Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 0:03

well you passed. Like that was what it is. It was always like, well, you passed, you passed, you don't have to retake it, you didn't fail. And I was like, that's really like the level that we're on. Like I wish you would expect more from me. When someone says like, you can't do that. I'm just like, watch me. I don't need you to tell me I can do it anymore. Even though it would've been helpful when I was growing up to have somebody be like, no, you can. But it's like now, like I've kind of built it myself wanna do it just because you told me I can't do it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 0:30

Hey guys, it's Vanessa here, and welcome back to another episode of Math Therapy. Today's episode is actually a follow up to last week's conversation, which to be perfectly honest, I'm shocked that I've not been canceled for like, I'm actually low key serious. If you haven't heard it yet, it was completely unhinged and although I was scared to publish it, I'm so glad that I did. It was actually a conversation with Cat and Nat, two mom influencers who have extremely strong opinions about math education and are not afraid to share them. Since the episode came out, the response has been fascinating. I could see how much their stresses resonated with so many of you, which I actually didn't expect. And if any of you made it to the end of that rollercoaster, you already know that this week we're bringing you an interview with Nats daughter Taylor, who's currently in grade 11 and has had her own rocky relationship with math. I actually had the privilege of tutoring her, so I'm so excited to have her on the pod. This is a really special pair of episodes for me because on this podcast I'm usually chatting with math educators and experts about how we can help students and families. But in these two conversations, I got to actually hear the unfiltered realities of what they're going through, not just with math class, but their entire lives. Taylor is such an inspiration for all of us today. She tells us exactly how she took matters into her own hands and turned around her relationship with math. We discussed the little things that teachers can do to inspire massive confidence shifts in their students, like literally getting down to their level instead of standing over them in class, or dropping all the jargon and talking to kids like their real people. Most of all, Taylor describes the most important thing an adult can do to support a student's learning: tell them they believe in them. I know this conversation will resonate with so many of you, teachers, parents, and students. So please share this episode with someone you think needs to hear it. Maybe it's your own kid, your friend, your parent, or maybe your entire classroom. Okay, Here's my conversation with the one and only Taylor Telfer Thompson. you're the first student we've ever had on the podcast.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 2:35

I am so

Vanessa Vakharia: 2:35

I'm so excited too. I feel like your story of like perseverance and like struggle is so inspiring because I know that math is something you've always historically struggled with and you've have this very interesting approach where you've like really had this determination to not just like, throw it to the curb. Most of my listeners actually are teachers and I'm, I feel like we all wanna know like, how, why, like what's, what's your story? Like, how do we help students who are struggling? So that's like a bunch of stuff I wanna talk to you about. And I think the first thing I wanna ask is just like, what's your story? Like, what has math felt like for you growing up and like up till now?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 3:15

Math has just been like one of those subjects where it's like everyone dreads going to math class. It's like, oh, like we're going to math now. And like nobody wants to go and nobody, it's just like, it seems like we all can, like we all are confused at some point. No one's just like, I get it. And over the years it was always like, I was never great at math, and my teachers kind of just were like accepted it and they were like, okay. like, she's not gonna be great at math. that's fine. We're just gonna like, accept that and we're just gonna like pass it. Like just get through it. It was never like try to be really good at it. It was just like, get a 50, and try and just move past, like you don't have to think too much about it, just bare minimum with it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 3:58

And was it always like that? From as long as you can remember, really?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 4:02

There was never a teacher that was like, no, like you actually, you can do it. Was always just like, no.

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:07

it was just like, no. And so what, how did that make you feel? Like, was there ever ever a time where you were like, okay, I guess, like, fuck it then, or like, what happened for you?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 4:15

Up until like grade 11, so all the way until grade 10, it was just like, I was just like, yeah, like it's fine. I'm just never going to be good at math. Like that's just, I was like, yeah, I'm just not good at math. I was like, uh, whatever. Like I'm good at other things, but I guess math was just like, not my thing. I don't need to do that good in it. Like I never wanted to do anything with it, but I had to take it. But then up until grade 11, it's almost like I matured and I kind of just like, I moved schools. I was caring less about what my teachers had to say and it was more like, I don't know, like I don't really just wanna pass it, may as well see, if like everyone else can, other people can do it. Why can't I like it was that, it was like, if they can do it, why can't I do it?

