Intro

Vanessa Vakharia 0:07

I don't like being interviewed. it's just so much energy to answer all those questions.

David Kochberg 0:12

Well, that's, we're off to a great start already.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:16

K, go.

David Kochberg 0:17

Hello and welcome to this week's episode of math therapy. I am your host, David Kochberg, and today I'm interviewing the normal host of Math Therapy, Vanessa Vakharia AKA The Math Guru. And, uh, why am I talking to you? Why am I hosting today? You rightfully ask? Well, Vanessa happens to have amalgamated her life's work into a book. What is that book titled? It's called Math Therapy. So, uh, so you know what we thought here, the Math Therapy team of the two of us, was we thought, you know, why don't we flip the mic around actually we're using a bi-directional mic. And, why don't I grill The Math Guru herself, is this coming out when the book is out, is the book out?

Vanessa Vakharia 1:21

Yes.

David Kochberg 1:22

The book is out. So we want to talk about the book. So, um, was that a good, was that a good intro?

Vanessa Vakharia 1:27

That was so long.

David Kochberg 1:29

Oh, all right. Well maybe I'll edit some out.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:31

I don't know if anyone's still listening. All right.

David Kochberg 1:33

So I want to start with the real hard hitting journalism.

Vanessa Vakharia 1:39

Because that's what this podcast is if anything, people come here for the hard hitting journalism.

David Kochberg 1:43

Yes. So what I want to,

Vanessa Vakharia 1:45

I'd like to make this 20 minutes and we're at three.

David Kochberg 1:48

I am the host. And you are my guest.

How does Vanessa annoy David?

David Kochberg 1:55

So you interviewed me. Is that coming out, has that been out?

Vanessa Vakharia 1:59

That's going to be after this one, David.

David Kochberg 2:00

So in the next one, right, so the next interview, since you didn't ask me this, I would like to start by asking you. What do you think most annoys me about producing you.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:13

Okay. Wow. I thought this is going to be about the book.

David Kochberg 2:17

You think this is some puff piece?

Vanessa Vakharia 2:20

Okay. What do I think annoys you most about working with me? Fuck, where to start. I actually do think I know what it is. And I think it's that I'm a Gemini and you're a Taurus. And so I want to do everything really, really fast. And you want to take your time and do it. So I think it actually really annoys you when I try to speed through things like say, I want to make this episode 20 minutes and we're already at three or whatever, just like put on the mic and just record when you're trying to like make, you know, do quality control. I think it's my speed and lack of attention to, my attention deficit? Am I right?

David Kochberg 3:00

Great answer.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:01

Do you have an answer as to what annoys you most that I,

David Kochberg 3:03

We don't have time for that. But great answer and highly accurate.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:07

Okay.

David Kochberg 3:07

Thank you for your vulnerability.

The Math Therapy origin story

David Kochberg 3:10

All right. So extremely briefly, how did Math Therapy start and how did it evolve into what is destined to be a best selling book?

Vanessa Vakharia 3:20

It's really hard when you ask a question like that and preface it with very briefly.

David Kochberg 3:24

You are the one who said you want this over with already! Fine take as much time as you want!

Vanessa Vakharia 3:31

Okay, how did Math Therapy start? Okay. So in brief, I mean, first of all, I've been teaching math forever and ever. I've been tutoring math for, 20 years now. and I have always been doing math therapy with students without having an official name for it. And by that I mean, I have always been very, very invested in helping students build better relationships with math. Through healing underlying math trauma. So really focused on the emotional component of math learning. Now that being said, somehow somewhere along the way, I started doing a lot of press about math anxiety and talking to news outlets about math teaching. And one day, me and my PR person at the time, Sabina, who is the original creator of this podcast, we were at Global Television and I was doing an interview as normal and I was on air with this guy, the host, this man. And basically anytime I go on air with a host, and this is so the stereotype about journalism, but it's true, I go on and the camera starts rolling and the host will start reading from their script. "And here with me right now is Vanessa Vakharia, the Math Guru. Oh my God". And then they'll start going into a math trauma response. Like for real, they'll be like, "oh my God math. Oh, I can't believe we're talking about math. I hated math". But this time was different. Because this particular host went one step further. And he said, "I hated math so much in school, and that's why I became a journalist". That's normal, they all say that. Then he said, "I'm so bad at math. I need my toes to count to 20". On live television, national television across Canada, takes off his shoe, takes off his sock, and then proceeds to count to 20 on his bare feet on TV. And I, I was stunned. I thought to myself, what the actual fuck, but number two, I thought, I can't believe you're so comfortable on air just saying to millions of Canadians that you're so bad at uh, at math that, you can't count to 20. Because that's not, we know that's not true, he can obviously count to 20 without his toes. And it was just that reinforcement of that myth, you know, of that idea that we're comfortable bragging and about not being good at math, but obviously he was so traumatized that like, you would just do that. It was just crazy. Anyways. I left, and Sabina looked at me and she said, oh my God, these people need math therapy. And I was like, oh my God. And then the podcast was born. So that's how the podcast started. And briefly it started. If you, if you've been a long time listener, first time caller. Uh, sorry.

