Intro

Francis Su 0:02

It's kind of like learning your musical scales, if you want to play a concerto. You don't learn music to start learning to play scales. People put the emphasis on thinking about math as learning scales, versus listening to a symphony. I just want people to experience the symphony, even if they don't end up becoming professional musicians.

Vanessa Vakharia 0:23

Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it. Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist. But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do. Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast. Okay, let me ask you guys this. What comes to mind when you hear the words mathematics for human flourishing? Like really think about it. "Mathematics for Human Flourishing". What a beautiful sentiment. And it is also the title of an incredible book by Dr. Francis Su and the reason I had to have him on the podcast. I devoured that book cover to cover and was so deeply moved by the way he views mathematics, and the awe he believes it could inspire in our students. And I just, I can't wait for you guys to hear him explain how finding the beauty and wonder in math can make it possible for all of us to truly flourish as humans. Francis,

The "mathematician" stereotype

Vanessa Vakharia 1:27

welcome to the podcast! I'm so excited to have you. There's a lot I want to talk to you about. Truthfully, I have you on the podcast as like a fan, like I read your book and I was like, I'm a huge fan. But, as I was like, Oh, I'm having him on the podcast, I should like just do a little more research, I started kind of like looking into you and, I found the reflection questions you had written for your book and that actually opened up like a whole new thing in me. And so, I actually have so many questions just about the first thing I saw on your website, which was that you call yourself a mathematical explorer.

Francis Su 2:04

Yeah. Well, I mean, I guess one of the, the ways that I think about math, I think is a very important aspect of math is the exploratory nature of math, which a lot of people don't see. And, I could call myself a mathematician, but for some people, when they hear that term, they think professional mathematician who does research, for instance, like, one set of people like college professors think mathematician is just someone who does mathematical research, but maybe other people who are familiar with what a mathematician does, who knows what they think about when they think about a mathematician? And so I prefer to use the term mathematical explorer, because I think that maybe is a little more accessible. People don't have preconceived notions about what it means to be a mathematician.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:50

Well, yeah, I would say that if you tell anyone you're a mathematician, like, no one other than a mathematician is going to think anything good.

Francis Su 2:58

Yes, yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 2:59

Like, that's not, that's not a good vibe. Also, do you know, um, Deborah Peart at all, and like the work she does around the term "mather"?

Francis Su 3:06

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:07

So it's like making me think about that.

Francis Su 3:09

Yes, yeah, I mean I appreciate all these reframings that help people get out of the usual mode when they think about a particular word.

Vanessa Vakharia 3:18

So like, why do you think that the word mathematician has such a bad reputation?

Francis Su 3:24

That's a great question. I think when people think of mathematician, they think of, a reclusive hermit who works on, you know, difficult problem for many years and avoids people. And, you know, to some extent that narrative is, is sometimes fed by media, right. Or fed by stereotypes that people have around who can be a mathematician, and uh, what they do. And of course you hear these stories about, you know, these very, very hard centuries old problems that someone's been working on, in silence until they suddenly solve it, right? Like, that's one narrative that often gets press, but it's maybe not the most common narrative or the way that we do math.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:06

Well, yeah, my whole master's thesis, it, well, it's called Imagining a World Where Paris Hilton Loves Math, and it was entirely about media representations of mathematicians, especially for women, and how it like, turns them off the subject entirely, because who would be like, ooh, you know what I want to do? I want to be a recluse and, like, never have a romantic relationship and have no friends, but, like, all do math. You know,

Francis Su 4:28

Right. That's right.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:29

But it's, it's crazy because I wrote it in 2010, and you would think so much has changed, but like still, you're hard pressed to find, a representation of a mathematician that doesn't fit into one of these tropes.

Francis Su 4:42

Yes,

Vanessa Vakharia 4:43

Like, think about the Queen's Gambit. Did you watch that?

Francis Su 4:46

Yes. I love that. I love that series.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:49

Okay, but what did you think of, what was her name? The main character?

Francis Su 4:54

I, yeah, I don't remember her name.

Vanessa Vakharia 4:55

Well, whatever, but what did you think of her?