Vanessa Vakharia: 4:54

Oh my. Okay. But I feel like you've hit on something like so deep. Cause I remember, I distinctly remember it was the first time I met you and it was for your exam. And you came in and you had like all your notes, all your things. You weren't a student who like didn't try. It wasn't giving like, oh, I'm just trying to pass. Like, you were not giving that energy to me. You, you were like, or, or were you, was I, were you like, yeah, I'm trying this hard'cause I need to pass.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 5:17

I think it was like right before exams or like right before tests. Like day before I was like, I'm gonna do it, like now. It's gonna be my time. I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do it now. And I was like, uh, and my mom's like, well, you're not like studying like you, you're not, you're not like trying hard enough. It was like in my head I thought I was trying, but I wasn't actually putting anything down. it was like a battle in my head. It's like, you can't do it. You can't do it. Try the day before, and then I would get the result and it wouldn't be good, and I'd be like, well, I tried.

Vanessa Vakharia: 5:45

Totally. You know what, and I think this happens to so many people because like even into way into adulthood, like leave math class out. Like what does it mean to actually try? Right? Like what does that even mean? And I actually think we do students a disservice'cause we don't actually show them what trying means. We're just kind of like, try harder and then like it's kind of up to you to interpret what that means. Then all of a sudden you try, so you start, you know, you try before the exam and you're studying hard and you don't get the result you want. And then you're like, well, I tried and it still isn't working, therefore I can't do it. Is that what was happening?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 6:16

Yeah, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:17

Okay. So when we met, we, and I just like loved you right away because again, I, you really didn't have the vibe of like, ugh. You were like, yep, I'm determined. I'm here, like I wanna do it. From that moment, you know, we only had one session together, but I just feel like we shared a really magical moment.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 6:35

Me too. Me too.

Vanessa Vakharia: 6:38

I wanna know what happened moving on. Because then in for everyone to know who's listening in Ontario, you have to take grade 10 math, so fine. But then grade 11, you're allowed to pick from a range of maths, right? And you actually chose to pick the middle level of math. I wanna know about that moment? Like, what shifted for you when you, like, what made you go, well, if everyone else can do it, why can't I, like, did something happen? What was it?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 7:08

I remember when we got our math exam mark's back from like the previous year. And I saw that like everyone was like complaining about their eighties and I like had just gotten to 55 and I was like, I'm so annoyed with this. I think it was like just like, I'm so mad. And it just like turned into like anger and I was like, no, like I wanna just like. Tell my teachers and all like these people that are saying like, no, like, oh, well you passed, like that was what it is. It was always like, well, you passed, you passed, you don't have to retake it, you didn't fail. And I was like, that's really like the level that we're on. Like I wish you would expect more from me. Like, I want you to expect more from me. It was like there was like babying me.

Vanessa Vakharia: 7:44

You've just hit on such, like Taylor, my God, I know you wanna go into psychology, but imagine you end up becoming a teacher. Because I have to say, you just hit on one of the biggest things we're all talking about in math education. Okay. So research has shown that when you expect more from students, they actually, often reach that level. Like we think we're doing students a favor by being like, don't worry, like just pass, like make it. But it actually does, you're kind of like personifying this by being like, that actually wasn't helpful.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 8:14

No, it was not at

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:15

It wasn't at all.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 8:16

No.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:18

I want everyone to hear this. It was not helpful for

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 8:20

Not helpful. It was, it was, it was like nice, they didn't yell at me or anything, but I was like, you're telling these people, like I'm watching you at the desk with them, telling them that like they could have done better. It's like with me, you're just saying like, Taylor, that's really like, no, it's not actually that great. Like if I know I could have done better, like I know and you didn't push me, like I want you to push me and say like, no, like sit here until you like, we'll sit together and we'll do it. And not just like, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:48

actually,

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 8:50

Aw.