David Kochberg 6:04

Still don't know how to use that, do you.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:07

Sorry, Zak. Um, if you've been a longtime listener, you'll know that in the first few seasons, I actually interviewed people with math trauma. So I was interviewing people who were anxious around math and had bad experiences with math and slowly that morphed into talking to people in math, people who liked math about math anxiety and about what they thought led to it. And then that morphed into its current state, which is really talking to educators about all the work that surrounds the hard work of healing math trauma. Student centered practices, representation, equity, problem-solving, productive struggle, and just realizing what a village it takes to heal math trauma. So then from there. I started doing professional development on it because there was this real need, and, you know, I was getting all these emails from teachers, listening to the podcast, being like, how do I use this information in my classroom? So I put together a five step process based on what the work I've been doing with students for 20 years, the steps I actually go through on how to identify math trauma, prevent it, heal it, rewrite students' math stories, measure their progress in a way that isn't just reliant on grades. And then I wrote a book.

David Kochberg 7:11

Great job

Vanessa Vakharia 7:12

That wasn't bad, actually,

David Kochberg 7:14

I wouldn't call it brief, but

Vanessa Vakharia 7:16

It took six minutes.

David Kochberg 7:16

You had to cover a lot.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:17

I had to cover a lot.

David Kochberg 7:18

And

How Vanessa feels about her book

David Kochberg 7:19

how are, at this very moment, the book is not out, but it's coming out,

Vanessa Vakharia 7:24

David!

David Kochberg 7:24

When we're talking about, because you can't put yourself into the future. I mean right now at this, fine, pulling back the curtain on how a podcast gets made. We're recording this in advance.

Vanessa Vakharia 7:34

Fine.

David Kochberg 7:34

So how do you feel right now at this moment? Are you nervous? Are you excited or, um, in a panic, or what do you, what are your feelings about the book coming out?

Vanessa Vakharia 7:44

I'm not in a panic. I will say like, I'm proud. Because I have, you know, we talk about math trauma, I have real writing trauma. I mean, I won't go too in depth into it, but I remember like, to me, the idea of writing an essay or writing a cohesive story was the most stressful thing for me in high school. I remember we would have English exams and you hand wrote them, like we hand write exams, you don't have a computer or anything. Also, it was the early two thousands. Anyways. I would sit there and there'd always be the essay question on the exam. And in my mind, I would be like, if I just can avoid writing this essay question, maybe it'll like disappear. So I would answer all the other questions on the exam. And I'd wait and I'd wait. And then when I'd have like eight minutes left in the exam, I'd be like, fuck, I've got to do this essay question. And I'd always just completely bomb it because I couldn't, I mean, eight minutes, you can't write an essay in eight minutes and I just, I hated it, it, just even thinking about it stresses me out. And then that really culminated when I did my master's degree, I remember the reason I didn't want to do it is I knew I would have to write a master's thesis, but I did it anyway. And my writing of my master's thesis, which by the way, it's called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math, and I was so excited about it, but the process of writing it nearly destroyed me. Like I'm not, I won't get into the nitty gritty, but like my mental health went down the drain. It was so horrible. It was, oh my God. Just even the research and that, them being so, so pedantic and not being, I remember there was a whole fuss because I used the word adolescent instead of teenager. And literally because of that word, I had to do a whole extra semester. I can't. And I'm sorry, this isn't making sense, but I remember it was like

David Kochberg 9:25

But the trauma's coming through.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:26

Yeah. It was, it was horrible. It was just like the nitpicking over every single word and the punctuation and the dah, dah, dah. And I was just like, I. It was, it was a lot. So when it came time to write this book, I was really excited about, I wanted to create something for educators to use. Like I wanted, I. I really wanted to do it. But I was really scared. I was like, I really hope that trauma doesn't come back. I hope I don't freeze. Cause that's what would happen. And I

David Kochberg 9:51

Just the task of writing?