Francis Su 4:57

Well, I mean, there are some ways in which her character broke stereotypes, right? This is maybe for the listeners. The main character is a girl who plays chess and does a lot of mathematical thinking, but she has a very difficult life and, the series tries to unpack a little bit about her journey into chess. And it's been a little while since I watched it, so maybe you should start with what you thought was recycling old tropes.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:23

I just think it's interesting. Cause when I watched it, I was like, yes, a woman who plays chess.. And then I started looking at it as like, the full picture. And I was like, but hold on a second. What did she have to do to be a great mathematical thinker? Oh, she had all of these problems. She had to do all of these drugs. They kind of made it seem like she had like severe mental health issues.

Francis Su 5:43

Yes. Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:44

Right? So I was like, wait, this is just the same trope now of being like, the only way you can be good at math is if there's something like wrong with you in every

Francis Su 5:51

Yes. No, that's very true. That's very true. Yeah, I mean that's similar to Good Will Hunting, right? Like, Good Will Hunting is, it follows that.

Vanessa Vakharia 5:59

A Beautiful Mind.

Francis Su 6:00

Yes, Beautiful Mind, um, to some extent Jeff Goldblum, uh, in, uh, uh, Jurassic Park, is this sort of crazy mathematician who is a little, you know, he's a little weird in some sense and, yeah, all these things sort of feed into that, that stereotype. But there are ways which I appreciated Queen's Gambit, they do a pretty good job of, helping people see what it means to visualize math or visualize chess, like doing chess on the ceiling. I, I love some of those scenes.

Vanessa Vakharia 6:31

I loved that. Well, and like, so I run a math tutoring center. We tutor math, and literally, I'm not kidding, after that came out, I had at least 10 female students being like, do you guys tutor chess? Like it worked in a way, right? Like it, it got women, like a ton of my teenage students, like getting into chess. So,

Human flourishing with math

Vanessa Vakharia 6:48

okay. Well, anyway, so Mathematical Explorer it is, and that's what we're using from now on because it sounds way cooler and way more fun. And I think really touches on that exploratory nature of what mathematics could be. This thing filled with like curiosity. And what you talk about is mathematics for human flourishing. That's the title of your book and that's what it's about. And I guess my first question is like, what is human flourishing to you?

Francis Su 7:15

Yeah, the way I like to think about human flourishing is it's both a state of being and doing and so the being aspect is it's beyond happiness. It's a beyond joy. In fact, you could be going through very difficult circumstances and still be flourishing in those circumstances. It's a state of living and acting in accordance with, living to your fullest potential, maybe it's one way of putting it. And acting in accordance with your values. It's a holistic state of being. I mean, one way of thinking about it is, is the way the ancient Greeks thought about human flourishing, right? It's the ultimate good in life in some sense, right? It's the highest good is one in which you are, maybe in, in modern parlance, it's, you're in a state of flow and that's the way some people in the psychology literature talk about being in flow, right? You are so, absorbed or engrossed in, in this case, it could be maybe a, solving a problem, but, generally speaking, outside the mathematical context, it's um, I, I hate to use this term "living your best life" because that also sounds like it has something to do with

Vanessa Vakharia 8:29

So YOLO.

Francis Su 8:29

circumstances.

Vanessa Vakharia 8:30

It means YOLO.

Francis Su 8:31

Yes,

Vanessa Vakharia 8:32

You could have titled your book, Mathematics for YOLO. Okay, cool.

Francis Su 8:36

But let me give you an example. I mean, like, for instance, when my, um, my mother was dying, that's, that, that's a difficult situation, right? But, you know, sometimes when you have difficult situations you're living through, you can still, you know, that, that started lots of conversations, hard conversations, good conversations, rich conversations. And somehow you're like, oh, really in the moment, you are really loving someone through a difficult time, that could also be a state of human flourishing.

Vanessa Vakharia 9:10

It's so crazy because, first of all, you said it so beautifully. And I, I feel like we're, I use different words, but to me, this sounds like you're talking about living in alignment, really, with like your values, whatever that is. And it feels really spiritual to me in the sense that it, like, has nothing to do with the material world, it's something so internal, but, so you're on a podcast called Math Therapy, and my whole, thing really is the idea that, like, yes, it's very cool to learn math and mathematical thinking and all of that, but to me, the skills students have the capacity to learn in math class are ones that I really believe can lead them to a lifetime of joy. In, I always say, helping students break myth around math ability that have been like put on them can help lead them to a place where they truly believe they're capable of anything. I can think of no greater, more noble cause than to help young people discover how to do that.