Vanessa Vakharia: 8:50

I am, because it's so important for us to all hear this. And again, teachers are well-meaning like we're trying to be helpful, but to actually hear from a student like that isn't helpful. And that for a long time made me feel like I wasn't capable and there was nothing I could do.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 9:04

Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:05

Once you made that decision, what changed? Like is that when you changed schools?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 9:10

I changed schools when I realized, I was like, this isn't really. I feel like I was just the same. nothing was changing. Like my study habits, the way I would walk into class, just get it done, just get it done, not interested, just get it over with, just figure it out like baseline. And then when I changed schools, I guess it was like that period of time, I also just like matured. And then when I went to a school where it was more independent, like I didn't have eight kids in my class, I was like, the teacher doesn't really. Care if you pass or you fail. But they'll focus on the kids who really care. And so I wanted to be one that like they really cared about, so I would like go in and ask questions and stuff. And that really made me realize like, okay, like they'll help me if I like help myself.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:57

Huh.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 9:58

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 9:59

want everyone to know, by the way, Taylor went to the same school. That I failed grade 11 at. Which is

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 10:07

Yes. That one.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:08

is so funny because this is, you just finished grade 11 and this is the year that was like so great for you. But she's right. By

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 10:15

We're

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:16

We're all different. In that school, that is the vibe at that school. It's like they, if you like, they're not, it's a, you know, class sizes are big. I consider them, they think of themselves as like a very academic school, and they're like, if you're not serious about academics, like we don't have time for you. So interesting that as a student you were like savvy to that and you were like, okay, so I need to play the game a bit and ask

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 10:37

this how it is. This is how it let's, yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 10:40

what happened? So you're asking questions, did you, like, did all you start understanding stuff more like what occurred?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 10:47

I just like tried to like flip my narrative is like, just get it done. And I tried to be like actually interested in what they were saying and I almost convinced myself, like, one of my teachers is a mom, and I was like, she's just a mom. Like, she's like normal. Like she's just talking to me like I, or like she's just gonna go home and make dinner. I was like, you. I just have to like realize like you're, you're not just doing this like to hate us. Like you really want us to understand and like, I wanna be interested in what you have to say. And she, when she saw I was interested, she would come up to me and she'd be like, checking in on me and stuff. And I was like, that feels good. Knowing I was like engaged with her. She would come and help me, but not the kids in the back who were on their phones.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:26

Right. Okay. this is wild. This is actually like, so fascinating. You're kind of like teachers, they're just like us, like celebs, you know, they're,

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 11:34

They're, yeah, they're like

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:35

but what you're kind of actually talking about is like humanizing education, right? Like being, this is a human being.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 11:42

yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:42

Really teaching, if what we're hoping for the most is that it would be a connection between two You're connecting, you're communicating. And this kind of leads me to, because during this time you were doing tutoring with one of our tutors, right. And you found someone, who was it?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 11:57

Alex,

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:58

Okay. That's what I thought.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 11:58

she's great.

Vanessa Vakharia: 11:59

Did that help shift what was going on for you mathematically?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 12:03

Yes. It was like I'd leave the class and I had like my, it was not a great setting, like the, the class like got to a point where like, she wouldn't even say hi to us in the room. It was like she give us a paper and she's like, try it, and then we take it up. It was no relationship at all. It was just like two people. And when I would go to my tutor, she'd just make it seem like she was just like a normal girl. She'd make it seem like it was just like. So much more simple than it had to be. She explained it in like normal words and I like was like, oh, like I stopped staring at math, like it was so hard. And I was like, I have someone here that's just like really good at math, but she's explaining it to me in a way that's interesting and it started to make me not as scared of math anymore. And I was like, I just have to like approach it differently. And it took time. But like she might, having someone. I said to her at the beginning, my first thing I said was like, I'm just trying to like, um, really just like get interested in this because I was so into like English and all that stuff and I was like, there has to be a way to be interested in this. And she like gave me that reason.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:07

You know what's so funny is like we're, I don't think I've ever realized. This is really making me reflect on my own journey and what the way you're talking, I'm like, it's like we shared a brain many, many decades apart because I remember when I, the same thing happened to me when I went to my new school, so I actually left the school you're at now and I went to my new school. We had like opposite, like switcheroo. I remember too being like, you know what Vanessa, like what if you just sat and like, listened to what the teacher was saying like make it a whole thing? Like, I remember giving myself that talk and being like, okay, so like she's just gonna say some words and like, just like everyone else, I can sit and listen and like, you know, and that mindset piece really shifted things. But I do think it's really rare not to be like, oh my God, we're both so special. But i, I do think it's kind of like a really hard thing to come to as like, how old are you? 17.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 13:58

16.