Vanessa Vakharia 9:52

The task of, of putting, this is why I have a podcast is because I like to just blah. You know, like it's, it's hard to think of story through from beginning to end and plan it out and make it make sense and, and cover all the important points. That idea of making something cohesive and concise is so stressful to me. And I was just, I had the best editor. I'm, I, I'm actually getting emotional. So Debbie, if you're listening, I had the best editor at Corwin, Debbie Hardin, who just got me. She got it. She got, she was like, just write stuff down, let it flow and I'll edit it, which is how my relationship with you works. But I will say this. It's not like I just gave her a bunch of garbage and she edited. Okay. That's not what happened.

David Kochberg 10:40

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:41

The fact that she said that in the first place, allowed me to unlock, um, It's not like I'm a bad writer or a storyteller, honestly. Like I'm a bit all over the place. Fine. And I need some spit shining as we all know. But, but it allowed, knowing I didn't have to give her a perfect finished product, it unlocked at all. And I was able to just sit and write and let the stuff come out. Just knowing someone was going to look it over and, and fix it up if it needed to, or make suggestions or I've, just not knowledge like unlocked. And actually, this is so funny we're talking about this now because I'm like, this I feel is, it's the same thing as when I say when students know that the answer isn't the goal they're able to actually tackle the problem. And that's what it was because I knew that a finished product wasn't the goal. The goal was just to get some stuff out there and to start, it just made the writing process so much less stressful and I really enjoyed it and we, it was just, anyways, I just, Debbie is, I can't thank her enough. What was the question? Oh, how do I feel now? So my point is, my point is after all that, I'm actually proud that I wrote this book because I thought it was something I might never be able to do. Because I was like, I was so traumatized by my master's thesis. I don't know that I ever wanted to, I always thought if I wrote a book, I'll just get you to ghost write it right? That's always been my plan. I'll just say a bunch of shit and you'll write it up for me. So the fact that I wrote it out, um, and did it, so I'm proud. That's number one.

David Kochberg 12:02

Good.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:02

And I'm excited because I know the reactions I got to, like when I talk to teachers and the professional development, and so many teachers are writing, emailing me saying they're using all my stuff in their classrooms, now I'm going to have something really cohesive and concrete to give them with like, you know, in an hour professional development, there's only so much you can talk about. This, like goes so into it. It really shows them how to do math therapy, how to turn their classrooms into a math therapy classroom. So I'm excited. And then also, obviously a part of me is like, is anyone going to read this book? So there's, there's that part, but I've, I mean, there's no point in thinking about that. I think it's funny, like in today's world or you get so stuck on the, like, and now I have to promote this thing. I'm like, I don't want to get into that really. I just want to.

David Kochberg 12:43

Even though you just filmed 20 hours of content.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:46

Yeah.

David Kochberg 12:47

But yes, I know

Vanessa Vakharia 12:48

I'm trying to do it out of excitement. Like I'm, so I'm excited. I'm not panicked. I'm just like, oh, I hope people buy it and like it I guess. But I'm excited to like, it's, it's pretty cool that this all came from my own math trauma when I was in school. And now. Yeah.

David Kochberg 13:09

That's great. That's, I'm glad to hear that you're proud and excited and it makes sense to be nervous. And the way you wrapped it up in terms of the roots of it, I was thinking about that idea of the wounded healer. Oh,

Vanessa Vakharia 13:24

Because Chiron is the asteroid that represents the wounded healer in a birth chart.

David Kochberg 13:31

Not necessarily where I was going with it.

Vanessa Vakharia 13:33

But I just want to say mine is in my 12th house, which is all about the subconscious, which means it is like my thing in this life to be a wound, like the wounded healing for me comes from like the subconscious, which has past trauma. And I heal through healing other people's subconsciouses. Sorry. Okay. Yeah.

David Kochberg 13:52

Can't resist taking over, taking control. It's alright. Yeah. We're like two control freaks, but in very opposing ways. But, yeah. Okay. Sure. What was I going to say?

Vanessa Vakharia 14:01

I don't know.