Francis Su 10:03

Yes. Right. Right. Yeah. I mean, living life is hard.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:07

It's hard.

Francis Su 10:08

It's hard, and how do we, how do we move through the world? You know, I think mathematics certainly helps people, to see the world more clearly and move through it in ways that if you don't have that experience, even having the experience of beauty in seeing mathematics, that's to our detriment, right? That's, there's something we're missing by, not experiencing some of those things.

Vanessa Vakharia 10:33

So how do you tie those ideas of human flourishing, this beautiful incredible thing that it'd be so great for every human to be able to like actualize, and doing that through mathematics? Like tie those together for me.

Francis Su 10:48

Yeah. Uh, well, I guess the way that I try to do that in the book is to connect with everybody's experience of, of having deep human desires, right? Like we all have a deep desire for community, to be in connection with other people. We all have a deep desire for meaning. nobody wants to live a life that somehow feels meaningless. So we automatically make connections, between events and people and ideas. And the same thing happens in math, right? You, you make connections between something you're just learning and something that you've seen in another context. We all have a deep desire for freedom and being able to have agency to make choices in what we do. Um, we all have a, a deep desire for beauty to experience, that feeling of transcendence, which people experience in other contexts, but only people who do math professionally begin to see the sort of transcendent side of like, oh, whoa, you know, this idea is connected to this one and it's so beautiful. Right? And, you know, this is part of why, you know, you see, in a beautiful mind, you've got this like, um, characters who experienced that beauty. And then, of course, everyone looks at that and says, oh, they're crazy, you know, rather than, oh, I want some of that, right? I want to be able to see the connectedness of ideas and feel like I have a window into something that I otherwise wouldn't see.

Vanessa Vakharia 12:15

Yeah, I think part of that reason is because that character never is able to like get a girlfriend. You know, like, so you're like, yeah, I'd like to feel like that, but not at the expense of like my social life. But that being said,

Hear the symphony before the scales

Vanessa Vakharia 12:28

but, but what's so interesting about what you said is you're talking about math in this incredibly like liberating way, but how is it that you are talking about it this way yet, I would say that most people I know would think of math as like one of the most restrictive things. One of the things that would absolutely not lead to freedom.

Francis Su 12:48

Yes. Yes. and that's, that's because math has this other side, right? The side of, um,

Vanessa Vakharia 12:54

The dark side.

Francis Su 12:56

Ha, well it doesn't have to be dark, but it's often taught that way. Like, you know, some of these, basic understandings, that you need in order to experience some of that beauty and joy, is some basic, you know, basic number facts, right? And, you know, I think those things are, are important, but it's sometimes often taught like, Hey, just try to be a better human calculator. And, you know, what I like to say is the world doesn't need better human calculators. Yes. It's important that we know our basic facts and that having a fluency, there's that technical side, but people often confuse that, fluency with. the deeper joy or the deeper possibilities inherent in learning math. And you know, there, there are ways in which that's, you know, that, that takes practice and it's, it's kind of like learning your musical scales, right? If you want to play a concerto, right? But, you don't learn music to start learning to play scales. Right? Like people put the, you know, maybe switch the emphasis on thinking about math as learning scales, versus listening to a symphony. And I just want people to experience the symphony, even if they don't end up becoming professional musicians,

Vanessa Vakharia 14:08

And even if they can't like write the symphony themselves, like they can still listen to it.

Francis Su 14:13

Yes, and enjoy, experience that. If you think about what we do in math, often we teach people to learn scales before they actually experience the symphony. And some people think, well, gosh, you know, kids can't experience a symphony until they learn the scales. And I'm like, no, no, you can give them glimpses of what's possible.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:32

But they've heard music. That's the other, Okay. But now I'm obsessed with this idea because I'm like, okay, hold on. So I'm like, well, of course, again, I'm in a band. So like tons of people go to concerts and they're not I can't get into this because I don't know how to play the guitar.