Vanessa Vakharia: 13:59

16. Okay. Like to be like, I'm gonna like take this on this thing. I've been told my whole life, I'm gonna try and break that. Like that's like a huge deal.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 14:08

Mm-hmm.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:09

So like congratulate, like that's just, I just, yeah. I don't even know, like I really think that's a big deal. I'm also like, you know, as teachers we're always like, how do you know? We know that students think math is fucking boring because a lot of it is, and a lot of it is like, why am I even learning this? When you said to Alex, I'm really trying to get interested in this, and she was like, okay, and you're saying she made math interesting. What did she do to make math interesting? Like is there anything you can think of?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 14:33

She, it was like little things that you wouldn't even think, but like, they were consistent. Like, um, if I came with seven pages of notes, she would be like, okay, just like, take one. And then we'd just like highlight it and she'd like, read, I'd like watch her read it. And she's like not being like, she's like, oh no, yeah, yeah,

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:50

By the way, Taylor just paused and scratched her head as that's what, apparently she's not being like head scratch.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 14:56

to not being like this.

Vanessa Vakharia: 14:58

Okay.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 14:59

Really descriptive. just like looked at it and I just like watched her because I'm used to looking at teachers just like when they look at it and they're like. But she just like looked at it. She was like, oh. She's like, no, like it's, it's all good. Like, no worries. It's very easy. And then she'd like pull it up on the board with like colored markers and she'd be like, just like, watch me do it. Don't take notes. And we'll just like talk about it. Like she'd be like, imagine you just went here and you just like, we're this far away from this. Like that's the distance that we're talking about. And then I'd have like a picture in my head and I was like, oh, I can imagine what that Ferris wheel looks like. Oh, I'm standing here. And she's like, yeah, now you just have to like measure and like, it's fine. We'll just like use these colors to do that. And then I'd copy it down after. it was like she was like a magician. Like that's how I felt at the beginning. I was like, I don't know how you, it's crazy. I've had so many tutors and I've only had a few that like, are really stand out to me. So it really matters. I think having someone that you can like be on the same wavelength as, as well.

Vanessa Vakharia: 15:56

so often when we think of like, we need to make math interesting, we're thinking we've gotta do like something crazy, like take them to a carnival and put them on a Ferris wheel, and you're like, you're like, no, what I'm hearing and tell me if I'm You're kind of like, she just spoke to me like a normal person.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 16:13

yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:14

It the same question, but she was just like talking, and I've always found that actually that makes one of the biggest differences is like, it almost feels like when you go to math class, you're suddenly expected to like act a different way and speak in ways you wouldn't normally speak. And like all like disconnected from what's going on and can't like. Like you're an intel. We are all intelligent people who like think and reason all the time, right? Like we do that. But when you're expected to like speak in words you wouldn't normally speak in, in a certain cadence and don't talk to anyone and like you know, it's like you can't use your thinking center

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 16:47

Yeah. I was like, this is not working for

Vanessa Vakharia: 16:49

Yeah. Okay. So, so one of the things she did was that is just like speak to you in normal language, kind of translate the stuff. Was there anything else you can think of she did that really like made that difference?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 16:59

It also we, it wasn't just like she was like a tutor. It's also like, I don't know if I came five minutes early or if I stayed five minutes late. Like we'd also just like talk about life. Like it wasn't just like walking into the, walking into the studio, getting the work done. Thank you. Goodbye. It was like I had a relationship with her as well. So it was like enough that I knew she wasn't like my friend or anything, but it wasn't the same as like my math teacher, where it was just like handing me the work, gave me the mark, and that was it. Like, it was like, I wanna be able to talk to you and tell me, tell you exactly what I don't understand. Like I don't feel embarrassed to say to her like, I really actually don't understand anything you just said, but with my teacher, it's like you have to pretend. It's like, oh, I don't want her to like judge me or be like, uh, I explained it four times already. It's like, no, I just need you to like say it like normal, like sometimes I talk to ChatGPT and I'm like, just talk to me like it's a 16-year-old girl who has no idea what this is.