David Kochberg 14:01

I've lost my train of thought.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:02

That's a hard thing with the podcast is when the, when the guests throws you off course, you've gotta be able to either keep going with it.

David Kochberg 14:09

And you are a seasoned professional, whereas this is my first, my first guest hosting.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:13

You're doing really great. Actually you're getting great info to me, I can't believe I've been talking.

David Kochberg 14:16

I love how before this, you were like, you do all the talking. I don't want to talk at all. And it's like, you're the guest.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:21

Next question.

David Kochberg 14:23

Uh, no, I do, I was going to say that I do think that that is what makes, I mean sure, social media and creating content and stuff can always feel kind of artificial, cause you have to, there is an artifice to creating stuff for promoting, but you have to do that, that's part of it. But I think overall, especially in the podcast, because of the way you talk to people, your authenticity comes through and it's clear that you really care about this stuff. And it's, it's common that people get into something because they feel connected to it emotionally and empathy comes from having gone through something similar to the people that you're empathizing with. And so, thank you for sharing all of that backstory because I think it is a really interesting context.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:08

Thank you. And that's why I always say that math teachers with their own math trauma are some of the most powerful teachers because they can empathize with their students.

David Kochberg 15:16

Agreed. I also, the producer in me can't stop thinking that I, I'm worried your voice is quieter than mine because you're further from the mic than me, but I don't know.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:25

But I'm louder than you.

David Kochberg 15:26

You normally are, but I find in this, for some reason you being the guest, you're like a lot more,

Vanessa Vakharia 15:30

All right

David Kochberg 15:31

reserved.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:32

I'm not being reserved at all.

David Kochberg 15:33

Don't hit the table, please. Uh, all right, moving

Vanessa reflects on her career

David Kochberg 15:37

right along. So you've interviewed some of the biggest names in math education.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:40

Oh!

David Kochberg 15:41

From Jo Boaler to Peter Liljedahl to the creators of the Netflix Christmas STEM movie, Jingle Jangle, all of whom I now know everything about. Uh, so what do you think

Vanessa Vakharia 15:53

Jo Boaler actually wrote the forward to my book. Actually, everyone should know that.

David Kochberg 15:56

Facts, facts, facts.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:57

She's the best.

David Kochberg 15:58

What do you think young Vanessa fresh out of teacher's college would think about where you have ended up in education?

Vanessa Vakharia 16:06

Wow. Well, I would say that young Vanessa who was failing math would probably be like, what the actual fuck. I mean, I always tell my students who are, who are stressed out about their futures being like, I don't know what I want to do, I'm always like, do you think when I was 16, I was like, I'm going to go into math education and talk to everyone about math trauma. Like sometimes you can't plan this stuff. I think young Vanessa would be like, yeah right, that's the weirdest thing I've ever heard. Like number one. But thinking of me in teachers college, you know, I don't know that the young Vanessa would be so surprised. I've always had a thirst for fame. You know,

David Kochberg 16:50

Okay, well, this is going to come as a shock to nobody.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:53

I've always wanted to be kind of famous, not that I am famous, but I think like being like, oh, if you were going to tell young Vanessa and teacher's college, you know what you're going to end up doing with your teaching, you're going to end up, uh, ranting on every public platform you possibly can about teaching math, she'd be like, Yeah, that checks out. Like anything for a buck.

David Kochberg 17:15

Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:15

Actually I make no money off of any of this ranting. Our podcast is not sponsored, neither is my social media content, but you know what I mean.

David Kochberg 17:22

Growth mindset.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:23

Should you delete this maybe?

David Kochberg 17:25

No, because it segues great into one of my other questions. I was going to save it till later on, but we're just going to go straight to it.

What even is an "edu celeb"?!

David Kochberg 17:32

So, there's been a lot of discussion about the perils and dangers of math education being taken over by quote unquote, edu celebs. Do you think now is the best time to be pivoting so hard into a career as an edu celeb.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:54

Oh, my God. Let me start with this. Everyone loves to hate a celebrity. Okay. Everyone loves to hate a celebrity. Here's what I've always thought about fame. The coolest part about fame is that people listen to you. I remember when I wrote my master's thesis, by the way. I pitched this to the University of British Columbia, my thing was called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math, great, I've told you that. But I say that because I was like, you know what we Need to do, we need to pay Paris Hilton to get on her platform and be like, math is cool. Because my whole thesis was about how like, math is marketed in a way that makes it impossible for like most of the population to get into it, cause it's all about like, nerdy, like anti social people doing math. Anyways, the point is, my whole pitch was a celebrity could literally, think about when Taylor Swift like speaks up about an election, like thousands of people, maybe millions vote for like,

David Kochberg 18:49

Yeah, the original influencer.