Francis Su 14:47

Right.

Vanessa Vakharia 14:48

But why is it different for math? is it because there's so much guilt and shame around not being able to like understand every bit of it? Whereas like, there's no guilt and shame around not being able to perform an instrument.

Francis Su 15:00

Yeah, I think that there, there's some aspect of that, right? Like there's this idea that, Oh, I can't teach kids, I can't show kids the beautiful side of math, until they learn their times tables.

Vanessa Vakharia 15:12

Hmm. Mm

Francis Su 15:13

And so, of course, part of that, the thing that I say is that that's the exploratory side that the playful side of mathematics is often what gets people interested and helps them see that, oh, actually, math is actually fun. Right? And they begin to enjoy those aspects of mathematical thinking. You

Skills vs. Virtues

Francis Su 15:31

know, think about what's going on in the world today, right? Like where we have calculators, computers that can do a lot of the routine stuff for us, right? It's valuable, it's important for kids to know how to multiply 7 times 5 quickly, so you're not always reaching for a calculator. Yes. But, as an example, do we really need to teach long division? You know, there's, there's a little bit of a debate, right? Like, what would I like kids to learn, that I think is way more valuable, is having a certain number sense, right? Being able to say that, oh, if I multiply, 39 times 4, I should get something that's about 160. Because that's almost 40 times 4, right? That, that's a skill that's useful in today's modern world. We can let calculators and computers and AI do the, the routine stuff, but what we need are people with virtues who are able to say, ah, I think something went wrong with that computer, right? Like I think the answer, or maybe somebody entered the numbers wrong, but I know that, you know, 39 times 4 isn't gonna give me 2000, right? Like so

Vanessa Vakharia 16:38

Right.

Francis Su 16:39

That, that's what we need. We need people who are able to do the checks and say ah something went wrong somewhere.

Vanessa Vakharia 16:44

But I love that you just said people with virtues. What a way to put it.

Francis Su 16:49

Yeah. And of course, that's the argument. the big argument I'm making in the book is that math is more than just a bunch of skills like learning how to multiply numbers and factor a quadratic. Like skills are things that calculators and computers can do because they can be automated, but virtues are always going to be in demand, right? If you have a job that depends on having skills, that job's in jeopardy, right?

Vanessa Vakharia 17:12

Right. Right. Yeah.

Francis Su 17:15

But if you have people who actually have the capacity to think, to reason, to visualize, to abstract, to define, to quantify, those, virtues are always going to be in demand. Those are the things that a great math education builds, and unfortunately, people don't get that impression when they leave a math class Maybe we don't do a good enough sales job as teachers.

Vanessa Vakharia 17:38

We do not. No, I've never, no.

Francis Su 17:43

Yeah, and when people say, well, why do I need to know this stuff? The reason is often because they think math is just skills, like, why do I need to know how to factor a quadratic? Well, people who go off in STEM and subjects, um, but most people never need to factor a quadratic in their daily lives. But will they actually need to be able to think, and to reason,

Vanessa Vakharia 18:04

Yes.

Francis Su 18:05

and to understand? Yes!

Vanessa Vakharia 18:07

And that's what I always say too. I'm like, it's like the math adjacent skills you're building. Obviously we would love to go in and change the curriculum and the content and all, but like the only thing I think you could do to convince a, like a child or a teenager or whatever that it was important is to be like, you're going to be building skills that will be important in the areas of your life that matter. Like, you know what I mean? Like factoring a quadratic. Okay. First of all, I actually love factoring quadratics. Regardless of whether it's useful. Okay. That's one of my favorite things, but I'm always like, no, it's like the thinking, it's the like ability to like problem solve and to work through it. Like all of that stuff. But like, okay, but

What's different about math?