Vanessa Vakharia: 17:52

Yes.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 17:53

And it's like immediately I get it. And then that reiterates during my test. I'm like, it's like when Alex said this, and then it like triggers something in my head and I'm like, oh, all I have to do is measure that to that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:05

And you know, like everything you're saying is corroborated by research. I don't know if you know like, it's really interesting, all these things you're saying. It's like that emotional piece. Often our memory is more associated with emotions, right? Like our, so the emotions can trigger memories and negative emotions like trigger negative memories or they prevent us from remembering things. So like there's a lot of cool stuff that you're saying that I'm like, oh my God, this is such a practical application of what we like kind of know to be true. But you're saying it in a way that's like so useful for teachers to hear so thank you, and I'm, I think one thing that keeps coming up is you're like, there needs to be this connection. I need to feel like you're exactly what you said. You're like, I don't need to feel like we're best friends, but I need to feel like safe enough to tell you that I don't understand something.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 18:52

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 18:53

What do you think in a classroom, in your experience, like thinking about your previous teachers or classroom experiences has not made you feel that way?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 19:02

Um, I think like this year for example, when I had like questions where I didn't understand, it was like my teacher, and I bet this is very rare with teachers because I've never had experience before. She just like got to a point where she was just like, I could tell she was annoyed and she was just like. And she'd get like, she'd stand at my desk though, and like hover over like that. And I was like, it really helped if you like, pull up a chair and we sit next to each

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:26

Oh my God.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 19:26

And you reach over with your pencil and you just do that. But like with different color, it's like little I'm like, if you just sit there, and you look at me and you're like, don't worry. Like it's, it's fine. Like, we're just gonna, we're gonna figure it out. almost like she acts a little bit like, she's not like so much smarter than me. Like even at like, you know what I mean? Like, like act like we're both confused and we'll get through it together.

Vanessa Vakharia: 19:51

I'm literally freaky, I'm losing my mind. This is you, you just don't even understand how, like, I wanna be like Building Thinking Classrooms, you're gonna be like, what are you talking about? But there is so much out there now where we're like, again, like my whole thing is maththerapy.com/merch and my whole book is about these little things you can do.'Cause, we're human beings. We can tell, someone's standing up and hovering above us, it sends a very specific message. So like, yeah, it might be a little thing, but that little thing is a huge thing. And guess what? Because it's such a little thing, it's pretty simple to fix.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 20:21

Yeah, exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:22

You're not asking for like 10 hours of afterschool time. You're like, could you just like get down to my level? Could you just like tell me it's gonna be okay?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 20:29

It's like when like there's a little kid and you're like talking to'em, but you're so much taller than them. It's like everyone gets down on their level. It's like, why did that have to change? Like when you're hovering over me, it's like, I don't want you to leave. Just stay. Because like it's like I feel like you're in a rush to leave. It's like just sit down, even if it's for one minute, it just makes me like not think, oh my God, she's annoyed. She wants to leave. It's like, I can actually focus on what you're saying for that one

Vanessa Vakharia: 20:51

Oh my God, this is so good. Why do you think, like, you know, you kind of started at the beginning of this and you were like, you know, math class is this thing we all hate, like we all are confused. Why do you think that is? Like, why is it, like math above all other classes? Why does it just suck for so many students?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 21:08

I think it's like something that we all kind of have in our head. It's like math is hard, like it's kind of like, and then we almost sort of like believe that

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:17

Is it hard,

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 21:19

not when you get it. Like that's the biggest thing. It's like it's not hard. It wasn't hard this

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:24

Right.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 21:25

I think I only got like really stressed out about it a few times. Like I really, it was like I, if I did feel stressed out, I went and I talked about it with my tutor for an hour and then I left and I was like, it's fine. Like it was never that big of an issue until I figured out how I could fix

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:42

So why does everyone think it's hard, do you think?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 21:45

I don't think it's being like taught the right

Vanessa Vakharia: 21:47

Yeah.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 21:47

you put like these random numbers and all these things on the board and there's no context. It's just like a problem and you have to just like fix it, but there's no context. Everyone's just trying to solve something that's just like not being given the right way.