Vanessa Vakharia 18:50

The original influencers. And so, so I actually think this whole edu celeb thing is, let me think, let me, let me think about my answer here. I mean, first of all, this whole idea about education being at the risk of being taken over by edu celebs, I.

David Kochberg 19:07

Well I mostly posed the question for entertainment value.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:11

But I want to answer it because I'm because I'm sure some people think that.

David Kochberg 19:15

I mean, yeah, uh, in honesty, it is part of the discussion. It is something that we talk about it because you talk about it because there is a discussion about.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:22

I don't know how true this is. Like, it's like, Okay. What are we actually talking about? Are we talking about there, how there are, which there are in every industry, people who are like, well-known? Like, okay. There are people who well known and that makes them, I mean, the term edu celeb is so absurd to me that I can't even say it, but like it's like, so they're well-known and they have influence, I guess, because people know them and like them. And so

David Kochberg 19:47

I think what you're trying to say is with the, the old adage, "with great power comes, great responsibility".

Vanessa Vakharia 19:52

Yes! I do, I do say that.

David Kochberg 19:54

And yes, the Paris Hilton idea, the idea of, you can use your fame for the powers of good. And I think that there is a lot to be said for that.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:04

But I also think who is like, we're talking about education, like the idea of an edu celeb. It's like, we're not talking about Paris Hilton. We're talking about a person in the math education world who is very, very well-known and people look up to like, is that our definition of edu celeb?

David Kochberg 20:20

We really don't have to, things were going very smoothly. We don't have to go down too deep into this

Vanessa Vakharia 20:25

Fine. I just, I just think we all need to rethink what we're, if there are people who are like, oh my God, math education is being taken over by edu celebs, what is the actual, what what's what's beneath that sentiment. I just

David Kochberg 20:38

Well yes, as an outsider who sees it all, various trends can, can be either jumped on and then, in anything when something gets popular

Vanessa Vakharia 20:48

Yeah.

David Kochberg 20:48

There's always going to be haters.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:49

That's it.

David Kochberg 20:49

Haters are going to hate.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:51

Haters are going to

David Kochberg 20:52

But then

Vanessa Vakharia 20:52

As Taylor Swift said, haters will hate. Yeah. Period. I think that's it. I that's, that's actually what I think. So that's my closing statement is that with great power comes great responsibility, but also I really think that when anything reaches a pinnacle of becoming popular and people are jumping on the trend, the haters are going to come out and that's our society. Next.

David Kochberg 21:16

Great. Very succinct.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:18

Well, it's just, it gets me fired up.

David Kochberg 21:20

No. I know, that's why I asked.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:22

And I also, I don't want to be acting defensively and like being like, this is so ridiculous. I mean, obviously.

David Kochberg 21:28

No. I asked the question ridiculously, intentionally.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:31

Okay.

David Kochberg 21:32

Uh, okay. Let's, let's, let's keep, let's go back to the, let's keep it.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:35

It's been 25 minutes somehow.

David Kochberg 21:38

Because we're just having a conversation.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:40

Okay.

David Kochberg 21:41

So.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:42

We should do this more.

David Kochberg 21:45

Okay.

Vanessa Vakharia 21:46

Maybe we should co-host the pod

David Kochberg 21:47

Let's see how this Oh, my God. Let's see how this one goes. Uh, okay.

One of her fave eps

David Kochberg 21:53

So looking back on your storied career as a podcast host, is there any guest that stands out as the most surprising, in terms of, you went into the interview expecting one thing, or maybe not expecting anything, and then you left it and your mind was totally blown.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:13

I would have to like look through the guests. You know what I'm just going to say something. I will tell you a guest that has stuck with me and that is Bex. Honestly, she has always stuck with me and I'll tell you why. So for those of you who don't know, again, this was the early days of the podcast when I was just like trolling the internet for people who are talking shit about math. And I saw a tweet, from this girl, and it said "the best part about adulting is being able to opt out of math".