Vanessa Vakharia 18:40

hold on, we have to back up. Cause you said something that I'm like, still like shell shocked over. kind of. I'm still thinking about the music thing, Think about it from the students. Okay, let's not even use the word student. Think about it from the learner's perspective, okay? I'm a learner of life. I'm just a person. I go to a rock concert. I listen to a band. I love the band, I leave. In no way am I like walking into the concert being like fuck like I might not understand this and like I don't know how to do it, and like I'm, right? And then so like same person, I walk into a math class and my teacher shows me this like really cool math thing, like I don't know whatever it is cool, it's like cool stuff, it's not like, but I'm like, I would feel like I, I'd be so blocked. By a previous math trauma or like by whatever, I don't know that I'd be able to do what you're wanting, I don't think we can just show kids cool stuff without doing all this like prep work emotionally. Well, what do you think though? Do you think I'm like, no, maybe I'm wrong.

Francis Su 19:39

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia 19:41

People don't have like, music trauma.

Francis Su 19:44

Yeah. Why, and why is that?

Vanessa Vakharia 19:47

Tell me you're the guest. You're

Francis Su 19:49

Yes. Yes. Well, I mean, I'm just thinking out loud here, which is what I think math helps us to do often. But, you know, if I think about music, people have early introduction to music, so it's not unfamiliar.

Vanessa Vakharia 20:04

Lullabies, even.

Francis Su 20:05

Lullabies. People sing. you know, I have a three year old and I. I'm basically, doing little mathematical things just to get him ready, right? Like, back when we were, I was changing his diaper, I would say what's one plus one. And he'd say two. And that's, of course, that's all memory, right? He's not doing any understanding. But I have to say, so now he's three, three and a half. just the other day, for the first time I saw him thinking about this, right? So we do, you know, one plus one is two, two plus two is four. And he knows these things by heart now, but then I, you know, recently I started doing this, one plus one is, Oh, count them two, right? And so, this was maybe a month ago or so he, I said, what's one plus one. And he did this. And he thought of,

Vanessa Vakharia 20:54

Okay, wait. Everyone needs to know what you're doing. This is a podcast.

Francis Su 20:57

yes, oh I'm sorry, yes, yes. I'm holding up fingers, and then putting them together, right? So two plus two, I'd hold up two on one hand, two on the other hand, and then I put them together, and then we, you know, then we start counting them, right? And so the funny thing is he's very good at just reciting, but the other day he actually paused and that's how I knew he was thinking. And I saw his eyes move and think, right. And so I put up, you know, one plus one and he's like looking and then thinking, and then he says two. And I say, two plus two. And then he pauses in a way he never did that before and then he goes four and then just to test him I mean, we don't recite this one. I said what's one plus two?

Vanessa Vakharia 21:39

Oh my god.

Francis Su 21:41

We've never practiced that one before and I could see the gears turning and he said three!

Vanessa Vakharia 21:46

No, he didn't! Mazel. Oh my god. That's incredible.

Francis Su 21:51

But see that, he's not afraid to engage that way because we did all this prep work, but it wasn't like, he would get the answer wrong lots, like, sometimes he wouldn't remember 2 plus 2 is 4. He'd say 5 or whatever, and I don't shame him, right? I don't say, you're wrong, it's 4, and now you don't get your supper. You know, like, um, it's so funny how kids learn through revision and I don't make them feel bad that they don't get it the first time. But then of course when he begins to see it, has a insight, I'm like, whoa, that's cool. That's great So so maybe I mean that like with music is like that, too. People have an introduction in music and I guess maybe they don't necessarily learn how to play music until much later

Vanessa Vakharia 22:39

Or ever though. Like they could never learn it and they wouldn't learn, they wouldn't feel dumb about being like, oh man, I can't play what the band is playing, like,

Francis Su 22:49

Yes.

Vanessa Vakharia 22:50

Because I'm also thinking, like, I literally just thought of this question now with you. So, speaking of learning through revision, like, that's literally what we're doing. And we're not like, no, like, take back your previous answer. So, first of all, that's a direct application of what you're talking about in terms of, like, translatable mathematical skill. But I'm also thinking out loud, is it because there are no stakes attached to music the way they are with math?

Francis Su 23:11

Yeah, or less. Less so.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:13

No one's going to call you dumb if you don't know how to play music.