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:02

What was it like growing up with a mom who dislikes math so much? Did that affect you at all? I'm curious.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 22:08

I think she was also just like at the beginning, like if all my teachers are like, you know, like it's not her like strong suit. I think she also was like, just pass. Like just pass. That also got into her, so then it was like not only at home, but at school, like it was both. But then the second I started to do well, she really, she did what my teachers did and she gave me like a higher expectation. You just got a 90 on this one quiz, even though you got 50 on the others, that one 90, like you can do it. Like, it's not impossible. And so then ever since, like those little things of like doing well, um, the standards were higher and she, she changed as I did, like when she saw

Vanessa Vakharia: 22:47

Okay, but what, like, Taylor, this is such a crazy story because most people in your situation where your parents kind of, well, meaningly are like, yeah, don't worry about it. Um, and your teachers are like, yeah, don't worry about it. Would have given up, did.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 23:05

know.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:07

It's so wild.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 23:09

I think it's also just going to a new school and being surrounded by people like who actually cared. Like seeing people in my class that were like, getting it. I was like, oh, like I want, it was like almost like a little bit of jealousy. I was like, I want that. Like, I want that. I felt jealous. Like it was just like a normal teenage feeling of jealousy. But I was like, jealous that they were doing so well in math. So, and then they'd be like, oh, what'd you get on your quiz? And I was like, 50. And they were like, oh, I got a 90. And I was like, they never asked me for help. Like, I was like, no, I want you to ask. Like I, I wanna be that.

Vanessa Vakharia: 23:41

Huh. Okay. This is actually leads to a question I wasn't gonna ask, but I'm so curious. What's the vibe when it comes to, like, girls being good at math at your school? Is it like, cool.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 23:53

Yeah, there's a lot of girls that are actually really good at math, but I don't think that people would expect it like I see in the classroom. Like if someone has a question, they automatically go to like the boy who's smarter at math, even though the girl has better marks. She's more like humble. Like I always noticed, I was like girls, like all my friends are very smart, but they aren't in your face about it. But I feel like when a guy has good marks, he's like, yep, I just got a 90. Everyone look at it, everyone look. But it's like the girl who has a hundred is just like sitting there. She's just like, subtle.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:24

Why do you think that is? Why are the, are the girls chilling humble or they are, or do they not want people to know they have a good mark or something else entirely?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 24:35

I think they just don't need like the reassurance that like, I think they have it in themself. They're just like, I don't need to like go and tell everybody, so that I've got these good marks and stuff. Like they just do it and then they just like, ha, they just like get the highest mark at graduation. Like it's, it was, it was girls. I went to the graduation this year. The highest marks that the school were all girls.

Vanessa Vakharia: 24:54

I cannot believe your mama's cutting me off in five minutes. There's so much to discuss here. Okay, that, I am really glad you just told me that because. I think we all need, we all need to hear this. This is interesting. I'm just gonna leave it there. I'm not even gonna say anything about it. I just think this is a very interesting point. I, I have to move on now because I'm getting cut off soon. I wanna know if growing up believing that you could only just pass math and your teachers sort of not believing in you, did it affect you in other areas of your life or your sense of self-confidence or anything, or not really?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 25:24

Yes. I can like remember like being in school and just like, it kind of affected how I thought people would look at me and it affected my confidence with school, like in all subjects. Even though I was good at like other things, I was just like, maybe I just don't wanna just be bad at math. And I thought it was just like. Every time I looked at my homework, I was like, I don't get it. But I looked at it for like 10 seconds with no help and I was like, I don't get it. Like, I just can't do it. even sometimes I catch myself, like, I can't, I can't, I can't. I can't, I can't. When that happens, it's just like, shut off. So it's just like when you are, when I don't get it, I'm just like, I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. I can't do it. And then I just like wouldn't do it. It's just like a mind thing. I, I honestly believe it's all in my, it's all like everyone can do it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 26:06