David Kochberg 22:40

Hmm.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:41

And so I commented and I was like, oh, "sounds like math trauma, you should come on my podcast." And this girl was like, what? And it ended up, I think being one of the nice, first of all, she ended up being such a lovely person. Um, she's from the UK, it was one of our first virtual interviews, because at the time we were doing them all in person, and she just came on being like, so self-assured and which makes her so amazing and just being like, seriously, like I suck at math, I've always been bad at it and I don't care. I didn't post that because I have math trauma it's cause like, for real, like I don't need to do math anymore and I was never good at it. And like, that's fine. And I kind of tried to convince her throughout the interview, I tried to pull some math therapy on her, and she, I was like, she worked in a bank, she worked in a bank. I was like, you're doing math all the time. And she was kind of like, ah, And it's so funny because six months later, I remember getting a message from her and she's like, you know, I ended up going on such a journey after our interview and having a huge talk with my mom and just realized how true it was that I've thought I was bad at math, and it kind of was impacting my self confidence, and you've really changed the way I see myself now. And I've, I've kept in touch with her to this day. It was like four years ago. And I just thought, I mean, I guess it wasn't like a shocker, but it was a really surprising turnaround. And also a surprising, like, going back to what you said about like on, maybe you said this in the other interview that people on Twitter just want to argue, you know, she had posted this thing and was just like, you know, causing shit on Twitter, kind of with it, but really at the core of it, she was just the nicest sweetest person and really open to like, self-reflecting about this. I don't know. I just, I just, I just, I loved that episode.

David Kochberg 24:19

I agree. Yeah. And she was also very funny.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:21

She was so funny. She, I, I really hope she gets, she ends up on a reality show.

David Kochberg 24:26

I do remember that one being really fascinating and that's true, that's true, that was one of the best, like you giving math therapy, or not you giving even, just talking like actual math therapy. In terms of what the podcast was envisioned for in the first place. Because I remember she was talking about how, didn't she have dyscalcula? Like she had number dyslexia

Vanessa Vakharia 24:47

That's right, that's right. And it just occurred to her!

David Kochberg 24:49

Yeah, exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia 24:50

On the podcast!

David Kochberg 24:51

So, yeah, it was,

Vanessa Vakharia 24:52

She didn't know that that was even a thing. She was like I'm always writing my letters, uh, my numbers backwards. I was like, that's dyscalcula.

David Kochberg 24:59

Oh, yeah, cause she was like, she would mix up the hours and how there's 60 minutes in an hour.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:04

With a hundred cents in a dollar. A lot of people, a lot of people that's actually very common.

David Kochberg 25:08

Yeah, it was very fascinating. I thought it was so cool, those kinds of opportunities to understand, in a lot of conversations, you're talking about learning disabilities and you're talking about accommodations and stuff like that, but that can be kind of esoteric or abstract.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:26

Yeah.

David Kochberg 25:26

And then it's all, I've thought it's been very interesting, a lot of your guests, where you can actually hear from some of them describe what actually is their experience. How does their brain actually take in or interpret or struggle with stuff that like a quote unquote normal person might not, which I know is not, that's why I quote unquoted it, I know it's not appropriate to say normal.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:49

He's using air-quotes guys.

David Kochberg 25:50

And I also said the words, quote unquote. Yeah. So this was, that's very interesting. Uh, okay. Let's move, let's move on.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:57

I'm loving this interview.

David Kochberg 25:58

I think it's going great. I think I'm doing a great job.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:01

It's been 30 minutes.

David Kochberg 26:02

30 minutes. Okay. We're going to wrap up soon.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:05

We are?

David Kochberg 26:06

You want to keep going?

Vanessa Vakharia 26:07

No, I'm just excited.

David Kochberg 26:08

I'm, I planned. I mean, I did it in the five minutes prior to the interview, but uh, okay. Let's brighten things up. Well, things have been mostly pretty bright, actually. Let's make them

What gives her hope about math ed

David Kochberg 26:19

even brighter. What gives you hope about the future of education?