Francis Su 23:16

That's right. And, one could argue, I'm not sure I'm gonna stand by this, but I'll just say it. Like, one could argue that math is such a necessary skill to have in a way that music isn't, but you know, the thing is, like, I, that's, that's part of the whole flourishing aspect. Like, I would say, if you lived a life where you never experienced music, that would be a real shame, right? That like maybe, you know, something like music is, you don't need that to live, but music is part of what makes life worth living, right? Like it's part of why you live.

Vanessa Vakharia 23:55

That's, whoa. That's fucking deep and I know, I see what you're saying of being like, I don't know if I'm gonna say, like I know what you're saying. I'm like, I don't know but then I'm kind of like well, hold on, what does it mean to even need something to live?

Francis Su 24:07

Yeah. I mean, you could go through your whole life and not listen to much music and, but I would say that there's, you've lost something if you haven't actually, haven't actually experienced music. You know, right. And the other thing, of course, is that there's lots of different ways to experience music, lots of different kinds of music. And to get to your point, we're very limited in what we think of as math. We think of math is just those calculator skills. And it's actually much larger, like math includes, of course, I like to call them virtues, being able to visualize, right? Being able to define, to quantify, to abstract, like these are all different ways of being mathematical and we don't often talk about that or discuss that or assess that. But that's why I love the Queen's Gambit, right? Like you, you saw this girl practicing her chess skills by visualization and, you know, laying awake at night and looking up at the ceiling, right? I can't tell you the number of times that I, I do that as a mathematician thinking about a hard problem. I try to visualize it in some way that's completely different than the way I was thinking about it before.

Vanessa Vakharia 25:20

Oh, and I love, and also doesn't that speak to the way we would love people to think about ideas that they're so polarized against? Looking at it, reframing it in a different way from a different perspective and a different context.

Francis Su 25:33

Yes, that's how you have empathy for other people, even if you don't agree with them, like, it would be great if every person could argue to give the best argument for why their ideological opponent has a particular point of view, right? Like,

Vanessa Vakharia 25:51

Wait, I love that. Like, you have to find one thing in the other person's argument that, like, speaks to you in some way that's, like meaningful.

Francis Su 26:00

Yeah, yeah. I mean

Vanessa Vakharia 26:01

You should tell this to Chris. This is great for his debate stuff.

Francis Su 26:06

uh, yeah, yeah. Sorry. Who? Chris? Chris who?

Vanessa Vakharia 26:09

Chris Luzniak, who thinks you're very nice, who I just interviewed.

Francis Su 26:12

Oh, I see. Yes, and of course that's what I like about Chris Luzniak's work is, which, uh, for the listener who doesn't know is, um, he frames math around thinking about debates. And how engaging it is to have debates. So you're not, debating whether two plus two equals four, but you're debating what's the best strategy to get to this or that answer. And that, that is really more about what math is about. So he's actually like, getting at an aspect of math that, hits at the community aspect, right? Being able to have interesting conversations about how you might try to solve a problem.

Vanessa Vakharia 26:47

Hmm. Mm hmm.

Francis Su 26:48

That's really more about, as a professional mathematician, that's more like what my life is like is I have I'm having debates, little mini, discussions with my collaborators and how we're going to approach this or that problem. That's way more interesting and engaging than. having debates over facts, which I hope we don't have debates over.

Vanessa Vakharia 27:09

Well, yeah, exactly. And also it's like that, but I think that's what people think. They think that's the only way to talk about math. Okay. I'm, I'm actually looking at my, list of questions and I haven't asked you one thing I wanted to ask. And I kind of love that because this is the best, but I do, there's one thing, I mean, there's one final question I'm going to ask you. Um. But also how funny is that? I was like, Oh, I didn't ask actually one of these questions, but this has been the best convo anyhow. Here's my question. Do

Trauma as a wound

Vanessa Vakharia 27:35

you know Gabor Mate? I'm listening to his book on Audible. It's just about, it's about trauma, and I'm writing a book on math trauma and math therapy, and the way he frames it made me want to ask you about it. He talks about trauma as a wound. He's like, you know, when we talk about trauma, we make it this whole big thing, but it's not like trauma is basically like any wound you have, an internal wound. And with a wound, it either scars over, so it becomes rigid and immovable and you can't grow over it, or it doesn't scar over, so anytime anyone touches that wound, it hurts again. So like, I think about math trauma that way. You know, you have an experience with math that it just leaves a little bit of a wound. Either you, you can't, uh, do what we were saying, you can't go to a math rock concert and take in the math because you just don't feel like you can grow, or it hurts and you feel, you know, whatever. So, do you feel the way that we are currently teaching math, which I would say is obviously not in any way towards the end goal of human flourishing in most classrooms, do you think there's something about teaching math in the way we are that leads to that wound or leads to that wound being re touched or re triggered?