You heard it here. Taylor says, oh my god, Taylor, you're gonna become a math teacher. I hope. And pray. Honestly, I just think that'd be the best fucking plot twist because really it, you know, there are, you're saying it's all in your head and I wanna like validate you, but also like, counterpoint. First of all, you've had so many negative math experiences that is not in your head. It's not in your head that, uh, teachers literally said to you, don't even worry about it. Like they basically said to you, we don't believe you can do it, so don't bother trying. That's what it says when you tell a student, don't worry about it. You have other things you're good at. We are being well meaning, but the message is clear and you've said it. The message you got was, you don't even think I can do it. So that is not. That's true and that happened. The interesting, the stuff that is in our head is negative self-talk, right? Like that idea of I can't, I can't, I can't. But again, you got that message from somewhere, you know, you got that message and now those voices have turned into your own voice. But what's cool is once it's in our head and it's not external, we can change it. Right? Like things like you noticing being like, okay, I am saying I can't to myself. Like I can change that framework or like. Thoughts are not things like they're literally thoughts, so maybe they're not true. There is a lot we can do around it, but I think the thing you're really, really right about is like we call these things like limiting beliefs, right? Like things that we're just like, Nope. Like that's the thing I can't do. The cool thing is just about our brains and the fact that we have neural pathways that grow and change is we can rewire them. So just because you don't understand math today, or you didn't last year, it doesn't mean you never can. And you're proving that, right? Like, but it's taken like such. I think it's crazy and incredible how reflective you've been and how able you've been to be like, okay, like just the way we're talking about this and you're reflecting on like what motivated you and what inspired you to keep trying despite the fact that like you're getting the messages from basically every adult in your life that they don't believe in you. That is wild.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 27:59

Yeah.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:00

That's really wild. And now that you've kind of like discovered this superpower, let's say, that you've always had, but now it's like coming out, does this change the way you feel about what you can do like in the world? I.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 28:12

Yes. I feel more like capable of doing different things, or when someone says like, oh, you can't do that. I'm just like, watch me. Like I can do that. Don't like, I don't need you to tell me I can do it anymore. Even though it would've been helpful when I was growing up to have somebody be like, no, you can. But it's like now, like I've kind of built it myself where I'm like, wanna do it just because you told me I can't do it. And I'm like, that reattaches to the fact that they always told me I couldn't. So it's like I did it just because you told me not to. And like that's an actual thing too.

Vanessa Vakharia: 28:42

Yeah. That's an actual thing too. I think you know, the haters and the doubt like. It's there to bring you down, but it actually fires you up to like prove someone wrong, you know? But I'm also like, sorry that you've had to go through years of that because that doesn't really feel good. Not everyone would react that way. A lot of people would just be like, oh, I guess I can't do it then. And also that's a lot of work for you to do as a 16-year-old to have to like overcome all that. But look at you now and that's amazing.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 29:06

Thank

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:06

So tell us, will you, you do not have to take math now, you are done, or will you be taking math in grade 12?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 29:13

I will be taking math next

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:14

Oh my God. Tell us more why, why, which one? How.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 29:18

I'm just like all this work this year, I feel like I don't want it to go into nothing. Like I may as well just see if I can do even better next year. Right?

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:28

and now, so in Ontario, you pick your top six courses to submit the grades to, to get into like university. does the fact that you need a high grade, like is the whole grading thing something that gets to you or you're not really worried about it? I.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 29:42

I'm not really worried about it because I feel like I can, I feel like it won't be an issue, like I feel like I can do it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 29:50

if you were gonna speak directly to another student or someone listening to this podcast, there's a lot of adults who are listening to this podcast who are like, I'm just not a math person. I couldn't do it. What's one thing you would say to them? One piece of advice. Like anything.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 30:02

I think just change your perspective on it. Like you don't have to think about it as like math. Like you can like change your idea about it and you're still doing math, but it doesn't have to be so challenging and so scary. Just yeah, like build a relationship with it almost.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:19