Vanessa Vakharia 26:23

So nice. Not much. I'm kidding. I'm kidding. What I, honestly, I am, that was a joke. Because what gives me hope is, I'm telling you, talking, talking to the guests on this podcast, just having these conversations, um, with so many educators who are not putting it on, there are so passionate about what they're doing. It's funny because I think the rest of the world has this perception of teachers, and it is usually based, look, I run a tutoring center. I see thousands of kids every single year. I talked to hundreds of parents, and the stories are familiar, right? It's like their, their kid will have a very bad experience with a teacher and ended up coming to us for tutoring, and now we're here to heal those math wounds. And I think the perception is if you're a parent, you know, with a kid that has a bad experience with the teacher. You get the impression that, that teachers don't care, you know, and that they're not trying, and they're using the same old tech, whatever it is. Okay. And I just, I think teachers get such a bad reputation, based on these one-off experiences, right? And this is just negativity bias in the brain. We remember the negative experiences more than the good ones, because we're trying to protect ourselves. So, you know, their kid can have 10 amazing teachers, but there's one teacher that just, you know, like didn't pay attention to them or did whatever, whatever it is, I don't want to call out behavior. And then they get this impression that, oh, teachers, you know, like they're not doing any work or they're just whatever. And I think it's so easy to see that all over, you know, we saw that during COVID, just all of the hate teachers were getting, being called glorified babysitters, like just all of this stuff. And then on this side of things, I'm talking, every educator, I am talking to cares so much, they're putting in so much extra work. They're buying resources with their own money, like, they are just, they care so deeply about improving the lives of their students, like with their whole heart and soul, and it does give me so much hope. Because it's just, I mean, if you're listening to this and you're not an educator, it's like, there are so, like the majority of teachers out there truly love your children. You know, they love your children and they care for them and they want them to love themselves. That's what gives me the most hope. It's talking to all these educators and, you know, you see the math wars and all this nonsense on Twitter and all of that is just nonsense. It's not, it's not happening in the classroom. In the classroom, what's happening for the most part, are teachers just doing everything they can to improve the lives of their students.

David Kochberg 28:53

That's beautiful. I feel the same way, that listening to those conversations you're having with all these people similarly gives me hope for the future. Something that I think has come up when you talk about this idea with other guests is, is indeed what you just said, which is that even if, for the most part, like sure, there's outliers who just want to argue or just want attention or whatever, but for the most part, even if you vehemently disagree with someone else in terms of education policy, chances are both of you are coming at it because you really care about helping kids.

Vanessa Vakharia 29:32

I really believe that. Honestly. Thank you for saying that. I really believe that. I think, I think that's what we have to remember is like, you know, you. Oh, my God, you might disagree on whether it should be explicit instruction or not, the biggest debate of all time, but at the root of most of that is people who really just want to do what's best for the children and disagree about how to do it. Like again, of course there's some shit disturbers, and people who are doing it for, you know, politics or whatever, but for the most part, I really do believe that.

David Kochberg 30:00

Well that's, all right, that's great. Look at us agreeing. Uh, okay. Let us wrap up with the final two questions that I ask every guest, starting with this, my first interview. And, uh, they're not what you think they are!

Vanessa Vakharia 30:18

Okay good. Because I don't have answers to those.

Q1 (sort of)

David Kochberg 30:21

What would you say to someone who thinks that they are a math person, and wants to share their love of math with the world?

Vanessa Vakharia 30:31

I mean, that would just be music to my ears. Let me tell you. I, um, if someone said that to me, I would be pumped. And I think the key is actually is to find out, everyone has a strength in terms of sharing knowledge and a passion for something. So I'd be very invested in like this person's personality and where to help them shine. Like, are you, you don't need to be a teacher, you don't have to enter the classroom, but if you want to, we need you. Teachers are quitting at an alarming rate. Um, you know, but there are so many ways to share a love for learning, including like, honestly, you hop on social media and talk about it, start breaking some of those stereotypes, like be that person, when you go out with friends and your friends are like, I'm not a math person, that you're the person like helping them realize that they're more capable than they think. I think there are so many ways to spread that love of math. And we need all of the creative, innovative, unique approaches to changing the stereotype that, that, you know, most of us can't do math.

David Kochberg 31:31

Beautiful. Beautiful.

Q2 (sort of)

David Kochberg 31:33

And the last question that I ask every single time I interview someone, what would you change about this podcast?

Vanessa Vakharia 31:46

Um,

David Kochberg 31:46

One thing

Vanessa Vakharia 31:47

I will tell you one thing, I will tell you one thing. I would record way more episodes.

David Kochberg 31:52

Oh God. Can we go back to the first question that I asked you that we deleted, because it was actually quite a depressing answer you gave me.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:01

There you go.