Francis Su 28:46

Mm Yeah, I mean, I, I do. I think that there's a huge emphasis. And again, I understand why, where it comes from, but there's a huge emphasis in the early grades on speed as a measure of ability. When, you know, if you even look at in college or advanced levels, speed isn't even a thing, right? But I understand, I understand why we do it. It's because we want kids to be fluent in their math facts. And that's, that's valuable. But maybe we should rethink, just to start in one place, maybe we should rethink how we use speed and why we, can we design activities, strategies for getting kids to learn their math facts without shame and without speed being a factor. If you just do that, and I think there are many ways that you could do that, I think that would go a long way to, helping kids not experience that wound. That's not the only thing, there's lots of different ways that we could change. I think we've got to change a lot of how we assess math, right? We got to give students experiences where they reflect on some of the joyful aspects of math, right? Actually, I, what I like to do in my class is actually have students write and do reflections. So, part of, part of that is, is trying to heal some math trauma, and, um, part of that is just getting them to realize that, that I think, as a teacher, that there are these other things that are equally important, right? I do want my students to, to learn the skills that they're supposed to learn in this or that class, but I want them to also have, times when they, they actually reflect. You know, like, what's, what's the most beautiful idea that you've seen so far in this class? And why is it beautiful to you? These kinds of things should be part of our assessments.

Why change is so hard

Vanessa Vakharia 30:32

Okay, We're on to the final questions. But okay, I'm asking one more and then we're honestly final questions, which are like, bang, bang, like quick. But like, here's the thing.

Francis Su 30:40

Speed, oh no,

Vanessa Vakharia 30:41

No, I, speed, speed. You're being tested. The rubric is only speed. No, if we're all, kind of like, math needs to change. Math needs to change. Why isn't it?

Francis Su 30:50

Yes, um, it's complicated. It's complicated.

Vanessa Vakharia 30:55

Okay. Okay.

Francis Su 30:56

I don't know. I don't know if there's any easy answers that question. Part of it is we teach what we know and how It's easier to be in our comfort zone than to not be in our comfort zone. Part of it is that we need structures around us as teachers that encourage us to be experimental and, uh, and don't discourage us, right? Like all of us want to, there's no teacher who doesn't want to improve their craft, but I know if I have limited time and I don't get rewarded for trying things that are risky, that I'm just going to default to what I've done before.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:31

Yeah.

Francis Su 31:32

And, that's not, the fault of the teacher if you don't have people around you and structures around you that encourage you to try something different.

Vanessa Vakharia 31:41

Beautifully put. Clapping at that one. David probably hates this in the mic. Final

Q1

Vanessa Vakharia 31:46

two questions. Number one. What is the one thing you'd like to see change about the way math is taught in schools? One thing.

Francis Su 31:53

Uh, assessments. Let's change what we value and help students see that too. Because students only see what they're tested on.

Vanessa Vakharia 32:02

A million percent, yes, we are so aligned right now, an hour in and we are on the same page.

Q2

Vanessa Vakharia 32:08

Finally, second question, what would you say to someone who is like, very cool that you said all this, Francis, but like, I'm just not a math person.

Francis Su 32:17

Oh, um, again, that's complicated. But I usually start with their experiences and help them see what they're already doing is mathematical, right? Um, people think of math as like, okay, can you compute this or that? Right? But, you know, if an artist is very visual, then I'd say, hey, help them see that visualization is a huge part of what it means to do math as well. And, they've honed this through years of experience doing visualization, that they're actually doing something mathematical.

Finding beauty in math & in life

Vanessa Vakharia 32:52

Just beautiful. Is there anything I haven't asked you that you feel you'd like to say to our listeners?

