it's life saving, and I carry it for that reason because in New York City, they hand it out for free because there's such an opioid crisis. My parents found it, and they texted me angrily. And my parents both text, like they're both first of all fluent in English, but they both text like you took a Daily Mail article title and like, fed it through Google Translate a few times in that they leave out key words, you know? It's just like an amber alert. And I tweeted that, and then all these Indian kids were like, "she's making fun of her parents broken English", like, "You should be grateful your parents came here with $3 in their pocket". And I was like, No, my parents are fluent in English, they speak more English than I do as a matter of fact, and like, if I were a white kid, you would not be up my ass like this. So even the most well meaning of people can uphold stereotypes in this sense. And there's so many parents that did come here without knowing English, and they do struggle with the language but like, my parents absolutely are not like that.

Vanessa Vakharia  16:04  
Well, holy shit. Thank you so much for like sharing so much of yourself. We're down to our final two questions. Number one, what would you say to someone who declares that they are not a math person?

Abby Govindan  16:20  
I mean, it depends on why you're declaring yourself as not a math person. I say if you tried math, and you don't like it, and it's not where your passions lie, then yeah, you're not a math person. But if you genuinely want to overcome it, if you see yourself doing this for the rest of your life, but you're just struggling with some concepts, don't drop out, don't say you're not a math person just because you feel obligated to say you're not a math person if this is what you want to do, if it's what you enjoy doing, then you are a math person - all you have to do to be a math person is decide you're a math person.

Vanessa Vakharia  16:48  
Abby!  That's so inspiring!!

Abby Govindan  16:51  
It's much like being a comedian. Like I always say, there's no LSAT for being a comedian, you just decide you're one and then you are one and like, there's no authority to question it.

Vanessa Vakharia  17:02  
I love that. That really so speaks to imposter syndrome though, that idea of just declaring. Okay, final question, what is the one thing you would change about the way math is taught in school?

Abby Govindan  17:12  
I don't think there's enough outreach to women and people of color, specifically. I mean, I went to a predominantly white and Asian school. So our math classes were about as diverse as you can get, but I have a lot of friends who grew up in neighborhoods where schools were underfunded, and they had STEM programs but they weren't funded, and the ones that were funded, they didn't do enough outreach to kids who didn't see themselves doing STEM. There's so many kids who are brought up with this ideology where they think they're unintelligent, but they're not actually unintelligent, they just don't have the resources.

Vanessa Vakharia  17:51  
100%.

Abby Govindan  17:53  
Yeah, tutoring, they don't have a mentor to tell them that they could do anything that they put their mind to. And so if I could change anything, I would definitely change the way that it is advertised. Because typically, especially with high level math classes, I remember in high school our teachers were like, "Don't take this class, unless you're serious about it". Like unless you can really do math, but I think, even the way we speak about math should change, you know?

Vanessa Vakharia  18:18  
Oh, 100% - I totally know those teachers that are like, "just so you know, this is a really hard class, and most people fail", and you're like, why would you fucking announce your class that way?! Like, what??

Abby Govindan  18:29  
Yeah.  And you know, I had two really good teachers in high school, they were really good about, going through the concepts and doing outreach. And in that sense it improved how many people felt confident taking the class. I remember in high school senior, the kids in my grade were so smart that by the time we got to senior year, like 20 of them had finished pretty much every math class you could take. So one really good teacher started a class called post calculus, where it's like stuff after calculus, which you don't even get into in some cases until masters or grad school, right. So that class was really hard. And a lot of people failed out. But I remember the people who failed out weren't even mad about it. They were like, "you know, the teacher really went over every concept, everything was explained really well to us. It's just something that I couldn't grasp personally and so I had to drop the class" and like, I think that's how we should talk about math. Like we shouldn't be frustrated with ourselves, we should just like examine the situation as is and make a decision based off that and be like, it is what it is, you know?

Vanessa Vakharia  19:33  
I love it. Such a good answer. Abby, it was such a treat. I cannot wait to come see you like, DO comedy. If you're ever doing a virtual show, let me know because I need to like, yeah, I need to start watching comedy, so I can start figuring out what MY comedian identity is going to be. And like you said, I've always wanted to be a stand up comic, but like, all I need to do is just say, I'm a fucking comedian. So you heard it here first. I'm a comedian!

Abby Govindan  19:55  
You're already a comedian! I mean, you've got a podcast, that's usually the first step for most comedians, so ...

Vanessa Vakharia  20:00  
Yeah, and it's fucking hilarious (laughing).

Abby Govindan  20:01  
It is a really good podcast (laughing)

Vanessa Vakharia  20:03  
Anyways. (laughing) You're the best - thanks for coming on and I'll see you on the other side!

Abby Govindan  20:07  
Yeah, thanks for having me on!

Vanessa Vakharia  20:09  
Bye!

Vanessa Vakharia  20:11  (outro)
Holy shit. Wow. Honestly I have never thought about how much emotional labor it is to feel like you constantly need to break these giant stereotypes for like, the good of the universe. Like WOW, that is a fucking load to bear and I'm glad that today I've sort of taken that off my shoulders. I mean, break 'em if you want to leave 'em if you don't. To see what crazy tweet of hers goes viral next, hit up Abby on twitter at @AbbyGov. 

Vanessa Vakharia  20:37  (show outro)
If something in this episode inspired you please tweet us at @MathTherapy. And you can also follow me personally at @TheMathGuru on Instagram or Twitter. Math Therapy is hosted by me Vanessa Vakharia, produced by Sabina Wex and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme song is WVV by Goodnight, Sunrise which is actually my band. If you know someone who needs Math Therapy or needs to hear someone else getting Math Therapy, please share this podcast and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use - those things actually makes such a big difference. I am determined to change the culture surrounding math and to give not like a massive makeover and I truly need your help! So spread the word. That's all for this week. Stay tuned for our next episode out next Thursday.