David Kochberg 32:02

Well,

Vanessa Vakharia 32:03

So get to work!

David Kochberg 32:04

I guess I walked right into that one.

Buy Vanessa's book!

David Kochberg 32:06

It now comes time, for that point in every episode where the host, with grace, with con

Vanessa Vakharia 32:16

Tell them about where to buy my book first though.

David Kochberg 32:18

Vanessa's book, Vanessa.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:20

You're supposed to say is there anything

David Kochberg 32:22

Hey Vanessa, thank you, no, that's good, good point, good, this is a good learning experience, good training, thank you for the constructive feedback. Vanessa. Is there anything else you'd like to tell our guest, our audience, you're the guest, our, is there anything else you would like to tell the audience about specifically the book that you were trying to peddle right now? You want to sell, you want to move some copies, so those, those pink beacons of hope are just taking up space at some warehouse, the back of your car or something? I don't know. Yeah, where can they buy it?

Vanessa Vakharia 32:53

Um, thank you so much. I am trying to peddle my book. It is called Math Therapy, and it is jam packed with tools, strategies, templates. No, for real though, um, if you want to buy my book, uh, it is not just a collection of stories from the podcast, quite the opposite. It is literally every single step, the five steps of Math Therapy, guiding every teacher out there on how to heal math trauma in their classroom with like strategies, resources, activities, like everything. Okay, cool. That's my little promo pitch.

David Kochberg 33:21

As the host and producer, I shall be putting a link to purchase that book.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:28

Let me tell you where to get it

David Kochberg 33:28

Into the show notes.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:29

Great. You can literally, though, if it's easier for you guys, the easiest thing you can do is just go to maththerapy.com. New website, new book baby, go to maththerapy.com, you can see how to purchase the book there.

David Kochberg 33:42

Yeah, go do it. It's it's a, it's a great book.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:44

You haven't read it.

David Kochberg 33:45

Heard the stories.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:46

You've never read it.

David Kochberg 33:47

But apparently I'm in it. I think I had to sign some waiver.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:49

You did.

David Kochberg 33:50

So, uh, yeah, go, go get the book. Let me know what happens, how I was featured in there, cause I'm not reading this piece of garbage.

Vanessa Vakharia 34:00

David!

David Kochberg 34:03

Uh, is there anything else? Uh,

Vanessa Vakharia 34:05

No.

David Kochberg 34:05

No, make sure, you know, follow us on all the social things. There's the links in the show notes, the description in your podcast player or whatever, yada, yada. Let us know what you think about the podcast, you know, go on the social media, do the tweeting and the Instagram commenting and such. And, uh, and, is it now, now I can do the,

Hard to say goodbye

David Kochberg 34:27

okay. And now finally it really comes time for the host to, with great circumstance and pomp and, uh, and confidence, actually, now I'm not doing a great job at all, it's time to say goodbye. Vanessa, thank you so much for coming on my podcast. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to live out my dreams. And I am very happy to return the reins of the podcast back to you because you do a great job. It is a true honor to produce you and edit these wonderful episodes. And this has been a lot of fun. So thank you for coming on the podcast. Your own podcast.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:07

You are supposed to say bye first, everyone knows that. You're just messing with me.

David Kochberg 35:15

I've taught you nothing. No. How does a conversation usually end? Like you see a person in public you're talking to them. One of you is like, Hey, this has been so great. Great to see you. Actually, no, that doesn't happen in public, but it happens on a podcast. On a podcast. If someone's like, it's like a natural, people.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:33

We have to end this episode.

David Kochberg 35:35

You know what, no, no, I you're, don't turn around on me.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:40

David. It's been 50 minutes. We're going to cut out a lot of it though. Yeah, but there's a lot. We'll cut that whole section. Okay.

David Kochberg 35:46

Vanessa, thanks so much for coming on the pod past, pod past, the cod pat, you're right, it is hard. Huh!

Vanessa Vakharia 35:52

I'm actually just leaving. I have to go to the bathroom.

David Kochberg 35:55

Thanks. Vanessa. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Goodbye. She's, she's, now she's on the toilet.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:07

David!

Outtake: OG Q2

David Kochberg 36:14

And the final question, I will be asking you on this interview. What is one thing that you think the education system does really well?

Vanessa Vakharia 36:25

Such a, wow, wow, wow, wow.

David Kochberg 36:30

Since you're always shitting on it. Ah,