Oh my God, I love that. Build a relationship with it. And there are things you can do. If you're listening to this and you're so inspired by Taylor's story, which I am right now, I want you to go download Duolingo math. They're not sponsoring us, but they should. But that is one way, like Taylor's saying just like kind of low stakes, like just like start doing it and don't think of it as this big thing. Duolingo has this new thing where they've added math as a language you can learn. It's three minutes a day. It's like start super basic and you can just start doing it in a low stake stakes way, build a relationship with it, a relationship where you're hanging out with it for three minutes a day and see what happens. So Taylor and I are inviting you to go build a relationship with math on your own terms.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 30:56

exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia: 30:57

what happens. See it.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 30:59

See what happens.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:01

Taylor, you're so cool. Honestly, this is the best I could talk to you forever. so often we are like, math feels pointless. A lot of the stuff, your learning feels pointless. But one thing that I think is so important is I think that math is a gateway where you learn things like perseverance and resilience and like, problem solving. Like how to solve a problem that really feels like you can't solve it, and you're kind of demonstrating that, like those skills are what you have learned. Those skills are way more important than like the fucking quadratic equation. You're gonna, you're already showing, you're taking those skills into the rest of your life. You're now like, yeah, what, what can't I do? Like I'll prove you wrong.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 31:36

Yeah, exactly.

Vanessa Vakharia: 31:37

So I think that's just amazing and so inspiring. I'm so glad we met and I have to ask you two questions I always ask everyone on the podcast. Question number one. If there's one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be? Pick one thing.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 31:52

the teacher's way of approaching it better and not coming off as so scary about it and just making it seem like it's we're gonna do it together. I think we're gonna get through this course

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:02

I love it. And number two, what if someone's listening to this podcast and they're like, oh, that story was so inspiring, but I'm different because I'm just not a math person. What would you say?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 32:11

like I think that anybody can be a math person if they really try. Like it's you have to find the way that you can do it.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:16

I love it.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 32:17

And that's different for everyone.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:19

You rock. Thank you so much. I cannot wait to watch you grow mathematically next year. Maybe you can pop in and like tutor some kids. Let's see what happens. Just a little mindset coach,

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 32:28

Let's see. Exactly. Maybe.

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:31

Thanks Taylor.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 32:33

Thank you so

Vanessa Vakharia: 32:34

Bye. I still can't get over how much wisdom Taylor just like casually dropped. Like maybe the kids are all right and we really do have some hope for the future. Seriously, the fact that Taylor didn't give up on math. Or herself, even though she was basically set up to fail, is something I'm still processing. Like the system literally told her that math just wasn't her thing. She shouldn't bother trying too hard. Her friends just were naturally better than her. Like she should just basically give up any hope of getting anything above the bare minimum of passing. Like what kind of messaging is that for a kid? I have two major takeaways from this conversation. First, Taylor could have listened to all that messaging and she could have quite understandably, just given up. She didn't, she decided that if her friends could do it, so could she, and she was determined not to give up on math or herself. But the second takeaway is that she wouldn't have been able to turn things around without the right support. She needed the trust and safety to tell her teachers she didn't understand something without feeling she was like a burden or a nuisance. She needed her tutor to treat her like a real complex human, not just a cardboard box being rushed down an educational assembly line. And she needed her parents to be supportive and encouraging while celebrating the little wins and not putting unreasonable pressure on her. I could go on and on about what I loved about this episode, but you just listened to it and you don't need to hear from me anymore. I wanna hear from you. Text the podcast, by hitting the link in your show notes. Send me an email at vanessa@themathgu.ca or dm me on Instagram at themathguru. Links all of those are in the episode description. Finally, make sure you're subscribed to the podcast feed because next week we are celebrating a truly shocking milestone, the hundredth episode of Math Therapy. We're going to be reflecting on the wild ride we've been on since starting the show back in 2019 and talking about what lies ahead for Math Therapy, now that we've moved to a weekly format. And of course, a reminder that Math Therapy is hosted by me, Vanessa Vakharia, produced and edited by David Kochberg, and the music you hear is by me and David's band Goodnight Sunrise.​So we're gonna wrap up with the final two questions. Oh my God. Is your mom sitting right next to you, like waiting for me to be finished? Oh my God, just glaring at me. Okay.

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 34:53

love her. It's due at three. She says it's due at

Vanessa Vakharia: 34:56

Okay. Okay. Question number one. If there was one thing you could change about the way math, oh my God. Who's walking in the room now?

Taylor Telfer-Thompson: 35:03

A dog.

Vanessa Vakharia: 35:03

If there's, if there's one thing you could change about the way math is taught in schools, what would it be?