Francis Su 32:59

Um, I, I hope that every person is able to see that math can be a part of their lives in a rich and fruitful way, even if it's not something they regularly do or regularly enjoy.

Vanessa Vakharia 33:13

That's very lovely. And I think you have to read Francis's book, even if you like, hate math. No, seriously, like, even if you hate math, I would just read it. Because it's like, I, I was reading, like, I failed grade 11 math twice. Like I, I've gone from one side to the other and I was reading it, jaw agaping, like, Oh my God, exactly. Like, so like, even if you're listening to this and you're like, ugh, I feel your book is math therapy. So I would read your book, Mathematics for Human Flourishing. Anything else you want to plug here? Are you on TikTok or what?

Francis Su 33:44

Ha ha ha. Um, anything else I want to plug? No, I mean, I think that like that book is, as you notice, I put a lot of heart into it. You know, there's lots of personal stories and that's, part of the way in, I think, to, for people to begin to see themselves in mathematics is to see themselves as part of the story. And, um, you read some of my own journey of discouragement, but also, why I think math should be rich, should be part of everybody's experience, right? Like, if you think about what's going on in AI these days, people think of computation AI is, okay, we can just leave all the math to, to the robots, right? And I would say, yes, there's a lot of routine stuff that should be left to robots. But, we're missing out if you let robots do all the math,

Vanessa Vakharia 34:33

Okay. Like, should this episode be called "Is mathematical virtue the antidote to AI?"

Francis Su 34:40

Yes, that's how you're going to get more people to, to engage with it is like, this has implications for what we're, what, the way we're thinking about technology, right? Like, is technology

Vanessa Vakharia 34:51

Totally!

Francis Su 34:51

And part of the wisdom I think we, we need to have around technology is being able to say what's, routine that I can actually,

Vanessa Vakharia 35:00

Mm hmm.

Francis Su 35:01

That I can automate and what's actually important to focus on. Isn't that also what life is about? Like, what should I be spending my time and energy thinking about? And I would say if you're not spending part of your time enjoying some of the mathematical patterns around you, whether you think of them as mathematical or not, then that's a life that's maybe not as rich as one in which you do see some of the patterns around you.

Vanessa Vakharia 35:29

This is such an incredible conversation because also I find that it's really hard, I know we're not talking about spirituality, but it's hard to talk about things in a spiritual way, because I feel that when I do, I got a lot of flack from like math people, you know, not wanting the two to meet.

Francis Su 35:45

Yes, yes. And I and I I think that's a mistake like I think that like people would be much more open to math if they could see how it connects to their spiritual natures. I mean, you see some of that thread running through the book, but all these human desires are actually spiritual desires. Like we, we have a spiritual connection to beauty. We have a spiritual connection to, to seeking truth, right? To, to seeking meaning, right? These are all spiritual desires as well.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:16

Okay, this has been amazing, beyond, so exciting.

Francis Su 36:20

It's been fun for me too.

Vanessa Vakharia 36:22

Great, well thanks for making it happen and uh, bye.

Francis Su 36:26

Bye bye.

Outro

Vanessa Vakharia 36:29

I love him. Can I say that? I just love the guy. I just left this interview with such a concrete outlook on how math trauma can affect our students far beyond their performance in our classrooms and I appreciate so much Dr. Su's ability to take what often seems vague and unapproachable and turn it into something we can all access and action in our very own classrooms. And come on, how cute was that part about teaching his son how to count with his fingers? I mean, stop. Go get his book, The Mathematics of Human Flourishing. Seriously, you will not regret it. If something in this episode inspired you, please tweet us @maththerapy and you can also follow me personally @themathguru on Instagram, Twitter, and TikTok. Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, it was created by me and Sabina Wex, and it's produced and edited by David Kochberg. Our theme music is by Goodnight Sunrise. And guys, if you know someone who needs math therapy or just needs to hear someone else getting math therapy, please, please, please share this podcast, and rate or review it on whatever podcast app you use. Those things actually make such a big difference for us. I'm determined to change the culture surrounding math and I need your help, so spread the word. Until next time, peace, love, and pi.